Derby #69: Miniature Worlds
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The Dandy Lion

The Dandy Lion
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bryozoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bryozoan
Re: The Dandy Lion


Nice. Subtle and effective.

Jestik


quality posts: 50 Private Messages Jestik
Re: The Dandy Lion


sweet. It definitely takes you for a ride.

Discobiscuits


quality posts: 1 Private Messages Discobiscuits
Jestik wrote:sweet. It definitely takes you for a ride.


on heavy metal?

Urtawkin2adork83


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Urtawkin2adork83
Re: The Dandy Lion



i want thisssssss!!! i love it

greenriverdog


quality posts: 1 Private Messages greenriverdog
Urtawkin2adork83 wrote:i want thisssssss!!! i love it


Me tooo!!! GMV!

DavidShenoda


quality posts: 0 Private Messages DavidShenoda
Re: The Dandy Lion


They do make the best parachutes. I like the loose, sketchy feel. Very Cool.

bradyson


quality posts: 4 Private Messages bradyson
Re: The Dandy Lion


Very Nice. I was thinking of doing a dandelion with its seeds turning into planes or rockets, but I could not get it right and gave up. Glad I did because yours is perfect.

Irrelevant


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Irrelevant
Re: The Dandy Lion


i can't imagine anyone not wanting to wear this.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Irrelevant wrote:i can't imagine anyone not wanting to wear this.


Allow me to shock you then.

I just cannot get into this "style" of splotchy backgrounds and lines that look like they bled ink. To me this is one more example of wooters being unable to really analyze what they're voting for

prateeko


quality posts: 70 Private Messages prateeko
AdderXYU wrote:Allow me to shock you then.

I just cannot get into this "style" of splotchy backgrounds and lines that look like they bled ink. To me this is one more example of wooters being unable to really analyze what they're voting for


Uhh, isn't this an example of voting Wooters having different taste/preference than yours? I'm fairly certain people who voted for this (like myself) analyzed the design sufficiently and voted for it because it's one we like. You may not like it, but I don't think that excludes us from proper analysis...

africadoug


quality posts: 0 Private Messages africadoug
prateeko wrote:Uhh, isn't this an example of voting Wooters having different taste/preference than yours? I'm fairly certain people who voted for this (like myself) analyzed the design sufficiently and voted for it because it's one we like. You may not like it, but I don't think that excludes us from proper analysis...


I agree. This design is pretty flawless, and it definitely works on a shirt. I would love to buy this!

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
prateeko wrote:Uhh, isn't this an example of voting Wooters having different taste/preference than yours? I'm fairly certain people who voted for this (like myself) analyzed the design sufficiently and voted for it because it's one we like. You may not like it, but I don't think that excludes us from proper analysis...


No. One entry is an anomaly. It could happen to anyone.

Entire months, on the other hand, should be looked at more skeptically.

knightvision3d


quality posts: 0 Private Messages knightvision3d
Re: The Dandy Lion


Love this. Oh, what fantastic adventures await those little guys!

prateeko


quality posts: 70 Private Messages prateeko
AdderXYU wrote:No. One entry is an anomaly. It could happen to anyone.

Entire months, on the other hand, should be looked at more skeptically.


I never said one entry was an anomaly. In fact, I said the opposite, I said its success is the norm because, by the overwhelming standard for analysis by shirt.woot's community, this type of design is clearly preferred/desirable. To put it simply - we are all capable analyzers and by our analysis this is a pleasurable/desirable design.

If anything could be considered an anomaly, it is you/your dislike of these designs/style. You don't like the design? Fine, but don't try to be condescending ass by telling us we don't know what we should and should not like because you don't get it (and thus we must be stupid). It seems to me your skepticism is thinly veiled dislike of a style/trend that the rest of your peers (well, wooters) happen to like.

AnnaJo


quality posts: 1 Private Messages AnnaJo
Re: The Dandy Lion


This is really great. I love your scarce use of color. great job!

fofmock


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fofmock
prateeko wrote:I never said one entry was an anomaly. In fact, I said the opposite, I said its success is the norm because, by the overwhelming standard for analysis by shirt.woot's community, this type of design is clearly preferred/desirable. To put it simply - we are all capable analyzers and by our analysis this is a pleasurable/desirable design.

If anything could be considered an anomaly, it is you/your dislike of these designs/style. You don't like the design? Fine, but don't try to be condescending ass by telling us we don't know what we should and should not like because you don't get it (and thus we must be stupid). It seems to me your skepticism is thinly veiled dislike of a style/trend that the rest of your peers (well, wooters) happen to like.


I feel like there has been a recent "boom" of voters that all of a sudden changed the trends of voting. Not saying that this is a bad design, I just feel that its something that the recent trends prefer. As more shirts are sold and more participate, votes and numbers go up so rapidly that its hard to define trends in the voting anymore... I am not personally a fan of the style, but I do see and understand the artistic ability involved in the design.

female


quality posts: 0 Private Messages female
fofmock wrote: artistic ability involved in the design.


Take a subject matter that's been done a million times before on every shirt contest site since the dawn of time: Dandelion seeds blowing away and the subset of those designs, something riding along. Use your premade template of little shapes flying off a big shape, plug in new object and apply edgy photoshop brush. Repeat ad infinitum. Why people aren't copying this license to print money every week is beyond me.

jjtenbensel


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jjtenbensel
Re: The Dandy Lion


I love your execution and style in this, but it does remind me a lot of this.

greenriverdog


quality posts: 1 Private Messages greenriverdog
jjtenbensel wrote:I love your execution and style in this, but it does remind me a lot of this.


Yes but the artistic value of this design is way cooler and more developed than the threadless one!

GMV, I just with it wasn't on cream

oodonutoo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages oodonutoo

you my dear prateeko.....are my hero. thank you for being the one to finally say this to adder. i tip my hat to you.

ch4o7ic


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ch4o7ic
Re: The Dandy Lion


sure there have been similar designs like this....but there have been similar designs of almost every shirt on here!!

anyways, i dont have a shirt that is anything like this at this point, so i really hope this one wins because i love it!!

ansharp


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ansharp
Re: The Dandy Lion


At threadless alone, there are several examples of this exact idea. Here are a few:

Let's Go Parasoling
Supercalidandelion
Dandelion Riders

Sure, the last two were never printed, but the artists still own the rights to the designs and could sue for plagiarism. Not to mention, I'm sure I've seen other design like this elsewhere.

kdeuce


quality posts: 7 Private Messages kdeuce

ah cr@p. i never saw any of those designs prior to now. that vacuums. my bad. i just always thought it would be the coolest thing to go on a ride on one of those things. who hasn't?
thanks for all the support, though.

kdeuce


quality posts: 7 Private Messages kdeuce
prateeko wrote:I never said one entry was an anomaly. In fact, I said the opposite, I said its success is the norm because, by the overwhelming standard for analysis by shirt.woot's community, this type of design is clearly preferred/desirable. To put it simply - we are all capable analyzers and by our analysis this is a pleasurable/desirable design.

If anything could be considered an anomaly, it is you/your dislike of these designs/style. You don't like the design? Fine, but don't try to be condescending ass by telling us we don't know what we should and should not like because you don't get it (and thus we must be stupid). It seems to me your skepticism is thinly veiled dislike of a style/trend that the rest of your peers (well, wooters) happen to like.


well said, mate.

ch4o7ic


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ch4o7ic
Re: The Dandy Lion


can it please stay? PLEASEEEEE

mactraveler


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mactraveler

why do people vote for stuff that's been done so many times before? last week it was that overdone row vs wade, now it's this. meanwhile, cool designs get knocked out of the fog in favor of unoriginality.

There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

mactraveler


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mactraveler
mactraveler wrote:why do people vote for stuff that's been done so many times before? last week it was that overdone row vs wade, now it's this. meanwhile, cool designs get knocked out of the fog in favor of unoriginality.

There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.


no offense to you, kdeuce , but when you found out this has been done several times before, you should have just withdrawn it out of artistic integrity. I love your other work, and in fact, i'm still trying to find 335 Woolloomoo Way & Urban Painter on the aftermarket, so my criticism is not a personal thing, please understand that.

Pemberlinden


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Pemberlinden
Re: The Dandy Lion


lovely!

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
mactraveler wrote:why do people vote for stuff that's been done so many times before? last week it was that overdone row vs wade, now it's this. meanwhile, cool designs get knocked out of the fog in favor of unoriginality.

There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.


