Derby #124: Naughty and Nice
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Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)

Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)
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ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Heh well, at first I didn't see it...then I did and I couldn't unsee it. So I edited the entry- hopefully if you liked the original, you'll still like this version :P

Anyway- I wanted to do something happy tree friends-y, and came up with this idea. I had a ton of fun working on the design once I finally worked out a lot of the logistics (which were for some reason extremely difficult)- hope you get some enjoyment of out it :D

Draug


quality posts: 69 Private Messages Draug
ramyb wrote:Heh well, at first I didn't see it...then I did and I couldn't unsee it. So I edited the entry- hopefully if you liked the original, you'll still like this version :P


You mean they weren't babies in the first sub?

Still...I'm on the fence for this one.

The enemy's gate is down.
Writers are people too! (Albeit strange ones.)
Save Poe! Reckon Nevermore! Or he'll be head-locked forevermore!

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
ramyb wrote:Heh well, at first I didn't see it...then I did and I couldn't unsee it. So I edited the entry- hopefully if you liked the original, you'll still like this version :P


Unsee what? They weren't supposed to be human babies?

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Oh they weren't human babies? Oh I thought they were!!! That's kind of what I was 'eewwwing' about.

This is still a bit too extreme for me, which is funny because I love some nasty, gorey stuff. (thank you Japanese horror movies). But it's still a great illustration. Glad those little guys are moles and not babies. I don't like babies..but I don't want to see them smurshed.

kebshop


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kebshop

Yea! It's real live Wack-A-Mole!!!

stingray69


quality posts: 4 Private Messages stingray69
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


The moles deserve it for biting off the squirrel's hands.

smileyfaceman


quality posts: 0 Private Messages smileyfaceman
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I'll say GMV before the standard flame war starts.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
mrwednesday wrote:I feel like I've seen this before


Completely different in style, coloring, and concept. Also Ramy's is a Whack-a-Mole shirt. The one linked is not.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
bassanimation wrote:Completely different in style, coloring, and concept. Also Ramy's is a Whack-a-Mole shirt. The one linked is not.


The concept is a cute thing going through the forest whacking things on the head. Cramming in whack-a-mole doesn't really change that.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
mrwednesday wrote:The concept is a cute thing going through the forest whacking things on the head. Cramming in whack-a-mole doesn't really change that.


I see how the cute animal with a hammer is similar in general concept, but there's no forrest I see. It almost looks like a magician in the background? I see two cute things with large hammers about to beat something, but other than that the two are very different. Recent derby winners have been far closer in concept and execution to existing shirts than I see here. Just my opinion though. It'll be up to Woot.

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
bassanimation wrote:It almost looks like a magician in the background?


It's the fairy... from little bunny foo foo...

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
xazothia wrote:It's the fairy... from little bunny foo foo...


Ah ok. I have no idea how that one goes past the first few words, lol. I just recall the first bit as a song.

avhienda01


quality posts: 0 Private Messages avhienda01
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Totally awesome illustration. I love your use of colors here. You make it look so easy. I think this is one of my favorites of yours in a while.

definitely wouldn't wear it though P:

gibreaux


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gibreaux
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Completely irreverent rendition of Whack-a-Mole. I would buy this in a heartbeat and I would keep a mallet just like this one around to use on anyone who compared it to "Little Bunny FooFoo."

walmazan


quality posts: 64 Private Messages walmazan
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


it's a master piece, You did again!

sittle


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sittle
mrwednesday wrote:I feel like I've seen this before


Wow, you've been into the Bran again eh? Right on time for the 9 am poo poo parade...

Conceptually Ramy's design is based on "whack-a-mole", the other design you note is a rabbit whacking a little mouse and does not play off of the "whack a mole concept".

While the "whack-a-mole" concept isn't that originally, I think Warner Brothers and Acme Mallets have the market cornered on the "Animals-whacked-by-mallets" genre.

Mr Wednesday, while Ramy's design may or may not be that original, I think the idea of you bothering to cite another design that has also been so blatantly covered over the past 20 to 30 years, just shows how desperate you and your pals are at bringing down Ramy and Seki. Also that other design you note is drawn more poorly than most Ramy and Seki designs... just sayin.

With regards to the design, not my favourite design of Ramy's. I think the squirrel could look fluffier and I just don't like how the moles look. The stylization is fine, but the actually drawing of the two main characters are a little undefined.

gijose


quality posts: 4 Private Messages gijose
bassanimation wrote:I see how the cute animal with a hammer is similar in general concept, but there's no forrest I see. It almost looks like a magician in the background? I see two cute things with large hammers about to beat something, but other than that the two are very different. Recent derby winners have been far closer in concept and execution to existing shirts than I see here. Just my opinion though. It'll be up to Woot.


So in effect, it's the cute animal with a hammer, plus his past design for the jungle within, http://s3.amazonaws.com/wootsaleimages/Jungle_Withinww3Detail.png

NYC!

