Jason Toon


quality posts: 19 Private Messages Jason Toon

Seven axed in Shirt.Woot shocker! Day of Reckoning massacre stuns nation! Ritual execution for lowest-selling shirts! Death warrants signed at noon! Dozens mourn!

Survivors (position last week/weeks on chart)

Casualties (position last week/weeks on chart)

Bystanders (not eligible for Reckoning until next week)

Row Vs. Wade overturned! One Cheer For Broccoli spoiled! Night Job downsized! Friends Are Forever? Wrong! Buy now - they're gone at midnight!


Jestik


quality posts: 50 Private Messages Jestik



'tis a good day.

Jimiyo gets printed, Choice survives another Reckoning, and Broccoli dies a deserving death

w00t !!!!

kwilder


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kwilder

An original work by BootsBoots lasts another weeks and knocks down the notorious picture "borrowing" Broccoli (as well as the cheese design, Roe v. Wade). What an awesome monday.

Sad to see some wonderful designs (artulo) go though.

peppersagooddog


quality posts: 0 Private Messages peppersagooddog

tremendously satisfactory after last weeks sadness.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis

More like three cheers for broccoli going away, amirite?

sekiyoku


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sekiyoku

It is my firm belief that cabbage was the one to kill broccoli... so broccoli haters owe their thanks to the woot staff. xD

smil3e


quality posts: 0 Private Messages smil3e

Huzzah - perhaps my purchase of Choice was the one that tipped it back into the mix... (perhaps no, but it is cool to think that I at least helped get one I liked out of danger - and besides, I hadn't bought that one yet).

And YAY - no more broccoli - bring on the cake! :D

Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.

JenDupre


quality posts: 19 Private Messages JenDupre

2 boots on the list, no broc, and RvW gone.

Life is good!


Ryfiel


quality posts: 1 Private Messages Ryfiel

Hooray, no more broccoli

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
sekiyoku wrote:It is my firm belief that cabbage was the one to kill broccoli... so broccoli haters owe their thanks to the woot staff. xD



I highly doubt that. Its sales were dropping drastically before Mon Petit Chou even made it on the list.

And even if that was the case, at least cabbage was created by someone and not just stolen from google or another place.

IndependentVik


quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
Jestik wrote:'tis a good day.

Jimiyo gets printed, Choice survives another Reckoning, and Broccoli dies a deserving death

w00t !!!!



Finally, some good news

sekiyoku


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sekiyoku
JadenKale wrote:I highly doubt that. Its sales were dropping drastically before Mon Petit Chou even made it on the list.

And even if that was the case, at least cabbage was created by someone and not just stolen from google or another place.



I don't know... I'm sure that cabbage hurt broccoli at least somewhat by splitting the market for Colon D Veggies :p If you consider that Choice and Broccoli were separated by probably no more than 3 purchases, then even a small impact could have been the difference. xD Broccoli still would have been reckoned, but it could have taken a few more weeks.

theghotiman


quality posts: 0 Private Messages theghotiman

Four new shirts made the reckoning this week and the high probability of four more next week. I am glad to see the list getting such a huge shakeup. Now if only we could figure out how to get Nevermore off of there.

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
sekiyoku wrote:I don't know... I'm sure that cabbage hurt broccoli at least somewhat by splitting the market for Colon D Veggies :p If you consider that Choice and Broccoli were separated by probably no more than 3 purchases, then even a small impact could have been the difference. xD Broccoli still would have been reckoned, but it could have taken a few more weeks.



I disagree since it was selling only 3-10 shirts a day for the last few weeks and it was steadily dropping before Chou came to woot. If you'd really like me to pull up the numbers and post them, I'll be more than happy to.

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
IndependentVik wrote:Finally, some good news



don't forget Rowe vs Wade ;)

IndependentVik


quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
JadenKale wrote:don't forget Rowe vs Wade ;)



Death to all cheesesandwich designs!

