AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU

Dear woot. If you wish to censor this again, please have the decency to inform me of why... If you feel it's off topic, I'll put it in EBW. If you feel it's simply in bad form, I'd question your motives.

Hello, wooters. I would like to ask you all to band together in solidarity for something which I feel is incredibly important to the integrity of this entire site. It appears that a certain derby entrant and past winner will be very likely taking a third trophy this week. Generally, this should be a great cause for celebration... multiple derby winners are proven to have a finger on the pulse of the site, and likely have the perseverance to withstand the pressures of the derby, the creativity to come back week after week, and the patience to accept their many failures. In this case, however, I feel that the potential winner is a disgrace to the shirt designing world, and woot should not allow his continued entrance. This thread is to lay out why.

We first met Mr. RobGlenn in the Cryptozoology derby. He submit a handful of simple designs, resonating with his perplexingly popular Tortle. Little was thought of the simplicity of the design at the design. He had similar success the next week with Midnight Poker, again with nothing really suspicious going on. So generally innocuous was he that when a debate sparked over his Dodo Appreciation shirt during the Time Travel Souvenir derby, most wooters sided with him that the engraving he used, while not his own, was fair game as the copyright was certainly up. He continued to submit shirts which were unremarkable save for their reasonable popularity and generally clean executions.

In time, however, he won a derby. Aaarrrgyle soon became one of woot's top selling shirts, with its pirate motif, something wooters seem unable to get enough of. However, while many people were turned off to the shirt for it's cliché content, others noticed it was even more derivative... Uneetee was selling a shirt of almost identical name (minus 2 "a"s) and, needless to say, identical concept. Woot was informed, but decided to print it anyway. Shortly after, he got a second printing, placing second in the "Make Up Your Own Holiday" derby with Hidden Message Day. Again, many maligned this idea as a case of not knowing when to give up (it was rejected twice before a version was allowed to stay in the race), but others were quizzical because this shirt relied on folding, like the back of a MAD magazine. It was a kitschy move to start with, but made all the more curious as the fold-in shirt, unique as it sounded, was far less unique at second glance. Not weeks prior to the derby, a threadless submission cropped up using a bunch of whimsical creatures who, when folded, created the word "WOW". Two wins in quick succession, both with unsettling similarities to work already submitted elsewhere, began opening up the floodgates.

The dodo shirt seemed less of an anomaly all of a sudden, and the first few simple successes felt more like clip-art than simply clean design. Looking back at past entries, his Tetris-block skull seemed more calculated. A number of designs featuring live-traces of photos seemed more intentional. By this point, woot had rejected at least one design for being too close to an existing copyright, with potential infringements on pac-man going ignored, and other rejections, while axed for derby-relevence, encrouching on likely copyrights from Microsoft and fisher price. Also, between wins, Mr. Glenn made the following comment over at shirtderbystats as regarded another, more blatant design thief: "It doesn't matter if you think it deserves to win or not... that's what the voters are for... and they're usually right, just look at the sell out times for the winners versus the second and third place shirts." There would have been enough there alone to make one question him.

By this point, many designers and shirt fans were onto him. His Forcible Peace got rejected after a lengthy discussion thread found any number of similar shirts, as well as proved the guns used were stock images. It's a very enlightening read, as it's not only one of the first prolonged discussions of Rob's tendency to rip off content, it also introduces the world to his "henchmen". Mr. Glenn, you see, has friends at woot who do his insulting and badgering for him, all the while maintaining a more gracious, taciturn, and innocent profile for himself. This was the general tone for most RobGlenn work until Trompe L'Oeil, which saw one shirt rejected for being too similar to existing shirts, while another was allowed to stay in the competition despite being incredibly similar to yet another threadless shirt. Most recently, he submitted this seahorse, similar to yet another threadless submission. The submission dates are identical, and it leads one to wonder if the idea really occured to two different people independently on the same day.

The same derby, however, spawned a debate regarding another of his major themes: clipart. His squid entry culled the main design from an old woodcut, seen here. We have yet to find Rob's clip-art stash, but whatever clipart he has purchased has likely given us the major bits of entries like Quit Hoping - Love is Dead, Get Lucky (ironically submit in a derby requiring all designs be clip-art free), and most everything he entered from the Lyrics Illustrated derby, where he seemed to slap a piece of clipart down, found a song title it could represent, and clicked the ol' submit button. It's mostly speculation as to his clip-art usage, as no one has yet ascertained what packages he owns and uses, but it's likely that if someone were to find out, we could easily use the files to trace all the way back to Tortle.

So this is the "designer" who is in the fog this week, with his Canadian Periodic Table. It should come as no surprise to you at this point that there is a Periodic Table shirt available on Threadless made up of food items. It should, however, come as a surprise that with so many questionable "inspirations", this one designer has managed to be able to continue to submit to the site after so many questionable entries. It is my hope that this petition will help expose him to more wooters, either leading to a strong blow to his voting base, or pressuring woot to do away with him for good. Allowing such a designer to continue to profit, or attempt to profit, at a place where he is well known for plagiarism is like keeping an employee known to steal from the company accounts, and we shouldn't allow it... there are too many talented designers on woot to allow a thief to profit. If you agree, please pledge your support here.

jamescho84


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jamescho84

I was a bit reluctant to respond to this until I looked at all the links. To say woot should "do away with him" is a bit harsh - but it's really disconcerting to see this kind of thing happening. Put yourself in the designers shoes - would you want someone from another site taking your ideas and banking off them there?