MusingMouse


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MusingMouse
ramyb wrote:I wanted to do something happy tree friends-y, and came up with this idea. I had a ton of fun working on the design once I finally worked out a lot of the logistics (which were for some reason extremely difficult)- hope you get some enjoyment of out it :D


Don't you always do something "tree friends-y?" Or cutesy animal? How is this any different...

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
gijose wrote:So in effect, it's the cute animal with a hammer, plus his past design for the jungle within, http://s3.amazonaws.com/wootsaleimages/Jungle_Withinww3Detail.png


Again, completely different. I do not understand how you guys can keep comparing this to other entries that share very little in common.

wootvan


quality posts: 62 Private Messages wootvan
MusingMouse wrote:Don't you always do something "tree friends-y?" Or cutesy animal? How is this any different...


Yeah, like that darn Monet, always doing outdoor pictures...how about throwing in a bowling alley dude?

And Boticelli...all those women and men...how about a dog--maybe playing poker.

Or Holbein...all those serious folks dressed like they're going to church...how about a hot chick in a bikini (and could you throw in a grin?).

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
mrwednesday wrote:I feel like I've seen this before


lmao mr wednesday. why do you keep comparing ramys designs to stuff that has nothing to do with it? *cough*futurama*cough*

and i know youre very proud of the fact that youve been here for ages, but i really dont believe for one second that you remember every shirt that has printed, especially not when theyre from march 2008 like this one. so the only conclusion i can make is that you spend hours upon hours, searching for designs that look like ramy's, and then even if they dont look remotely the same you try to get ramys rejected. i guess thats...interesting?


as for the design, good thing you resubbed, the first one with the baby heads was wack

colinm09


quality posts: 70 Private Messages colinm09

I'm curious...who would actually wear a shirt like this?

-Matt Colin

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola

The head still looks like an acorn to me and almost phallic for some reason. I'm not overly impressed with this design, but it does not look like those other shirts at all. Nor is the concept the same.

Maybe you guys don't just hate Ramyb, maybe you just need to get some glasses to notice how they do not compare at all. And I'm not "defending" Ramyb, I'm defending obvious observation.

sleepyplushie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sleepyplushie
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I would have liked it better with out the awkward, bloody spikes. The blood also makes it quite creepy, without it it would have been quite cute.

ivoryice


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ivoryice
colinm09 wrote:I'm curious...who would actually wear a shirt like this?


Me. x10 Every day. Too much fun not to.

me2you


quality posts: 1 Private Messages me2you
sleepyplushie wrote:I would have liked it better with out the awkward, bloody spikes. The blood also makes it quite creepy, without it it would have been quite cute.


I agree. I laughed when I saw this, but that blood makes it a shirt that I wouldn't wear.

jasneko


quality posts: 30 Private Messages jasneko
sleepyplushie wrote:I would have liked it better with out the awkward, bloody spikes. The blood also makes it quite creepy, without it it would have been quite cute.

Yes... while I think it's relatively well-done and I especially like the woods background, way too gory and cruel for me.

Poraro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Poraro

Is shirt.woot filled with generally pansyish people who only like cutesy things and shun everything with a hint of gore? It isn't anywhere near bad or over the top in this. I'm not insulting anyone. I just generally see these sorts of comments all over the place when blood is in a shirt.

taninniver


quality posts: 0 Private Messages taninniver
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Personally, since the Harvest derby, I've grown more than a little weary of squirrel shirts in general. Not even going to go INTO the bunnies -_-

lucky1988


quality posts: 20 Private Messages lucky1988
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I prefer this (gory) version. I'm not so sure about the general woot audience though.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
lucky1988 wrote:I prefer this (gory) version. I'm not so sure about the general woot audience though.


I think I do too, so I decided to take down the other version. I apologize to all the people who think this is too gory, but I think there are enough non-gory shirts to choose from anyway, and I don't think this shirt is too over the top for me. Plus, the theme is about cute animals doing something horrible, and I think this better falls under that category for me :P

Thanks to everyone for the support on this, I was pretty amused with the idea and am glad that some of you are too

theinfinityloop


quality posts: 6 Private Messages theinfinityloop
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)

This idea is very clever, but two things ruin it for me: the exhausted chibi style and the spikes on the mallet. I actually don't mind the blood, but I don't think the spikes are necessary. The instrument feels unbelievable and forced. Losing the spikes and drawing it in a more unique and personalized style would give this substance, in my opinion.


tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Personally I like it better without the blood (my kid could wear the bloodless one, this one not as much). What stands out to me in either version is the great color choices. They really pop off the shirt.

beaterbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beaterbar
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


probably my favorite of your shirts for awhile

JustLikeYou


quality posts: 0 Private Messages JustLikeYou
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I'd like to see a close up/full size image of those halftones in the back of the trees.

There's no way they're going to print that small, and you know it's going to look like scaffolding.

