AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing

My Dreams shirts arrived in the mail today. Unfortunately, it seems I have pushed woot's printing process to the limits, as they did not exactly turn out as I expected. While this may hurt potential sales, I think it's only fair to show you guys how things came out on fabric.

The original design called for a shade of Pantone Black that had a nice green tinge that went well with the subdued blue and red:


I allowed woot to color-match the Black, as I figured it likely wouldn't show up on a black shirt. They chose Cool Gray (10C, I think), which came out really bright, and eliminated most of the separation between the fairy and background. The image has been adjusted to show a realistic depiction of the shirt under normal light:


The little boy did not fare well either. He came out a little more orange than expected, and the density of fine lines became vivid, solid blocks of ink:



The same can be seen in the little girl on the unicorn, but she came out a little better. The coloring was good:



Also, the dream dust didn't all quite make it onto the shirt either. I guess some of the dots were a little too small for the silkscreen; only about half of the ones in that image got inked in.

So there you have it, What Dreams Are Made Of, on fabric. I'd have to say my biggest issue is with the choice of Cool Gray as a background behind the fairy, as it's hard to tell she's even there unless you look closely.

At least the little boy in the corner came out well.

  • Alvin

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

AlvinPing wrote:My Dreams shirts arrived in the mail today. Unfortunately, it seems I have pushed woot's printing process to the limits, as they did not exactly turn out as I expected.



Sorry to see that, Alvin. I know the sting of a printing that didn't come out like you expected. I still can't look at Dragontine's Day without cringing. It was my own fault for making poor color choices and not using Pantone, so I don't blame Woot. But even though I couldn't stand the way it looked, for some reason some people still really liked it. I'm sure it will be the same with What Dreams Are Made Of.

Best of luck in future contests.

wizard7926


quality posts: 4 Private Messages wizard7926

I'm also sorry about the print job, Alvin

The design is beautiful, and so is the print -- but I mean, there might be only so much we can expect from a still-fledgling shirtprinting company, right?

They've got maybe half a year's experience.. it's hard to blame them for some misprinting, especially of something so delicate and intricate!

Anyway.. I know they've got the potential, and it'll show as they get more experience, IMO.

[MOD: No advertising please]

klswoot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages klswoot
wizard7926 wrote:I'm also sorry about the print job, Alvin

The design is beautiful, and so is the print -- but I mean, there might be only so much we can expect from a still-fledgling shirtprinting company, right?

They've got maybe half a year's experience.. it's hard to blame them for some misprinting, especially of something so delicate and intricate!

Anyway.. I know they've got the potential, and it'll show as they get more experience, IMO.



Sorry about the print quality Alvin. (TGentry! I totally forgot that you did Dragontine's Day too! WOW! You really are on a roll!)

I was actually very nervous about the printing for this design.The soft hues and the intricate details worried me given the screenprinting. I don't know that much about the screenprinting process, but is it possible that many of your most intricate lines were simply too small for the screens? As a result, you got thicker lines that looks like they bleed together? Maybe someone with a better knowledge of screenprinting can provide us with details. This would certainly be useful for future derby designs.

James' designs seemed to use printing small pixel widths, but I don't recall him having any issues with printing.

Curious to know what other more experienced tshirt designers can add about what may have happened with your shirt.

Sorry again Alvin. It's nice that you posted the pictures to let people know. Can you post a full-sized image of the design on the shirt. It would be nice to see it in it's entirety.

jbedwar1


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jbedwar1
klswoot wrote:Sorry again Alvin. It's nice that you posted the pictures to let people know. Can you post a full-sized image of the design on the shirt. It would be nice to see it in it's entirety.



yeah i was really surprised you didnt post a full shirt picture ... that was what i was really looking for myself.

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing

Full shirt. Higher placement would've been nice


Closeup:


As for the slikscreens... maybe they're not 300tpi (threads per inch... hehe)

  • Alvin

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU

I think woot has a lot of trouble with very intricate scans. You'll note in the "post your shirts" thread that Livetraced Moon and OiCat also had VERY sketchy executions as compared to what they were supposed to look like. Woot can do a lot with their capabilities, and shirt after shirt proves just that, but applications like this are still outside their capacities for high-quality prints.

