Shirt.Woot

mrwednesday wrote:Robbie submitted this design for the robots save the world derby. It began it's life looking like this.There were several rounds of comments in the prederby thread after which the design was refined

There were a lot of improvements made, but I felt like the entire concept was completely lost by including the entire outline of the the alien spaceship. Apparently Robbie agreed and pulled the design even though it was in the fog and reworked it to the final form I first linked.

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The best thing that could happen is people start tearing into each other's designs. When something sucks tell them it sucks. When something could be better let them know how. Everyone benefits when no one is pulling punches. Yeah your rep might take a hit, but are you here to finance yourself on prints or to make something awesome?

I'd love to see more discussion/ critique, but I suspect your last sentence is closer to reality for many.

j5 wrote:I'd love to see more discussion/ critique, but I suspect your last sentence is closer to reality for many.

There's a lot of critiquing that goes on away from these forums. I think one of the important things is to have people who you can trust to be honest with you, but also have an opinion you respect.

If I run a design by Boots or CrescentDebris (for example), I can trust that both will be brutally honest, but I can also trust that "this sucks" isn't going to be their critique. They'll have a reason why it sucks, and what I'll be able to do to make it better. You don't see much of that in the forum, because it tends to be a long drawn out process of taking in opinions, processing the concepts, making revisions, and getting a new critique.

I like to do color "overpainting" for my friends if they ask for a critique. Nothing too time consuming, just a quick guide on how things can maybe improve, or different color combinations that they may not have thought of. I know some other like to do the same with anatomy or perspective, or whatever. But that's also best in a private setting.

I think the problem Robbie ran into was having too many opinions thrown at him, at the same time. A more focused critique from a couple of designers he trusted, would have gotten him to his end result quicker, I think. The problem with having so many voices is, you tend to want to please everybody, and your design loses focus in a hurry.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, art talk is good, but a forum like this probably isn't the ideal setting.

odysseyroc wrote:There's a lot of critiquing that goes on away from these forums. I think one of the important things is to have people who you can trust to be honest with you, but also have an opinion you respect.

If I run a design by Boots or CrescentDebris (for example), I can trust that both will be brutally honest, but I can also trust that "this sucks" isn't going to be their critique. They'll have a reason why it sucks, and what I'll be able to do to make it better. You don't see much of that in the forum, because it tends to be a long drawn out process of taking in opinions, processing the concepts, making revisions, and getting a new critique.

I like to do color "overpainting" for my friends if they ask for a critique. Nothing too time consuming, just a quick guide on how things can maybe improve, or different color combinations that they may not have thought of. I know some other like to do the same with anatomy or perspective, or whatever. But that's also best in a private setting.

I think the problem Robbie ran into was having too many opinions thrown at him, at the same time. A more focused critique from a couple of designers he trusted, would have gotten him to his end result quicker, I think. The problem with having so many voices is, you tend to want to please everybody, and your design loses focus in a hurry.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, art talk is good, but a forum like this probably isn't the ideal setting.

^ All of this ^

Many of us have trusted arters we talk to off-site about our work. This way we're not hammered with ill-willed heckles. As much as some people think "This sucks" is a critique, it is not a critique.

Also, I dont think artists should be looked down upon if they -dont- pull their designs to fix everyone's complaints. Design by committee is always an exercise in frustration. The artist did the design the way they wanted to do it. Suggestions are great, but in the end it's that artist's personal choice if they want to change the image or not.

bassanimation wrote:Many of us have trusted arters we talk to off-site about our work. This way we're not hammered with ill-willed heckles. As much as some people think "This sucks" is a critique, it is not a critique.

From a truly selfish perspective, I love to "fly on the wall" design sessions/discussions, but can certainly understand why they are rarely public.

Also, I dont think artists should be looked down upon if they -dont- pull their designs to fix everyone's complaints. Design by committee is always an exercise in frustration. The artist did the design the way they wanted to do it. Suggestions are great, but in the end it's that artist's personal choice if they want to change the image or not.