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
theinfinityloop wrote:This idea is very clever, but two things ruin it for me: the exhausted chibi style and the spikes on the mallet. I actually don't mind the blood, but I don't think the spikes are necessary. The instrument feels unbelievable and forced. Losing the spikes and drawing it in a more unique and personalized style would give this substance, in my opinion.


I couldn't agree more. Conceptually, this design is one of your strongest in some time. But that squirrel's face is beyond irritating. It's one thing for faces to be stylized, but the eyes are distractingly low, and the mouth looks like a wound.

AkuX


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AkuX
colinm09 wrote:I'm curious...who would actually wear a shirt like this?


I don't understand people who post things like this. People wear different things. Do you look at goth people and think "Why would they wear that?", or people who wear pajamas outdoors, or any other "weird" clothes?

It's all preference, I would much rather wear this shirt than any of drakxxx's shirts. Not that I don't think he's an amazing artist, it's just his art style doesn't appeal to me as something I'd wear on a shirt. However, it seems many people here love his designs on shirts, and I respect that.

srm8ib4


quality posts: 5 Private Messages srm8ib4
Leahbh wrote:you have to complain about anything ramyb posts. I don't like all his stuff, but you just complain to complain. this shirt is not like the one you posted. get over it.



I have to agree; they are pulling scaffolding out of thin air. No design is going to be totally original. You're going to have similarities if you go out looking for then. Every week, the same people go out trying to find any way to get ramy's designs rejected. It gets to the point where it becomes really annoying.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
JustLikeYou wrote:I'd like to see a close up/full size image of those halftones in the back of the trees.

There's no way they're going to print that small, and you know it's going to look like scaffolding.


They actually aren't very small at all- halftones are all about tricking the eyes into blending colors based on their proximity and arrangement. If you look at the halftones up close, they are actually quite large- people always have a hard time believing this, but that's what they are there to do.

Anyway, here's the closeup you asked for:



I'll be sure to send my print-ready file in to woot with enough time for them to review it and make sure it's printable, but woot's printing abilities are actually quite good, and I own several shirts with halftones much smaller than this that have turned out great

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
JustLikeYou wrote:I'd like to see a close up/full size image of those halftones in the back of the trees.

There's no way they're going to print that small, and you know it's going to look like scaffolding.


Actually, I've seen two recent derby shirts in person, both with very tiny halftoning work that looked great. PPens Platypuss shirt and Sky Fishing shirt. Both of these had very fine halftones. They look fantastic in person, so I doubt this will be any different. I prefer the smaller halftoning to the big ones. The Binge's halftones are just big and they are extremely distracting in person.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
Poraro wrote:Is shirt.woot filled with generally pansyish people who only like cutesy things and shun everything with a hint of gore? It isn't anywhere near bad or over the top in this. I'm not insulting anyone. I just generally see these sorts of comments all over the place when blood is in a shirt.


I think it's the 'wearing' of gore that bugs people. I love horror films, so gore is totally something I'm used to. But, displaying it prominently on your chest is a whole other ballgame. The general public is squeamish, so if you wear one around you'll probably upset some folks. :\ Not worth the feeling of making somene else feel bad.

I still really like this image overall. I agree with a few of the crits here, but it's still pretty funny and well done. Alas...I'll have to pansy out too.

tri3frog


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tri3frog

I don't think the general public (in USA) is so squeamish about gore. Violence and the machismo that goes with it is well permeated in our culture. It is completely fine to have Wile Coyote try to blow Road Runner to bloody bits, or a power ranger cut some monster in half, or video games to rip someone's spine out. Whereas it is a mortal sin if someone's kid sees a nipple in a movie (Almost Automatic Rated R). People who are whining about this shirt are just trolls, plain and simple. If you want to criticize, at least make it constructive. Coming in here and getting your tighty whities in a bunch helps no one.

sbaszto


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sbaszto

The idea of this shirt fits the derby theme well, and I think it has artistic merit... however, as a person who enjoys a good cute shirt, I have reached my limit of appreciating this same design style. In fact, I think we have even seen this squirrel before in Grim Optimism. I might even tolerate more cute squirrel/woodland creatures on shirts if they didn't look so similar in drawing style. I feel like Ramy is resting in a comfort zone of things that have derbied well in the past. It'd be great if he could push himself artistically beyond these cookie cutter variations of chibi animals.

Pinque13


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Pinque13

While I normally LOVE your work and own several shirts of yours, I just can't vote for this one....I was excited to see what you'd enter for this derby, because this theme is so my style...but I just do not like the way you applied your vision to the theme, your cute "style" is generally something I love about your work, but this just oozes such un-needed violence. I see a cute animal being bludgeoned to death and I feel sad

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
sbaszto wrote:The idea of this shirt fits the derby theme well, and I think it has artistic merit... however, as a person who enjoys a good cute shirt, I have reached my limit of appreciating this same design style. In fact, I think we have even seen this squirrel before in Grim Optimism. I might even tolerate more cute squirrel/woodland creatures on shirts if they didn't look so similar in drawing style. I feel like Ramy is resting in a comfort zone of things that have derbied well in the past. It'd be great if he could push himself artistically beyond these cookie cutter variations of chibi animals.