SailorButterfly


quality posts: 14 Private Messages SailorButterfly

Even though the lines didn't come quite right, it still looks good except for the fact that the fairy blends in with the background. The background was a bad color choice on woot's part. :-(

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Most Awesome Butterfly-Sailor Hybrid on Woot"

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing
SailorButterfly wrote:Even though the lines didn't come quite right, it still looks good except for the fact that the fairy blends in with the background. The background was a bad color choice on woot's part. :-(



I agree, if the background were darker than their chosen Cool Gray 10C, the shirt would definitely be passable. I'd be less concerned with the blocks of ink on the little boy and unicorn-girl near the fairy, as well, as they are but a small portion of the shirt.

If you look closely, most the detail in the fairy did in fact get printed. Unfortunately, it's so fine that it just becomes a jumbled mess against the similarly-colored background:

  • Alvin

responseataol


quality posts: 1 Private Messages responseataol
AlvinPing wrote:I agree, if the background were darker than their chosen Cool Gray 10C, the shirt would definitely be passable. I'd be less concerned with the blocks of ink on the little boy and unicorn-girl near the fairy, as well, as they are but a small portion of the shirt.

If you look closely, most the detail in the fairy did in fact get printed. Unfortunately, it's so fine that it just becomes a jumbled mess against the similarly-colored background:



ive steered clear of shirts w/ complicated designs for this reason - woots printing is c.r.a.p.- and ive been burned by a few of their shirts - not to mention some "odd" residue on the insides of a few of my shirts...i stick to simple designs now

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing
responseataol wrote:ive steered clear of shirts w/ complicated designs for this reason - woots printing is c.r.a.p.



They've been getting better, though. I mean, look at Cho's shirts; he used a lot of thin width lines (albeit thicker than the ones I used) and they came out great. I think there's just a minimum pixel width that will faithfully reproduce on a silkscreen that I've yet to find.

The biggest problem here in my opinion is the background being too light, which caused the details that were reproduced to only get lost in the cloud.

Oh well

  • Alvin

jimiyo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jimiyo
klswoot wrote:Curious to know what other more experienced tshirt designers can add about what may have happened with your shirt.



does woot have like an inhouse separations artist?
black shirts... are difficult... though... still this one isnt that hard. no gradients.

black shirts need a white underbase... (a hit of white under any colors so colors that go straight to a dark shirt doesnt dull out)

that why you see some spots with the red and blue that are lighter... somebody put some underbase too thick under there...

on this shirt, they should have mixed a union (thick opaque) reddish blueish and greenish, and went straight to shirt. but maybe they dont mix many colors. unless theyve been around, they wouldnt have obscure colors, unless they mix. these look like pantone in the 7000. very slightly toned colors.

as far as details.... they might be using some really low meshes. meshes usually go from like 60 to 350, the lower the number, more ink gets pushed through, so the details get all mushy and blurry.

theres a ton of things that could have been wrong... separations could have been done improperly too. the art looks like clip art... and even with clip art, if you didnt start with crisp vector, its difficult to get a clean sep. most of the time the clip art is dirty with errant pixels everywhere...

they also could have gotten lazy and the print boss might have not gotten the proper reference material from the sep artist.

yeah... so it could have been a lot of things.

wow, i just wasted 10 minutes of my life. trying to feel good about myself because i have speciallized knowledge, but since it was unskillfully explained, no one learned anything except im a blabber...

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing
jimiyo wrote:on this shirt, they should have mixed a union (thick opaque) reddish blueish and greenish, and went straight to shirt. but maybe they dont mix many colors. unless theyve been around, they wouldnt have obscure colors, unless they mix. these look like pantone in the 7000. very slightly toned colors.



The original palette called for 417C, 432C, 438C, 442C, 7541C (which got changed to White), and Black 3C (which got changed to Cool Gray 10C). In terms of color accuracy, 438C seemed to fare the worst (normally a subdued faded maroon, it registered as orange on the shirt).

if you didnt start with crisp vector, its difficult to get a clean sep. most of the time the clip art is dirty with errant pixels everywhere



Yep this is part of the cleanup process I do whenever using art. I'd say it was cleaned up pretty well; sure there are tiny areas of detail, but no errant pixels or jaggies in sight. Here's a 100% crop of the 300dpi print-ready:


wow, i just wasted 10 minutes of my life. trying to feel good about myself because i have speciallized knowledge, but since it was unskillfully explained, no one learned anything except im a blabber...



Hehe. I learned!

  • Alvin

fablefire


quality posts: 24 Private Messages fablefire

I learned!

I'm now also fearing for my shirt's life. D:

superspryte


quality posts: 21 Private Messages superspryte

Volunteer Moderator

tgentry wrote:Sorry to see that, Alvin. I know the sting of a printing that didn't come out like you expected. I still can't look at Dragontine's Day without cringing. It was my own fault for making poor color choices and not using Pantone, so I don't blame Woot. But even though I couldn't stand the way it looked, for some reason some people still really liked it. I'm sure it will be the same with What Dreams Are Made Of.

