Shirt.Woot

dear Woot,


- i like the average Derby Fog shirt better than the shirts you pull out of your hat on week days.

- Derby Winners seem to sell better too.

- each derby leaves an unserved audience empty handed, cause the shirt they'd buy didn't get printed.
that's only logical, as some like cute, some like camp, some want pop references, and some prefer smart designs that suit the theme.
also, people prefer designs they connect to, cause they're relevant to who they are.

so, why not print more Derby shirts, and less of those other designs?
you could either have an editor's choice picked from the shirts that didn't win, or simply print the top 4...

(and BTW, what's the rationale behind printing low selling non-Derby shirts? are they cheaper perhaps?)

cptgone wrote:dear Woot,


- i like the average Derby Fog shirt better than the shirts you pull out of your hat on week days.

Dear Woot,

Personaly, when I buy shirts for myself (rather than as gifts) they're more likely to be daily prints than derby offerings. Please keep them coming!


All snark aside though, I feel that Woot continues to try and offer a mix of daily and derby prints so that they truly can continue offering something that appeals to everyone. Derby voters, in general, seem to vote for 3 things almost exclusively: cute animals, pop culture, or generic nature scenes chock full of glowy-shiny-half-tones.

However, there is still a market out there for quirky, unusual, strange, unique, creative, outlandish, bizarre, etc. The sales numbers may not always be as high, but I, for one, am really happy to see Woot continuing to take a chance on designs that the majority would never vote into the fog, but still find a minority audience.

IMHO, the day Woot swaps over to a "derby only" system is probably the day I stop checking the site + purchasing shirts. I *like* the element of surprise on weekdays, and I hope there are still some others in the Woot community who feel the same.

endangeredomega wrote:I *like* the element of surprise on weekdays, and I hope there are still some others in the Woot community who feel the same.

Yup.
Also, I have decided that the dailies are better (to me) because they are not designed under a tight timeline and therefore the concept is more fully formed and the execution has fewer mistakes.

looks like 6 of the shirts in the top 20 are daily shirts. The #1 shirt until it was recently ceased and desisted was a daily as well.

So, though there are more derby shirts in the top 20, its not like all the daily designs are unpopular and get reckoned immediately.

Besides, on a selfish note, I work slowly so I am really only good at making daily designs.

ochopika wrote:

Besides, on a selfish note, I work slowly so I am really only good at making daily designs.

This ^^^

I too am a slow artist, which means I rarely have enough time to make a good derby entry. I rather like the daily shirt options, and it does offer more surprise than the derby shirts.

Then again I also admit that I liked the 4th place Derby pick from a couple weeks ago. That was awesome! I think a few 4th places scattered around is pretty cool. But I do like the dailies as well.

I think bassanimation and ochopika make a good point, and I'd be interested in hearing other artists weigh in. Do many of you look at the daily subs as a chance to produce the best/most interesting work you can, without the outside pressures of the time limit, as well as "Will this garner the most votes from the average Wooter?"

Is it just personal bias that leads me to view most derbies as an exercise in catering to the "lowest common denominator"?

endangeredomega wrote:I think bassanimation and ochopika make a good point, and I'd be interested in hearing other artists weigh in. Do many of you look at the daily subs as a chance to produce the best/most interesting work you can, without the outside pressures of the time limit, as well as "Will this garner the most votes from the average Wooter?"

Is it just personal bias that leads me to view most derbies as an exercise in catering to the "lowest common denominator"?

I know you just said "other artists weigh in", but I'd like to add another thought. Usually my daily ideas are originally derby sketches that I decide not to submit. I don't submit them because I feel that they won't stand out enough to someone who's browsing through a hundred or so design thumbnails.

It's not that derby designs have to cater to the "lowest common denominator", but they certainly have to be bright and shiny, or have some really eye-catching element in the thumbnail.

Daily designs also have the advantage of an art director giving advice and allowing changes to be made.

endangeredomega wrote:outside pressures of the time limit, as well as "Will this garner the most votes from the average Wooter?"

that's a very good point.
(BTW, i didn't know the daily shirts were subbed to, i figured they were commissioned instead)

maybe i'm just frustrated seeing all those wonderful designs that don't make it.

ochopika wrote:I work slowly so I am really only good at making daily designs.

sounds like an exaggeration to me (e.g. i'd never had guessed that your They See Me Rollin’ took more time than Jabba the Fluff)

endangeredomega wrote:

Is it just personal bias that leads me to view most derbies as an exercise in catering to the "lowest common denominator"?

I think perhaps the derbies do leave a taste in one's mouth, good or bad. This is why I think scattered, surprise 4th places are fine, but not always. If an editor really feels there's a kickass 4th shirt they want to print, that would be awesome.

