Shirt.Woot

citizencoyote wrote:I think it's more of a desire not to feed the obvious troll. Seki was burned by not only the Woot community but the DA and con communities as well. Her reappearance here is solely for her own entertainment.

That said, Woot I am disappoint.

You statement fairly well sums up how I feel about it. Why should I feed Seki acting like a troll? One of her "designs" popping up in a side sale, when there are plenty of other music-themed shirts out there was disappointing enough. Her actually commenting here is further disappointing. Does it disappoint me in her? No. There will be no ressurection from the ash heap from which emerges a firey, deep and passionate respect.

My disappointment lies entirely with Woot on this one. It was a poor decision on their part to not only bring back a print from her, but to never have banned her in the first place following the Nomination incident. She could have come in and said, "I did it for the lulz!" At this point this issue is woot's choices, not her childish trolling.

As time passes I'm finding myself more disappointed with woot. I stuck with woot when they raised the prices, and again when they switched to an inferior shirt supplier. But now they are back to selling shirts from an artist who seems to have no issue with taking others ideas and using them as her own. I understand the need to make a profit but this is ridiculous. I guess it is futile to expect a staff member would be willing to speak up and defend why they think it is okay to support someone who stole a design and used woot to sell that stolen design.

After today I guess I'll be another wooter who will be saving myself a lot of money by cutting back on the shirts I buy.

artchase wrote:..I guess it is futile to expect a staff member would be willing to speak up and defend why they think it is okay to support someone who stole a design and used woot to sell that stolen design.

We all remember what was TGentry's stand when this went down. Does he have any opinion now? Or he's under some NDA?

j5 wrote:Price hike was 01/17
Supplier Switch was 02/21

Thank you. I landed at woot right between the two changes. I dislike the change from AA. While I question the fact that I wear a WL in their shirts, the softness of the fabric more than made up for it.

chennai8 wrote:We all remember what was TGentry's stand when this went down. Does he have any opinion now? Or he's under some NDA?

I would assume NDA. I wouldn't be surprised if there are staffers who aren't too happy about this, and other chages that have come down the pike but they can't exactly go around telling you how unhappy they are about it.

If I worked for woot, I'd likely enjoy working there, even if I didn't like some decisions that were made. So why jeopordize that job by jumping into the fray unless you could give a measured response? I may not like this, but at the same time I appreciate that Woot staff are at a job. Not really good for the employment to bad mouth the employer on their own website.

Artist A: "Hey, I'm totally getting away with ripping off other people's ideas over there at Woot now, you should come back!"

Artist B: "I dunno... they kind of hate me over there..."

Artist A: "HA! They hate me too but they're all just a bunch of haters! It's like drawing your own money!"

Artist B: "OK, I'll drop in and screw with them. Let's see what that does."

taternuggets wrote:Artist A: "Hey, I'm totally getting away with ripping off other people's ideas over there at Woot now, you should come back!"

Artist B: "I dunno... they kind of hate me over there..."

Artist A: "HA! They hate me too but they're all just a bunch of haters! It's like drawing your own money!"

Artist B: "OK, I'll drop in and screw with them. Let's see what that does."

Okay. I totally laughed at the, "Drawing your own money," line.

Anyone know what happened to the long sleeve tees? I bought a bunch of them in the earlier weekly events, but the last few events no longer have long sleeves? They were great since they were still printed on AA blanks. I'm guessing they were too expensive to be profitable?

profbrendan wrote:
1. By Seki posting here and it not being deleted, she's proven she wasn't banned, at least not permanently

Maybe they just put her on a 17,530 hour probation for stealing.

spektaur wrote:Anyone know what happened to the long sleeve tees? I bought a bunch of them in the earlier weekly events, but the last few events no longer have long sleeves? They were great since they were still printed on AA blanks. I'm guessing they were too expensive to be profitable?

Or maybe it's just because it's summertime. Also they don't do every category every week, they don't have zipper hoodies or totes or posters every week either, that doesn't mean it's too expensive or something.

spektaur wrote:Anyone know what happened to the long sleeve tees? I bought a bunch of them in the earlier weekly events, but the last few events no longer have long sleeves? They were great since they were still printed on AA blanks. I'm guessing they were too expensive to be profitable?