People don't want to be challenged. and they're sure as hell too cheap to spend over $10 on a shirt

I protest this sort of stuff all the time, and the responses are normally "If you don't like it, don't vote," or "who cares if it's been done before, i like this better," or the incredibly stupid "This is cheaper, I'm not going to spend more than $10." It's about a me-me-me society, and one where art, especially that which is consumed en masse, is meaningless. It's not about "where can I get something special," but "where can I get something I recognize more conveniently and preferably cheaper." That's why we see horrible puns like row v. wade, or threadless clones like this, or things like aaarrrgyle, which was long since printed at uneetee by another artist. It's why the whole video game derby fog was Mario or Tetris. Seriously, no one at this site seems to care about integrity or effort, unless someone tries to defend integrity or effort... then they come out in droves against the person who dares suggest a shred of creativity or individuality.

But woot won't enforce its own rules half the time, and designers often care more about their own networking and successes than about what is fair and what deserves reward... too scared to comment negatively for fear of the lash-out. It's bad enough that people allow the whole "little boxes" philosophy to perpetuate, but when no one fights back, that's even worse, and as woot has proven, it just compounds the problem. i've said it before, but it's true... real designers see woot as a joke, not because there's no talent, but because that talent rarely sees the light of day. If you're not a gentry or a cho, with scads of artistic talent and creativity to spare, you're really not getting the respect you deserve here... hell, even they aren't getting the respect they deserve here most of the time... they get the prints, but rarely see the sales, and have scads of the uncreative gang on their backs for it. Woot is just not the place you come to to put forth real work, and if we have no desire to make it so, it will only decline.

MrMcNoot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MrMcNoot
AdderXYU wrote:People don't want to be challenged. and they're sure as hell too cheap to spend over $10 on a shirt

I protest this sort of stuff all the time, and the responses are normally "If you don't like it, don't vote," or "who cares if it's been done before, i like this better," or the incredibly stupid "This is cheaper, I'm not going to spend more than $10." It's about a me-me-me society, and one where art, especially that which is consumed en masse, is meaningless. It's not about "where can I get something special," but "where can I get something I recognize more conveniently and preferably cheaper." That's why we see horrible puns like row v. wade, or threadless clones like this, or things like aaarrrgyle, which was long since printed at uneetee by another artist. It's why the whole video game derby fog was Mario or Tetris. Seriously, no one at this site seems to care about integrity or effort, unless someone tries to defend integrity or effort... then they come out in droves against the person who dares suggest a shred of creativity or individuality.

But woot won't enforce its own rules half the time, and designers often care more about their own networking and successes than about what is fair and what deserves reward... too scared to comment negatively for fear of the lash-out. It's bad enough that people allow the whole "little boxes" philosophy to perpetuate, but when no one fights back, that's even worse, and as woot has proven, it just compounds the problem. i've said it before, but it's true... real designers see woot as a joke, not because there's no talent, but because that talent rarely sees the light of day. If you're not a gentry or a cho, with scads of artistic talent and creativity to spare, you're really not getting the respect you deserve here... hell, even they aren't getting the respect they deserve here most of the time... they get the prints, but rarely see the sales, and have scads of the uncreative gang on their backs for it. Woot is just not the place you come to to put forth real work, and if we have no desire to make it so, it will only decline.


Very, VERY, well said Adder.

Although I have never designed a shirt, I feel that the designers who win should use some more creativity. Meanwhile I have yet to see edgarrmcherly, a very creative writer, get a print. I love his designs as do many others, but not enough for him to get the print. Most times he will place in the top ten, but rarely will he break into the area dominated by much less creative and artistic designs. I am not trying to say that every shirt in the fog is boring and unoriginal, i am simply saying that there not enough exciting and original shirts that get printed.

And seriously KDEUCE, why did you not immediately remove your design after having seen at least three others that were practically identical?

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
MrMcNoot wrote:Very, VERY, well said Adder.

Although I have never designed a shirt, I feel that the designers who win should use some more creativity. Meanwhile I have yet to see edgarrmcherly, a very creative writer, get a print. I love his designs as do many others, but not enough for him to get the print. Most times he will place in the top ten, but rarely will he break into the area dominated by much less creative and artistic designs. I am not trying to say that every shirt in the fog is boring and unoriginal, i am simply saying that there not enough exciting and original shirts that get printed.

And seriously KDEUCE, why did you not immediately remove your design after having seen at least three others that were practically identical?


He cannot simply remove it...he would have to email Woot and ask for it to be removed at this point. The artist can only self-remove an entry in the first 24 hours of the Derby. He should have done so while he was within that window.

IndependentVik


quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
ansharp wrote:At threadless alone, there are several examples of this exact idea. Here are a few:

Let's Go Parasoling
Supercalidandelion
Dandelion Riders

Sure, the last two were never printed, but the artists still own the rights to the designs and could sue for plagiarism. Not to mention, I'm sure I've seen other design like this elsewhere.


Sued for plagiarism? Really? The fact that it's been done so many times, if anything, shows that it's a fairly obvious idea; it's not such a leap of the imagination to believe that kdeuce came up with this independently. I certainly don't believe that he stumbled across the designs you mentioned and thought, "let's copy for $$$!"

That being said, kdeuce, you should probably write woot to withrdraw the entry. Similar shirts clearly exist. Yes, I think your execution is better, but it's been done.

Bhennain


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Bhennain

I think it's a great shirt and it's my fav of the fog. I know that it's to fit the derby and all but I think it would be even cooler without the little guys, just the dandelion. great piece of art though.

IndependentVik


quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
AdderXYU wrote:People don't want to be challenged. and they're sure as hell too cheap to spend over $10 on a shirt

I protest this sort of stuff all the time, and the responses are normally "If you don't like it, don't vote," or "who cares if it's been done before, i like this better," or the incredibly stupid "This is cheaper, I'm not going to spend more than $10."


Adder, I clipped out a lot of your rant, for the sake of brevity, but I have to say that I agree with you for the most part. The disgust I feel for people who vote up designs they could just as easily get elsewhere with the excuse that they won't pay more than $10 for a shirt, oy.

You're an interesting case, and most of the time when one takes your posts in isolation you just come across as someone who's a complete jerk for no real reason. Every once in awhile, though, you really go into detail and write a sort of Adder-on-the-state-of-woot manifesto, and it's then that you really shine. Yeah, you're rough, and yes, you _are_ kind of a jerk, but these glimpses show that you really care about the site, you want to see things improve. My guess is that the venom that underlies so many of your posts is just a result of frustration; you haven't been able to figure out _how_ to make things better, and it's just driving you nuts.

I think that hating on designs that you dislike (and the people who vote for them) isn't really generating the desired effect. Sometimes, I almost suspect that people vote up designs you're really harsh on just to piss you off (I'd wager cash money that's what happened with Liquid Hibiscus). Where you really do best is when you leave a comment on a languishing design and point out something about it I completely missed that makes me realize I love the design, too. Have you considered maybe starting an "Adder's picks" thread for each derby, with your favorite languishing entries and why you like them? You're a notable enough figure amongst the forum-dwellers that I'm almost certain people would read it.

Maybe the way to aim for the change you want is to build up the designs you want instead of tearing down the ones you don't. It might not make a discernible difference in the outcome of the derbies, especially in the short term, but could it really be less effective than what you're doing now? Just a thought.

Incidentally, I've noticed some of Edgar's designs have been doing better since your thread about him. I've certainly noticed more comments in his entries bemoaning his lack of recognition/votes.

dmkooo


quality posts: 10 Private Messages dmkooo
AdderXYU wrote:Allow me to shock you then.

I just cannot get into this "style" of splotchy backgrounds and lines that look like they bled ink. To me this is one more example of wooters being unable to really analyze what they're voting for


I like this style...pen and ink. I know what I'm voting for, and I certainly don't consider myself superior to others because I have a more eclectic taste.

Paradox55


quality posts: 1 Private Messages Paradox55
Re: The Dandy Lion


Too many like designs out there, so I, too, am disappointed that this is in the fog. On a side note, I find myself agreeing more times than not with Adder.

ansharp


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ansharp
Re: The Dandy Lion


This discussion started off productive and now has been (as usual) marred by ugly personal attacks. Here are a few bullet points of my thoughts (in no particular order) since I largely started this debate:

1. I said the other artists could sue, but I didn't say they'd win. In all likelihood, they'd just be offended. Do I think kdeuce went over to Threadless and said, "Where's a good idea that I can copy for this derby?" No, of course not, and I would never imply such a thing.

2. It is difficult to create something new, that is true, but many people do it every week. Should ideas that have already been proven to succeed be allowed in a competition against creative ones? That is a sincere question, but I imagine I won't agree with most of the responses.

3. Whether or not kdeuce could have pulled this entry on his (?) own is irrelevant now. If you think the entry should be removed, then please tattle and include appropriate links or at least a link to my post above.