Design choices should absolutely be up to the artist, and in MrWednesday's example it was Robbie's choice to make the change (and for the better, IMO). Realistically, time crunches make derby entries prone to error and sub-optimal design choices, so it's a tough balance between "fix it and risk loss" or let it slide and let it eat at you for all eternity (or not, depending on your disposition )

odysseyroc wrote:I think the problem Robbie ran into was having too many opinions thrown at him, at the same time. A more focused critique from a couple of designers he trusted, would have gotten him to his end result quicker, I think. The problem with having so many voices is, you tend to want to please everybody, and your design loses focus in a hurry.

I completely disagree. I don't think Robbie had a problem. Nor do I think more voices is a bad thing. No one redrew anything for him. No one said, "hey do this exactly this way." People talked about things they didn't like and he addressed the ones he agreed were lacking on his own. And he added a bunch of elements independently. I thought his first submission lost the original vision. So did he apparently because he pulled the design and fixed it.

That's the important part. There's no optimal design for anything. Everyone has their own tastes and when you limit your exposure you narrow your output. That's never a good thing. I wish more artists here were open to improving their designs. The place as a whole would be infinitely better.

bassanimation wrote:Many of us have trusted arters we talk to off-site about our work. This way we're not hammered with ill-willed heckles. As much as some people think "This sucks" is a critique, it is not a critique.

Also, I dont think artists should be looked down upon if they -dont- pull their designs to fix everyone's complaints. Design by committee is always an exercise in frustration. The artist did the design the way they wanted to do it. Suggestions are great, but in the end it's that artist's personal choice if they want to change the image or not.

[Moderator: Text deleted] My point was never that artists should pull and rework every design ever whenever someone doesn't like something. My point was that the quality of designs here would be orders of magnitude better if more artists cared about making sure their designs were quality rather than just worrying about whether or not it'll print.

I know people here have a tendency to be overly sensitive about their work, but any evaluation is informative. "This sucks" doesn't tell you what needs be to fixed, but it does let you know that there are people who view your design negatively enough to warrant that response.

I'll give you an example. I don't draw, but I do have to publish. If I write something and 10 people see it and 5 say good things and the other 5 don't say anything, I have an entirely different opinion about it than if 5 say they like it and 5 say it sucks. I don't know what they think needs to be fixed, but I know I need to look at it again because it's not as good as it needs to be.

It would be wonderful if every person expressed their opinion with wonderfully detailed explanations, but it's just not going to happen. That doesn't mean negative comments don't have value, and it certainly doesn't mean positive ones without explanation necessarily have value either.

This is a public contest and there's a ton of useful criticisms out there, but my experience is that many have been too smug or thin skinned to take advantage of it. As a result people stop bothering to offer detailed evaluations.

mrwednesday wrote:The last paragraph of the comment was directly referencing my example of Robbie's robot shirt that odysseyroc was directly replying to. So not sure what you're talking about....

I understand perfectly well what you're talking about. I do however disagree that Im the one on the high horse. I will explain.

You're basically judging us, and our work, and laying down the rules which you think we should abide by. This is not something I've ever been comfortable with here on Woot. I dislike reading things that suggest "if you're work isnt what we feel is worthy, and you dont do the things we think you should do, then you deserve nothng." <--I'm sorry, this is how it comes off most of the time

I'm not on any high horse...trust me, I was born riding the no-legged pony. However, I do take issue with the odd views some people have had here about how to achieve "artistic greatness". I take issue with it because that is a -very- personal thing to most artists. That and people's opinions here about what is great is so rarely about the art, and more about personal taste. That's what I feel truly negates a lot of this community's ability to offer good, sound advice.

The one thing I do agree with is that we should strive to be the best version of ourselves we can be. But, that is each artist's personal journey. Only each individual can pursue what they feel is awesomeness.

And now soup and Tylenol...

/

Being able to express an opinion in terms that are not emotionally charged to incite a negative response is helpful as well. Insulting your audience makes them less likely to consider your suggestions, validity irregardless. I've seen many comments here that don't address the artwork at all, just bash on the topic or worse, the artist.

As a writer, I can't imagine you aren't aware of that already.

(See what I did there? Put down by choice of phrase. It's a nasty business.)