The rules at woot suggest that if the execution is different enough, and because concepts aren't protected, it's ok to have a design similar in concept to an existing one. But I think that rule was laid out so that if it is in coincidence that a particular design is similar-- or if it "adds" something that the original could not offer, it's ok. I think the evidence laid out here makes it pretty clear, he's taking advantage of that rule and submitting popular, proven concepts from another site.

I guess the question is, what keeps other entrants from doing the same thing? Could all these entries above be a coincidence? I hope out of principle that Woot takes a little more responsibility in rejecting these kinds of entries now and in the future.

Amach06


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Amach06

Long post but worth the read. Thanks for the info Adder, and great job backing up everything. Its quite interesting.

Well there is always next year....

klawrence


quality posts: 1 Private Messages klawrence

Well at least no one can say you're coming to the table unarmed.
I haven't been around long enough to have been aware of this for myself, but it seems as if you've proven your point.
I'm not sure about the long essay singling out out one person, but again, at least you are backing up your claim.
Nice work on the evidence gathering.

allawayr


quality posts: 0 Private Messages allawayr
AdderXYU wrote:His Forcible Peace got rejected ...



Just FYI:

Not sure where the mentioned entry is but this links to the same thing as the preceding shirtderbystats link.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU

Thank you! I will get on that ASAP

Wizard pointed out in the first thread (in case you didn't get to see it) that Rob ALSO took another threadless idea: my pants are too tight! Pack. Though I can't find the exact location of his rip, I recall the controversy (and don't think I could find the rip then, either, to be fair). The closest to the concept that I've seen, however, is Pilot, which to me isn't all that close, but has a more glaring issue: it's apparently based on the uniform for Star Wars Pilots, something woot has thusfar been unwilling to tangle with, yet something which was not rejected (odd in light of recent post deletions).

Rob likes his shirts that make the wearer look like they're wearing something else: 1 2. As does threadless: 1 2. To be honest, most sites like these sorts of things... they sell well because they're quick visual gags, and Rob is all about quick shots and selling. This said, Rob's attempts aren't rip-offs. They're just not overly original, which isn't favorable, but also is no crime.

What is odd about it, though, is that in the Canada derby, Rob's crony Gutsmasher77 pointed out that Artulo's Mountie Shirt (see fourth post) was similar to one already on sale. Which it was, though the other was available only in Kids sizes. That Gutsmasher would have seen it while "googling", implies that Rob and Co. do, in fact, google for similar ideas, which makes his succession of similarities that much more glaring. It's easy to let ones mind wander and presume that the googled result wasn't so much to make sure their idea wasn't taken, but was instead dug back up when Art took one of Rob's ideas, but that, admittedly, is only speculation based on prior knowledge.

Gutsmasher isn't without his own foibles, though. Along with attacking derby participants who dare call his boss into question (and often entries which are doing better than him) he has a bit of a legacy as well, coming into the derbies during Cryptozoology with Rob, and submitting a very similar styled Ninja-Argyle, similar, in fact, to the point where Rob may have designed both. He's also is no stranger to entry controversy, with a shirt rejected for being too similar to another in the Trompe L'Oeil derby, but that's hardly the biggest thing to note. In derby 26, he entered a Canascope, done in a style often used by entrant CheeseSandwich. While Cheese in no way owns the style, it was controversial because up until then, no one else was known for using that style even occasionally, and it was seen as an attempt to cash in on a previously proven popular idea. It became less coincidental when Cheese's next design was torn to shreds by a wooter who had never commented prior, and has since not commented again outside of a bevy of unintelligent rants within said thread, as if he existed solely to try and discredit this single design. It certainly leads one to wonder just how deep Rob's cabal goes.

shan24


quality posts: 3 Private Messages shan24

Ok I'm sorry I can't take it anymore. I get that you are finding similar shirts to the ones that he has submitted here. You could do that with a very high percentage of the shirts submitted to Woot. There are a million t-shirt designs out there, and this is bound to happen easily. I can understand raising it as a possibility, which you have obviously done in other forums, but to start a thread for the second time just to single out one person looks a little pathetic.

A case in point:

Now I haven't gone back to look through your other entries you have submitted to Woot but I would be very surprised if there weren't other, similar designs to the ones you have submitted, that exist out in the world. Do I think you "copied" off the above Hoser shirt from Cafepress? Probably not. But your line of reasoning applies to your own shirt here.

I love how you say RobGlenn likes to design shirts that make the wearer look as if they are wearing something else. That was the Trompe L'Oeil derby, for heavens sake. That was the whole point.

I think you are showing that you have no confidence in Woot's ability to run their own contest. Why don't you free up a lot of time for yourself and trust in the job Woot is doing? Conversely, you could always go start your own shirt site and hold your own contests and run them the way you think it should be done.

superspryte


quality posts: 21 Private Messages superspryte

Volunteer Moderator

AdderXYU wrote:*stuff but not the original thread topic post thing*


Okay, that's enough. Calling them cronies and trying to discredit someone for being a supporter is a bit rude. Then attributing things to Rob that may or may not have anything to do with him makes it more of a witch hunt. Make your points but don't get personal.

