WootBot


quality posts: 14 Private Messages WootBot

Staff

How Many Orcs Does It Take...

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Quality Posts


lordbowen


quality posts: 242 Private Messages lordbowen

They need to make sure that sucker's grounded. Don't want to get shocked by an electrical orc.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba

Those sure look like goblins to me Woot.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

lonelypond


quality posts: 422 Private Messages lonelypond

Output Machine Failing, Guys!...I have joined the hordes + have a favorite LOTR ref shirt...love the orcs. Great to see physical comedy come through in a (pardon) static design.

lonelypond


quality posts: 422 Private Messages lonelypond
bluetuba wrote:Those sure look like goblins to me Woot.



gremlins?

massha10


quality posts: 67 Private Messages massha10

Output Machine Failing, Guys! I can't believe how clever, fresh and FUNNY todays' shirt is! BRAVO!!!

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
lonelypond wrote:gremlins?



No, a goblin is like a smaller mutated orc.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

ClaudiaM


quality posts: 4 Private Messages ClaudiaM

... PLUS a constant.

lonelypond


quality posts: 422 Private Messages lonelypond
bluetuba wrote:No, a goblin is like a smaller mutated orc.



Realize that but have been reading novels set during Blitz so achieved level: joke that makes sense to no one else based on gremlins as WWII saboteur thought.

Thirdbase9


quality posts: 92 Private Messages Thirdbase9

I thought the answer was two, but no one knows how they get in there.

I don't know.

bitman


quality posts: 14 Private Messages bitman
woot wrote:math


Looks like someone started calculus class! I look forward to more non-joke science as the semester goes on!

ryanmon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ryanmon

I love how the math is just random stuff probably copied and pasted from wikipedia.

FYI, the function being defined to find the minimum number of orcs needed to screw in a light bulb is likely not integrable and definitely not differentiable. So, most of those formulas there cannot be used. And the ones leftover (defining the recursive sequence and the triangle inequality) are useless for finding the min.

ArsenicDrone


quality posts: 2 Private Messages ArsenicDrone

Convergence of the Maclaurin series for the number of orcs was proven by DURRRR, although he failed to see that the reverse triangle inequality gave the value of 3.

villainousfox


quality posts: 2 Private Messages villainousfox
ryanmon wrote:FYI, the function being defined to find the minimum number of orcs needed to screw in a light bulb is likely not integrable and definitely not differentiable. So, most of those formulas there cannot be used. And the ones leftover (defining the recursive sequence and the triangle inequality) are useless for finding the min.



Hey look everyone, it's that guy!

Do they get the energy for these bulbs from Mount Doom? Because really that's the only sustainable way to power the war machine. Sauron can't just buy power and men from the Haradrim, he has budget issues too, I'm sure.

safyrejet


quality posts: 121 Private Messages safyrejet

Three! I only see two. That light bulb is never getting screwed in.

Hmm, maybe all Frodo needed to do to escape the Eye was turn off the high beam switch. Silly Hobbits, it was probably just behind that rock you stopped near as you simply walked into Mordor.

lcermak


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lcermak
ClaudiaM wrote:... PLUS a constant.




"Darn it," you stole my response!

Spiritgreen


quality posts: 215 Private Messages Spiritgreen

Love the idea of this one, harzack! Favorite part: the Nazgûl freaking out at his clumsy underlings.

joeman1890


quality posts: 1 Private Messages joeman1890

One of those bulbs has right hand threads and the other has left hand threads.

stickman770


quality posts: 0 Private Messages stickman770

"... PLUS a constant."

Sorry to be "that guy," but I can't help it when it comes to math. A constant of integration is only used when performing an antiderivative. Not for bounded integrals like these.

tobias23


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tobias23

pay no attention to the orcs behind the curtain

ClaudiaM


quality posts: 4 Private Messages ClaudiaM
stickman770 wrote:"... PLUS a constant."