That's pretty much it. It's too bad, because as other have pointed out, this design has a solid concept and great colors. It doesn't need to be chibi, and the chibi style undermines it.

TobiasAmaranth


quality posts: 24 Private Messages TobiasAmaranth
jmmbell1987 wrote:That's pretty much it. It's too bad, because as other have pointed out, this design has a solid concept and great colors. It doesn't need to be chibi, and the chibi style undermines it.


This!

That is my entire opinion of this shirt, and I'm pleased to see others feeling the same way, especially right at the bottom when I click in.

I think that concept and detail-wise this shirt is really good, much moreso than previous derbies. I'm pleased with the color usage, etc.

But I cannot stand the use of 'chibi' for this shirt. It. Does. Not. Need. It. What it needs, is a squirrel with semi-proper anatomy and proportions. It's designs like this that make me think the artist really doesn't know how to actually draw proper anatomy. This likely isn't the case, but it sure comes across that way.

I like well drawn animals, and anthropomorphics like in Fantastic Mr. Fox. I would love to see more shirts with that sort of style. I'm tired of the chibi look for animal shirts. I want something new.

Support Fablefire: Follow her on -

Paradox55


quality posts: 1 Private Messages Paradox55
TobiasAmaranth wrote:This!


It's designs like this that make me think the artist really doesn't know how to actually draw proper anatomy. This likely isn't the case, but it sure comes across that way.


Unfortunately, it IS true. Neither Ramy or Seki have demonstrated the ability to draw proper anatomy. Not everyone can, and this would be ok, if they had something else to fall back on instead of the same old, same old chibi.

Poraro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Poraro
TobiasAmaranth wrote:This!

That is my entire opinion of this shirt, and I'm pleased to see others feeling the same way, especially right at the bottom when I click in.

I think that concept and detail-wise this shirt is really good, much moreso than previous derbies. I'm pleased with the color usage, etc.

But I cannot stand the use of 'chibi' for this shirt. It. Does. Not. Need. It. What it needs, is a squirrel with semi-proper anatomy and proportions. It's designs like this that make me think the artist really doesn't know how to actually draw proper anatomy. This likely isn't the case, but it sure comes across that way.

I like well drawn animals, and anthropomorphics like in Fantastic Mr. Fox. I would love to see more shirts with that sort of style. I'm tired of the chibi look for animal shirts. I want something new.

I kind of doubt this would be in the fog if it weren't for the chibi art-style and because of this I really can't blame ramy for keeping that style.

gesangbaer


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gesangbaer
mrwednesday wrote:I feel like I've seen this before


Dude ... 'wack a mole' vs. 'little bunny foo foo'. c'mon.

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
Poraro wrote:I kind of doubt this would be in the fog if it weren't for the chibi art-style and because of this I really can't blame ramy for keeping that style.


Really? There are several other non-chibi designs in the fog. This design's main appeal has nothing to do with chibi.

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
jmmbell1987 wrote:Really? There are several other non-chibi designs in the fog. This design's main appeal has nothing to do with chibi.


Between the two of you, the point about chibi working for or against this design is mostly irrelevant because there aren't enough other "chibi" designs (however you want to define that) in the derby to say whether the fog would or would not be dominated by them.

just my 2 cents

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
xazothia wrote:Between the two of you, the point about chibi working for or against this design is mostly irrelevant because there aren't enough other "chibi" designs (however you want to define that) in the derby to say whether the fog would or would not be dominated by them.

just my 2 cents


That is a fair point, and bad argument on my part.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
ramyb wrote:They actually aren't very small at all- halftones are all about tricking the eyes into blending colors based on their proximity and arrangement. If you look at the halftones up close, they are actually quite large- people always have a hard time believing this, but that's what they are there to do.

Anyway, here's the closeup you asked for:



I'll be sure to send my print-ready file in to woot with enough time for them to review it and make sure it's printable, but woot's printing abilities are actually quite good, and I own several shirts with halftones much smaller than this that have turned out great


After the massive changes to Blue Moon and A Dangerous Concoction from the comp you submitted to the print ready that you submitted to woot, why would anyone believe you? You've consistently made your halftones and lines too small to print and then modified them after the fact so that woot can print them. It's just that your fans never take any time to look at the actual design so they don't notice the bait and switch.

And as always, when you've used halftones that are too small you only provide a tiny snapshot with no real reference point so that no one can see that it's modified because they don't have the entire image.

SirSquinty


quality posts: 0 Private Messages SirSquinty
mrwednesday wrote:After the massive changes to Blue Moon and A Dangerous Concoction from the comp you submitted to the print ready that you submitted to woot, why would anyone believe you? You've consistently made your halftones and lines too small to print and then modified them after the fact so that woot can print them. It's just that your fans never take any time to look at the actual design so they don't notice the bait and switch.