PS - This would be better suited to an email to woot instead of starting a hate thread. Regardless of your intention it will become that, and once it does no doubt it will end up being deleted by someone. Then your carefully crafted arguments won't amount to anything but deleted threads. You'll probably have more success with email.

PPS - Yes, this will become a hate thread. I changed the other post about it in fairness but here I feel it is appropriate to say it that way.

w: 7 | t.w: 1 | h.w: 1 | tg.w: 0 | sp.w: 0 | a.w: 0 | k.w: 0 | s.w: 15 | w.w: 15 | so.w: 2

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
shan24 wrote:Ok I'm sorry I can't take it anymore. I get that you are finding similar shirts to the ones that he has submitted here. You could do that with a very high percentage of the shirts submitted to Woot. There are a million t-shirt designs out there, and this is bound to happen easily. I can understand raising it as a possibility, which you have obviously done in other forums, but to start a thread for the second time just to single out one person looks a little pathetic.

A case in point:

Now I haven't gone back to look through your other entries you have submitted to Woot but I would be very surprised if there weren't other, similar designs to the ones you have submitted, that exist out in the world. Do I think you "copied" off the above Hoser shirt from Cafepress? Probably not. But your line of reasoning applies to your own shirt here.

I love how you say RobGlenn likes to design shirts that make the wearer look as if they are wearing something else. That was the Trompe L'Oeil derby, for heavens sake. That was the whole point.

I think you are showing that you have no confidence in Woot's ability to run their own contest. Why don't you free up a lot of time for yourself and trust in the job Woot is doing? Conversely, you could always go start your own shirt site and hold your own contests and run them the way you think it should be done.



My line of reasoning is along the lines of "fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me." I noted another entrant this week who was rejected for having a similar shirt concept. I accept that many shirt concepts are similar... plenty of designers have been rejected for just that. If we're going to nitpick, half the shirts this week should be axed for maple leaves... those were done to death in Summer To Fall, let alone on other sites. But we're not going to nitpick, because most wooters, even at their least creative, don't end up doing the same exact thing derby after derby. If you'd like to backtrack on my work, please, feel free. If you come up with a quarter as many similar and derivative pieces as Rob has put out there, bring out your own pitchforks. I won't put up a fight.

That is why Mr. Glenn is singled out. He has more questionable content than anyone else here, AND most of it is culled from big shirt sites, not Print-on-demand places like Cafepress. I'm not calling out Keyser for pretty much rehashing Threadless's operation shirt, nor you for anatomy test, which borrows highly from at least two previous derby entries, one being the long-printed GI Metro (pot, meet kettle). I'm calling out someone who has given us scads of questionable entries, and most with concepts unique enough that the existence of something similar is damning. I've done my research (enough to note that only one of the two "trompe l'oeil" shirts I mentioned there was from the derby of the same name, and that there are a number with that same name). If you think I am painted with the same brush, do yours, and while you do it, wear anatomy test with pride.

You are, however, correct. I am showing no confidence in woot to run their own contest. Rob isn't the only person to give us compromised entries that printed... he's just the most prominent. I am looking to woot to stop turning a blind eye. If they feel the need to take me out in the process, I don't much care. The site would be better without plagiarism, and my $10 will thank them even if I myself am unable.

Jack31081


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jack31081

While I've been around for some of this and missed other parts, I can say this.

First, derby entries should be judged on their own merits, not on the people creating them. How many rejections or questionable entries a person has had in the past should have no bearing on whether any single entry is valid or not.

Second, you need to leave the rejection decision making to woot. It's their site. It's their business. It's their legal department. If you think an entry is worthy of rejection, you inform woot and go about your business. If woot doesn't reject it, then you have a difference of opinion, but in the end, woot wins.

Third, don't knock live-tracing. 'Close Encounters of the 2-D Kind' used live-tracing for the trees ( free stock photos ). Mentioning that while trying to build an argument against someone only weakens said argument. It makes you sound like your main grievance isn't that he's stealing designs but that he's just not enough of an "artist" for you.

Fourth, some of your connections are kind of weak. The periodic table thing is a non-issue. There are periodic tables with all kinds of themes out there. Unless you find another Canadian periodic table, it doesn't count. Same with the hidden message shirt...the only similarity is that they both fold, and they both got that idea from Mad magazine, as you said yourself. You took a few genuine instances that would have made a really good argument (seahorse cowboy, arrgyle, hole in the torso) and then threw it away trying to throw the book at him.

Are there people that pilfer ideas from other sites around here? Unquestionably. Do some people do it often. I wouldn't bet against it. However, in the end, you have to either let woot do their job or find another site to frequent.

geekfactor12


quality posts: 11 Private Messages geekfactor12
shan24 wrote:I think you are showing that you have no confidence in Woot's ability to run their own contest. Why don't you free up a lot of time for yourself and trust in the job Woot is doing? Conversely, you could always go start your own shirt site and hold your own contests and run them the way you think it should be done.



Woot has printed at least three shirts with striking similarities to shirts designed at other sites. I'm speaking of Arrgyle, Hidden Message Day and FiveBucks. Of those, two are RobGlenn shirts, which is presumably why this forum post exists in the first place. It's not a great pattern, and it's in direct opposition to how Woot says they are running the site: "Woot tees feature exclusive, original designs that you can’t get anywhere else (hence the terms “exclusive” and “original”)."