KaylaJ


quality posts: 22 Private Messages KaylaJ

heh, borrowed broccoli, i like that

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
theghotiman wrote:Four new shirts made the reckoning this week and the high probability of four more next week. I am glad to see the list getting such a huge shakeup. Now if only we could figure out how to get Nevermore off of there.



If you figured out a way, I would kiss you.

Not seriously. A fish-man is probably high in mercury. But I'd be appreciative.

SkekTek


quality posts: 17 Private Messages SkekTek
IndependentVik wrote:Finally, some good news



Bad news is there's no Cho on the list anywhere. I miss his designs.

dekonstruct


quality posts: 3 Private Messages dekonstruct

I must have missed the day mon petit chou came out, and that's ok. I think if cho came back it would mean a serious shake up of designs in the reckoning. it'd go something like this:

cho
tgent
ramy
saki

or shuffle it around for the next week and the week after.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
dekonstruct wrote:I must have missed the day mon petit chou came out, and that's ok. I think if cho came back it would mean a serious shake up of designs in the reckoning. it'd go something like this:

cho
tgent
ramy
saki

or shuffle it around for the next week and the week after.



The issue is, all cho ever did was prevent koi like Ren and Stimpy from printing. His shirts rarely registered on reckoning, and would always have comparatively short shelf-lives to other pieces. Cho designs a scared food shirt, it lasts a couple weeks. Donut Panic lasts a couple months. Same with TG... while his successful stuff slays longer than Cho's would, most of his shirts simply don't make it past reckoning #1.

I think there are a lot of factors in play as to why woot is sucking lately (more than normal, I guess I should specify). Part of it is kids sizes, and the genius soccer mom brigade it's brought in. Part of it is Pika and Rai and their scads of minions (real and fake). But the truth of the matter is, wooters have always had no concept of taste. It's simply worse in unaccountable-for ways these days. At least Dsladek had a concept of art, if no idea how to make it into a shirt. At least kdeuce always made a different looking piece of poo dropped on a shirt in an uninspired manner. Hell, even Cheese and Rob Glenn are continually finding new things to rip off.

So what we really need isn't Cho to come back, although it would be nice. We need at least six chos. Enough to dominate the hotness so none of this absolute koi can find a foothold. Enough to place first second and third, regardless of whether they'll sell out. I've said before, when Cho was a regular competitor and equally regular winner, people pushed themselves, because he was the competition. The more people we have doing just that, pushing themselves, the more the derby will improve. Right now, though, the competition is, well... you've seen it. You can either give in and do the same and try to grab the money, or you can put forth enough effort to potentially win. It's the only way we can stave off this dreck. Because the more good work is in the derby, the more chance good work will place. And the more good work is continually not placing, the more people will realize what is wrong with the derby. Look at the followings Boots and Edgar and Drakxxx have... it is because they stay true to who they are, design-wise, every week, and do not reap the rewards they deserve, while uninspired desu koi does. And every week, more and more people see artists like that lose, and say "god, I'm sick of the way woot is going." It is not just me and it is not even just designers. The more good work there is to root for, the more obvious it will be to everyone that something is wrong in the derby. It will either lead to reform or revolt. And either is needed. Desperately.

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
AdderXYU wrote:So what we really need isn't Cho to come back, although it would be nice. We need at least six chos... ...The more good work there is to root for, the more obvious it will be to everyone that something is wrong in the derby. It will either lead to reform or revolt. And either is needed. Desperately.



I'm confused. Did you say we need six more Chos so they can lose, so people can see the derby majority is voting in shiny kawaii desu instead of "real artwork"?

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
fablefire wrote:I'm confused. Did you say we need six more Chos so they can lose, so people can see the derby majority is voting in shiny kawaii desu instead of "real artwork"?



two seperate concepts flowing together.