And as always, when you've used halftones that are too small you only provide a tiny snapshot with no real reference point so that no one can see that it's modified because they don't have the entire image.


What a Negative Nancy.

Cry me a friggin river, Wednedsay, and go harass someone else's thread. We're so over you.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
jmmbell1987 wrote:I couldn't agree more. Conceptually, this design is one of your strongest in some time. But that squirrel's face is beyond irritating. It's one thing for faces to be stylized, but the eyes are distractingly low, and the mouth looks like a wound.


ramy's animals don't change facial expression

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Poraro wrote:I kind of doubt this would be in the fog if it weren't for the chibi art-style and because of this I really can't blame ramy for keeping that style.


That doesn't make this good, or artistic, or worth supporting, though.

That is the issue. It works, fine. What does that say about woot and wooters? It says they have no taste. Flat out simple.

Woot's own FAQ insists on ORIGINAL shirts, and EXCLUSIVE shirts. if all we get is a winning formula, where is that?

We should INDEED hold people accountable for only doing "what works". It's the bare minimum. It's uncreative. Saying "I don't blame him" is saying you don't value doing more, or being creative. You SHOULD blame him. It speaks volumes about how little character someone has if they are never willing to do anything but what is easiest and popular.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
mrwednesday wrote:After the massive changes to Blue Moon and A Dangerous Concoction from the comp you submitted to the print ready that you submitted to woot, why would anyone believe you? You've consistently made your halftones and lines too small to print and then modified them after the fact so that woot can print them. It's just that your fans never take any time to look at the actual design so they don't notice the bait and switch.

And as always, when you've used halftones that are too small you only provide a tiny snapshot with no real reference point so that no one can see that it's modified because they don't have the entire image.


While I certainly don't disagree with this assessment (which is incredibly valid if anyone cared to keep track) it is moot, because that color, against this blank, would be INVISIBLE anyway.

Not that, again, Ramy wouldnt alter it between now and printing.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
banzaaiii wrote:lmao mr wednesday. why do you keep comparing ramys designs to stuff that has nothing to do with it? *cough*futurama*cough*

and i know youre very proud of the fact that youve been here for ages, but i really dont believe for one second that you remember every shirt that has printed, especially not when theyre from march 2008 like this one. so the only conclusion i can make is that you spend hours upon hours, searching for designs that look like ramy's, and then even if they dont look remotely the same you try to get ramys rejected. i guess thats...interesting?


as for the design, good thing you resubbed, the first one with the baby heads was wack


You'd be quite wrong. I nearly purchased the shirt, but didn't think I'd wear it enough. I can't help that you don't believe people can possess this magical thing called "memory." As for the shirts ramy has had rejected, the reason they are getting rejected is because a .28 second google search pulls up multiple instances which are the first or second link. It takes less than 5 minutes to search the entire fog. I tattle on everything I find regardless of the artist, I can't help that the only ones getting found and rejected are ramys. Woot didn't feel the platypus shirts from last derby were close enough.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
AdderXYU wrote:It speaks volumes about how little character someone has if they are never willing to do anything but what is easiest and popular.


I sort of agree with you here, to a point. However, the goal of submitting to this derby is to win it. I know you don't like that, but it is a contest. Why would someone change if they were consistently popular and won frequently? You are essentially fulfilling the goal of the contest.

I understand your frustration (shocking!) with the same sort of art style winning all the time. Someone once stated that it was the voters who decide. I thought it was a crappy thing to say at the time, but in the end, they're right. A lot of stuff I want doesn't win, but it's just not something you can change. In the end, if more people want this over that, then this is going to win. You can't blame the artists for giving people what they scream for the loudest. I dont necessarily agree with this, but I can definately see it's appeal. It stings pretty bad when you do try and go outside the box and you get ignored for it. I've seen it happen to many artists, on and off Woot.

TheyKilledKenny


quality posts: 2 Private Messages TheyKilledKenny
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


Still Rocks!!!

Excuse Me Maam, Your Woot is Showing...

theinfinityloop


quality posts: 6 Private Messages theinfinityloop
bassanimation wrote:I sort of agree with you here, to a point. However, the goal of submitting to this derby is to win it. I know you don't like that, but it is a contest. Why would someone change if they were consistently popular and won frequently? You are essentially fulfilling the goal of the contest.

Yes, a goal is certainly to win it, but an additional goal is to grow as an artist. For me, that, along with not wanting to be bored and disgusted with myself is a perfectly good reason to change. Both goals can and should be maintained simultaneously.

bassanimation wrote:A lot of stuff I want doesn't win, but it's just not something you can change. In the end, if more people want this over that, then this is going to win. You can't blame the artists for giving people what they scream for the loudest. I dont necessarily agree with this, but I can definately see it's appeal. It stings pretty bad when you do try and go outside the box and you get ignored for it. I've seen it happen to many artists, on and off Woot.