As this is not Westeros, winter came and went and the long sleeves followed.

sekiyoku wrote:Lol... I was never banned from woot, and I didn't intentionally steal another artist's design either. Thought of the idea, thought it would be cute, did a search and nothing came up, so just went with it. I had no idea it was someone's thing, otherwise there's no way I would have ever done it as a design. And yeah, not banned, just coincidentally became too focused on other things in life, and too lazy to come to forums and defend myself. It's like way too hard to defend yourself online anyway. :p

*Suddenly becomes a large, sassy woman* Ooo, gurl!! You got a lot of nerve showin' yo bum around here.

taternuggets wrote:Artist B: "OK, I'll drop in and screw with them. Let's see what that does."

But the gov't doesn't like it when you plagiarize their artwork. And they don't care if it's a coincidence.

I've been reading through the comments on the artwork that was stolen. Fascinating. THe original artist was very well prepared when approaching woot with the claim and very rational in the presentation of the evidence.

loridi wrote:I've been reading through the comments on the artwork that was stolen. Fascinating. THe original artist was very well prepared when approaching woot with the claim and very rational in the presentation of the evidence.

Agreed. Which is why it's rather disheartening to see Seki back here again, and one of her old shirts for sale to boot. Makes you wonder if anything was actually accomplished with all that evidence and the alleged eyewitness accounts, doesn't it?

profbrendan wrote:Agreed. Which is why it's rather disheartening to see Seki back here again, and one of her old shirts for sale to boot. Makes you wonder if anything was actually accomplished with all that evidence and the alleged eyewitness accounts, doesn't it?

It does make me wonder and question purchasing here. Especially they are rewarding someone who got caught and still shows no remorse over what happened, as her recent post clearly illustrates.

februarystar27 wrote:It's possible. They reprinted Sweet Dreams Are Made of These on the last side sale. I was actually surprised at the lack of drama over that one.

So I went back and looked, and Sweet Dreams are Made of These wasn't a sekiyoku design, but a cheesesandwich one. Assuming this must be another Copy issue artist, I searched for both user names and found the following:

One Cheer for Broccolli Dec 9, 2008
(Note this is almost 2 years before 'world nom-ination' on July 18, 2010)

oopsiedaisy
I think someone will be wanting their share of the profits.
{Animated gif of shirt morphing into stolen image}

eHalcyon
Now I'm sad. And that website has "copyright" notices on it.


sekiyoku
Wow, really?

That's depressing.

Especially because it was unnecessary. The shirt probably would have been cuter if the broccoli weren't so realistic.

What generally happens in this case?

blahmcblah
Absolutely nothing.

AdderXYU
Generally in about another hour someone with a blank box will be all "Who cares if it's copyrighted? U can't copyright broccoli. It's just a shirt and I like it so F.U. I hope this sells out because it's awesome and you need lives."

in another 10 days, it reckons with no resolution

sekiyoku
I'll be keeping my eye out for that. :p

bounty42 wrote:So I went back and looked, and Sweet Dreams are Made of These wasn't a sekiyoku design, but a cheesesandwich one. Assuming this must be another Copy issue artist, I searched for both user names and found the following:

One Cheer for Broccolli Dec 9, 2008
(Note this is almost 2 years before 'world nom-ination' on July 18, 2010)

oopsiedaisy
I think someone will be wanting their share of the profits.
{Animated gif of shirt morphing into stolen image}

eHalcyon
Now I'm sad. And that website has "copyright" notices on it.


sekiyoku
Wow, really?

That's depressing.

Especially because it was unnecessary. The shirt probably would have been cuter if the broccoli weren't so realistic.

What generally happens in this case?

blahmcblah
Absolutely nothing.

AdderXYU
Generally in about another hour someone with a blank box will be all "Who cares if it's copyrighted? U can't copyright broccoli. It's just a shirt and I like it so F.U. I hope this sells out because it's awesome and you need lives."

in another 10 days, it reckons with no resolution

sekiyoku
I'll be keeping my eye out for that. :p

---

And I had to go read pretty much the whole thread because it was bugging me to no end to find out when woot paid for the copyrighted image. I thought I'd never find out (sheesh can Joel ever avoid answering, poltics next I think) but some nice wooter emailed the photographer and found out when (after the sale started).