4. Yes, some people prefer to use the woot derbies to display their original art instead of catering to the masses in order to win. We would all like to win, but won't sacrifice our integrity to do so. I know at least one person who never expects to get more than 20 or so votes (even though her stuff is great and very unique) and mostly enters for the hope of woot noticing and awarding her with an HM.

5. Adder is not a she, and that would be obvious to anyone who has read a decent number of his posts.

6. He is not the only person around here who consistently despises the voters choices. He's just the only one willing to sacrifice his good name for the cause. When more and more people are speaking up and saying they agree with the voice of dissent, doesn't that usually signal a problem?

paulkremer


quality posts: 4 Private Messages paulkremer
ansharp wrote:This discussion started off productive and now has been (as usual) marred by ugly personal attacks.


I feel the need to apologize. I didn't mean to attack Adder personally, and yet I did. He's just so infuriating for me to read sometimes. He called kdeuce a hack just in this derby, and I was fresh off reading that when I came across this discussion. I don't know Adder personally, so it would be unfair of me to make judgments...but that's kind of my point. I don't disagree with Adder on everything, many of his complaints about Woot have validity. But please please cut out the condescension towards others. I have every right to like Kdeuce's art and not appreciate Adder's. It doesn't mean I lack taste, it just means I have a different taste.

1. I said the other artists could sue, but I didn't say they'd win. In all likelihood, they'd just be offended. Do I think kdeuce went over to Threadless and said, "Where's a good idea that I can copy for this derby?" No, of course not, and I would never imply such a thing.


And if they were to be offended at kdeuce, shouldn't they already be? I mean, each of them had their same idea executed by 2 others, didn't they? I really feel as if none of them would have the right to be offended, as they also executed the same idea differently. Kdeuce could be offended that they had already done his idea, only not as well. I think there is plenty of room for different interpretations of the same idea in the art world. In fact, there NEEDS to be.

2. It is difficult to create something new, that is true, but many people do it every week. Should ideas that have already been proven to succeed be allowed in a competition against creative ones? That is a sincere question, but I imagine I won't agree with most of the responses.


I won't delve too deeply into this one, as I can see your point clearly. But just try to imagine Woot policing not just the rules of the derby that week (which is already felt to be inconsistent), but then trying to police whether or not a CONCEPT is "new" or "has been done too much." While some might applaud the removal of turtles and birds and octopus, where does it end? What happens when dogs win 2 weeks in a row, and the next week a wonderful dog entry gets rejected just because it was being used too much? Just imagine the new problems we'd see on the boards then.

4. Yes, some people prefer to use the woot derbies to display their original art instead of catering to the masses in order to win. We would all like to win, but won't sacrifice our integrity to do so. I know at least one person who never expects to get more than 20 or so votes (even though her stuff is great and very unique) and mostly enters for the hope of woot noticing and awarding her with an HM.


And if that is the case, more power to them. But do you really think that a person who chooses to use the Derbies as nothing more than to display their art has any right to bash the voters for not choosing it? Remember, the voters are the ones who are going to buy. What sense would it make for Woot to print the ones on the bottom when they have thousands of people wanting to buy the ones on the top?

6. He is not the only person around here who consistently despises the voters choices. He's just the only one willing to sacrifice his good name for the cause. When more and more people are speaking up and saying they agree with the voice of dissent, doesn't that usually signal a problem?


This is absolutely my point! You have a right to despise the voters' choices...every bit as much right, in fact, as the voters themselves have the right to vote! However, you absolutely have no more right than they do. You have every right to disagree with them, and every right to express yourself. You'll notice I'm not upset with your disagreeing, actually nothing you have said has bothered me slightly, I am upset with Adder's condescension and dare I say, "unsportsmanlike conduct."

There isn't a game I know of where it is acceptable behavior to call your fellow competitors losers, call them all manner of names, berate them for their stupidity, and then go into the stands of the opposing team and tell them their opinions suck and they are morons for being fans. Not and be taken seriously anyway.

Adder can continue to disagree all he wants. I agree with him that I'd like to see more creativity. I'd like to see more consistent rejections and more accountability. However, be respectful. Even if you hated kdeuce's entry last week, the fact remains it received 2000 votes and has sold almost 4000 shirts in just over a week. A dose of reality would state that Woot is unlikely to reject entries that so many people vote on and sell so many copies just because it is a "formula shirt." (even though I personally disagree with that assessment).

Cut the condescension and hatred and even I agree with Adder.

tsura


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tsura
ansharp wrote:This discussion started off productive and now has been (as usual) marred by ugly personal attacks. Here are a few bullet points of my thoughts (in no particular order) since I largely started this debate:

1. I said the other artists could sue, but I didn't say they'd win. In all likelihood, they'd just be offended. Do I think kdeuce went over to Threadless and said, "Where's a good idea that I can copy for this derby?" No, of course not, and I would never imply such a thing.

2. It is difficult to create something new, that is true, but many people do it every week. Should ideas that have already been proven to succeed be allowed in a competition against creative ones? That is a sincere question, but I imagine I won't agree with most of the responses.

3. Whether or not kdeuce could have pulled this entry on his (?) own is irrelevant now. If you think the entry should be removed, then please tattle and include appropriate links or at least a link to my post above.

4. Yes, some people prefer to use the woot derbies to display their original art instead of catering to the masses in order to win. We would all like to win, but won't sacrifice our integrity to do so. I know at least one person who never expects to get more than 20 or so votes (even though her stuff is great and very unique) and mostly enters for the hope of woot noticing and awarding her with an HM.

5. Adder is not a she, and that would be obvious to anyone who has read a decent number of his posts.

6. He is not the only person around here who consistently despises the voters choices. He's just the only one willing to sacrifice his good name for the cause. When more and more people are speaking up and saying they agree with the voice of dissent, doesn't that usually signal a problem?


2. This is a difficult question to ask. While I'm sure it is hard to come up with something unique, the question must be asked. Is this someone stealing an idea from someone else, or Is this just a case of two independent people coming up with similar designs? I'd like to think the later happens 99 percent of the time. Inspiration comes from the world around us, therefore it's completely. understandable that two people can come up with the same idea; But do they have a place in this competition. Part of me says yes, but another part says no. I suppose we have to ask ourselves whether we want to stay creative within the community or within "the industry" (of online t-shirt sales I suppose). It's quite obvious that other sites sell shirts that have similar ideas to already printed shirts. So does shirt.woot sell interpretations of other designs and sell a lot of shirts, or take a different path and only sell unique shirts that you can't find anywhere else (until someone comes up with the idea on another site). I really can't decide.

5. Sorry to mix up adder's gender. It's hard to tell someones sex through comments.

6. I just don't see adder as sacrificing himself for a cause. I see him as taking a negative opinion and pushing it to the extreme. This is not the way people would act in a real life situation (at least i sure hope not). The anonymousity of the internet tends to let people think that it's ok to say anything they want to, without consequences. I just don't think that's a good practice. If he is trying to push a cause, then I feel that there are more efficient ways to make his point. right now a lot of people view his comments blindly hateful.

npard220


quality posts: 0 Private Messages npard220

Nice design, almost reminds me of something the spiderwick chronicles.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

Re: The Dandy Lion


I don't think this will be rejected. It's the kind of idea that can be done by multiple artists just putting their own spin on it, like Koi fish or tree designs. Not my favorite Kdeuce design (that would be 335 Wooloomoo Way), but certainly not rejection worthy. Also it's fairly uncommon to ask for someone to pull their own design because it's similar to something else. An obvious ripoff is one thing, but this clearly isn't that. Tattling and letting Woot decide is usually how it's done, not trying to guilt the artist into pulling it himself. Just my 2 cents.

itsbeth


quality posts: 0 Private Messages itsbeth
Re: The Dandy Lion


Yeah, I think it's been done a lot because it's a fairly obvious concept. However, I like the naturalness of this design, that the seed puffs don't become umbrellas or parachutes like they do in many of the other versions (I can't stand those inexplicably GREEN umbrellas in the Threadless design that actually printed), they simply function as such. I think it's lovely.

lkackman


quality posts: 2 Private Messages lkackman

Let all keep one thing in mind. Each person will view an entry the way they want to, nothing we can say or do will change the view. I suggest we all stop worrying about what people are doing and vote for what we feel belongs in the fog. I tend to vote for 10 or less shirts in each derby. Some shirt ideas i like, but i will only vote if I feel I would actually purchase the shirt. This shirt idea, although commonly done, is still a well executed design style and concept.

Would I vote for it? No, but only because I would not buy it.

I applaud all designers that spend the time to come up with original work, but sometimes we make original designs that resemble other projects. All designers know the feeling of creating something original, only to find out that some other person has had the same idea and did it slightly different or better. It's not a great feeling.

I don't mind constructive criticism, but some people need to learn what that actually is. Some of us are just being down right rude and spiteful, and it's not fair to the people that have spent so much time and work.

