Shirt.Woot

paigeg wrote:FWIW, I did PM Adder a while back just to see if he was still functional. He apparently is just suffering from a bout of disinterest.
Meanwhile, I've also noticed the changeover around here. For my part, my comments have been fewer because I've been in the midst of relocating. I do still try to offer my .02 when I have time, though. These things happen - ebb and flow. Let's hope shirt.woot interest hits an upswing again soon. I do miss the lively discussion of subs in the pre-derby threads.

mebe having more than 24 hours to prepare would increase the discussions. I know I rarely say anything because I am struggling to put together my design.

Narfcake wrote:
The rants got to the point in which no matter how sweet the validity of the argument was, the vinegar base still left a sour note. So much so that they became more of a joke instead.

In which case, what is the point?

Instead of arguing, how about inspiring someone to change instead? Love, not war, y'know.

Exactly exactly exactly!! (I agree)

Josephus wrote:mebe having more than 24 hours to prepare would increase the discussions. I know I rarely say anything because I am struggling to put together my design.

We used to have a good time in the derby threads. That was a long time ago (in the tense of shirt.woot history). Things did get a little out of hand, but there was a significant moderation effort and things have never been the same community-wise.

Narfcake wrote:Functional? Geez, you almost make it seem like he's not a human being.

The rants got to the point in which no matter how sweet the validity of the argument was, the vinegar base still left a sour note. So much so that they became more of a joke instead.

In which case, what is the point?

Instead of arguing, how about inspiring someone to change instead? Love, not war, y'know.

Agreed. Im fine with spirited debate, I just really do not miss the personal attacks. I like being able to participate without the blood pressure skyrocketing. ^^;

bassanimation wrote:Agreed. Im fine with spirited debate, I just really do not miss the personal attacks. I like being able to participate without the blood pressure skyrocketing. ^^;

let's see some more participation, then! where are the spirited debates?

no1 wrote:let's see some more participation, then! where are the spirited debates?

I dunno, my trolling buddy gave up.

no1 wrote:let's see some more participation, then! where are the spirited debates?

Blue is superior to red. THERE! I said it ~_~.

no1 wrote:let's see some more participation, then! where are the spirited debates?

We're debating spirits? Fine. I'll take vodka.

bassanimation wrote:Blue is superior to red. THERE! I said it ~_~.

I couldn't agree more!

inkycatz wrote:We're debating spirits? Fine. I'll take vodka.

Honey Whiskey beats vodka.

artulo wrote:We used to have a good time in the derby threads. That was a long time ago (in the tense of shirt.woot history). Things did get a little out of hand, but there was a significant moderation effort and things have never been the same community-wise.

What do you mean by out of hand? I don't remember it getting too bad, but then again I wasn't really able to stay up past 2a.m. to watch the pre-derby threads. There is only so far that my insomnia will carry me.

Also, some one mentioned earlier in this thread that they felt the artist resources forum actually had the reverse of the intended effect. Instead of stimulating conversation it killed it? Do other people feel that way as well? Would it help if new subjects could be added to that forum, or would it be best just to put the discusions back here?

Thoughts?

Mavyn wrote:Honey Whiskey beats vodka.

I'll see your Honey Whiskey and raise you a Gin.

j5 wrote:I'll see your Honey Whiskey and raise you a Gin.

All alcohol tastes like pesticide. But if I have to pick one, Tequila tastes the least dangerous to my insides.

About the art discussion, I think those didnt go over well because it eventually degraded into more negativity. :\ It seemed to be too difficult to have a well rounded discussion without passionate preferences surfacing.

Passionate Preferences sounds like a bad hippie girl band.

bluejester wrote:What do you mean by out of hand? I don't remember it getting too bad, but then again I wasn't really able to stay up past 2a.m. to watch the pre-derby threads. There is only so far that my insomnia will carry me.

i missed the ending completely, but artulo may be referring to the Before Time when artists and non-artists alike started posting a lot more conversational stuff in the derby thread, including pics of themselves and other non-derby-related topics. this would go on for pages and pages. this was back in the days when cho was the dominant force. then woot brought the hammer down, deleted a bunch of posts left and right and (i think) handed out a few probations for posting off-topically.

bluejester wrote:Also, some one mentioned earlier in this thread that they felt the artist resources forum actually had the reverse of the intended effect. Instead of stimulating conversation it killed it? Do other people feel that way as well? Would it help if new subjects could be added to that forum, or would it be best just to put the discusions back here?