The appeal is indeed apparent. Everyone is tempted and probably has succumbed at least once to pushing their inspiration aside to just make another sure-win but unimaginative design. But constantly defending and supporting and accepting this mentality just keeps the cycle going. It keeps "stinging" the artists who want to think differently and bring new, fresh things to this site. Being stung is something we have to deal with. Having tough skin should be a requirement for any artist. Pushing through the attempts that are ignored is worth being able to, not only create something that is new and truly an expression of yourself, but win and successfully sell it as well.


akd85


quality posts: 0 Private Messages akd85
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I like the gore. I don't like cute animals though.

good concept though.

WOOTZing

adbaxter


quality posts: 0 Private Messages adbaxter
bassanimation wrote: However, the goal of submitting to this derby is to win it. I know you don't like that, but it is a contest. Why would someone change if they were consistently popular and won frequently?


As I recall from the longlongago, Woot exercised editorial control by cracking down on the number of pirates, zombies and such that were printing all the time. (See Derby 17.) They could do so again--no chibi animals, no designs dominated by half tone swirls. Or they could reject some of the entries for recycling design elements.

Note the FAQ--"shirts produced and sold by Woot featur[e] a wide variety of design styles and subject matter."

So I suppose Woot not standing up to their obviously popular but tired prize artists is what is making Adder mad. And it makes me sad, too. All I ever want to buy is tgentry shirts...

brewmasterfinny


quality posts: 0 Private Messages brewmasterfinny

*Ahem* RABBLE! RABBLE! RABBLE!

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
theinfinityloop wrote:The appeal is indeed apparent. Everyone is tempted and probably has succumbed at least once to pushing their inspiration aside to just make another sure-win but unimaginative design. But constantly defending and supporting and accepting this mentality just keeps the cycle going. It keeps "stinging" the artists who want to think differently and bring new, fresh things to this site. Being stung is something we have to deal with. Having tough skin should be a requirement for any artist. Pushing through the attempts that are ignored is worth being able to, not only create something that is new and truly an expression of yourself, but win and successfully sell it as well.


i think the bolded part is kind of important. i dont think it is as easy as you make it seem to "just make another sure-win but unimaginative design". if it is then i suggest you make one of those, and one of the more artsy designs for submission. there is time aplenty if it is so easy.
i have a theory that you actually do need talent to be able to pull "cookie cutter" designs out of thin air every week, and make them good enough for people to vote on so it wins. if you dont need any such thing as talent or skill, then i dont see why some of the nay sayers dont try it for a week or two and cash in. (whats funnier is some of the angriest people never submit anything, or even come up with ideas). put "artistic integrity" aside for just one or two weeks, see if it really is as easy to win as some people make it seem. preferably you should still submit your "good" artwork too, and see how it compares, and also prove that your cookie cutter design isnt your best work, or required lots of time to make.

i see how the old timers on this site are sick of the usual designs (after all they have been here forever), but i think generally describing the ones that win as suckage, is stupid, and it should be respected that as long as people want a certain style (cute chibi, swirly swirls, you name it), then there will be some designs using that style. it does not make the artists that make them bad artists, or lacking in "artistic integrity". in fact, if you are to go by the derby, they are the best artists.

i guess the age old art contest vs t-shirt contest arguement applies yet again. in theory a derby is both, but (perhaps unfortunately) in woot derbies, the t-shirt contest aspect is far more important, as people vote on t-shirts they want to wear. this has to be taken into consideration when designing if you wish to do more than improve your artisitc skills, and the way you do this is by giving the voters what they want. other media are better suited for the purely artistic side of these designs, than woot is. (once again, perhaps unfortunately) the artists on this site can do very little to change woot, only the voters can. as you said, all you can do is submit your artsy designs, and hope that they win, but even then they will only win if they contain the elements of a design that wooters want (which in general can be described by the word "cute").

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
banzaaiii wrote:snip


I think you've missed the point. No other artist here has a 300+ guaranteed voting block. I don't think you really appreciate the vast numbers of people brought in from gaia and DA by ramy and seki specifically to vote for their designs. He doesn't have to do well with the voting community here. If he gets 400 or 500 votes from wooters he'd never print but when you add in the external votes who vote for whatever he draws regardless of the quality you get a very high number of wins. This is especially ironic because given your username, join date, number of shirts and the number of posts which are probably 90-100% in ramy threads, you're one of them.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
theinfinityloop wrote:The appeal is indeed apparent. Everyone is tempted and probably has succumbed at least once to pushing their inspiration aside to just make another sure-win but unimaginative design. But constantly defending and supporting and accepting this mentality just keeps the cycle going. It keeps "stinging" the artists who want to think differently and bring new, fresh things to this site. Being stung is something we have to deal with. Having tough skin should be a requirement for any artist. Pushing through the attempts that are ignored is worth being able to, not only create something that is new and truly an expression of yourself, but win and successfully sell it as well.


Thanks for the comment, and I really agree with you on all of these very good points.