I think all I want is for some consistency in how things are being enforced. If we have a derby where flying penguins and street signs mean an entry can be automatically rejected without warning, then why are the rules so loose sometimes with shirts that obviously already exist?

To me, Woot has made some great strides in making the derby a more fun place to compete and interact (occasional Best of derbies and no text derbies especially), but this area needs to be addressed if Woot has any interest in maintaining the stable of talent they already have competing, and especially if they want new people to stick around. Woot has been very cool about soliciting suggestions from the community in the past, and hopefully they'll take this into consideration as well.

Because Rob's hardly the only one benefiting from the lax rejections around here. Every derby we see people toss together shirts that exist in the dozens on CafePress, accessible with a simple google search. Only one of these has won in my memory (FiveBucks, how you taunt me) but a shocking amount of them have reached the top ten before it happened (Eh?). Something needs to change.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU

Gorgy, dear.

There's no speculation or conspiracy going on. It's well known that Gutsmasher and Q------whatever are rob's coworkers. If you wanted to read the post, which is why I made it public, you'd note as much being admitted in the Forcible Peace thread. You give me very little credit, sir... I haven't provided any speculation without having reason for it.

On the other hand, I have defended many other people who weren't Mr. Cho. If he seems to get special treatment, it is because people are more ignorant in affairs concerning him than anyone else. I am here in hopes that people with something to offer shirt-wise get their chance to offer it. James is pretty much the epitome of that at Woot. To -not- defend James would be idiotic, but to the same degree, I also don't praise him every time. His skill is always top-notch, but I've thus far bought exactly one Cho, out of well over 10 printed since I found woot. He's far and away not the only designer I've ever praised or defended. Facts are so much easier to work with, sir, and anyone who has read anything I've posted would know that. No critic slams artists in their field just because they haven't yet. They slam what is deserving, and praise similarly. You don't have to like his work, but if you can't appreciate his skill, you're ignorant of simple truths in design.

As for "friends" responding? Give it a day. It's easy to judge when the content has been aborted before the masses can view it.

Jack31081


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jack31081

geekfactor12, your "beef" is with woot itself, where it should be, given your grievances.

AdderXYU should be directing his opinions toward woot as well, but he's unfortunately chosen a personal vendetta against another member instead.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Jack31081 wrote:geekfactor12, your "beef" is with woot itself, where it should be, given your grievances.

AdderXYU should be directing his opinions toward woot as well, but he's unfortunately chosen a personal vendetta against another member instead.



Jack,

I agree that woot would be the best outlet for this. However, considering how many infractions have gone unnoticed over how many derbies have existed, how many tattle emails have gone in and done nothing, how often this designer's threads have become "find the infringement," I can't imagine I'd be saying anything new. This thread exists in hopes that people who didn't notice it before can see the history and figure it out themselves. I'm honestly fairly shocked this hasn't happened before, and more so that there is a defense of the designer's actions. woot has heard it... you and I both know they have. It's important that, if they won't do anything, people are able to learn for themselves. It's their potential fourth-place finish.

FearTheGorgon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages FearTheGorgon
AdderXYU wrote:Gorgy, dear.

There's no speculation or conspiracy going on. It's well known that Gutsmasher and Q------whatever are rob's coworkers. If you wanted to read the post, which is why I made it public, you'd note as much being admitted in the Forcible Peace thread. You give me very little credit, sir... I haven't provided any speculation without having reason for it.

On the other hand, I have defended many other people who weren't Mr. Cho. If he seems to get special treatment, it is because people are more ignorant in affairs concerning him than anyone else. I am here in hopes that people with something to offer shirt-wise get their chance to offer it. James is pretty much the epitome of that at Woot. To -not- defend James would be idiotic, but to the same degree, I also don't praise him every time. His skill is always top-notch, but I've thus far bought exactly one Cho, out of well over 10 printed since I found woot. He's far and away not the only designer I've ever praised or defended. Facts are so much easier to work with, sir, and anyone who has read anything I've posted would know that. No critic slams artists in their field just because they haven't yet. They slam what is deserving, and praise similarly. You don't have to like his work, but if you can't appreciate his skill, you're ignorant of simple truths in design.

As for "friends" responding? Give it a day. It's easy to judge when the content has been aborted before the masses can view it.



Yeah friends. Geekfactor, Cho, Jimiyo, Bluchez. I read the posts before they were deleted. You had no support beyond that circle. And I said nothing about defending Cho. I said you and your friends go around and start ripping apart entries that aren't done by your friendly circle. And as far as for all this 'evidence' you're presenting most of it's shakey at best. As I said last night I agreed he's done some questionable work. But you're piecing together connections to other designs shirts where there aren't any and it's not making RobGlenn look bad. Hidden message day is a good example. The idea of a foldable message isn't new. There are no monsters in RobGlenn's entry, the message is different. That's like saying all the entries that use an optical illusion are ripping someone off. Completely weak 'argument' as are 90% of the examples you posted. A lot of ammunition, but most of them blanks. Please just contact woot and then leave it alone. It's their site.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
FearTheGorgon wrote:A lot of ammunition, but most of them blanks. Please just contact woot and then leave it alone. It's their site.



What threat is this to you? Do you like getting the same designs other places sell, but for cheaper through woot? Have you been planning a similar shirt empire? Do you hate more creative content?

There's plenty of loaded ammo, sir.