Thoughts?

i think the way it is, it's hard for people to post a question in the "artist resources" forum, since you have to find an appropriate thread first. imho woot should implement "sticky" threads to put the most useful threads at the top, but still allow people to start new threads. also imho, splitting off traffic into separate forums only makes sense if there is a lot of traffic; when it's like now, with little traffic, it makes the other forum seem like nobody ever goes there, so what's the point of posting a question there?

j5 wrote:I'll see your Honey Whiskey and raise you a Gin.

I'll see your Gin and raise you an absinthe.

bassanimation wrote:All alcohol tastes like pesticide. But if I have to pick one, Tequila tastes the least dangerous to my insides.

Why do you taste pesticides?

bassanimation wrote:All alcohol tastes like pesticide. But if I have to pick one, Tequila tastes the least dangerous to my insides.

About the art discussion, I think those didnt go over well because it eventually degraded into more negativity. :\ It seemed to be too difficult to have a well rounded discussion without passionate preferences surfacing.

Passionate Preferences sounds like a bad hippie girl band.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, put your hands together for Bass and the Passionate Preferences!"

Okay, I can see it.

Anyway, on a serious note, what do you as a designer think would be a good way for people to express their particular preferences when the conversation starts? I'm aware of what you mean as far as the personal passion involved. In the past people had a problem seperating out design preferences from design flaws. There was no room for personal flair with some people, art was made into a quantifiable thing.

Not to sound weird here but would it be worth it to you (or other designers reading this thread) if woot staff (such as tgentry) started creating design topic threads again. Even if it meant that there would be an occasional wet blanket? No one likes getting ripped into on a personal level for something that is their personal taste. So would you and others be willing to "hop in" as it were, to such conversations? Or have you been burned too many times in the past by such threads? (Not trying to say that it'd be whimpy to not join such threads, it takes guts to go back into a possibly volitile situation.)

Mavyn wrote:I'll see your Gin and raise you an absinthe.

OK, you win.
Though as a parting shot, I have to say I've had some mighty fine pear infused Kentucky shine that went down with no discernible pesticidal tendencies (ref 80's Venice, CA thrash band)

I agree that some "sticky" option should be investigated. It seems the current "artist resources" page gets less activity than the "side deals" it replaced.

Also:

Mavyn wrote:I'll see your Gin and raise you an absinthe.

Winner.

bluejester wrote:
Not to sound weird here but would it be worth it to you (or other designers reading this thread) if woot staff (such as tgentry) started creating design topic threads again.

I'm an other designer reading this thread, and I would love it if there were design topic threads. I never get any good art critique or discussion in real life. Please, can we have this? Just keep it well moderated, that's all.

ochopika wrote:I'm an other designer reading this thread, and I would love it if there were design topic threads. I never get any good art critique or discussion in real life. Please, can we have this? Just keep it well moderated, that's all.

are you interested in critiques from edumacated art people or ignerant dunsels like me or both? i usually stay out of serious art discussion because trained artists are more knowledgeable and i don't want to clutter up the field (edit: er, more than i already do, that is). however pros seem to be a bit harder to find these days.

bluejester wrote:
Anyway, on a serious note, what do you as a designer think would be a good way for people to express their particular preferences when the conversation starts? I'm aware of what you mean as far as the personal passion involved. In the past people had a problem seperating out design preferences from design flaws. There was no room for personal flair with some people, art was made into a quantifiable thing.

Not to sound weird here but would it be worth it to you (or other designers reading this thread) if woot staff (such as tgentry) started creating design topic threads again. Even if it meant that there would be an occasional wet blanket? No one likes getting ripped into on a personal level for something that is their personal taste. So would you and others be willing to "hop in" as it were, to such conversations? Or have you been burned too many times in the past by such threads? (Not trying to say that it'd be whimpy to not join such threads, it takes guts to go back into a possibly volitile situation.)

I managed to participate quite a lot before, even with the fighting. I just did my best not to get involved in the fights.

Art topics are always interesting, and if I feel I have anything to offer, I'll gladly hop in . Lord knows I struggle quite a lot with shirt designing. Most of the time I dont move forward with derby designs because they're highly flawed, and I dont know how to fix them. ^^; Help would be good.

As for personal preferences, it's hard for people to keep those in check. I just try to remember that Im not the only person on earth. I might not like something, but someone does. I dont seek out people who like something and hound them for it.

no1 wrote:are you interested in critiques from edumacated art people or ignerant dunsels like me or both? i usually stay out of serious art discussion because trained artists are more knowledgeable and i don't want to clutter up the field (edit: er, more than i already do, that is). however pros seem to be a bit harder to find these days.