Also, I think people are seriously misunderstanding my defenses of Ramy and/or Seki. My defenses of them are more due to what I see as personal issues/crusades against them. I think they're talented in their own right, so the constant beligerant behavior towards them just sets me off. I'm not defending the 'cycle' of sameness. Do I wish they would try some new stuff? Of course I do. Do I love only chibi art of cute animals? No. I do like it, but I like a lot of stuff. I'm always pleased to see some new types of art make the placement here. Lord knows I don't want an entire closet of chibi animal shirts...

I also agree with you about changing and growing as an artist. I hope everone can enjoy the derby as a challenge for themselves, not just to win. Winning rocks, but it's also just fun to make the art and learn new things.

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
mrwednesday wrote:I think you've missed the point. No other artist here has a 300+ guaranteed voting block. I don't think you really appreciate the vast numbers of people brought in from gaia and DA by ramy and seki specifically to vote for their designs. He doesn't have to do well with the voting community here. If he gets 400 or 500 votes from wooters he'd never print but when you add in the external votes who vote for whatever he draws regardless of the quality you get a very high number of wins. This is especially ironic because given your username, join date, number of shirts and the number of posts which are probably 90-100% in ramy threads, you're one of them.


i have never voted for, or bought, a ramy or seki design, just fyi. EDIT: actually i bought "imposter", but it wasnt for me.
and yes, we've all heard the "fake vote" excuse. but its not worth much without any evidence, and just makes you come off as the anal old dingleberry you are. the fact that their shirts sell out and stay in the reckoning show that even if there was any basis in those accusations, they sell extremely well, so it is not likely that he has hundreds of votes from "friends off of gaia and DA", and woot voters actually hate him and seki like you do (btw, are you still claiming you have nothing against ramy, or did you move away from that and decide to come out of the hater closet?)

SirSquinty


quality posts: 0 Private Messages SirSquinty
mrwednesday wrote:I think you've missed the point. No other artist here has a 300+ guaranteed voting block. I don't think you really appreciate the vast numbers of people brought in from gaia and DA by ramy and seki specifically to vote for their designs. He doesn't have to do well with the voting community here. If he gets 400 or 500 votes from wooters he'd never print but when you add in the external votes who vote for whatever he draws regardless of the quality you get a very high number of wins. This is especially ironic because given your username, join date, number of shirts and the number of posts which are probably 90-100% in ramy threads, you're one of them.


If they get most of their votes from outside sites, and the only reason that they win is due to 'external voters,' how do you explain the continued success of 'Grim Optimism' which remained in the Reckoning for about 37 or 38 weeks, or the new shirt 'Computer Mice,' which has been around for almost a month, or 'Imposter,' which has been around for almost A FULL YEAR?

Regardless of the votes cast for it to win, many of Ramyb's and Sekiyoku's shirts continue to sell for a long time after their initial printing. So your information is faulty, and your personal vendetta is getting really irritating, so I suggest you leave them alone and move on in life.

kender42


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kender42
SirSquinty wrote:If they get most of their votes from outside sites, and the only reason that they win is due to 'external voters,' how do you explain the continued success of 'Grim Optimism' which remained in the Reckoning for about 37 or 38 weeks, or the new shirt 'Computer Mice,' which has been around for almost a month, or 'Imposter,' which has been around for almost A FULL YEAR?

Regardless of the votes cast for it to win, many of Ramyb's and Sekiyoku's shirts continue to sell for a long time after their initial printing. So your information is faulty, and your personal vendetta is getting really irritating, so I suggest you leave them alone and move on in life.


Look at another way. They could have submitted all of those shirts as daily entries and had Woot take them and sell them. Instead they have entered them into a competition where others are also entering. Other people are working hard to get their votes. IF it were ever proven that someone was generating 300 votes per derby through less than ethical means then I think you can agree they are taking advantage of the system and spitting in the face of fair competition.

Just b/c a athlete keeps performing well doesn't change the fact that he illegaly used steroids to get there. Once he is caught they will strip him of all his records and kick him out of the sport. Nobody will care that he is still the #1 athlete in his sport and could still score 800 times a game and in doing so ensure a win every single time.

theinfinityloop


quality posts: 6 Private Messages theinfinityloop
banzaaiii wrote:
i have a theory that you actually do need talent to be able to pull "cookie cutter" designs out of thin air every week, and make them good enough for people to vote on so it wins. if you dont need any such thing as talent or skill, then i dont see why some of the nay sayers dont try it for a week or two and cash in.

Sure, you have to have abilities, technique, knowledge of software, etc. Those things can count as talents I suppose. But if I only did that, I would feel like a machine, not an artist.

banzaaiii wrote:(once again, perhaps unfortunately) the artists on this site can do very little to change woot, only the voters can. as you said, all you can do is submit your artsy designs, and hope that they win, but even then they will only win if they contain the elements of a design that wooters want (which in general can be described by the word "cute").