Mavyn wrote:Insulting your audience makes them less likely to consider your suggestions, validity irregardless.

Oh no you didn't!

j5 wrote:Oh no you didn't!

Oh yes. I went there.

Irrespective, regardless.

Annoying, yes?

Mavyn wrote:Being able to express an opinion in terms that are not emotionally charged to incite a negative response is helpful as well. Insulting your audience makes them less likely to consider your suggestions, validity irregardless. I've seen many comments here that don't address the artwork at all, just bash on the topic or worse, the artist.

Well said. Pretty much the whole internet could use this advice. :^)

Critical feedback comes in two flavors; honest evaluation that's designed to be informative, or a reaction that's designed to put someone down and elevate the critic. Personal attacks are the weapons of people with no intellectual ammunition.

I'm always appreciative of an honest evalution though, even if at the time it might sting to recognise the flaws in my work. The best advice is thoughtful and comes from a position of generosity. There are definitely posters and artists here who are able to do that.

Hey gang. I've enjoyed reading the debate about specifics regarding critiques (especially b/c it mentions me).

Regardless of whether I hit up a small, focused group for feedback or reach out to a broader base like the pre-derby threads, it's ultimately up to me, the artist, to figure out what's useful feedback that will help me achieve my goal vs. feedback that's good but might change my intent vs. feedback that is just doesn't really make a lot of sense.

In my robot vs alien example, Mrwednesday is right- I spent too much time trying to satisfy all the critiques. But I think that's on me, not the people giving me feedback. Lesson learned!

So I think it's cool to ask everyone or just a few people for feedback, but the artist has to use a filter to only catch the good stuff and, more importantly, make sure he or she doesn't lose sight of what they are trying to say.

Of course, if you want tips on highlights and color, then disregard what I just said- just email Odysseyroc directly and so whatever he says. He's solid gold with that stuff.

I think this week's derby is a pretty good indicator of why nobody likes to critique anymore.

j5 wrote:I think this week's derby is a pretty good indicator of why nobody likes to critique anymore.

Here's my big wall of text; one of them, at least :-)

By happenstance, I wandered over to this thread while searching for terms like "artist" and "critique."

I am an absolute beginner (with nothing much at stake), and a newcomer to Shirt.Woot! Unfortunately, I understand j5's position after seeing fan-followers flaming posters who simply quote Woot! contracts to stress hard and fast rules that involve no interpretation or specifically list analogous events to demonstrate a point. What they are doing qualifies less as critique and more as group memory, and yet, for their contribution to the community, their art or personality or grammar is attacked.

j5,
The fact that you replied to me after posting the quoted text speaks volumes of your commitment to this community. You were disillusioned enough to make that statement, but still responded to my request. To some extent, I suspect my plea for feedback correlated to asking you to lead me through a minefield I planted while holding the map behind my back. I respect you for stepping up anyway.

I wish those of you in this thread-chat room could understand the impact you could have on some of us. Maybe Woot! Would consider a junior-mentor team Derby sometime or even every couple of months, i.e., require teams, one of whom must never have printed at Woot! Perhaps the incoming and currently quickly outgoing noobs would stay longer and increase the energy to evolve.

I would also suggest an additional question for the derby entry, e.g., "do you want a 'critique me' button clipped to your thumbnail?" If people are wary of critiquing others because of the backlash, then I have less motivation to be here. If we could create a safer place for you to be honest, specific, and critical, all the artists would benefit.

Moneys great, but my goal is to evolve as an artist. I've been a writer my whole life, but I've always longed to do more than just describe the pictures in my head. A friend encouraged me to come over to this site and soak up the ambiance.

I catch glimpses of what she was pushing me to find.

j5,
you and the artists and art lovers on this thread are the online artists colony I was looking for. Don't let the haters cause any of you all to "go dark."

I will weep if I've arrived too late.

j5 wrote:I think this week's derby is a pretty good indicator of why nobody likes to critique anymore.

Why? What did I miss? I hate being out of the loop.