People who aren't "pros" still have an eye for what looks appealing. It's why some things do well and some dont (products I mean). People have a sense of what looks off, even if you're not trained. Nobody needs to be pro to critique. It depends on how deep you want to go with your crit. If you have training, your eye will pick up on deeper things. But if you're not trained, it still doesnt matter. A wonky leg will look like a wonky leg to anyone

no1 wrote:are you interested in critiques from edumacated art people or ignerant dunsels like me or both? i usually stay out of serious art discussion because trained artists are more knowledgeable and i don't want to clutter up the field (edit: er, more than i already do, that is). however pros seem to be a bit harder to find these days.

I agree with Bass on this. I'd love to have input from everyone. Everyone looks at and judges the designs here so it would be counterproductive to exclude anyone.

Also, as Bass said, most people can tell when a design looks good and when something needs work.

I can't really see why it's surprising that discussion has died down (or is dead). You really only need two or three things. First and foremost you need people that care about things. That would seem like an easy condition to meet, but the active people left fall pretty squarely into the "Can't we all be nice to everyone? Everything is awesome we should only say nice things," camp or the "Caring about things might make me sound uncool. Can't do that... *snarky comment*" camp.

You also need diversity. That goes both for opinion and design and a quick perusal through the derbies and it's pretty clear there's not much of either. There's not a single artist that really jumps out at me that could strongly critique another without having the same things said back at their own design.

People always yelled and shouted that designing for the win is perfectly legitimate and why shouldn't artists try to make what sells? That's all well and good, but homogeneous design makes for a homogeneous community. There's plenty of good designers in the derby and several in this thread. Start pushing some boundaries and make things artistic and creative and you might find that things liven up a bit. At the worst you'll just confirm that all the life already left.

ochopika wrote:I agree with Bass on this. I'd love to have input from everyone. Everyone looks at and judges the designs here so it would be counterproductive to exclude anyone.

Also, as Bass said, most people can tell when a design looks good and when something needs work.

Unfortunately, the derby itself makes for an odd bedfellow as far as open critiques go. I think that's why it was so easy for non-artists to make bold comments. It becomes sort of volatile to make any negative comments in a competition arena. This isnt CGHub or DeviantArt where there's no 'point system' in play. It makes giving a good, solid critique kind of iffy cause nobody wants to look like a 'bad guy' (or at least most of us dont).

There's also fanbases here. I know in the past I've given my thoughts on some artists work only to be hammered by the artists' fans :\. I understand, but it does make me really reluctant to say anything. If I feel really strongly I sometimes pm the artist directly with a pointer or opinion.

If I may mention names, Dooomcat is great in that she's very open with her critiques in the derby. She's not mean or biased, she just knows when something's off and states it. She usually can give a good back up, such as something is off balance, or the silhouette is not strong, etc. That's the kind of good crit you want ^_^.

mrwednesday wrote:That would seem like an easy condition to meet, but the active people left fall pretty squarely into the "Can't we all be nice to everyone? Everything is awesome we should only say nice things," camp or the "Caring about things might make me sound uncool. Can't do that... *snarky comment*" camp.

I'm pretty sure I should be offended by this, but I can't decide which camp I would fall in, so I'll offer a third option. "Caring about things (in this particular arena) is futile, *snarky comment*"

ochopika wrote:I agree with Bass on this. I'd love to have input from everyone.

Your turtle looks funny.

bassanimation wrote:
There's also fanbases here. I know in the past I've given my thoughts on some artists work only to be hammered by the artists' fans :\. I understand, but it does make me really reluctant to say anything. If I feel really strongly I sometimes pm the artist directly with a pointer or opinion.

I think this is a big part of it. It's easy look like a bad guy when critiquing something others love. ThatRobert even got attacked for giving out his best loser award.

Oh, and alcoholically, I can't believe absinthe won. I think it tastes like black licorice that was stored in a dirty sock. It looks pretty, though...

cdrewlow wrote:I think this is a big part of it. It's easy look like a bad guy when critiquing something others love.

Definitely. Anyone who's been around for a while (and/or gets bored and starts reading up old threads) knows the past drama that certain designs tended to garner ... and when it turns into an insult-fest, you kind of wonder "why did I even say anything to begin with?".

cdrewlow wrote:I think this is a big part of it. It's easy look like a bad guy when critiquing something others love. ThatRobert even got attacked for giving out his best loser award.