Wow! The cull-tivator is indiscriminate today.

I've had some time to ponder my thoughts on this side sale and figure out how to say what I need to say. I've decided to keep it fairly short (for me):

Dear shirt.woot! Powers-That-Be,
I am sure that you are quite comfortable resting your heads on pillows filled with money, but in the morning you will find no reflections in the mirror as you have sold your souls. Integrity should still mean something in this world. Sadly, it does not seem to mean something to you. Remember.... "the love of money is the root of all evil."

**drops head in sorrow**

taternuggets wrote:Artist A: "Hey, I'm totally getting away with ripping off other people's ideas over there at Woot now, you should come back!"

Artist B: "I dunno... they kind of hate me over there..."

Artist A: "HA! They hate me too but they're all just a bunch of haters! It's like drawing your own money!"

Artist B: "OK, I'll drop in and screw with them. Let's see what that does."

Honestly, assuming A and B = C(ouple), then it probably went more like, "ROLFOLOCOPTORAPTOR. I know we've been just using your designs under my name for the last two years since that 'little thing', but why not just drop in and tweak some neeps just for the heck of it!" *high five*

chennai8 wrote:1) Wooters enjoy $10 shirt, Let's make it $12
2) Wooter enjoy AA, no no that won't do it, Let's change the blanks
3) When we're there, Let's say it's made from Honduras, but import from Bangladesh and other famous sweat shops around the world.
4) Hey, I still see some people passionate enough to stick around, what can we do?
*ding light bulb*, Bring back Seki's shirt. That oughta drive these nutters away.

It does make me laugh quite a lot. As with most things if you speak out or take an unpopular stance there are always those ready and waiting to throw up, "lolz lose the tinfoil hat everything is fine," followed quickly by the, "shush guyzzz logic not allowed in this thread," when no one making those comments actually used any.

It's simple to take a mojority opinion and find yourself supported. You require no evidence in support because the crowd already believes you and who cares about pesky facts anyway?

I quote the list because I think it's perfectly relevant. There are tons who would like to conflate the fact that woot employs good, well meaning people to mean the Woot! the subsidiary of Amazon is a good well meaning company. They are not the same thing.

Throughout it's history woot has been more than willing to continue selling stolen designs as long as the rights could be quickly and efficiently procured. They've also been increasingly willing to expand the number of designs using other people's IP while lowering their standards for what constitutes fair use. Some designs have already been challenged (The Dark Knight) and removed.

What results is that it is impossible to argue with any evidence to support that woot doesn't care about anything but sales. There's no question that the $2 increase and the 6,000 sales cap dramatically improved margins. Even if you count Narf's estimates for what woot paid for an AA blank (and I don't because I think it's a gross overestimation based on woot's volume).

Conservatively though the $2 increase and the switch to Anvil increased woot's net gain per t-shirt by around $5. That's ENORMOUS for bulk sales. It's 50% of the original purchase price!

And that's why seki is back. They never cared that she stole the design. They cared that they were facing litigation because of it. Woot has always taken a print first and collect money and pull shirt later after we have to approach.

There are two possible outcomes to the World Nomination that I can forsee (mostly because I can't remember if it happened before or after they were acquired by Amazon). One is, "Look at our big scary Amazon legal team...you can't possibly afford to litigate and we can afford to keep this in the courts for years before you recoup a dime. We'll take down the shirt and you go away, capice?" The second is that there was an actual settlement where money changed hands somewhere along the way. Both will be covered by NDA and we will never know.

But infringement there and whatever settlement took place only affects that design. Woot knows it will sell a bunch of music is life shirts and it's going to because money is all that matters. Moral character of their designers has never played a role (see ramy).

bounty42 wrote:So I went back and looked, and Sweet Dreams are Made of These wasn't a sekiyoku design, but a cheesesandwich one. Assuming this must be another Copy issue artist, I searched for both user names and found the following:

One Cheer for Broccolli Dec 9, 2008
(Note this is almost 2 years before 'world nom-ination' on July 18, 2010)

oopsiedaisy
I think someone will be wanting their share of the profits.
{Animated gif of shirt morphing into stolen image}

eHalcyon
Now I'm sad. And that website has "copyright" notices on it.


sekiyoku
Wow, really?