Edit: I miss a lot of things that happen on Woot these days. I'm not really as interested or as involved as I used to be. There used to be a lot of discussion on submitted designs. There were arguments and critiques, people saying "How could you design this piece of crap!" and others saying, "Oh no! I love it!" That was awesome. I think, while well thought out critiques might be less of a blow to an artist's ego, hearing that someone thinks "your design blows" is totally valid. When you put your work out there for the public to see, you're kind of giving permission for people to hate it and tell you so. After all, you hope that people will see your work and tell you they love it. I don't see why negative comments have to have some kind of constructive tone, when positive ones can just be "Oh My Gookie! Want!" ...that's it. I typed more than I meant to.

BootsBoots wrote:Why? What did I miss?

for one thing, midgerock offered some critique, and people jumped on him. There were other examples, but those spring immediately to mind.

And bethany3cat is being waaaay too generous, and jeopardizing my carefully cultivated internet jerk persona.

j5 wrote:for one thing, midgerock offered some critique, and people jumped on him. There were other examples, but those spring immediately to mind.

And bethany3cat is being waaaay to generous, and jeopardizing my carefully cultivated internet jerk persona.

You are such a jerk.

j5 wrote:for one thing, midgerock offered some critique, and people jumped on him. There were other examples, but those spring immediately to mind.

And bethany3cat is being waaaay to generous, and jeopardizing my carefully cultivated internet jerk persona.

you jerk, don't you know midgerock is a girl (I think)?

Josephus wrote:you jerk, don't you know midgerock is a girl (I think)?

Nope, pretty sure Mr J5 is right.

But, I heard he is a butter wanker.

Mavyn wrote:
But, I heard he is a butter wanker.

Who isn't?

j5 wrote:Who isn't?

Well.

I'll get back to you on that.

spacegirlag wrote:As someone who is new to the shirt.woot forums, I think it's important to point out that some of us (I'm of course speaking for people I've never met or interacted with, so perhaps I'm a bit presumptuous) don't post much because we aren't sure that our opinions are warranted or welcome. I see a lot of the same names posting in the community, and those are a lot the same names I see creating shirts for the site. I'm not even remotely an artist. I'm only here because I like the site, and I enjoy getting the opportunity to purchase original and inventive designs. If us newbies felt like we were wanted, and like we were expected to post our opinions (even if we're not artists and don't speak the lingo), the discussion boards would probably be more active.

I just want to jump in and say thanks for posting this. I attempted, quite poorly, to state this elsewhere. You have a much more articulate, composed description of an issue I've noticed.

As for the later comments about what happened this past derby - I am sorry that I misinterpreted, overreacted, and oversnarked in response to midgerock's comments. As I admitted later on, this newbie has a lot to learn and I learned a lot in just the past few days. I will work on offering constructive comments and reigning in the gut reactions to things I read. I'm sorry.

aerc712 wrote:stuff

It wasn't just you, and it wasn't just midgerock's posts, so no worries there.

Also, grrrr! Stupid kids these days!!!

j5 wrote:It wasn't just you, and it wasn't just midgerock's posts, so no worries there.

Also, grrrr! Stupid kids these days!!!

Get off of my lawn!!! Pull up your pants, too.

I think this last derby's critique misfires just came from new people not understanding how Shirt.Woot works ^^;. I think we all make that mistake at least once. You guys remember when I first showed up... Lawdy lawdy. 9_9; <--the mouth that wouldn't quit

I thought everyone did a great job in critiquing. Im happy to see artists talking a bit more about the details in artwork. Im trying to lend what I can, but eh, Im not perfect at giving suggestions. It does spark some good conversation though, which I enjoy ^^.

bassanimation wrote:You guys remember when I first showed up... Lawdy lawdy. 9_9; <--the mouth that wouldn't quit

*vein in forehead throbs painfully*

But hey, you turned out to be a pretty awesome community member and interesting (though slightly cute mouse obsessed)artist.

bluetuba wrote:... (though slightly cute mouse obsessed)artist.

You say that like it's a bad thing ...

<-- bought Karni Ratta last week. Also have The Tiny Guardian. Nevermind the six Woot shirts that have mice on them too. And of course, the genius (NARF!) and the insane megalomaniac ...

bluetuba wrote:*vein in forehead throbs painfully*

But hey, you turned out to be a pretty awesome community member and interesting (though slightly cute mouse obsessed)artist.