2thFairy


quality posts: 2 Private Messages 2thFairy
AdderXYU wrote:Dear woot. If you wish to censor this again, please have the decency to inform me of why...

{lots of good stuff}

If you agree, please pledge your support here.



Adder, you should post this on your blog site too.

KenSPT


quality posts: 0 Private Messages KenSPT
AdderXYU wrote:Jack,

I agree that woot would be the best outlet for this. However, considering how many infractions have gone unnoticed over how many derbies have existed, how many tattle emails have gone in and done nothing, how often this designer's threads have become "find the infringement," I can't imagine I'd be saying anything new.



Granted Adder, I know you and I don't get along, and I'm not trying to stir the pot here ... just a statement/question.

If after all the emails, all the tattles, nothing has been done via Woot ... who are you to say an infraction took place?

It's Woot's site, it's Woot's liability, it's Woot's money ... if Woot doesn't see an infraction, then who are you to say there's actually an infraction?

It's fine to dislike designs, it's fine to dislike a poster, but to try and build a grassroots campaign to ban someone whom the establishment obviously doesn't think did anything wrong is a bit much.

fablefire


quality posts: 23 Private Messages fablefire

I hope this doesn't get deleted. It's a relevant derby issue. Rob just happens to be one of the most prominent examples of "design inspiration".

thatrobert


quality posts: 26 Private Messages thatrobert

I think this is going too far. Wherever his shirts are breaking the rules, you need to Tattle on him. Looking around here week to week, he is hardly the only designer getting inspired by ideas from Threadless. If it is different enough, it is up to Woot to decide whether it is worth their while to print. Beyond that, it seems like you're attacking him needlessly.

InitialSam


quality posts: 0 Private Messages InitialSam

You guys are being a little crazy.

First of all, these a just t-shirt designs. If you are putting this much thought into the "fairness" of woot's process then you have a problem. There are people at woot who get paid to take care of these things, and if they see it as a non-issue then you need to just back off.

I feel horrible for Rob, because the dude has submitted a huge collection of above average material to the derby. You just took a majority of his collection and stripped it of it's artistic relevance.

If the dude is inspired by certian ideas, give him a break. He puts a lot of work into those designs. There are certain things that LIVETRACE and CLIPART cannot do. You implying that all he does is copy and paste a peice of clipart is a hugeinsult to the dude.

We know a ton of people on here trace their material from existing photographs...Singling this guy out is just wrong.

Yea, He is winning with a periodic table shirt...and some dude on threadless made a periodic table shirt. but so what? that doesn't mean no one else can ever spoof the periodic table in t-shirt form...

all i'm saying is you need to back off a little bit.

bluchez


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bluchez
FearTheGorgon wrote:Yeah friends. Geekfactor, Cho, Jimiyo, Bluchez.



Thanks for bringing me into something I hadn't stated an opinion on. I so very much like people to put words in my mouth. The fact of the matter is, I had not posted ANYTHING in this thread or the one that was deleted as you have indicated, but I had offered my opinion on ONE shirt, as I felt it was the relevant one to discuss (since it's active in the current derby), in it's comment thread. I said that the periodic table should not be rejected, because it doesn't even match a periodic table, if for no other reason. But, forgive me for actually having an opinion and not being the lemming that you assume that I am. I will try to not let it happen again.

If you feel like spending the time, I would love for you to find all of the posts where I attack other entries out of some bond of brotherhood, or defend an artist from your list. If you can find more then 20 posts out of the almost 500 I've made, I would be very surprised and will be sure to take it into consideration in future posts.

KenSPT wrote:If after all the emails, all the tattles, nothing has been done via Woot ... who are you to say an infraction took place?
(...)
It's fine to dislike designs, it's fine to dislike a poster, but to try and build a grassroots campaign to ban someone whom the establishment obviously doesn't think did anything wrong is a bit much.



you never cease to crack me up. IoI

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
thatrobert wrote:I think this is going too far. Wherever his shirts are breaking the rules, you need to Tattle on him. Looking around here week to week, he is hardly the only designer getting inspired by ideas from Threadless. If it is different enough, it is up to Woot to decide whether it is worth their while to print. Beyond that, it seems like you're attacking him needlessly.



Woot has a simple reason for being.
"The difference is, these aren’t somebody else’s leftovers. Woot tees feature exclusive, original designs that you can’t get anywhere else (hence the terms “exclusive” and “original”)."

The designer in question has given woot nothing but designs which are neither. I really don't understand how this is such a difficult thing to grasp... allowing a designer who continually puts time and effort into ideas someone else already put the majority of time and effort into to continually enter and place makes this site a joke. It makes the site owners a joke for going against their mission statement. It makes the designers a joke for entering a contest where such contestants are allowed. It makes them doubly a joke for losing to crap the winner didn't design, and triply if they end up selling their soul to stoop to that level. It's absolutely about the designer in this case, not the design.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU

I got a PM probably within the hour, from whom I will keep mum, since they seem to wish to remain anonymous, with a couple other things worth noting... most was stuff I covered in my first and second posts, but I thought it was worth noting the following:

Support Local Music, as noted in its thread, used the same clip-art as another entry from City Without Words. Just one more reason why using clip-art is dangerous (and why I find it as damning in this case as I do the "rip-offs")

While I noted that most of the entries from the Lyric derby were simple clip-art, I forgot that his Imagine had a comparable shirt here

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
2thFairy wrote:Adder, you should post this on your blog site too.