Kilagria


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kilagria
lkackman wrote: Each person will view an entry the way they want to, nothing we can say or do will change the view.


I find that sentence highly fictitious, I see plenty of shirts that I dont understand until someone points it out (52 pickup) or that I like until someone points something out.

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
tsura wrote:2. This is a difficult question to ask. While I'm sure it is hard to come up with something unique, the question must be asked. Is this someone stealing an idea from someone else, or Is this just a case of two independent people coming up with similar designs? I'd like to think the later happens 99 percent of the time. Inspiration comes from the world around us, therefore it's completely. understandable that two people can come up with the same idea; But do they have a place in this competition. Part of me says yes, but another part says no. I suppose we have to ask ourselves whether we want to stay creative within the community or within "the industry" (of online t-shirt sales I suppose). It's quite obvious that other sites sell shirts that have similar ideas to already printed shirts. So does shirt.woot sell interpretations of other designs and sell a lot of shirts, or take a different path and only sell unique shirts that you can't find anywhere else (until someone comes up with the idea on another site). I really can't decide.

5. Sorry to mix up adder's gender. It's hard to tell someones sex through comments.

6. I just don't see adder as sacrificing himself for a cause. I see him as taking a negative opinion and pushing it to the extreme. This is not the way people would act in a real life situation (at least i sure hope not). The anonymousity of the internet tends to let people think that it's ok to say anything they want to, without consequences. I just don't think that's a good practice. If he is trying to push a cause, then I feel that there are more efficient ways to make his point. right now a lot of people view his comments blindly hateful.



I find this intriguing that people defend kdeuce so often when he enters a design. Quite often we discover nearly the same design elsewhere or has similar overtones as in this shirt. We've seen designs rejected repeatedly for similar content. And to be fair (although I don't approve of the thought logic behind the randomness), sometimes they are not. I have to wonder sometimes if he suffers from chronic cryptomnesia. We seem to see this from him (as well as some other designers who frequent woot) time and time again and derby after derby. Sometimes it's blatant plagiarism... in this case? Woot, unfortunately, must be the judge, jury and executioner and decide accordingly. I don't agree with the inconsistent rejections because of this, but sadly, it comes back to "They're in charge and it's their derby". But I support the move to change the derby to make it a more even playing field.

In regards to Adder, tsura, I disagree with your view of his stance. He's fighting the inconsistency of woot the only way he can: with words and explanation as to why he believes what he does. I laughed when you said that you hope people don't act this way in a real life situation. What in god's name do you think a picket line is? Or going on strike? How about a revolutionist movement? It's angry people, who feel they've been taken advantage, slighted or wronged of and demand change. I guess, for some of us, he is the head of our movement, our strike. He usually IS the only person who will take the risk and flood the forums with his, and many of our, opinions at the sake of being put on probation. That's relatively sacrificial considering the punishment. Mods know that the moment they mute him for days or weeks, those who agree with him will not say anything nearly as harsh for fear of the same result: more time cut off from voicing their disgust with the way things are handled. If anything, the man is blunt, incredibly good with words and isn't worried about feelings. That's an incredibly dangerous combination and upsetting to those who like things as they are or are afraid of change. He's requesting a fair playing field for all designers. Not just a blind eye turned towards those who take an idea from another place and, while they may have made it themselves, know their idea has been done before.

He has tried being civil. He's tried being comical (anyone who has seen his derby entries will know that not all are genuine entries, rather comical ones to push rules). He's tried to be subtle. At what point do you say "enough of being mild and polite to those who aren't seeing the point?" Yes, he may come across, to you and some others, as a hateful, spiteful egomaniac who's only reason to be here is to blow his own horn. But the designs that: end up just outside the fog on a regular basis, the quality art that is constantly chastised simply because of who created it, the designs that do win that never sell out, even though they seem to be FAR superior to those that stay on the charts... You need to ask yourself, how do these things seem fair and are you absolutely sure that a lot of people view his comments as blindly hateful? I think you'd be surprised on both fronts and at just how many do support his position.

tsura


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tsura
JadenKale wrote:I find this intriguing that people defend... ***CUT*** ...on both fronts and just how many do support his position.


The problem i have with these people who come on here and fight the man with words, is that they are just, in my opinion, not doing it correctly. When angry people lead who feel they've been taken advantage of are led by people who preach hate, the result is not good. Look if you will to the French revolution, possibly one of the biggest public massacres in history. Also the Race Riots in the 1960's, also a huge mess created by people getting too angry. The way people start revolutions in real life is through elegant powerful speech, or actions. I look at MLK Jr and see revolution done right, Malcom X, Gahndi for peats sake. All of them got their message across with out angry riots. And as for striking and picket lines, the reason they work is because everyone UNITES to make things change. They don't go around beating each other down with their signs, that would be counterproductive. While adder shows us that he is capable of elegant speech, what he ends up saying alienates the very people he is trying to rally. The enemy here is not the designers, not their designs, it's the way this SITE works. So do i believe that things could work a little better on this site? Yes I do. Do i think the way Adder is trying to change things is working? No, well at least not as well as it could be. I wasn't around when adder was civil, the only version of adder I've seen is the one who appears to be "a hateful, spiteful egomaniac who's only reason to be here it to blow his own horn". Perhaps you need to step back and evaluate how others who don't know adders background view him, because its those people who are going to help you.

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
tsura wrote:The problem i have with these people who come on here and fight the man with words, is that they are just, in my opinion, not doing it correctly. **snip- damn we're too long winded, you and I** Perhaps you need to step back and evaluate how others who don't know adders background view him, because its those people who are going to help you.


All we have are words, tsura. He's not preaching hate and none of us are starting a riot... so your examples are flawed. And there you are again speaking for us, "what he ends up saying alienates the very people he is trying to rally". You don't know that. And frankly, There is no way to appropriately judge that for the same reason we have problems with the derbies: If we were put it to a vote, people would use multiple accounts (both for and against) and the decision would most definitely be skewed. If people can't take the information presented to them, weigh it against the issues as either side sees them, and see what problems we're experiencing here, then we have much more than just a site problem. He has every right to be angry and frustrated over the rules and inconsistent rejections. He, just like any leader, can say things to motivate the people but he cannot control them. Listen to the speeches you so lovingly referred to as "getting their message across without riots." I've seen examples of young African American teen males take Malcolm X's message and skew it to mean something it does not just to justify their own actions and violence has been associated with his beliefs because of this skewing of meanings. *

You note, "The enemy here is not the designers, not their designs, it's the way this SITE works." That's a vicious circle of circumstances. The designers that know what the rules are, push the rules to get printed. Their designs are questionable and cause unrest and debates, much like this one here. Then we wait for the site to come forward and judge accordingly. Which makes new rules crop up and only pushes the same designers to break a whole new set of rules all over again. Hold steadfast to the rules, and this wouldn't be happening.

So I ask you, since you seem to be more familiar with taking on the problems we face with words, how do you see us proceeding? Because we've been at this a while. At least since before you started your account.

* please note: I have no absolute data to show this, since it is not something I dedicate a great deal of my reading towards. But I do know a couple people that would cite X to excuse them from getting in trouble. However, even in a PBS special: Malcolm X: Make it Plain, the writer notes the miscommunication that can easily be seen, "Malcolm X always demonstrated a bitter amusement when labeled a purveyor of hatred and violence. ...he felt black Americans were entitled to secure their rights "by any means necessary" -- up to and including the use of violence." It's all in how you read and interpret something.

Kilagria


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kilagria
tsura wrote: It just isn't healthy for the people or the site.


I think it's good for letting frustration out, it's not like we know each other so it's nothing personal. Plus I'm sure most of us are nice when away from the computer!

tsura


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tsura
JadenKale wrote:All we have are words... ***CUT YES WE ARE WAY TOO LONG WINDED, BUT IS THAT A BAD THING?*** ...read and interpret something.


granted X isn't the greatest example of not using anger, but he did take a stance to use all other resources before jumping to violence. that aside, I think that we could form a well worded list of things that we as a whole feel should change. the people who run this site are nice people, but i think that as this site is growing, these problems need to be halted now before they get too far out of hand. The rules need to be made ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR. that is the major thing. Woot needs to write up exactly how similar and dissimilar a design can be to another one. Then we, as a community, can cite specific rules that are broken. These rules should be absolute. if a design breaks them, it SHOULD be rejected, no matter how high in the ranks it is, no matter how far into the derby it's discovered. If a design doesn't break teh rules it should be allowed with out argument. The rules now are too vague. the rule that is being questioned the most is the first one. "We determine that the design contains elements created and/or owned by someone other than the designer or Woot, or that would otherwise infringe on the intellectual property rights of third parties" This can be interpreted in many ways, and needs to be made clear with examples. The second major problem is that Woot NEEDS to uphold their own rules. the fact that they state that they will reject things "If we feel like it" is buIIshit. They need to make their intentions clear, make it clear exactly what they can and cant print. And if woot doesn't "feel" like doing it, hire a moderator to track these entries, compare them with the rules and enforce them. The community needs to group together and tell woot that there are flaws with the derbies, and that they need to fix them, because in the end we are the customers, we pay them collectively tens of thousands of dollars A DAY, so it would be in their best interests to keep the community happy, and the site running smoothly. (also they need a new web page design, impossible to find anything)

Kilagria


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kilagria
tsura wrote:whimper moan whine


Well we DO have mods and we CAN tattle on shirts but I agree with you by saying that woot needs to include us, the community, in more than just voting, tattling, and buying. We should be able to vote on the derby theme and I cant think of anything else that we would do.