We would need enough people like cho to completely block hacky animu nonsense (and other hackery) from getting exposure. But in the meantime, the more people giving it their best, the more people will see how destructive the path the derby is on is.

See, I know it doesn't matter when you're making bank off it, but it IS destructive to the site and the derby. And we have two options: either find a way to beat it back to the bowels of the same world tentacle fetishes came from, or find a way to prove just how damaging it is. Either way, we need people to put their heart into their work. Because if it wins, we win. And if it loses, our cause strengthens. If you have an entire derby of top-notch work sitting outside the top 10, people will start to question "dude, ok, I thought that was cute, but how did NONE of this good stuff even fog?" And sadly, as nice as having a powerhouse set of designers who dominated the top 10 so efficiently that the same old woot dreck couldn't get through would be, the more viable option is to load the depths of the derby with so much gold that the LCD nonsense, whether it be sloppy unfunny text or goat-hooved desu fatties, simply stinks even worse than the turd it already is. Again, look at the people who have the cult followings here. What do they all have in common? Brilliant minds and rare success. and you'd better believe most of their fans are sick of the derby as it stands.

Or, I suppose everyone could just ride the trend and make their money. That's much more respectable. No one expects art to be anything but commodity anyway. Listen to the radio. Go out to eat. read a magazine and especially look at the ads. People are sheep, and we are here to perpetuate it, until no one thinks independently any more, and their eyes are all as beady and glossy as a nondescript bunny eating a carcass... people who could be any other person, and have no character to prove who they once were.

sekiyoku


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sekiyoku

Hey Adder, out of curiosity, why'd you put Drakxxx's shirt up on tee trade? I saw it the other day and was wondering.

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
AdderXYU wrote:two seperate concepts flowing together.

We would need enough people like cho to completely block hacky animu nonsense (and other hackery) from getting exposure. But in the meantime, the more people giving it their best, the more people will see how destructive the path the derby is on is.



Yeah that's the part I don't get. How do you expect people to vote for Cho quality if they're voting for kawaii? I mean, Cho and other quality folks can't block out the shiny desu if people keep voting for it. I mean, TG's design this week is lovely but it's not getting love. Even the egg design has some artistic merit and it's sitting outside the fog.

So what you'd end up with is a bunch of nice designs sitting outside the fog (maybe, provided you could get artists to spare the effort), and then you're back to "the people" revolting against woot. Last time I checked woot reads the comments but doesn't change the rules.

Ultimately you need to either:

a) Change the voters
b) Change woot

I don't see your plan doing either one?

DeadFrog


quality posts: 2 Private Messages DeadFrog

Cult followings don't generate enough profit. 10 rabid and vocal fans can't compete with the bulk of wooters who will vote for anything cute. And, while I am mildly ashamed of occasionally pandering to that crowd, you have to play to win or get off the field.

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
DeadFrog wrote:Cult followings don't generate enough profit. 10 rabid and vocal fans can't compete with the bulk of wooters who will vote for anything cute. And, while I am mildly ashamed of occasionally pandering to that crowd, you have to play to win or get off the field.



QFT.

Jestik


quality posts: 50 Private Messages Jestik
DeadFrog wrote:Cult followings don't generate enough profit. 10 rabid and vocal fans can't compete with the bulk of wooters who will vote for anything cute. And, while I am mildly ashamed of occasionally pandering to that crowd, you have to play to win or get off the field.



As a non-artist, I don't understand.

Do you do art because it's in you, and it just comes out? Or do you do art to "win" and make money?

No offense intended, I'm honestly confused by your post, DF.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

Jestik wrote:As a non-artist, I don't understand.

Do you do art because it's in you, and it just comes out? Or do you do art to "win" and make money?

No offense intended, I'm honestly confused by your post, DF.