Sorry to be "that guy," but I can't help it when it comes to math. A constant of integration is only used when performing an antiderivative. Not for bounded integrals like these.



Correct.

I was quoting a punch line.

skatimmy737


quality posts: 207 Private Messages skatimmy737
bluetuba wrote:No, a goblin is like a smaller mutated orc.



I thought the word "goblin" was just the Dwarven word for "orc". Hence, why there are goblins in the Mines of Moria instead of orcs.

nmchapma


quality posts: 23 Private Messages nmchapma

It is believed that the corruption of the Elves captured by Morgoth involved eating the flesh of fellow Elves, therefore losing their immortality and becoming horribly disfigured as punishment.

Goblins are what Tolkien called the Orcs that Thorin and Company encountered in the book The Hobbit. They lived deep under the Misty Mountains in many strongholds, ever since the War of Wrath in the First Age. In The Hobbit, Tolkien described them as big, ugly creatures, "cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted." Tolkien explained in a note at the start of The Hobbit that he was using English to represent the languages used by the characters, and that goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kind) was the English translation he was using for the word Orc, which (he wrote) is the hobbits' form of the name for them. Tolkien used the term goblin extensively in The Hobbit, and also occasionally in The Lord of the Rings, as when the Uruk-hai of Isengard are first described: "four goblin-soldiers of greater stature".

A clear illustration that Tolkien considered goblins and orcs to be the same thing, the former word merely the English translation of the latter, is that in The Hobbit (the only one of Tolkien's works in which he usually refers to orcs as goblins) Gandalf asks Thorin if he remembers Azog the goblin who killed his grandfather Thror, while in all his other writings Tolkien describes Azog as a "great Orc."

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)"
—J.R.R. Tolkien, Preface to The Hobbit

Though, he does misuse the prefix hob to mean larger when in fact it would mean smaller.

oakenspirit


quality posts: 79 Private Messages oakenspirit

I believe this is the first time I have ever laughed at a "How many ____ does it take to change a lightbulb?" joke. Well done!


omarfeliciano


quality posts: 34 Private Messages omarfeliciano

Are those Shagrat & Gorbag? Yes, huge LOTR nerd here!

Congrats Harzack!

petartag


quality posts: 0 Private Messages petartag
ClaudiaM wrote:Correct.

I was quoting a punch line.



a constant of integration IS needed unless the initial conditions are Zero

spafrica2003


quality posts: 6 Private Messages spafrica2003
nmchapma wrote:It is believed that the corruption of the Elves captured by Morgoth involved eating the flesh of fellow Elves, therefore losing their immortality and becoming horribly disfigured as punishment.

Goblins are what Tolkien called the Orcs that Thorin and Company encountered in the book The Hobbit. They lived deep under the Misty Mountains in many strongholds, ever since the War of Wrath in the First Age. In The Hobbit, Tolkien described them as big, ugly creatures, "cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted." Tolkien explained in a note at the start of The Hobbit that he was using English to represent the languages used by the characters, and that goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kind) was the English translation he was using for the word Orc, which (he wrote) is the hobbits' form of the name for them. Tolkien used the term goblin extensively in The Hobbit, and also occasionally in The Lord of the Rings, as when the Uruk-hai of Isengard are first described: "four goblin-soldiers of greater stature".

A clear illustration that Tolkien considered goblins and orcs to be the same thing, the former word merely the English translation of the latter, is that in The Hobbit (the only one of Tolkien's works in which he usually refers to orcs as goblins) Gandalf asks Thorin if he remembers Azog the goblin who killed his grandfather Thror, while in all his other writings Tolkien describes Azog as a "great Orc."

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)"
—J.R.R. Tolkien, Preface to The Hobbit

Though, he does misuse the prefix hob to mean larger when in fact it would mean smaller.



Wow. There are nerds and then there are nerds. Having only read the entire LOTR cover to cover twice, it's apparent that I am still not nearly ready for this level of nerdism...er... I mean conversation.

spafrica2003


quality posts: 6 Private Messages spafrica2003
villainousfox wrote:Hey look everyone, it's that guy!