Oh, and alcoholically, I can't believe absinthe won. I think it tastes like black licorice that was stored in a dirty sock. It looks pretty, though...

When I'm critiquing a design, I make every effort to not sound like the bad guy, and to offer helpful crit, not slams. I'm no pro but, as was mentioned above, sometimes something just looks off, or needs shading or context. You don't need to be a pro to point it out. And you don't need to be snarky. I feel for a lot of the newer subbers who bemoan not getting input in the pre-derby thread. I totally get it. Of course, I've also noted that far fewer folks even bother with the pre-derby thread; it seems to be used mostly by noobs now, many of whom are, um, unskilled. That does make offering helpful crit more challenging.

And, hey - absinthe only won because I didn't have time to bring out the Southern Comfort.

paigeg wrote:
And, hey - absinthe only won because I didn't have time to bring out the Southern Comfort.

Absinthe wins because I am quite fond of it. ;)

inkycatz wrote:Absinthe wins because I am quite fond of it. ;)

Absinthe rocks. My SO is also rather fond of HerbSainte, kind of a New Orleans version of absinthe.

mrwednesday wrote:I can't really see why it's surprising that discussion has died down (or is dead). You really only need two or three things. First and foremost you need people that care about things. That would seem like an easy condition to meet, but the active people left fall pretty squarely into the "Can't we all be nice to everyone? Everything is awesome we should only say nice things," camp or the "Caring about things might make me sound uncool. Can't do that... *snarky comment*" camp.

You also need diversity. That goes both for opinion and design and a quick perusal through the derbies and it's pretty clear there's not much of either. There's not a single artist that really jumps out at me that could strongly critique another without having the same things said back at their own design.

People always yelled and shouted that designing for the win is perfectly legitimate and why shouldn't artists try to make what sells? That's all well and good, but homogeneous design makes for a homogeneous community. There's plenty of good designers in the derby and several in this thread. Start pushing some boundaries and make things artistic and creative and you might find that things liven up a bit. At the worst you'll just confirm that all the life already left.

*here, read my huge wall of text.*
I think that people have different ideas about the purpose of an "art discussion thread". I would like some place where people can give purely objective advice on designs. Is the design working? Why does it look "off" for some reason? You don't have to say anything good, just be able to back it up with solid critique. I guess that's what "artist resources" is for, but it just doesn't get enough attention.

Some people, perhaps you feel this way, would like a discussion about the validity of the subject and/or style of the artwork. Is the design "original", is it really doing something for the art community and for the public? Is the work degrading the field of shirt design? This is just as valid as talking about technical aspects of design. Unfortunately, this conversation goes nowhere on this site because no one explains themselves. Why is this kind of art detrimental to the art community, why is another design better?

It's like... paragraphs upon paragraphs of thesis statements, but no body or conclusion. No artist can effectively respond to this because there's no real argument, just opinions. That's why the conversation dies out. I'm going to use one of your last sentences as an example. It's not important whether or not it was directed at me, I'm just trying to illustrate my point here:

"Start pushing some boundaries and make things artistic and creative and you might find that things liven up a bit."

Okay, pushing boundaries and being creative is good advice, but what do you mean? I know that I've pushed my personal boundaries of
technical skill and concept...but now you're saying I haven't done that? Well, now I'm going to get mad at you and insult you, or get all apathetic and ignore all art discussion on woot. What do you even mean by "make things artistic"? That's gonna lead to the whole "what is art" thing, and if you went to art school you just don't want to have that conversation for the billionth time. I think my work and the work of others is "artistic" if it is paying attention to balance, emphasis, line, form, color..etc. You probably think differently, but I can't possibly know what you mean because your wording is ambiguous.

If people explain why they say what they say, then the discussion goes beyond opinion. You could effectively argue that my "they see me rollin'" design is unoriginal and typical cutesy garbage. It isn't pushing boundaries here at woot, it's not creative, and I obviously tried to cater to a large, "unsophisticated" audience. Okay, there's your thesis. Now, go a step further and explain why: There are hundreds of "that's how I roll" t-shirts, so by definition the idea is not original. Whether or not cutesy designs are garbage is subjective, but it can be said that my turtles are in the typical cutesy style seen at woot (you could then site some examples of other cute turtle designs, yes mine are indeed similar). Because you've already effectively argued that the design is unoriginal, we can also assume that it's not pushing any boundaries and isn't creatively different than other designs. Also, the shirt is obviously catered to a preexisting audience since I used a popular catchphrase. It's not really breaking any new ground or changing minds.