I am too. Pandering to the cute crowd and playing to win aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, it is one way to win, as cute wins by default in leue of anything better. But you can play to win while still doing your own thing, your own ideas, your own style.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
DeadFrog wrote:Cult followings don't generate enough profit. 10 rabid and vocal fans can't compete with the bulk of wooters who will vote for anything cute. And, while I am mildly ashamed of occasionally pandering to that crowd, you have to play to win or get off the field.



No. You are saying "play to only win, or get off the field". In this instance, you are saying "if every other team is using steroids, but you've got the best technical skills on the field, you best use steroids anyway, or you're not "playing to win."

Play for the love of the game, not the sake of the trophy, and not the sake of the paycheck, or else you're no athlete. Because everyone wants to win, and everyone wants the trophy and the money. So when you inevitably don't, because only one team gets that trophy, be able to look back and say "yeah, I'm proud of that loss. We did the best we could."

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
fablefire wrote:Yeah that's the part I don't get. How do you expect people to vote for Cho quality if they're voting for kawaii? I mean, Cho and other quality folks can't block out the shiny desu if people keep voting for it. I mean, TG's design this week is lovely but it's not getting love. Even the egg design has some artistic merit and it's sitting outside the fog.

So what you'd end up with is a bunch of nice designs sitting outside the fog (maybe, provided you could get artists to spare the effort), and then you're back to "the people" revolting against woot. Last time I checked woot reads the comments but doesn't change the rules.

Ultimately you need to either:

a) Change the voters
b) Change woot

I don't see your plan doing either one?



You'll note that the few times cho has entered lately, he has still printed. Not ahead of ka-why, or kdeuce before it, but still printed. He still has the draw to at least take third. Gentry still wins often, also, and he HAS placed first over the trash. So it is not unthinkable to believe that if people were competing as though Cho was going to dual-fog like he used to, we would have people giving the rare pieces that still win despite not being made for the dullest of the dullards.

But most people don't care to give that sort of effort when they see it as futile, because humans are lazy (which is why so many people have reverted to the beady eyes in their own style, I'd imagine). And that is what the second half is supposed to convey. See, you and deadfrog might not get this, because neither of you have a huge issue with dropping your game for a grand, but there are people out there who DO care about quality and respectability. If you don't want to have it, that is fine and dandy. But the fact is, if the derby is full of cho-level work, yet still has the same fogs, it's more evident that it is broken. Sort of like how if your laptop is slow, you might say it is broken, but if it has 24 viruses, opens windows at whim, pops up french error messages, broadcasts typographical documentaries when you have guests over, and sometimes won't start up, all while being the top-of-the-line machine out there, it's pretty obvious that something big is wrong. There are surely people out there that don't grasp the problem of woot, because the problem isn't clanging loud enough for them.

People giving their all will result in 3 things:

1) people, whether in small or large numbers, will see the increased quality. It has yet to be seen whether this will change anything or not, but if you don't see more and more people getting discontented about the state of woot right now, you are blind. If you screw things up long enough, even your staunchest supporters will start disagreeing with your competence. And Woot is slowly but surely approaching George W. Bush status as that goes. Because there is nothing wrong with cute, just like there's nothing wrong with Republicans (well, the concept at least), but when only the worst comes out of it, even its supporters start getting antsy.

2) The people who deserve it will start making portfolios that might attract actual clients or make waves on other shirt sites. If your whole portfolio is anime, you're only going to get work from otardku who want their myspace page refurbished to look like their favorite OnePiece cover. The designers who prove themselves skilled and versatile will have far more chance of profiting other ways than woot.

3) The derby is currently unviewable to anyone with basic art skills. But a derby full of the best content people can pump out? Even if most of it is losing, it will bring more and more users out to vote. If woot was known as a place where great work was in high quantity but rarely printed, instead of a hack contest where the most marketable hackery made an undeserved grand, people would come to see what was on display. Real artists know about woot. We've seen enough of them sell under 1000 shirts to know this. The great thing about real artists, though, is they love to support real artists. There's an amazingly supportive community at Threadless because the people there aren't making shirts for money but because they simply create, and if those creations could make money, awesome. Woot has no such community because the people who care to talk about shirts are continually trounced by neanderthals and twits. If there was more actual art and design to be found here, more people would look.