LOL

pg318


quality posts: 2 Private Messages pg318
safyrejet wrote:Three! I only see two. That light bulb is never getting screwed in.

Hmm, maybe all Frodo needed to do to escape the Eye was turn off the high beam switch. Silly Hobbits, it was probably just behind that rock you stopped near as you simply walked into Mordor.

I still don't get why they didn't get the Great Eagles to just drop them directly at the Cracks of Doom...

darthbob14


quality posts: 5 Private Messages darthbob14

A Nazgûl easily counts as two orcs, so they're actually overstaffed.

"Finally, an excuse to nuke France!"

oakenspirit


quality posts: 79 Private Messages oakenspirit
pg318 wrote:I still don't get why they didn't get the Great Eagles to just drop them directly at the Cracks of Doom...



The quest's the thing!


bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
nmchapma wrote:A clear illustration that Tolkien considered goblins and orcs to be the same thing



Indeed, nerd challenge withdrawn!

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

mytdawg


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mytdawg

Dear Algebra - I'm not looking for your X anymore. She's gone. Let her go.

nmchapma


quality posts: 23 Private Messages nmchapma
bluetuba wrote:Indeed, nerd challenge withdrawn!



To your credit he doesn't stick to that perfectly. Later, in the LOTR trilogy he refers to goblins as a "race of orc". Still orc but different.

Kuragari


quality posts: 6 Private Messages Kuragari
bluetuba wrote:Those sure look like goblins to me Woot.



My thoughts exactly. Woot, you're disqualified from writing LOTR references.

lonelypond


quality posts: 422 Private Messages lonelypond

I treasure the more educational comment threads. And now I want to reread The Silmarillion : )

lethargicmass


quality posts: 10 Private Messages lethargicmass

- comment deleted; redundant -


I love bacon!

lethargicmass


quality posts: 10 Private Messages lethargicmass
petartag wrote:a constant of integration IS needed unless the initial conditions are Zero



Not quite. A constant is needed if the integration does not specify limits (is an indefinite integral). The integrals in the write-up all have limits; therefore, as definite integrals, their solutions do not -- and cannot -- contain constants.


I love bacon!

lethargicmass


quality posts: 10 Private Messages lethargicmass
pg318 wrote:I still don't get why they didn't get the Great Eagles to just drop them directly at the Cracks of Doom...



This debate has been raging for decades in the Tolkien community. My opinion is that you're right; Tolkien was writing a bloody book, and made choices based on maximizing the drama and interest of the plot. The eagles were clearly used as a handy plot device to get Frodo and Sam out of an otherwise completely hopeless situation. To play devil's advocate, however, here are what I see as the main points against having the eagles carry the ring to Mount Doom:


  • In the two instances when the eagles rescued our heroes in The Hobbit -- first when when trapped by orcs and wargs, and later when they join the Battle of Five Armies -- Tolkien writes that they did so of their own volition because they hate orcs and wargs, and not because they were part of the team or anything. Note that they showed up fashionably late to the final Hobbit battle; they clearly weren't planning on helping out for the sake of helping out, or they'd have shown up on time.
  • And when they do deign to rescue the hobbits from the orcs and wargs, they're huffy and stingy about it; claiming that they have their own business to attend to, and refusing to carry them very far. This further supports the eagles-as-aloof-and-uninterested argument.
  • The eagles rescue Gandalf individually twice: Once from Orthanc, and once from the Black Tower in southern Mirkwood. Now, it is presented in the book that Gandalf's rescue from Orthanc was essentially by chance: His fellow wizard Radagast had a message for him, and Gandalf had had all his messages forwarded to Orthanc, as he knew he was going there to meet with Saruman, so Radagast used his special beast-talker powers to persuade an eagle to deliver the message, and the eagle found Gandalf imprisoned and carried him off. So this can be written off as chance and Radagast's special Istari power. But one can also recall that Gandalf is special: as one of the Maiar sent down, Jesus-like, to Middle Earth by the Valar (gods) to help guide the lesser races, he should be expected to have some value to the gods, and therefore that their explicit intervention -- in the form of sending eagles to rescue him -- would be perfectly reasonable. This does not mean that the eagles are anyone's bïtches; ready to drop everything on a moment's notice and come save your ass.
  • Perhaps most crucially: When the eagles actually do fly into Mordor, it is only after the Ring has been destroyed and Sauron's power is gone with it. The fact that Gandalf waits pointedly for this to occur first implies almost undeniably that he did not believe they could have been able (or, perhaps, willing) to make the trip while Sauron and the Nazgul retained their powers.
  • And finally, a bit of a cheat: Almost certainly due to Tolkien's Catholic upbringing, the gods of Middle earth are very much the set-it-up-as-a-challenge-now-you-figure-it-out-yourselves types. It would be exactly in their way to purposely withhold the help of the eagles from the Fellowship in order to require those were about to inherit the Fourth Age of Middle earth (as the elves all left, ending the Third Age) to learn and grow.


I love bacon!

skemmis


quality posts: 15 Private Messages skemmis

Staff

lethargicmass wrote:This debate has been raging for decades in the Tolkien community. My opinion is that you're right; Tolkien was writing a bloody book, and made choices based on maximizing the drama and interest of the plot. The eagles were clearly used as a handy plot device to get Frodo and Sam out of an otherwise completely hopeless situation. To play devil's advocate, however, here are what I see as the main points against having the eagles carry the ring to Mount Doom:


  • In the two instances when the eagles rescued our heroes in The Hobbit -- first when when trapped by orcs and wargs, and later when they join the Battle of Five Armies -- Tolkien writes that they did so of their own volition because they hate orcs and wargs, and not because they were part of the team or anything. Note that they showed up fashionably late to the final Hobbit battle; they clearly weren't planning on helping out for the sake of helping out, or they'd have shown up on time.
  • And when they do deign to rescue the hobbits from the orcs and wargs, they're huffy and stingy about it; claiming that they have their own business to attend to, and refusing to carry them very far. This further supports the eagles-as-aloof-and-uninterested argument.
  • The eagles rescue Gandalf individually twice: Once from Orthanc, and once from the Black Tower in southern Mirkwood. Now, it is presented in the book that Gandalf's rescue from Orthanc was essentially by chance: His fellow wizard Radagast had a message for him, and Gandalf had had all his messages forwarded to Orthanc, as he knew he was going there to meet with Saruman, so Radagast used his special beast-talker powers to persuade an eagle to deliver the message, and the eagle found Gandalf imprisoned and carried him off. So this can be written off as chance and Radagast's special Istari power. But one can also recall that Gandalf is special: as one of the Maiar sent down, Jesus-like, to Middle Earth by the Valar (gods) to help guide the lesser races, he should be expected to have some value to the gods, and therefore that their explicit intervention -- in the form of sending eagles to rescue him -- would be perfectly reasonable. This does not mean that the eagles are anyone's bïtches; ready to drop everything on a moment's notice and come save your ass.
  • Perhaps most crucially: When the eagles actually do fly into Mordor, it is only after the Ring has been destroyed and Sauron's power is gone with it. The fact that Gandalf waits pointedly for this to occur first implies almost undeniably that he did not believe they could have been able (or, perhaps, willing) to make the trip while Sauron and the Nazgul retained their powers.
  • And finally, a bit of a cheat: Almost certainly due to Tolkien's Catholic upbringing, the gods of Middle earth are very much the set-it-up-as-a-challenge-now-you-figure-it-out-yourselves types. It would be exactly in their way to purposely withhold the help of the eagles from the Fellowship in order to require those were about to inherit the Fourth Age of Middle earth (as the elves all left, ending the Third Age) to learn and grow.