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
tsura wrote:granted X isn't the greatest example of not using anger, but he did take a stance to use all other resources before jumping to violence. that aside, I think that we could form a well worded list of things that we as a whole feel should change. the people who run this site are nice people, but i think that as this site is growing, these problems need to be halted now before they get too far out of hand. The rules need to be made ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR. that is the major thing. Woot needs to write up exactly how similar and dissimilar a design can be to another one. Then we, as a community, can cite specific rules that are broken. These rules should be absolute. if a design breaks them, it SHOULD be rejected, no matter how high in the ranks it is, no matter how far into the derby it's discovered. If a design doesn't break teh rules it should be allowed with out argument. The rules now are too vague. the rule that is being questioned the most is the first one. "We determine that the design contains elements created and/or owned by someone other than the designer or Woot, or that would otherwise infringe on the intellectual property rights of third parties" This can be interpreted in many ways, and needs to be made clear with examples. The second major problem is that Woot NEEDS to uphold their own rules. the fact that they state that they will reject things "If we feel like it" is buIIshit. They need to make their intentions clear, make it clear exactly what they can and cant print. And if woot doesn't "feel" like doing it, hire a moderator to track these entries, compare them with the rules and enforce them. The community needs to group together and tell woot that there are flaws with the derbies, and that they need to fix them, because in the end we are the customers, we pay them collectively tens of thousands of dollars A DAY, so it would be in their best interests to keep the community happy, and the site running smoothly. (also they need a new web page design, impossible to find anything)


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

mactraveler


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mactraveler
mactraveler wrote:

There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.


coming soon to a shirt.woot near you:

derby #70: your unique interpretation of dandelion parachutes getting chased down by pac-men on a white shirt.

hfink


quality posts: 0 Private Messages hfink
jjtenbensel wrote:I love your execution and style in this, but it does remind me a lot of this.


i was just going to post the exact same thing

bethlehemstarr


quality posts: 19 Private Messages bethlehemstarr
Re: The Dandy Lion


I clicked on the thumbnail, read the thread, saw the three shirts referenced in this thread as being terribly similar. I found that the while similarities to the other shirts do exist, there are often shirts here that bear similarity to either other shirts that already exist, or posters, or drawings, or art of one form or another.

I like this shirt. I find that, yes, there are similarities that exist between it and other shirts, but the execution and 'meaning' behind this one is much more fleshed out. Perhaps it's just because I'm an uninformed troglydite, I like this shirt. I tend to like shirts in many different styles. There is not a particular artist here that I will vote for consistently or continuously. No particular style that I pander to. If I look at a shirt, and it makes me smile, or laugh, or tugs at my emotions- if I can picture myself wearing it (because, there are some absolutely beautiful shirt designs out there that I wish I could get as framed art- but would never wear on my body)- then I will vote for it.
If I vote for a shirt and it makes it to print- I will buy it. I am not sure that I understand the arguments or the anger in this thread and others.
Are people supposed to vote for shirts that they wouldn't buy and wear? Are they supposed to wear shirts that they dislike?

ch4o7ic


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ch4o7ic
Re: The Dandy Lion


well said bethlehemstarr.

i agree, while this shirt has been done before, and even more than once, it is done SOOOO much better than any of the previous 'versions'. when people say they vote for this shirt because they want a 'cheaper' price for the same shirt, i laugh. this shirt isnt voted up because someone wants a 'shirt with floating dandoline pieces with little people hanging onto them', they vote for it because they find it appealing.

now if you think the designer is a hack, dont vote for them....dont post telling everyone they are stupid...because, you know....i think that you are stupid...(how good does that sound?)

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
JadenKale wrote: We seem to see this from him (as well as some other designers who frequent woot) time and time again and derby after derby. Sometimes it's blatant plagiarism... in this case?


This is the first time I've seen such a case from kdeuce. What other designs of his have resembled designs on other sites? I've never seen this issue brought up before and if there's actually some substance behind the accusation, I'd like to hear more about it.



Re: all the stuff on Adder... heh, I like it when he's being eloquent. I don't like it when he's just bashing people. As for him being the one brave enough to say things others wouldn't for fear of probation or whatever... agreed. But ironically, I often find myself hesitant to speak up for fear of being at the receiving end of one of his barbed comments.


Anyway, I do think this design should have been withdrawn, and should now be rejected. In my opinion, it's too similar to those other designs.

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

fofmock


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fofmock
tsura wrote: The rules need to be made ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR. etc...


Now, if at all possible would you like to give an example on how this could be accomplished? What exactly can be added to the rules that would specify "how alike" one design is to another. Specify colors, areas of the shirt, numbers of objects, or what? Isn't it enough to just say "don't plagiarize", because designs are never exact copies, and always changing, you can't have absolutely clear rules.

Regardless of all of the whining and bickering, this is not a democracy, woot is a dictatorship with ultimate power. Sometimes, a dictator makes decisions based on personal profit and not on the greater good. Are they allowed to do this? YES, because they are the dictator, they have all the power and if you don't like it TOO BAD. They decide the payout, they decide the rules, and they decide the winners. For all we know, they have the fog so that they can go through and choose their favorites and make up vote counts. This is how things work, and the sooner that you realize that and deal with it, the sooner we can get back to the issue at hand -- Why my designs don't ALWAYS win.

BrickCitySinger


quality posts: 0 Private Messages BrickCitySinger
Re: The Dandy Lion


Wow, a lot of long winded remarks. Only reason I'm posting is because I saw a lot of people telling kduece they thought he should withdraw his design. I wanted to make sure someone voiced the opposite opinion. I think you have a draw design with a concept that might not be original. People need to understand that a good design doesn't need to be original. Hystorically speaking, artists copied each other all the time. I think a better way to phrase it is that artists would inspire each other all the time.

kduece, your shirt design rocks. I want one. Let the derby deside.

Atomic Rainbow

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
BrickCitySinger wrote:Wow, a lot of long winded remarks. Only reason I'm posting is because I saw a lot of people telling kduece they thought he should withdraw his design. I wanted to make sure someone voiced the opposite opinion. I think you have a draw design with a concept that might not be original. People need to understand that a good design doesn't need to be original. Hystorically speaking, artists copied each other all the time. I think a better way to phrase it is that artists would inspire each other all the time.

kduece, your shirt design rocks. I want one. Let the derby deside.


I'm sure they will. I think Superspryte said in a previous derby that they don't reject from the fog unless they all get together and discuss it first. Sorry, kdeuce, but it seems like a no-brainer to me. It's not like this is a pirate that could be doing a thousand and ten different things in a design, this is a dandelion with someone riding the seed as it blows away in the wind. You can't really get more specific of a design idea than that. If this is OK, then ANYTHING is OK that isn't a complete line-by-line copy of another design. -and no, I am not implying that you stole the idea, it is after all a pretty obvious idea to think up.

mactraveler


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mactraveler
Re: The Dandy Lion


funny... i just noticed that if this prints, on the women's shirts, when worn, it's going to look like the parachuter is hanging by a thread from the left breast. what a ride!

i still think this design should be withdrawn, though. it's just not right that original, creative designs of superior quality are getting knocked from the fog in favor of this overdone gimmick.

BootsBoots


quality posts: 37 Private Messages BootsBoots
Re: The Dandy Lion


Oh Kdeuce, you're such a good artist. Of course you shouldn't withdraw this, but I do feel like it should be rejected (nothing personal). It's just that so many designs before have been rejected because "similar shirts exist" and I like consistency. I'm very anal.


peppersagooddog


quality posts: 0 Private Messages peppersagooddog
BootsBoots wrote:Oh Kdeuce, you're such a good artist. Of course you shouldn't withdraw this, but I do feel like it should be rejected (nothing personal). It's just that so many designs before have been rejected because "similar shirts exist" and I like consistency. I'm very anal.



man i want to comment something. just cause.
so instead ill just repost this for fun cause im feeling very 12 year oldish apparently.