I can't help myself...I love me some rodents. I apologize for inflicting my obsession upon the masses. >_<;;

My early days on Woot were petty tough. Sometimes it takes awhile to learn the 'culture' of a place. After awhile you get to know how things go, and people know how you go, etc. It gets easier to understand points of view and find common ground.

Sorry again for my rodents... (stares at screen at rodent painting for class...and work...) Maybe I should seek help... #_#

Narfcake wrote:You say that like it's a bad thing ...

<-- bought Karni Ratta last week. Also have The Tiny Guardian. Nevermind the six Woot shirts that have mice on them too. And of course, the genius (NARF!) and the insane megalomaniac ...

Yay, thanks for supporting my masses of meeces, Narf! :3

bassanimation wrote:
My early days on Woot were petty tough. Sometimes it takes awhile to learn the 'culture' of a place. After awhile you get to know how things go, and people know how you go, etc. It gets easier to understand points of view and find common ground.

I remember that you accidentally started drama on one of my designs when you were new! And then you messaged me to apologize. And I was all like, "Whatevs, I don't even care" and you were all like, "That's cool, yo" and I was all like "Pshyeah, Wooters be crazy" and you were all like "Katie Kaboom, you so cool, I'm gonna tell my rats about you" and I was like "Hell's yeah! You rock, B!"

...ok, that's not exactly how it happened. But it's pretty close. ;)

bassanimation wrote:
Sorry again for my rodents... (stares at screen at rodent painting for class...and work...) Maybe I should seek help... #_#

Oh you don't need to apologize, I may not be in the cute rodent fan club, but I appreciate the creativity you bring to it. At least you aren't drawing the same cute animal over and over on slightly different backgrounds. ;)

I did kinda like your pirate mouse and the freaky cat eels. ;)

BootsBoots wrote:I think, while well thought out critiques might be less of a blow to an artist's ego, hearing that someone thinks "your design blows" is totally valid. When you put your work out there for the public to see, you're kind of giving permission for people to hate it and tell you so. After all, you hope that people will see your work and tell you they love it. I don't see why negative comments have to have some kind of constructive tone, when positive ones can just be "Oh My Gookie! Want!" ...that's it.

I kinda feel like I'm intruding on the Woot-legends' thread, but I've been around for a while and had a chance to peruse some old threads. Part of me feels like I missed out on the fun, the threads don't seem to be nearly as controversial these days.

I think a lot of it has to do with what Boots mentioned. Personally, I would love to get any feedback at all on my designs... even though, or perhaps because, my designs are terribly sub-par. Though it may seem like it would be obvious that your design isn't very good when it has 10 votes, I would welcome even a "give up and take up knitting" comment. Just to know that you really do need to work on your compositions, rather than feeling like your design is the bomb, but is just getting buried under the mass of other designs. And if a mean, trolling comment is welcome, a thoughtful critique makes my day.

I'm not the best about giving critiques, but I'll definitely try to do better now that I know there are others out there looking for them... even though I truly doubt I would ever have anything helpful to say to anyone reading this thread. You guys are all amazing already. We wannabes need a wake-up call now and again, though.

BootsBoots wrote:

...ok, that's not exactly how it happened. But it's pretty close. ;)

Dont forget the dragons. There were also dragons!

And my rats do know about you, Boots. They love my "Raisins Ruin Everything" shirt, because, well, ratty poos are commonly known as 'raisins'. So they do ruin everything! :D :D :D

@Dreadwood: Dont be disheartened if you're not receiving a lot of attention here yet. It takes a bit of time to stick out in this overwhelming crowd. :\ I remember when my friend and I first started subbing, it took a good bit before people began to remember us. It seems like commenting more and being a part of the discussions will help people navigate to your work. Even if its a "Hey, this person said something I didnt like, where is their shirt I must see it!", kind of effect. There's also still plenty of community members who dont beat around any sugartrees with the artists. There hasnt been as much of the extreme drama, but there's still pot stirrers for sure.