I could now discuss your opinion because I understand the reasoning behind your words. Maybe you'd even convince me to take up some of your ideas. Other people who read the forums might take the argument seriously because it has reasoning behind it. Then, maybe you'll see the change you want. It's all about communication, maaan.

*oh yea, and @j5: lol, thanks...I think.*

ochopika wrote:Your wall of text was waaaay bigger than mine

I never really meant to comment on the merits of things being artistic or creative or garbage or whatever (though your analysis on how I roll is pretty spot on I think). Nor do I disagree that people need to back up their statements. Saying something is an opinion doesn't free it from having to be based in reality. My point was that there seemed to be a lot a people wondering why there weren't as many discussions about stuff, and I posited my thoughts on why that might be.

Whether I'm right or not is up for debate, but really it doesn't matter who is right. The community was once pretty vibrant and it appears to not be any longer. I'd say it's pretty clear woot's governance has fostered a purchasing community that has very narrow design aesthetics. This in turn leads to a very narrow subset of the community remaining.

That doesn't mean the community can't be vibrant, but I'd say there's a pretty strong correlation between liking the type of designs woot is churning out and having very little interest in things like artistic value, creativity, or other elements of design. Don't get me wrong, not all cutesy is bad (or any other type of design for that matter). I bought Makin' Bread and I quite like the design because the characters have life beyond just the internal pun.

That said, my ultimate point is that if you want things to be different start doing something about it. Make threads here that talk about design. I don't see woot moderating that sort of thing, or at least it might lead to the artist forum changing to be more of an active place people hang out. Start discussions. Ask for better comments. Give better comments. No community is good by accident. You have to have people that care. Right now I don't think woot has a lot left that do, but if you start showing some life others might pick up the slack.

glad to see you back, however temporarily Mrwednesday.

ochopika wrote:
*oh yea, and @j5: lol, thanks...I think.*

I was riffing on the comments in Kevlar/Walmazan's entry. Your turtles are peach.

and whatever happened to "Jestik"?

He used to post here all the time, buy shirts here all the time, and was a pretty positive and cheerful sort of guy.


wonder whatever happened to him.

I will say that some in the past started the wars, not just because of the tone of their comments, but because they strayed from critiquing the execution of the design to the content. The subject of a design can be said to be in poor taste/offensive or cliche etc, but not worthless like some seemed to use.

I would have been in fights with the missing if I had made comments on subject. Draxx and CD's collaborations always seem to stray into the demonic. Something I would not buy, though I like dark subject matter in general.
Another example is Odroc, would I have bought his surfing Sasquatch? No. Could you accuse him of selling out for switching to nature scenes (far more generic)? Sure. Did he get more votes when he did? Yes. Thing is I was able to compliment his coloring without being interested in the design as a whole. I don't think I saw much of that from others (if they don't mention it is hard to tell though).

I'm one who thinks the polite gave up before the impolite, and it will take a while before people notice the calmer waters, and are willing to give posting a go again.

I like to try and help in the prederby, if I can. But don't like to do much criticizing when they have subed it already (apart from pointing out the submitting rules they may have broken).

You're all a bunch of sellouts! Go hug a rainbow.

mrwednesday wrote:good stuff

Oh, no when I said "here read my wall of text", I was referring to my own post. It was much longer than I thought it was when I posted it :P

You're right, I agree with your point now that I understand it a bit better. I just like to debate things...this can be good or bad.

Everyone should try to think of things to post that can open-up more art community conversation...

ps: heeey the stuff about my turtle design was a hypothetical argument, you weren't supposed to agree with it >.< I'm glad you like the kitty design though.

ochopika wrote:
ps: heeey the stuff about my turtle design was a hypothetical argument, you weren't supposed to agree with it >.< I'm glad you like the kitty design though.

You both had good points . What I like about Wednesday is, even though he's been abrasive in the past, he can usually give solid reasons for liking or disliking something. That is something I appreciate...even with a little salt on the side.

What I dont understand is why something really needs to be this or that for it to exist? There's plenty of things out there that arent new or ground breaking, but they're still enjoyable. For example, I bought "Thats How I Roll". I dont typically like that phrase, nor do I buy a lot of turtle shirts, but I liked the combo on that particular shirt. I don't really think liking the shirt means Im a low brow troglodite. I dont know how to spell trogolodite and Im too tired to Google =_=. Im not making my point very well now.

Im not sure I can add anything else to the thread that you guys aren't already covering. I do appreciate seeing these topics opened up for good discussion.

Here's a bear chasing a wolf.