Patchitect


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Patchitect
BootsBoots wrote:Oh Kdeuce, you're such a good artist. Of course you shouldn't withdraw this, but I do feel like it should be rejected (nothing personal). It's just that so many designs before have been rejected because "similar shirts exist" and I like consistency. I'm very anal.


I'll jump on that bandwagon pepper!

BootsBoots


quality posts: 37 Private Messages BootsBoots
BootsBoots wrote:Oh Kdeuce, you're such a good artist. Of course you shouldn't withdraw this, but I do feel like it should be rejected (nothing personal). It's just that so many designs before have been rejected because "similar shirts exist" and I like consistency. I'm very anal.


Me too! Me too! Oh wait. Do I look like a bit of an egomaniac now? Ah well!


blissjazz


quality posts: 0 Private Messages blissjazz

This seriously blew me away.

mactraveler


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mactraveler
blissjazz wrote:This seriously blew me away.


great!! don't wait, you can buy it right now at threadless!

Kilagria


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kilagria
mactraveler wrote:great!! don't wait, you can buy it right now at threadless!


Whoa there mac, show a bit of curtesy. Sure Kdeuce's shirt resembles others but it's not like he meant it to. A lot of people create designs that are similar to others, thats the way the cookie gets dunked into the milk and popped into your mouth (YUMMY!!!!!!). What I mean is a lot of people will think of a design and not have seen another design similar to theirs, like a lot of people did a mario themed design (games through art history) which could have been similar to a lot of things.

krouth


quality posts: 2 Private Messages krouth
BootsBoots wrote: I'm very anal.


Wow...

noisdois


quality posts: 1 Private Messages noisdois

I always love your designs, kdeuce. Your "To the Top" design was brilliant, as was one of my all-time favorites "Wolloomoo Way." I just really like your style.

I've also discovered that if there's no opposition on the comment threads of my shirts that they have no chance of winning. If people are just loving it and are really nice the whole time, it's probably not going anywhere. I kinda use that to gauge how well I'm doing.

Looks like this one will win for sure!

paulhep


quality posts: 0 Private Messages paulhep

Great concept, great art.

GO VOTE!! This shirt is the Awesomeest!!! supermegavirus

dea007


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dea007
Re: The Dandy Lion


Similar idea, but different execution, which means that I don't think it should be rejected. However, I do think that people making generalized statements about an artists integrity are rude. Provide examples or just tattle, but don't slander people.

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
BootsBoots wrote:Oh Kdeuce, you're such a good artist. Of course you shouldn't withdraw this, but I do feel like it should be rejected (nothing personal). It's just that so many designs before have been rejected because "similar shirts exist" and I like consistency. I'm very anal.


I'll jump on this bandwagon too!

wcheng877


quality posts: 0 Private Messages wcheng877
Re: The Dandy Lion


I must say that this is a beautiful design! Very nice placement and I love the style and overall feel of it!

Kinuven


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kinuven
Re: The Dandy Lion


This design is beautiful, and I don't think it's ripping off the other designs cited above. IF this design had a dandelion made of umbrellas, THEN it would be suspect.

However, this design differs from the others both in idea and in execution. It should stay, and i would wear it.

keiri25


quality posts: 0 Private Messages keiri25
Re: The Dandy Lion


I hope this places I want to get it for my buddy who is working with seed wind dispersal

paulhep


quality posts: 0 Private Messages paulhep

Neat, this one should win, and so should Supermegavirus. If you're cool you'll go vote for Supermegavirus.

GO VOTE!! This shirt is the Awesomeest!!! supermegavirus

capttylor34


quality posts: 0 Private Messages capttylor34
paulhep wrote:Neat, this one should win, and so should Supermegavirus. If you're cool you'll go vote for Supermegavirus.


*tsk* *tsk* Poor form sir. Poor form.

cmdixon2


quality posts: 21 Private Messages cmdixon2
Re: The Dandy Lion


I happen to think this shirt is very well designed and is very appealing. After seeing the similarities to the other shirts it does take away something for me. I don't think it should be rejected necessarily and I highly doubt it would come to that. The only thing that bothers me is if this design pushes out one of the other designs in the fog that clearly deserves to be there.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Re: The Dandy Lion


So I hope we're all scanning threadless for concepts for next week. Personally, I'm going to figure out a way to fit a monster painting a face on his shadow, no matter what the theme is.

krisrobinson


quality posts: 2 Private Messages krisrobinson
Re: The Dandy Lion


*giggles* love it. I'll take 2 plz. GMV

nocturna


quality posts: 0 Private Messages nocturna

So I spent a bit of time reading through some of the lengthy replies, and though I was apprehensive at first with Adder's reply, as everything continued on and as I read further, I really understood his point. I have participated in a contest before where it seemed that the entries with quality and variation were being overlooked, and everything were more of a popularity contest, at best.

What I wish is that perhaps there could be other ways that some of these designs could be purchased or even Adder's personal choice thread, as above. I understand the purpose of the derbies, more or less, but still, at times I do wonder at how some make it through. I haven't wooted for very long, but it's interesting to already see the undercurrents.

As for this design, I do like it, and can see the similarities to the other shirts posted but also agree that Kdeuce took his own spin on it. And that well, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, yes?

Shadowflit


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Shadowflit
IndependentVik wrote:Sued for plagiarism? Really? The fact that it's been done so many times, if anything, shows that it's a fairly obvious idea; it's not such a leap of the imagination to believe that kdeuce came up with this independently. I certainly don't believe that he stumbled across the designs you mentioned and thought, "let's copy for $$$!"

That being said, kdeuce, you should probably write woot to withrdraw the entry. Similar shirts clearly exist. Yes, I think your execution is better, but it's been done.


I wouldn't consider buying any of the three shirts linked - I didn't even look at their price, I just don't like the designs. kdeuce's shirt, however, I would consider buying. Why should someone withdraw their submission just because 'similar shirts exist'? Unless the design was clearly ripped, rather than the inspiration, there's nothing wrong. Almost all ideas are combinations and improvements over previous ones anyway.

Scubatoe3


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Scubatoe3
Re: The Dandy Lion


Love it, it's fun, I'm in for 2.

kbgmaslow


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kbgmaslow
The illustration reminds me of 'Where the Sidewalk Ends' ... Beautifully done!

Re: The Dandy Lion


bryozoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bryozoan
AdderXYU wrote:No. One entry is an anomaly. It could happen to anyone.

Entire months, on the other hand, should be looked at more skeptically.


...or it could be that the majority voters discount your opinion after months of negative, destructive, and annoyingly insulting commentary?

Perhaps.

IndependentVik


quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
Shadowflit wrote:I wouldn't consider buying any of the three shirts linked - I didn't even look at their price, I just don't like the designs. kdeuce's shirt, however, I would consider buying. Why should someone withdraw their submission just because 'similar shirts exist'? Unless the design was clearly ripped, rather than the inspiration, there's nothing wrong. Almost all ideas are combinations and improvements over previous ones anyway.


Thanks for being civil in your reply. So few people are about this topic.

After reading your reply, and the comments of a few others, I've revised my opinion. kdeuce shouldn't have to withdraw, but woot should do the right thing and reject it. If they axed the elephant and red balloon (where the execution was quite different from the existing shirt), then I feel they should do the same here. Inconsistent enforcement of the rules is annoying, especially when you get the sense that the only reason this isn't being rejected is that it will probably sell really well.

kdeuce


quality posts: 7 Private Messages kdeuce
kbgmaslow wrote:The illustration reminds me of 'Where the Sidewalk Ends' ... Beautifully done!


taww... thanks man. Shel Silverstein is one of my heroes. : ]

Kidgoldstein


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kidgoldstein

Ansharp... I was hoping derby 69 was sexier. But alas... sigh

<insert something witty>

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
kbgmaslow wrote:The illustration reminds me of 'Where the Sidewalk Ends' ... Beautifully done!


I have the Shel books (most anyway) and I disagree. Shel had more of a pointillism style to the drawings, not the swishy lines kdeuce uses.

If there was a comparable artist who has drawn similar to Shel in the derbies, I think Cho would have to win that styling.

appsaz


quality posts: 0 Private Messages appsaz
Re: The Dandy Lion


I really appreciate this design and it really bugs me that people have to be so critical of something that is a good piece of work. There will always be trends in voting funny thats called "style" "fashion" People will wear anything... if its cool at the time. Great work to the artist and stop talkin smack about trends. thoes talkin have probably followed a fad just like the rest of us.

Kronos43


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kronos43
Re: The Dandy Lion


Awesome! GMV!

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
kbgmaslow wrote:The illustration reminds me of 'Where the Sidewalk Ends' ... Beautifully done!