Also, remember that the dailies are all dependent on us as artists. Woot needs artists to sub dailies, so always think about that option for your art. If there's something you miss seeing, try making a design in that vein and sub away. I really enjoy the dailies. Some of my very favorite Woots are daily shirts

cptgone wrote:sounds like an exaggeration to me (e.g. i'd never had guessed that your They See Me Rollin’ took more time than Jabba the Fluff)

lol! Touche. They did take about the same amount of time for different reasons. The turtle took a little longer than it looks because it was tricky have him rolling down from something while making the composition straight and horizontal. Maybe another artist would have nailed it on the first sketch, but not Ochopika...because that's how I...nevermind.

ochopika wrote:I know you just said "other artists weigh in", but I'd like to add another thought. Usually my daily ideas are originally derby sketches that I decide not to submit. I don't submit them because I feel that they won't stand out enough to someone who's browsing through a hundred or so design thumbnails.

It's not that derby designs have to cater to the "lowest common denominator", but they certainly have to be bright and shiny, or have some really eye-catching element in the thumbnail.

Daily designs also have the advantage of an art director giving advice and allowing changes to be made.

Boom boom boom, these points are like gold.

All the dailies I have ever subbed are former derby entries that I didnt enter. Either I couldnt finish on time, or I didn't think they could compete in the current field. You guys have no idea how many unfinished derby designs are sitting on my hard drive or in my sketchbooks, hahah. Often times, the derby will begin, and I see whats going up and my confidence deflates. I end up shelving my design, either for a later derby or a daily option.

Also, Ocho is right about the art direction. The Woot staff can see good in many different types of themes and designs. They're not just there to pick the shiniest, or the cutest, or the most colorful pop reference. They're looking for the good in all types of stuff.

Lastly, the nice thing about the derby themes, is you can take that theme and implement it anytime you want. Spend days on it, weeks even, heck take a year to refine it. Then sub it when it's ready and chances are it'll make a great daily tee ^_^.

That's what I said.

ochopika wrote:Daily designs also have the advantage of an art director giving advice

ha ha! only if you're good and your submission is worthy of salvage. i subbed something once and all i got was "thanks but no thanks."

//retreats back to peanut gallery

no1 wrote:ha ha! only if you're good and your submission is worthy of salvage. i subbed something once and all i got was "thanks but no thanks."

//retreats back to peanut gallery

hey, peanut, maybe if you'd subbed more than one as a daily you might have gotten a different result.

Of the three or four I've subbed as dailies, I had very different rejections/ err/ thanks but no thankses. One was completely ignored, one was "no thanks", one was "this isn't the style we're pursuing now (or something similar)", and the last was a couple of emails from Barbara with some fairly detailed commentary.

Cleverly, I've drifted off and quit subbing them. mebe I should revisit that avenue.

Josephus wrote:hey, peanut, maybe if you'd subbed more than one as a daily you might have gotten a different result.

Of the three or four I've subbed as dailies, I had very different rejections/ err/ thanks but no thankses. One was completely ignored, one was "no thanks", one was "this isn't the style we're pursuing now (or something similar)", and the last was a couple of emails from Barbara with some fairly detailed commentary.

mabe if i had gotten more detailed feedback i might've subbed more. without feedback, i have no clue where to start to improve... no direction to take.

i bet the one to which you got detailed commentary was pretty good. good enuf to warrant it.

Josephus wrote:Cleverly, I've drifted off and quit subbing them. mebe I should revisit that avenue.

be careful not to get run over, the buses run pretty fast on that avenue.

Derby entries can be exciting because of the quick turnaround, but it also feels a lot like being back at work. Most of the posts in the pre-derby thread turn into a massive land grab. There is a scramble to get sketches up so "first" can be claimed like sticking a flag in the moon. Also, staying up all night working on a half-developed idea just so it can be ready by the start of the derby is a major pain. Daily shirts afford the time to sleep on an idea, fully flesh it out and tweak it along the way - without giving you a stress headache in the process.

I tend to buy more derby shirts than dailies only because I have more days to think about whether or not I really want the shirt. I browse the derby often and vote for shirts I like.

I'm not an impulse shopper, and I live on a budget. Sometimes even by the time the derby shirts print, though I may want it, it's no longer in my budget. I have bought a handful of dailies.

There have been MANY shirts that have been reckoned that I have regretted not buying. By the time I decided to get it, or it fit in the budget, it was gone.

All of that said, I like the system the way it is. If it was only derby shirts, we would see a significant drop in variety. Not a good thing.