I know, it's very difficult to understand how not winning can benefit anything when all you think of is "how can I make a grand," but trust me, for anyone who cares about the site itself and the designers who inhabit it, it would make a huge difference.

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
AdderXYU wrote:No. You are saying "play to only win, or get off the field". In this instance, you are saying "if every other team is using steroids, but you've got the best technical skills on the field, you best use steroids anyway, or you're not "playing to win."

Play for the love of the game, not the sake of the trophy, and not the sake of the paycheck, or else you're no athlete. Because everyone wants to win, and everyone wants the trophy and the money. So when you inevitably don't, because only one team gets that trophy, be able to look back and say "yeah, I'm proud of that loss. We did the best we could."



Depends on your definition of the game. Imo, the woot derby game looks like this:

1) New theme announced on Thursdays
2) Think of a way to design something relevant to the theme to get votes
3) Submit the design as soon as possible for the most exposure
4) Those with the top three vote counts win
5) Merit awards will be given at woot's discretion

I love that game. It's why I'm in marketing/advertising. It's fun. Problem is, not everyone agrees on how points or votes are awarded.

In competitive sports, you typically play to win, because that is the objective of the game. You love the game because passionate athletes on either side will do whatever it takes to win the game. It's thrilling. You give it your all, and you know your opponent will too. People who play sports for recreation play because it's fun, or because they need exercise, or for social time, or because they don't want the competitive pressure, or whatever. Nothing wrong with that.

There were many games I played in where referees allowed all sorts of physical play. Do you sit down and cry after someone pushed you down? No, you just brace yourself next time and be willing to do the same if you want to stay competitive in that particular game.

If the woot referees are going to allow kawaii entries, and you know kawaii entries are going to get you points, and you want to win, then do it. If drawing kawaii entries is somehow against your principles, then don't do it. If you'd rather do impressionism then go for it, but realize that the current voter group probably won't give you many votes.

I also think... last time I checked, steroids were illegal in sports. I don't think I've read anywhere that vote pandering was illegal...

...and as far as looking back and saying, "yeah, I'm proud of that loss. We did the best we could." There have been multiple derbies where I held back a winning concept because of certain "principles" and all I thought was, "goddamn, I'm a fool. If I'm not going to look at this objectively then I shouldn't sub at all." That's just me though. I like to submit my artsy stuff to other sites, instead of tying it up for 60+ days only to later submit it to those other sites.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon

Hey Fable, neat site redesign!

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
AdderXYU wrote:*snip*



I have my own theories on the Cho/Tuna thing, so I won't address Cho's murderous tree.

...and my god, you're right. Woot is the only shirt site on the internet, and houses my entire life-portfolio of work. Clearly the time I'm saving on more efficient woot designs is not being spent on other more intricate designs for other projects and vendors. Oh woe is my laziness.

I would also say DeadFrog and I have upped our woot game, because I think we're both playing the woot game, whereas you're trying to change that game. I also noticed he had a lovely print on teefury the other day, but that doesn't count because again woot is the only portfolio that counts.

You are still relying on perceived statistics of unsatisfied wooters vs satisfied ones, so I can't really commit to helping your cause - which is the whole reason why I asked in the first place. I was curious if you actually had a plan for action instead of more lengthy unsubstantiated dissertation. :/

1) Relies on changing the voter base which in turn will change woot - which I've yet to see happen

2) Has nothing to do with woot. Who would make a real, presentable portfolio off of t-shirt designs?

3) You want to recruit a community but have no plan for community infrastructure.

I find your plan hard to understand because there is no detailed plan, with no goals, no actions, and no results.

Woot gods know I want the artwork back too Adder, but why don't you actually try doing or orchestrating something instead of blowing smoke? Get a plan, get people to support your plan, execute it.