My blog isn't for drama. My blog is a design depository.

Feel free to bookmark this one, however

InitialSam


quality posts: 0 Private Messages InitialSam
AdderXYU wrote:
While I noted that most of the entries from the Lyric derby were simple clip-art, I forgot that his Imagine had a comparable shirt here



Are you serious?!? A thought bubble...They don't even look similiar!

Man...i never thought i'd be standing up for this dude...but you guys are being ridiculous.

Stop the sensless attacking...if you don't like him, don't vote for his shirts...end of story.

FearTheGorgon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages FearTheGorgon
AdderXYU wrote:I got a PM probably within the hour, from whom I will keep mum, since they seem to wish to remain anonymous, with a couple other things worth noting... most was stuff I covered in my first and second posts, but I thought it was worth noting the following:

Support Local Music, as noted in its thread, used the same clip-art as another entry from City Without Words.
Just one more reason why using clip-art is dangerous (and why I find it as damning in this case as I do the "rip-offs")

While I noted that most of the entries from the Lyric derby were simple clip-art, I forgot that his Imagine had a comparable shirt here



Wow a thought bubble. This has gone from annoying to really sad. This entire thing reminds me of McCarthysm or Dolores Ubmridge or something. Are you going to start distributing The Rob Glenn Warning Newsletter? Can we write in all of the connections we find? "Rob Glenn made a shirt with a dragon on it! Here's a shirt with a dragon on it too!" Just keeping you all safe! Don't like it? What are you afraid of? Trying to hide something? Until next time, watch out for you neighbor. He might be Rob Glenn!

You really need to sit down and figure out what your issue with this really is. Woot can you please move this into Everything But Woot forum or get rid of it (again) please. And good for you Rob Glenn for not stooping to this level. If anything this is just giving you more support.

I'm sorry to everyone for expanding this thread, but it's really gone too far.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
InitialSam wrote:Are you serious?!? A thought bubble...They don't even look similiar!

Man...i never thought i'd be standing up for this dude...but you guys are being ridiculous.

Stop the sensless attacking...if you don't like him, don't vote for his shirts...end of story.



Creativity. Lack thereof. Read the damn mission statement. You're DEFENDING him for being wholly uncreative.

Try to read it as if it were a research paper. There are many reasons laid out for your convenience. What are you defending? His right to take other ideas? His right to slap clip-art onto a shirt and call it his own work? Yes, a thought bubble. An uncreative idea. An idea being marketed already. What good comes from supporting that? Your good conscience that you defended an underdog? We should be having the "other words" derby... you'd all be winning on Quixotic.

FearTheGorgon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages FearTheGorgon
AdderXYU wrote:Creativity. Lack thereof. Read the damn mission statement. You're DEFENDING him for being wholly uncreative.

Try to read it as if it were a research paper. There are many reasons laid out for your convenience. What are you defending? His right to take other ideas? His right to slap clip-art onto a shirt and call it his own work? Yes, a thought bubble. An uncreative idea. An idea being marketed already. What good comes from supporting that? Your good conscience that you defended an underdog? We should be having the "other words" derby... you'd all be winning on Quixotic.



This means little to nothing coming from someone who has a design in his sig (Hoser) that's completely unoriginal. Frogs leapfrogging? That's original. Who would have thought of that? Oh probably half a dozen other people who used frogs for the leap year theme. Are you serious or are you just trying to egg people on now? For someone who's never had a shirt printed you sure are eager to dispense your expert viewpoints to everyone, whether they want to hear it or not.

stannley


quality posts: 2 Private Messages stannley

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the Rampage Wear shirt? I am fairly new myself and don't really even know what live tracing is but even I was able to find the clip art piece that this shirt was centered around. Woot choosing a shirt for a daily where clip art was the central image seems to say that clip art is ok to them unless specifically banned. Out of coincidence, I think it is best selling daily ever.

On the original purpose of this thread - I do think you would have been better served providing a wider array of examples from different designers if you are wanting to see changes in what Woot allows and prints rather than calling out a specific designer to be banned/boycotted. I assume (as dangerous as this may be) from your post and replies that this is your ultimate goal. While there are credible examples of more blatant 'rip offs' here and possibly a trend towards that from this specific designer, it comes off as a personal attack against said designer.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
stannley wrote:Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the Rampage Wear shirt? I am fairly new myself and don't really even know what live tracing is but even I was able to find the clip art piece that this shirt was centered around. Woot choosing a shirt for a daily where clip art was the central image seems to say that clip art is ok to them unless specifically banned. Out of coincidence, I think it is best selling daily ever.

On the original purpose of this thread - I do think you would have been better served providing a wider array of examples from different designers if you are wanting to see changes in what Woot allows and prints rather than calling out a specific designer to be banned/boycotted. I assume (as dangerous as this may be) from your post and replies that this is your ultimate goal. While there are credible examples of more blatant 'rip offs' here and possibly a trend towards that from this specific designer, it comes off as a personal attack against said designer.



It -is-.

There are lots of designers who love using clip-art. I expect most of them will chime in in Rob's defense, because the implications would be clear for them, as well. I don't prefer it, but it happens. I just want to see it happen less, and I want to see it happen in a way where I see a design, not just clip-art, not just live-trace. As for Rampage Wear, it's a crapshoot. Woot won't admit they were wrong if they didn't know it, and if they did know it, they deemed it OK. The dailies are like that. I don't think the derby should. We have the resources to research the derby. there's no excuse.