That's depressing.

Especially because it was unnecessary. The shirt probably would have been cuter if the broccoli weren't so realistic.

What generally happens in this case?

blahmcblah
Absolutely nothing.

AdderXYU
Generally in about another hour someone with a blank box will be all "Who cares if it's copyrighted? U can't copyright broccoli. It's just a shirt and I like it so F.U. I hope this sells out because it's awesome and you need lives."

in another 10 days, it reckons with no resolution

sekiyoku
I'll be keeping my eye out for that. :p

---

*sigh* There are three tees I would like to have, but $60, even if I hadn't blown my budget, would still be too much.

anyone know what that actual messenger bag looks like? description doesn't really cut it as in what it looks like inside, the clasp, etc.

I have decided that my desire to get my wife a shirt that I think that she would like (plus my desire to shop a month early for anniversary gifts) makes me want to put aside fustration I might feel about the certain print that is being sold.

That said, on the yellow "Noted" design, I want to get one for my wife. However, I would like to get an idea of fit. Would there be a female in the audience who would mind private messaging me so that I get a little help on sizes?

Doh. I forgot this was going until my clock just rang ten. Sure enough, I missed it (was thinking we might have a 12 dollar shirt sale). Anyone have a Decomp or Sound Wave they don't want?

Closing numbers for this event:

1. Music Pirate - Sold 126
2. Wave Function - Sold 61
3. Roots Rock - Sold 98
4. Muertocorrido - Sold 86
5. Hootenanny - Sold 85
6. ROK-101 - Sold 53
7. The Filthy Hippies - Sold 179
8. Music is Life - Sold 150
9. Soundwaves - Sold 119
10. Decomposition - Sold 67
11. The Madness Of Miss Stereo - Sold 96
12. Noted - Sold 140
13. Clefhanger Remix - Sold 36
14. Vinyl Kid - Sold 79
15. Music Pirate Messenger Bag - Sold 35
16. Wave Function Messenger Bag - Sold 11
17. ROK-101 Tote - Sold 10
18. Hootenanny Tote - Sold 47
19. Soundwaves Tote - Sold 9
20. Soundwaves Pullover Hoodie - Sold 21
21. ROK-101 Pullover Hoodie - Sold 6
22. Decomposition Pullover Hoodie - Sold 24
23. Muertocorrido Zip-Up Hoodie - Sold 45
24. The Filthy Hippies Zip-Up Hoodie - Sold 34
25. New, from Entropy Records Zip-Up Hoodie - Sold 40
26. Music is Life Zip-Up Hoodie - Sold 68
27. The Madness of Miss Stereo Zip-Up Hoodie - Sold 25
28. The Madness of Miss Stereo Poster - Sold 19
29. Dark Side of Oz Listening Party Poster - Sold 53
30. Roots Rock Poster - Sold 4

Narfcake wrote:Closing numbers for this event:

7. The Filthy Hippies - Sold 179
8. Music is Life - Sold 150
12. Noted - Sold 140
1. Music Pirate - Sold 126
9. Soundwaves - Sold 119

So dispite all the controversy, the design in contention still managed to place 2nd, and had as far as I can tell one of the best showings the side sale has seen in a while.

This may be the end result of a money grubbing corperate enterprize, but you do have to admit they chose the designs that sold.

I'm not sure it's that impressive, considering they had a specific shelf life, there was now demand as they were "rare" in the sense that they weren't currently available before or after the sale - isn't 100-150 the sales of a good shirt on the reckoning?

Darquis wrote:I'm not sure it's that impressive, considering they had a specific shelf life, there was now demand as they were "rare" in the sense that they weren't currently available before or after the sale - isn't 100-150 the sales of a good shirt on the reckoning?

Last week, a shirt needed over 19 sales/day to survive, which means that they need to sell at least 133 to survive the reckoning. With that said, only three of them could be considered as having "good" sales figures.

Darquis wrote:I'm not sure it's that impressive, considering they had a specific shelf life, there was now demand as they were "rare" in the sense that they weren't currently available before or after the sale - isn't 100-150 the sales of a good shirt on the reckoning?