I'm loving the new weekly sales, but I beg of you, Woot, PLEASE make all the weekly sales choices available on short sleeve T's. I'm sure others are loving the other items available, but this middle aged woman wooter does NOT need long sleeves, hoodies, etc. I want T's, and I want the chance to buy some I've missed.

It's all about ME ME ME!!! I WANT I WANT I WANT!!!

Ok, I'll quit whining...for a minute anyway.

specsmachine wrote:Derby entries can be exciting because of the quick turnaround, but it also feels a lot like being back at work. Most of the posts in the pre-derby thread turn into a massive land grab. There is a scramble to get sketches up so "first" can be claimed like sticking a flag in the moon. Also, staying up all night working on a half-developed idea just so it can be ready by the start of the derby is a major pain. Daily shirts afford the time to sleep on an idea, fully flesh it out and tweak it along the way - without giving you a stress headache in the process.

Although I'm not suggesting a change so much as I am typing off the top of my head...I wonder if some of the negatives that we're hearing from the artists in this thread could be addressed by releasing the derby theme a week earlier, but just to the artists, not on the blog. This would give you 8 days to come up with a design instead of 1.

dcroe05 wrote:Although I'm not suggesting a change so much as I am typing off the top of my head...I wonder if some of the negatives that we're hearing from the artists in this thread could be addressed by releasing the derby theme a week earlier, but just to the artists, not on the blog. This would give you 8 days to come up with a design instead of 1.

I write for a blog that gives creative writing advice. For the past few years we've had a weekly writing prompt that came out on Thursday, and expected submissions on Friday. Participation went way up when we started posting the prompt on Sunday instead. Yes, that panicked sense of immediacy (which can be fun) was diminished, but the quality of the submissions went up and participation went up.

An interesting point, but how would Woot decide who the artists are who receive the theme a week early? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your suggestion, but it sounds a lot like "you have to already be in the game to play". By favouring artists already submitting to Woot, rather than trying to attract new blood/new entries, the Derby seems like it would become even more homogenous?

endangeredomega wrote:An interesting point, but how would Woot decide who the artists are who receive the theme a week early? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your suggestion, but it sounds a lot like "you have to already be in the game to play". By favouring artists already submitting to Woot, rather than trying to attract new blood/new entries, the Derby seems like it would become even more homogenous?

IDK. Obviously some thought would have to go into it to avoid what you're talking about. Maybe nothing more innocuous than an artists' thread. Post the upcoming threads, disable comments on that thread, so people don't do the lobbying/land grab thing that specsmachine was talking about.

My thought wasn't that watchers wouldn't be allowed to see upcoming themes, just that it wouldn't be announced on the blog.

Personally, I've seen some beautiful designs in recent derbies that lost votes because the artist made mistakes on the original sub, so they subbed a 2nd version. Ramyb's Winter derby entry of Vivaldi's Winter movement was beautiful, but he made a musical transcription mistake because he had to hurry.

But to me the biggest argument in favor of something like this is that some damn good artists seem to be saying they skip the derbies because the timeline is so short.

dcroe05 wrote:But to me the biggest argument in favor of something like this is that some damn good artists seem to be saying they skip the derbies because the timeline is so short.

if they're good artists, they should be subbing for dailies, where their talents can be unfettered by the shackles of the derby.

no1 wrote:if they're good artists, they should be subbing for dailies, where their talents can be unfettered by the shackles of the derby.

According to this thread, they are. That wasn't the point I was making.

dcroe05 wrote:According to this thread, they are. That wasn't the point I was making.

your point seems to assume that the derby needs to open up more to good artists. i am countering what i think is your unspoken assumption. good artists already have access to printing via dailies, and woot already prints (again via dailies) designs that good artists can take their time with. derby prints are still selling well with the artists that do manage to submit. from woot's point of view, what is broken that needs to be changed?

no1 wrote:your point seems to assume that the derby needs to open up more to good artists.

I don't believe it does. I felt I made clear that I wasn't really, proposing a change. I was simply joining in a discussion in which several good artists had given reasons why they don't participate in the derby, by tossing out an idea. I am not making the argument that anything needs to change.

dcroe05 wrote:I don't believe it does. I felt I made clear that I wasn't really, proposing a change. I was simply joining in a discussion in which several good artists had given reasons why they don't participate in the derby, by tossing out an idea. I am not making the argument that anything needs to change.

*shrug* ok.

Can we then assume, based on the anecdotal evidence presented herein, that the art direction staff is so covered up with daily submissions that they can and do apply a higher standard than what is reflected in the weekly derby entries?
Unless something has changed in the past few months, I don't think we can.
I do believe, or at leas hope, that higher standards are enforced, but I can't say if they are awash in submissions.

So, what am I saying?
Submit more dailies, you artists you.