I could have singled out scads of designers, but that isn't the point. Only one designer has the dubious track record of Rob. His record stands as an embarrassment to the site. If it seems like he's singled out, it's because he is. I don't want to penalize good designers who sometimes use clip-art, or designers who have used taken ideas before but usually go original. I didn't want to harp on old news and old entries. I want to make it clear that there is one entrant here who does this all the time, who weekly either pulls out a completely clipart design, or an idea ripped wholesale from a previously printed shirt. It's something that needs to be addressed. If woot can't see the issue, it's important the designers see how little woot cares about their effort. If the designers can't see the issue, they might want to reach a bit deeper down and ask why they went into design to begin with, because I'm sure every one of them would be outraged if it was their shirt in fourth, or their design someone ripped off on another site.

jimiyo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jimiyo
FearTheGorgon wrote:Geekfactor, Cho, Jimiyo, Bluchez.



Its Geeko, Cho, Jimiyo, & Bluchezo

Get it straight.

And Im annoyed at your comment, cause it makes it sound like you are saying that I just go along with Adder cause he's my friend.

Total pancakes.

I have never ripped any entries either.

It's a good thing more hardcore artists dont hang out here. If they did, they'd be ripping RG a new one for even coming close to mimicking another person's design.

I on the other hand, almost commend his shady entries. I believe in that trite saying, Hate the game, not the player.



I wasted 3 minutes of my life responding. Cheers.

Bull shillelagh = Pancakes apparently.

FearTheGorgon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages FearTheGorgon
fablefire wrote:Why don't you contribute something useful to the topic? Not much to say? You prefer personal slander? You like making personal attacks on someone for making personal attacks on another person?



Are you kidding? Please read all of my posts. What I am adding is this:

A. This thread should not even exist. It is immature, offensive, and doesn't belong under this category.
B. I pointed out how a lot of his hard evidence was anything but, a contribution I think.
C. I also said that bullying people around all the time in the derbies and with posts like this is sad. A major contribution if your one of the people who are tired of seeing other people who aren't Adder and Brizz's friends getting skewered all of the time.

Not everyone has to agree with Adder you know. I know everyone in his little circle does without thinking twice. Please again note that the only people chiming in with agreement are the people that always chime in with agreement with Adder's kind of opinions. No one else is, to spite his plea to the masses. And as far as slander goes all you have to do is look at Adder's own work to see that he should be posting essays like this about lack of creativity. Sorry if I spoke out against a buddy of yours.

fablefire


quality posts: 23 Private Messages fablefire
FearTheGorgon wrote:Are you kidding? Please read all of my posts. What I am adding is this:

A. This thread should not even exist. It is immature, offensive, and doesn't belong under this category.
B. I pointed out how a lot of his hard evidence was anything but, a contribution I think.


Not everyone has to agree with Adder you know. I know everyone in his little circle does without thinking twice.



Oh I read all of your posts, and while you might have a few points, you drown them in personal attacks. Did I say I agreed with Adder? No, I said that this thread shouldn't be deleted because it's a relevant and important derby issue. You're the one insinuating.

Your point A isn't contributing anything constructive to the derby issue at hand. It's more about forum modding.

Your point B is lacking support.

If you did have support somewhere in your posts, maybe it was drowned out by talk of Adder's shirt designs and friends.

fablefire


quality posts: 23 Private Messages fablefire
FearTheGorgon wrote:Are you kidding? Please read all of my posts. What I am adding is this:

A. This thread should not even exist. It is immature, offensive, and doesn't belong under this category.
B. I pointed out how a lot of his hard evidence was anything but, a contribution I think.
C. I also said that bullying people around all the time in the derbies and with posts like this is sad. A major contribution if your one of the people who are tired of seeing other people who aren't Adder and Brizz's friends getting skewered all of the time.

Not everyone has to agree with Adder you know. I know everyone in his little circle does without thinking twice. Please again note that the only people chiming in with agreement are the people that always chime in with agreement with Adder's kind of opinions. No one else is, to spite his plea to the masses. And as far as slander goes all you have to do is look at Adder's own work to see that he should be posting essays like this about lack of creativity. Sorry if I spoke out against a buddy of yours.



...and if you're going to edit:

Your point C has nothing to do with the derby topic at hand. This isn't the derby bullies vacuums thread. It's about artists being inspired, and one particular artist being more inspired than others.

If you've got a vendetta against Adder, you should be careful in who you mark as his friends and cronies. Weak assumptions weaken your originally weak argument.

FearTheGorgon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages FearTheGorgon
fablefire wrote:Oh I read all of your posts, and while you might have a few points, you drown them in personal attacks. Did I say I agreed with Adder? No, I said that this thread shouldn't be deleted because it's a relevant and important derby issue. You're the one insinuating.

Your point A isn't contributing anything constructive to the derby issue at hand. It's more about forum modding.

Your point B is lacking support.

If you did have support somewhere in your posts, maybe it was drowned out by talk of Adder's shirt designs and friends.



It's amazing that you can call someone out on slander and drowning out themselves with this and that while at the same time supporting this essay, which has about two valid points and about a dozen ridiculous connections and conspiracy theories. Have the nerve to use your own standards against your buddy. And those weak assumptions about Adder's circle of friends are anything but.