This comment proves why you people are so wrong.

Ovaltina, my goat SAY NO TO SCURVY REMINDS ME OF SAVADOR DALI!!!!!

DONT LET CAKE RECKON! IT IS A VERITABLE PICASSO!!!!

This is nothing like Shel's work. It is covered with useless spatter, the dandelion and its seeds look like they came from wegotsomestockflowers.com, and it has no discernible style. This is where you go from having a weak opinion to being flat out wrong.

kdeuce


quality posts: 7 Private Messages kdeuce
AdderXYU wrote:This comment proves why you people are so wrong.

Ovaltina, my goat SAY NO TO SCURVY REMINDS ME OF SAVADOR DALI!!!!!

DONT LET CAKE RECKON! IT IS A VERITABLE PICASSO!!!!

This is nothing like Shel's work. It is covered with useless spatter, the dandelion and its seeds look like they came from wegotsomestockflowers.com, and it has no discernible style. This is where you go from having a weak opinion to being flat out wrong.


i know, right?! how DARE you let this piece REMIND you of Mr. Silverstein's work!? how DARE you?! you are SO WRONG!

give me a frakking break.

...

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
kdeuce wrote:i know, right?! how DARE you let this piece REMIND you of Mr. Silverstein's work!? how DARE you?! you are SO WRONG!

give me a frakking break.

...


Mr. Deuce

If you honestly think your work is similar to Mr. Silverstein, you speak volumes about your own competency.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
AdderXYU wrote:This comment proves why you people are so wrong.


How does that prove anything? It was one person who was reminded of Silverstein. One person does not constitute "people".

AdderXYU wrote:It is covered with useless spatter, the dandelion and its seeds look like they came from wegotsomestockflowers.com, and it has no discernible style. This is where you go from having a weak opinion to being flat out wrong.


I have to disagree with this. I find kdeuce's style to be very distinct and, usually, very aesthetically pleasing. There's something really appealing to me in the inky quality of his designs.

I've also noticed you remarking that many of kdeuce's designs look like they come from vector packs or live traces, but I don't see that either. The only design I remember of kdeuce's that I ever thought looked livetraced was his first entry, with the grenade. The designs I've seen since then all seem hand-drawn to me, almost always in his style.

I respect that you don't like the style, but I find it extremely tasteless to continue accusing kdeuce of using stock photos or stock vectors or whatever. He's been through plenty of derbies - if he'd been doing anything suspicious, chances are that someone would have already found his sources. Wooters are notoriously good at that kind of thing.

I still think this design should be rejected, but these attacks against kdeuce are ridiculous.

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

kdeuce


quality posts: 7 Private Messages kdeuce
AdderXYU wrote:Mr. Deuce

If you honestly think your work is similar to Mr. Silverstein, you speak volumes about your own competency.


oh, now i believe my stuff is similar to Silverstein's? wow.

Jestik


quality posts: 50 Private Messages Jestik
BootsBoots wrote:Oh Kdeuce, you're such a good artist. Of course you shouldn't withdraw this, but I do feel like it should be rejected (nothing personal). It's just that so many designs before have been rejected because "similar shirts exist" and I like consistency. I'm very anal.


Is there room for one more on the bandwagon ???

soupist


quality posts: 0 Private Messages soupist
Re: The Dandy Lion

You GMV kdeuce. And remember this:

Listen to the MUSN'TS, child,
Listen to the DON'TS
Listen to the SHOULDN'TS
The IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
Listen to the NEVER HAVES
Then listen close to me –
Anything can happen, child,
ANYTHING can be.


Shel Silverstein (1932 - 1999)
Source: Where the Sidewalk Ends: Poems and Drawings, Page: 27

kdeuce


quality posts: 7 Private Messages kdeuce
soupist wrote:You GMV kdeuce. And remember this:

Listen to the MUSN'TS, child,
Listen to the DON'TS
Listen to the SHOULDN'TS
The IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
Listen to the NEVER HAVES
Then listen close to me –
Anything can happen, child,
ANYTHING can be.


Shel Silverstein (1932 - 1999)
Source: Where the Sidewalk Ends: Poems and Drawings, Page: 27



: ]

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
eHalcyon wrote:I have to disagree with this. I find kdeuce's style to be very distinct and, usually, very aesthetically pleasing. There's something really appealing to me in the inky quality of his designs.

I've also noticed you remarking that many of kdeuce's designs look like they come from vector packs or live traces, but I don't see that either. The only design I remember of kdeuce's that I ever thought looked livetraced was his first entry, with the grenade. The designs I've seen since then all seem hand-drawn to me, almost always in his style.

I respect that you don't like the style, but I find it extremely tasteless to continue accusing kdeuce of using stock photos or stock vectors or whatever. He's been through plenty of derbies - if he'd been doing anything suspicious, chances are that someone would have already found his sources. Wooters are notoriously good at that kind of thing.

I still think this design should be rejected, but these attacks against kdeuce are ridiculous.


It's not that he even has sources. It looks common. It looks thoughtless. It looks like the imitation of art. It's not that he uses vector art, but it has that same impersonal look, that same generic feel. It's almost all in the same "style", but I don't see much of anything stylistic. It's an Emperor Has No Clothes situation to me.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
AdderXYU wrote:It's not that he even has sources. It looks common. It looks thoughtless. It looks like the imitation of art. It's not that he uses vector art, but it has that same impersonal look, that same generic feel. It's almost all in the same "style", but I don't see much of anything stylistic. It's an Emperor Has No Clothes situation to me.


That's fair. But it's also subjective. In my opinion, kdeuce's work is quite stylistic with plenty of personality and pull. And I find that the great majority of his designs share an important characteristic with many of the great designs by tgentry, Cho and the other derby greats - wearability.

I can respect your opinion. But where you use the term "common", I see it as "distinct." When I look at the thumbnails I can usually tell if the piece is by Fable, or rglee, or sokowa, or cho or tgentry. It's the same with kdeuce. You see something unappealing in his work that most others don't see. Or perhaps all those who are voting see something that you miss. But it's all a matter of perspective; it's unfair to say that your opinion is right and those who disagree are all wrong.

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

BrickCitySinger


quality posts: 0 Private Messages BrickCitySinger

You know, you've been fighting this fight with just about everyone on this website for the better part of a week now. You take this stance of the purity of art and creativity it what's important. With any venue of creativity there's ALWAYS a strong element of subjectivity. That's why artistic movements come and go. When you study any artistic era you have to remember that there are also people who didn't like that style during that time period.

Is it really so hard to concede that other people might just have different subject tastes and aren't necessarily wrong?

You should also take a moment to realize that this website doesn't run a weekly fine arts contest. This a shirt design contest which opens up the parameters a little bit allowing for this fuzzy grey area that we're in now. Sure the concept used in this design wasn't original (even if kduece didn't know it at the time), but the visual aesthetic that he his and applied to the concept clearly is. There's an obvious different between his shirt and all the other similar designs that have been shared. Much like there's an obvious different between his disegn and the style used by Shel Silverstein. Once you understand that fact you can then move on to realizing that whether or not you like the design means nothing in regards to the quality of the work. There's a reason everyone is allowed to vote and one wooter isn't given the final decision. Suck it up and deal. You live in a democracy and should be used to this sort of thing by now.

Atomic Rainbow

treebirdoctopus


quality posts: 0 Private Messages treebirdoctopus
Re: The Dandy Lion


The elephant with the red balloon got rejected because it was too similar to existing shirts. This one is obviously very similar to existing shirts (whether intentional or not). Shouldn't the same rules apply? Or do they judge rejections based on individual designers. Seems like a black and white issue to me.

Kwatson29


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Kwatson29
Re: The Dandy Lion


Nicely done! All the shirts in the Fog are great! Good luck! GMV

bryozoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bryozoan
AdderXYU wrote:This comment proves why you people are so wrong.


Adder:

You are a detriment to this community, with general, blanket insults to every other member *far* too often, including these derogatory jabs at the majority of voters, and generally a lack of knowledge of what the site actually likes, art, or even general topics under discussion. Simple post volume and "all caps" yelling does not make you more of an expert then anybody else.

Once or twice saying something as generally offensive as this would be understandable, but this kind of widespread "you are all idiots" post every single derby at whichever piece you decide to deride (usually one of the more popular pieces), simply has gotten old.

The once or twice you actually pointed out a significant breach of rules has been drowned by your "cry wolf" volume of insults, pointless badgering of the contributors, and inability to accept that not everyone has your opinion on what they want to wear on their own torso.

xkrimsonheartx


quality posts: 0 Private Messages xkrimsonheartx
Re: The Dandy Lion


this design is simple and cute. I'd definitely buy this shirt.. crossing my fingers, hope it wins ^_^

lwoodnj


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lwoodnj
AdderXYU wrote:Allow me to shock you then.