Depends. Lately we've been running about a 20 DSR (that's shirts/day) to stay in the Reckoning. That would be about 140. Shirts that had good weeks prior can do less, top 3 shirts never do under 300. The point wasn't that the number was good or bad in relation to the reckoning though, but that there were literally HUNDREDS of posts talking about how morally reprehensible even considering a print by this artist was. Most of them were so vitriolic that the mods had to scrub them from the boards. I personally lost 3 posts in the cleaning, and I'm the mildest of the group. There were people threatening to boycott and leave woot. Some may have actually done it, that sort of thing is hard to track.

All of that, and it's still a top seller, not a 5 sale looser like I'd have expected after that.

bounty42 wrote:
All of that, and it's still a top seller, not a 5 sale looser like I'd have expected after that.

Alternatively, think of how high sales might have been for "Music is Life" if we didn't all make such a fuss. I was tracking sales for it day-by-day, and it sold very, very few shirts Monday-Wednesday, when we were all kicking up a lot of dust; most of its sales were on the weekend when the thread had gone quiet.

neuropsychosocial wrote:Alternatively, think of how high sales might have been for "Music is Life" if we didn't all make such a fuss. I was tracking sales for it day-by-day, and it sold very, very few shirts Monday-Wednesday, when we were all kicking up a lot of dust; most of its sales were on the weekend when the thread had gone quiet.

I don't think it mattered a hill-o-beans.
Weekend sales were likely due to Friday paychecks.

j5 wrote:I don't think it mattered a hill-o-beans.
Weekend sales were likely due to Friday paychecks.

Ot the influx we always get to see Derby prints, and people who hold off on the shirts they can buy until Sunday to see if there's a better shirt before Friday.

Aw, come on you guys! By dark o'clock on a Thursday night/Friday morning, I need to retain some faith in the human species. (By Friday afternoon, I'm usually solidly in the "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" camp.)

neuropsychosocial wrote:Aw, come on you guys! By dark o'clock on a Thursday night/Friday morning, I need to retain some faith in the human species. (By Friday afternoon, I'm usually solidly in the "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" camp.)

I have faith in the human species. The same way I have faith that the Great White will strike, the Phiranaha will eat, and the Mamba will kill. It's not a lack of faith that calls the skorpian the skorpian in the tale of the skorpian and the frog. (Unless I'm speeling ti wrong again, then it's teh Skorpian and the SubZero.

bounty42 wrote:I have faith in the human species. The same way I have faith that the Great White will strike, the Phiranaha will eat, and the Mamba will kill.

I certainly see your point, but that is not the kind of faith in humanity that allows me to get out of bed every day after the year that I've had and give my emotional and psychological energy to people who demand significant quantities of both.

I concede the general point about sales of "Music is Life;" I would like to believe, however, that some people chose not to buy it based on their ethical principles.

neuropsychosocial wrote:I concede the general point about sales of "Music is Life;" I would like to believe, however, that some people chose not to buy it based on their ethical principles.

Make no mistake, there are lots of people who fall into that catgory, the only thing preventing more from doing so is the relative obscurity of the details surrounding the events. Relatively few people read the forums to begin with.

neuropsychosocial wrote:

For me, the single worst part of the past 53 weeks is the extent to which my faith in people has been shaken. SNIP

I concede the general point about sales of "Music is Life;" I would like to believe, however, that some people chose not to buy it based on their ethical principles.

Please do NOT lose hope. Do NOT lose faith. There ARE more good people in this world than bad. The bad get more press. And when we get hurt it's easy to paint all those like the one who hurt us with the same broad brush, but try to do the opposite. Paint that broad brush based on all those who have been kind, helpful, polite, sweet, funny, and so on. I look forward to your posts (and those of many others). This site has given me many smiles and laughs since I found it about 8 months ago (and over 35 shirts and such). Once all the shirts we can buy are no longer available, we need a new site to share our thoughts. We are here, your fellow shirtwooters, and we stand by you and our principles.

neuropsychosocial wrote:I concede the general point about sales of "Music is Life;" I would like to believe, however, that some people chose not to buy it based on their ethical principles.

I had an incidental copy of one that was on my trade list, and I can vouch that several folks who had interest in it did indeed pass on buying it direct from Woot because a commission would have gone to Seki (whereas buying my copy means $0 going to her). So have faith that definitely there were folks who didn't buy one due to the incident.