And yeah, everyone knows whos in that circle. It's pretty much those that always agree with him and never get bad critiques from him no matter how bad their work may be. Again, apply your own standards to Adder, who used words like 'cabal' and 'cronies'. I at least used the terms friends. But it's me that using weak arguments and insults. Laughable.

FearTheGorgon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages FearTheGorgon
fablefire wrote:I asked if you had anything to contribute to the thread topic and you said you had slander to contribute, which doesn't pertain to the topic. Adder has valid slander that actually pertains to the derby. You just don't like Adder, which really isn't related to the derby standards. I'm interested in Adder's topic, because it's relevant and pertains to me. I'm not interested in your non-derby related qualms with Adder.



I said no such thing. I could care less about Adder beyond his constant slamming of people who aren't his friends. I have plenty of valid points which you choose to ignore. You won't apply your standards against your friends, so what's the point of continuing this argument. No matter what point I make you'll simply say I'm being slanderous and hateful, when that's exactly what you're defending. Sad that you are slumming to this level.

Edit: And vendetta? Dude a vendetta is when you spend 24 hours a day on this site going after one person for weeks at a time. Sound like anyone you know. Again, apply your own standards to your pal Adder.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU

I'd ask why they don't care, as well. Why would you spend your time frequenting a website, indeed arguing about its practices, if you don't care? I'm breaching this subject because I do care. I care that the site is crippled by users who don't care about the lack of creativity people bring to the table, especially one user who has proven to find creativity to be anathema. I care that the site's mission statement is compromised by these users and especially by designers like the one in question. I care that real designers, people who put out good designs, crappy designs, mediocre designs, but their own designs, are allowed to be shut out by designers such as this. And I care that these designers are respected so little that nothing is done to stop it. If you DON'T care about it, let it be as it is... it won't matter to you one way or the other, so if I get my way or not, you'll be unaffected.

stannley


quality posts: 2 Private Messages stannley
AdderXYU wrote:
I could have singled out scads of designers, but that isn't the point. Only one designer has the dubious track record of Rob. His record stands as an embarrassment to the site. If it seems like he's singled out, it's because he is. I don't want to penalize good designers who sometimes use clip-art, or designers who have used taken ideas before but usually go original. I didn't want to harp on old news and old entries. I want to make it clear that there is one entrant here who does this all the time, who weekly either pulls out a completely clipart design, or an idea ripped wholesale from a previously printed shirt. It's something that needs to be addressed. If woot can't see the issue, it's important the designers see how little woot cares about their effort. If the designers can't see the issue, they might want to reach a bit deeper down and ask why they went into design to begin with, because I'm sure every one of them would be outraged if it was their shirt in fourth, or their design someone ripped off on another site.



Fair enough.
I cannot say I am surprised that this thread exists or that it calls out the particular designer that it does. I will also agree that allowing a designer to submit 'ripped-off' ideas week after week is a dangerous precedent. I can't help but bristle at the personal nature of this thread however.
I know there are some very talented artists who submit to this site, myself not included. My artistic ability is extremely limited and I just like to draw/sketch from time to time and designing tattoos for myself which the tattoo artist betterfies. I enjoy submitting shirts because it is an outlet for me to get some ideas out of my head and a challenge to think of something outside the box yet still on theme. I would be frustrated if I designed an original successful shirt that came in fourth or fifth to a shirt that used clip art. I would however stop to look at the creativity of the idea. If the idea itself were not creative, I would be furious. Judging creativity however is very subjective. If designers are driven away because of their considered designs being surpassed by ripped off designs, I would also be furious.
In the end though it does seem to boil down to the fact that this is Woot's site and they will run it how they see fit. I don't think this thread will cause them to ban this designer. It may cause derby voters to think twice before voting for this particular designer. It may also cause the same number to vote for this designer out of spite. I personally would like to see a thread that calls for more derbies with a no clip art/if you didn't draw it don't submit it stipulation.
Oh and I also wish for world peace, but I would settle for Woot peace

fablefire


quality posts: 23 Private Messages fablefire
FearTheGorgon wrote:But this has been brought up time and time again and it always boils down to it's woot's decision. Nothing Adder does, no matter how much he campaigns, annoys, insults, etc. is going to change that. He is not in a position to wave a wand of morality over people. He made his point, if he doesn't like what woot's decision was then he needs to move on or go to another site where they are stricter with their decision making. Sorry if you find my view on this insulting, sorry if I don't like people bullying their way around this site and deciding what's right and wrong for people, sorry if I turned the mirror of morality in on Adder, and I actually am sorry that I had to debate you on this because I like your work. But I don't like being ganged up on by the usual suspects either.



I don't like ganging either, but I wasn't sure what you were saying because of the personal references to Adder's history in the forums or his designs. Just wanted to actually know if you had an opinion on it, which you don't seem to. I mean, what do you think personally? Not what woot thinks, but what you think? Everyone has to have an opinion. You either think it's okay to submit inspired entires, or you don't. What if your opinion does matter?

It's not just Adder who doesn't like the inspired entries. If we don't say anything though, nothing will ever change for the better. Of course it boils down to woot's decision, but they've made decisions based on our input before. Nothing Adder does as an individual is really going to change things, but as a group we might be able to get recognition and help make changes for the better.