Best of luck in future contests.



*raises hand* I love Dragontine's Day. ^_^

w: 7 | t.w: 1 | h.w: 1 | tg.w: 0 | sp.w: 0 | a.w: 0 | k.w: 0 | s.w: 15 | w.w: 15 | so.w: 2

artulo


quality posts: 13 Private Messages artulo
jimiyo wrote:does woot have like an inhouse separations artist?
black shirts... are difficult... though... still this one isnt that hard. no gradients.

black shirts need a white underbase... (a hit of white under any colors so colors that go straight to a dark shirt doesnt dull out)

that why you see some spots with the red and blue that are lighter... somebody put some underbase too thick under there...

on this shirt, they should have mixed a union (thick opaque) reddish blueish and greenish, and went straight to shirt. but maybe they dont mix many colors. unless theyve been around, they wouldnt have obscure colors, unless they mix. these look like pantone in the 7000. very slightly toned colors.

as far as details.... they might be using some really low meshes. meshes usually go from like 60 to 350, the lower the number, more ink gets pushed through, so the details get all mushy and blurry.

theres a ton of things that could have been wrong... separations could have been done improperly too. the art looks like clip art... and even with clip art, if you didnt start with crisp vector, its difficult to get a clean sep. most of the time the clip art is dirty with errant pixels everywhere...

they also could have gotten lazy and the print boss might have not gotten the proper reference material from the sep artist.

yeah... so it could have been a lot of things.

wow, i just wasted 10 minutes of my life. trying to feel good about myself because i have speciallized knowledge, but since it was unskillfully explained, no one learned anything except im a blabber...



I thought this was very insightful. Thanks!

Sorry you're disappointed with your printing, Alvin.

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing

The mediums came out a little better. My friend sent over a pic; it looks like the dream dust particles for the most part made it all through due to the larger silkscreen size. He didn't send any closeups, though, so it's hard to say whether the little boy or girl on unicorn came out any better.

But Cool Gray 10C is still Cool Gray 10C...

fablefire wrote:I'm now also fearing for my shirt's life. D:



As long as the colors weren't substituted it should turn out great

  • Alvin

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing

Here's a pic of the shirt printed with the larger silkscreen:


As you can see, the dream dust came out a lot better since the dots are bigger (in comparison to the layout used for the smaller shirts) and didn't ink-clog the screen. It's hard to see if the girl and boy look much better though

  • Alvin

Gumiho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Gumiho

So here's my question: Since the biggest problem seems to be the color change that came too close to the image on top of it, how does one solve that in the design stage? I know that woot has those templates with the sixteen(?) available colors, but I've seen a lot of designs (this included) that work outside of those colors. Is that the problem, or is there an extended palette that one can work from?

I hope those questions were clear. >.<

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing
Gumiho wrote:So here's my question: Since the biggest problem seems to be the color change that came too close to the image on top of it, how does one solve that in the design stage? I know that woot has those templates with the sixteen(?) available colors, but I've seen a lot of designs (this included) that work outside of those colors. Is that the problem, or is there an extended palette that one can work from?



Those templates are the Pantone equivalent for the shirt colors that woot has available. For your designs, however, you can use any color within the Pantone Solid Coated swatches. They'll match up pretty well for the most part.

To avoid color substitutions, make sure you use colors that aren't too close to the color of the shirt itself. The reason mine was substituted was because the dark "green" was actually Pantone Black 3C. On a black shirt, however, it wouldn't have stood out at all like it does on a computer monitor.

  • Alvin

Gumiho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Gumiho
AlvinPing wrote:Those templates are the Pantone equivalent for the shirt colors that woot has available. For your designs, however, you can use any color within the Pantone Solid Coated swatches. They'll match up pretty well for the most part.

To avoid color substitutions, make sure you use colors that aren't too close to the color of the shirt itself. The reason mine was substituted was because the dark "green" was actually Pantone Black 3C. On a black shirt, however, it wouldn't have stood out at all like it does on a computer monitor.



Oh, I see. I thought maybe it was a design issue with woot's palette. I didn't realize that their template was just the shirt colors. I thought that is was that conversion that threw it off. It's quite obvious from your design comp that that image was a dark green, it's a shame that woot went so light with it.

I'll definately take your advice to heart. Thanks, and I'm sorry for your misprinting.

Failoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Failoan
Gumiho wrote:Oh, I see. I thought maybe it was a design issue with woot's palette. I didn't realize that their template was just the shirt colors. I thought that is was that conversion that threw it off. It's quite obvious from your design comp that that image was a dark green, it's a shame that woot went so light with it.

I'll definately take your advice to heart. Thanks, and I'm sorry for your misprinting.



I believe it came out as gray because alvin feared it would not show up. So alvin requested the green color substituted with that gray. He just did not expect it to come out like this.

So one way to do things is to request the colors you want to be used.

The second way is just sent the print ready file and let woot color match it themselves. They do a good job at it. I believe they mix their own colors if necessary to match the color in your design to the best of their abilities.

So to answer your question in a nut shell. No, woot has an extensive color palette, and if you aren't sure which color to use, let the experts at woot color match the paint for you.

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing
Failoan wrote:alvin requested the green color substituted with that gray. He just did not expect it to come out like this [...] just sent the print ready file and let woot color match it themselves. They do a good job at it.



I did not specifically request Cool Gray 10C as a substitution. In fact, I did not request any color in specific, requesting they match the colors themselves if they felt it was necessary. And they did, and they chose Cool Gray 10C.

  • Alvin

vishneda


quality posts: 0 Private Messages vishneda
Failoan wrote:The second way is just sent the print ready file and let woot color match it themselves. They do a good job at it.


I disagree on this. There are a few notable misses, including BreakfasTopo and some of they early editions of Cool Breeze. Dependence Day and Go Rock, Beat Paper also came out very subtle, moreso than the designers probably intended. Maybe on the whole Woot is getting better at it, but it is still very much up to the designer to match swatches and think about how the colors are going to contrast in print. This minimizes the risk of a bad print.

SailorButterfly


quality posts: 14 Private Messages SailorButterfly
fablefire wrote:I'm now also fearing for my shirt's life. D:



Speaking of your shirt...might wanna change your Vote link in your sig to a Buy link taking them to where it can be bought! ;-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Most Awesome Butterfly-Sailor Hybrid on Woot"

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing
vishneda wrote:I disagree on this. There are a few notable misses, including BreakfasTopo and some of they early editions of Cool Breeze. Dependence Day and Go Rock, Beat Paper also came out very subtle, moreso than the designers probably intended. Maybe on the whole Woot is getting better at it, but it is still very much up to the designer to match swatches and think about how the colors are going to contrast in print. This minimizes the risk of a bad print.



It almost seems that if you use subtle colors in your design and tell woot not to color-match, they wont, but then it won't come out as it does on a monitor. If you allow them to match, their choices may not always come out ideal.

What's odd is that the woot-published shirt comp for my Dreams shirt already has Cool Gray 10C replacing Pantone Black 3C. It looks okay on my computer monitor, with a decent amount of seperation between it and the fairy. I allowed them to color match at their discretion, which they did (and which looked fine in the image). When it came to print, however, Cool Gray 10C is very bright, as you can see in the images posted above.

Perhaps it's an issue of certain inks drying into a different color than expected... who knows.

  • Alvin

Failoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Failoan
AlvinPing wrote:I did not specifically request Cool Gray 10C as a substitution. In fact, I did not request any color in specific, requesting they match the colors themselves if they felt it was necessary. And they did, and they chose Cool Gray 10C.



Oh I see, sorry for my misunderstanding. xP

Woot, has a wide selection, but still its limited. I should of said, most of the time it comes out well.

fablefire


quality posts: 24 Private Messages fablefire
SailorButterfly wrote:Speaking of your shirt...might wanna change your Vote link in your sig to a Buy link taking them to where it can be bought! ;-)



Oh yeah! Thanks. I'll get on it.

AlvinPing


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AlvinPing

So it looks like I just barely made it past the first day of reckoning, so the shirt is still up if anyone wants to give it a go.

Since woot still has the silkscreens, I think it'd be interesting if they did a test print where Pantone Black 3C wasn't replaced, to see if it'd even show on the shirt, and if it did, whether it would look better or worse than the current incarnation.

You think they could hook me up? You know... for future design reference...

  • Alvin

bpr2


quality posts: 181 Private Messages bpr2

This shirt needs to be "classiced" so that it can be printed better

that was fun while it lasted!

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
bpr2 wrote:This shirt needs to be "classiced" so that it can be printed better



I'm so glad this is a joke.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
bpr2 wrote:This shirt needs to be "classiced" so that it can be printed better



The remix should also be drawn by hand instead of being just a bunch of public domain clip-art slapped together