I just cannot get into this "style" of splotchy backgrounds and lines that look like they bled ink. To me this is one more example of wooters being unable to really analyze what they're voting for


To me, this is just one more example of people using the word "wooters". That seriously needs to stop. I can take you about as seriously when you say that as I can when someone uses the word "Sheeple".

Was your anger over this shirt absolved in the same way my anger towards you was by posting?

lwoodnj


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lwoodnj
jjtenbensel wrote:I love your execution and style in this, but it does remind me a lot of this.


I'd love your execution.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'm sure there's a strong possibility that the artist saw a picture of umbrellas on some weird, random site and said: Here, here is my source of inspiration, here is what I will copy. And sure, maybe the two designs have only the idea of a dandelion in common, but COME ON, isn't that enough to convict a man of plagiarism? I mean, how many people could possibly find dandelions appealing in art? Like, 2? It's possible I should be down on my knees thanking you for your swift, efficient detective work in uncovering this heinous plot.

Of course, more likely, you're just a moron.

How did you even find that?

krouth


quality posts: 2 Private Messages krouth
AdderXYU wrote:Allow me to shock you then.

I just cannot get into this "style" of splotchy backgrounds and lines that look like they bled ink. To me this is one more example of wooters being unable to really analyze what they're voting for

I am so glad that are on this site to continuously point out to us 'ignorant' wooters what true tee-shirt art is all about. You are a shining beacon of hope, showing the poor misguided rabble here at Woot what true tee-shirt artistry is all about. Please forgive all of the many misguided fools who voted for shirts that you didn't like. Anyone who created something as beautiful as this is truly a tee-shirt master.

garot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages garot
AdderXYU wrote:It's not that he even has sources. It looks common. It looks thoughtless. It looks like the imitation of art. It's not that he uses vector art, but it has that same impersonal look, that same generic feel. It's almost all in the same "style", but I don't see much of anything stylistic. It's an Emperor Has No Clothes situation to me.


Hey numnuts, if you could actually draw you might even be worth listening to.

Until then: S.T.F.U

k thx

ellobie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ellobie

WANT!

lwoodnj


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lwoodnj
snarkygal wrote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Concur.

crowjane


quality posts: 0 Private Messages crowjane
krouth wrote:I am so glad that are on this site to continuously point out to us 'ignorant' wooters what true tee-shirt art is all about. You are a shining beacon of hope, showing the poor misguided rabble here at Woot what true tee-shirt artistry is all about. Please forgive all of the many misguided fools who voted for shirts that you didn't like. Anyone who created something as beautiful as this is truly a tee-shirt master.


hahha... i laughed out loud. xD

jacobwratten


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jacobwratten

great design really love it

fyrefly58


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fyrefly58
Re: The Dandy Lion

Very similar to a threadless shirt although there are differences.
http://www.threadless.com/product/1083/Let_s_Go_Parasoling

fungalgrowth


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fungalgrowth
garot wrote:Hey numnuts, if you could actually draw you might even be worth listening to.

Until then: S.T.F.U

k thx


You just resorted to one of the worst argument tactics ever.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
fungalgrowth wrote:You just resorted to one of the worst argument tactics ever.


Woot: Where people who can only marginally draw cannot critique people that also only marginally can draw, as dictated by people who cannot draw at all.

sirrix


quality posts: 2 Private Messages sirrix
ansharp wrote:At threadless alone, there are several examples of this exact idea. Here are a few:

Let's Go Parasoling
Supercalidandelion
Dandelion Riders

Sure, the last two were never printed, but the artists still own the rights to the designs and could sue for plagiarism. Not to mention, I'm sure I've seen other design like this elsewhere.


Umm... I'm an attorney. Allow me to educate you a little: (1) You can't sue anyone for "plagiarism." (2) When you submit designs to sites like this you lose all rights to them. If anything, Woot could sue (but then probably only if they had printed it, which you admit 2 of them didn't.) (3) The fact that there are 4 other shirts in this thread that are similar in nature all designed by different people pretty much means that the idea is a common idea, which makes it not protectable by intellectual property laws like copyright. (4) You're an WAFFLES! TASTY WAFFLES! who searches for t-shirts involving people traveling on dandelions which quite possibly makes you a homosexual.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
sirrix wrote:Umm... I'm an attorney. Allow me to educate you a little: (1) You can't sue anyone for "plagiarism." (2) When you submit designs to sites like this you lose all rights to them. If anything, Woot could sue (but then probably only if they had printed it, which you admit 2 of them didn't.) (3) The fact that there are 4 other shirts in this thread that are similar in nature all designed by different people pretty much means that the idea is a common idea, which makes it not protectable by intellectual property laws like copyright. (4) You're an WAFFLES! TASTY WAFFLES! who searches for t-shirts involving people traveling on dandelions which quite possibly makes you a homosexual.


1) you most certainly can. People have sued God. I'd argue you could also win such a suit, but no matter.

2) when you WIN at one of these sites you lose all print rights to the design (unless the site says otherwise, which some do). If you do not win, you regain all your rights eventually. Woot wouldn't sue in this case, since woot is printing the piece which is too close for copyright comfort, but Threadless certainly could, and as the artist, the person who designed the first could approach Threadless to sue for them... they make money off Threadless' sales, in the form of possible reprints.

3) So I can have four friends rewrite The Shining, and then my re-write will be considered too common an idea for King to sue me? Awesome! I'm no lawyer, but comments like this make me wonder if you are either.

4) I presume aggravated insult is not legally punishable either, wise law guru? Not to mention a number of people mentioned the similarities. It was obvious enough to multiple people, who are also apparently all homosexual. But hey, I can see why you'd be upset at people caring about contracts, copyright, and other legal matters, since people clearly call more experienced and intelligent attorneys for those cases.

toe2254


quality posts: 0 Private Messages toe2254
AdderXYU wrote:1) you most certainly can. People have sued God. I'd argue you could also win such a suit, but no matter.

2) when you WIN at one of these sites you lose all print rights to the design (unless the site says otherwise, which some do). If you do not win, you regain all your rights eventually. Woot wouldn't sue in this case, since woot is printing the piece which is too close for copyright comfort, but Threadless certainly could, and as the artist, the person who designed the first could approach Threadless to sue for them... they make money off Threadless' sales, in the form of possible reprints.

3) So I can have four friends rewrite The Shining, and then my re-write will be considered too common an idea for King to sue me? Awesome! I'm no lawyer, but comments like this make me wonder if you are either.

4) I presume aggravated insult is not legally punishable either, wise law guru? Not to mention a number of people mentioned the similarities. It was obvious enough to multiple people, who are also apparently all homosexual. But hey, I can see why you'd be upset at people caring about contracts, copyright, and other legal matters, since people clearly call more experienced and intelligent attorneys for those cases.


1) by definition plagiarism applies to literary works.

2) you cannot copyright an idea, only your execution of it.

3) comparing apples to oranges. now, if four people copied a Rembrandt and signed his name to it they'd be guilty of forgery, but if they signed their own they would not.

4) while i wasn't a big fan of this design and felt it should have been rejected under the "similar shirts exist" rule, there's nothing illegal about it.

ansharp


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ansharp
sirrix wrote:Umm... I'm an attorney. Allow me to educate you a little: (1) You can't sue anyone for "plagiarism." (2) When you submit designs to sites like this you lose all rights to them. If anything, Woot could sue (but then probably only if they had printed it, which you admit 2 of them didn't.) (3) The fact that there are 4 other shirts in this thread that are similar in nature all designed by different people pretty much means that the idea is a common idea, which makes it not protectable by intellectual property laws like copyright. (4) You're an WAFFLES! TASTY WAFFLES! who searches for t-shirts involving people traveling on dandelions which quite possibly makes you a homosexual.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I love that being an ass also means I'm gay. And what if I am gay? I wish I were, so that this would be even MORE hilarious.

Seriously, I was trying to be helpful, as usual. I knew I had seen other examples of this concept the moment it was entered. As soon as I had a chance, I looked for them. It took 2 minutes to find those examples on threadless. I posted my opinion of the design, not the designer, and this is the way I'm treated. Ah, the internet! How I love thee!

itsbeth


quality posts: 0 Private Messages itsbeth
krouth wrote:I am so glad that are on this site to continuously point out to us 'ignorant' wooters what true tee-shirt art is all about. You are a shining beacon of hope, showing the poor misguided rabble here at Woot what true tee-shirt artistry is all about. Please forgive all of the many misguided fools who voted for shirts that you didn't like. Anyone who created something as beautiful as this is truly a tee-shirt master.


A point: you has it.

dartstothesea


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dartstothesea
Re: The Dandy Lion

Dang, i love this!

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