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
eHalcyon wrote:Hey Fable, neat site redesign!



Danke! It's still a prototype but it's a start I suppose. =D

One of these days I'll have to make a real portfolio-site... *wants more hours in the day*

DeadFrog


quality posts: 2 Private Messages DeadFrog
Jestik wrote:As a non-artist, I don't understand.

Do you do art because it's in you, and it just comes out? Or do you do art to "win" and make money?

No offense intended, I'm honestly confused by your post, DF.



The art that I make as part of my artistic career is different from the designs I create to try and make a living as a T-Shirt designer.

I want my "art" to last longer than 100 times trough the dryer.

Edit: I'm not saying that I don't put all of my sadly neglected drawing and design skill into each piece. But I also try to create shirts that will get votes. And there are certain ways to attract votes...some of them easier than others.

Einstein defined insanity as: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. It would also be foolish do do things that are wildly different and expect the same results.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

fablefire wrote:I have my own theories on the Cho/Tuna thing, so I won't address Cho's murderous tree.



Do enlighten, please. I love theories.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

fablefire wrote:
2) Has nothing to do with woot. Who would make a real, presentable portfolio off of t-shirt designs?



Jimiyo? He's an art director at DBH now based off his work, although he's the only one I know of that's parlayed shirt design for contests into a job.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
tgentry wrote:Jimiyo? He's an art director at DBH now based off his work, although he's the only one I know of that's parlayed shirt design for contests into a job.



Most designers lump their shirt designs into a portfolio. It attracts clients who might want a shirt design. Which sounds silly now, but when you consider the shirts you see at any given concert, and consider that someone had to design those... What's client work like that go for? No clue, but I bet it's more the bigger the client. And again, if nothing else, the better your work, the better your chances at getting printed somewhere else in 60 days. Or at least the better your chances of someone buying your shirt if you put it on Print-on-Demand, where the prices are so high that you've already axed half of woot just on the cheap-ass coin, but are much less unreasonable to someone who is used to getting stuff from smaller shops or storefronts that put out the best work possible.

Next time you browse Threadless (and I say this to anyone who is interested) browse profiles. Check out portfolios. Hell, check out the portfolios in the daily "about this artist" fields. Many of these people are graphic artists as well, and most of their portfolios include their tshirt designs, whether mocked up on shirts or not, and whether winners or not. Are we to presume these artists all work day jobs at hot-dog-on-a-stick and never profit off their design work? Or are we going to use the tired "woot isn't for art" argument?

And all I can do is blow smoke if the people who are making the art are fat and happy off the status quo. You can't be for more art if you're not for yourself being that positive change. If your idea of marketing is "selling product," then you missed the whole concept. Because no one is buying you: they're buying the tired status quo you're supporting. I'm sure the smell of that grand is enough to quell your worried conscience, but all you are doing by defending what you claim to not agree with, and playing the game the cheapest way possible just for the sake of a winning record, is making yourself just as disposable as what you claim to be against. If you want your work to be disposable, then hoorah, but you cannot have it both ways.

fablefire


quality posts: 22 Private Messages fablefire
tgentry wrote:Jimiyo? He's an art director at DBH now based off his work, although he's the only one I know of that's parlayed shirt design for contests into a job.



Well yes, a shirt company would be interested in his shirt-heavy portfolio. Fantastic. Yes, please, all of you art folk on woot, make your entire art portfolio out of shirts. Forget anything you know about a diversified portfolio.

While we're at it, yes, everyone should keep up their whining and bitterbitching because naturally the magical powers of bitterbitching will solve everything, and will not create a negative vibe in the "community" or deter people from joining.

Talk about flawed logic.

"I want better quality derby shirts. I want artists to work extra hard so that I can have a pretty shirt. I'm going to berate the artists and scream and kick until I get what I want. Wah wah wah. QQ."