Sometimes people don't know they like something until they see it. Peoples' wants constantly change. So artists can do something by providing them new things. Instead of following behind the trends and being controlled by them, why not try to stay ahead of it? It's all about balance. Be aware of the audience, but don't be shackled to it.


banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
theinfinityloop wrote:Sometimes people don't know they like something until they see it. Peoples' wants constantly change. So artists can do something by providing them new things. Instead of following behind the trends and being controlled by them, why not try to stay ahead of it? It's all about balance. Be aware of the audience, but don't be shackled to it.


yeah that is true, and i do think people should submit their own "original" designs, of course. the point wasnt for people not to do that. the point was that i dont think subitting "sure-win" designs is as easy as you make it, so i would like to see it be done. if you can submit your regular shirt design, and then also an easy, cookie cutter one that is a sure-win week after week, i will swallow my words. i just dont think its as easy as you made it sound

kender42


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kender42
kender42 wrote:Look at another way. They could have submitted all of those shirts as daily entries and had Woot take them and sell them. Instead they have entered them into a competition where others are also entering. Other people are working hard to get their votes. IF it were ever proven that someone was generating 300 votes per derby through less than ethical means then I think you can agree they are taking advantage of the system and spitting in the face of fair competition.

Just b/c a athlete keeps performing well doesn't change the fact that he illegaly used steroids to get there. Once he is caught they will strip him of all his records and kick him out of the sport. Nobody will care that he is still the #1 athlete in his sport and could still score 800 times a game and in doing so ensure a win every single time.


BTW this post was not meant to imply that I believe raymb cheats. I have actually had some pms with him and he answered some questions so that one day I can start entering the derby.

theinfinityloop


quality posts: 6 Private Messages theinfinityloop
banzaaiii wrote:yeah that is true, and i do think people should submit their own "original" designs, of course. the point wasnt for people not to do that. the point was that i dont think subitting "sure-win" designs is as easy as you make it, so i would like to see it be done. if you can submit your regular shirt design, and then also an easy, cookie cutter one that is a sure-win week after week, i will swallow my words. i just dont think its as easy as you made it sound

I already agreed that it does take certain abilities, but I don't understand what it would prove if it is indeed harder than I implied. Hard doesn't necessarily equal unique and personal expression.


banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
theinfinityloop wrote:I already agreed that it does take certain abilities, but I don't understand what it would prove if it is indeed harder than I implied. Hard doesn't necessarily equal unique and personal expression.


it was based on your other post:

theinfinityloop wrote:. Everyone is tempted and probably has succumbed at least once to pushing their inspiration aside to just make another sure-win but unimaginative design. .


you make it sound like making a winning design is something you can do at will, but you choose not to. it seems like you talk about designs like this, typical woot designs that win over and over, and that they are so easy to do anyone can do it, and it is way below your level as an artist.

"just making a sure-win, but unimaginative design" sounds so easy. my point is that i think it is not. hence, please set your artistic integrity aside for a week or two, and make a sure-win design, in addition to your regular design.

the reason i point this out is because it is something a lot of people say, im not just singling you out. whenever ramy/seki submit a design you always get the regular "Our Movie Genre, this leaps into the vacuum, its so easy to do, do something new, no artistic skill at all, stop winning, you have no integrity for doing this over and over, you have no imagination, try making real art for once, this is a rip off from futurama, a shirt made 2 years ago doesnt even resemble this one but i think it should be rejected, blargghhugububu ffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ"

people always make it seem like these designs are worth nothing (except $1000), and that everyone can do it (in their own style though i guess, i dont mean chibi animals). its like "oh i could win if i tried and had no integrity"

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
SirSquinty wrote:If they get most of their votes from outside sites, and the only reason that they win is due to 'external voters,' how do you explain the continued success of 'Grim Optimism' which remained in the Reckoning for about 37 or 38 weeks, or the new shirt 'Computer Mice,' which has been around for almost a month, or 'Imposter,' which has been around for almost A FULL YEAR?

Regardless of the votes cast for it to win, many of Ramyb's and Sekiyoku's shirts continue to sell for a long time after their initial printing. So your information is faulty, and your personal vendetta is getting really irritating, so I suggest you leave them alone and move on in life.


The voting community and the purchasing community are largely distinct. You get all cases. Shirts with 1300 votes and a win will not sell out and get reckoned a week later. Shirts with 700 at third will sell out and last on the reckoning list. Shirts that never won a single derby will get an EC and sell out and last on the reckoning list.

There are over 1 million woot accounts. Shirts are commonly selling 3000 in their first day and lasting for months on end. The top shirts have sold 16000. If every purchase was a vote and every purchaser was voting, why are the vote totals generally not above 900?

You'll notice that most of the shirts that have been on the reckoning for a long time were bought by people who opened an account just to buy the shirt. Some of them stay and vote but most of them don't. The bottom line is that votes in the derby have never been predictive of sales.

As for Grim Optimism, it's been reckoned and had been teetering at the bottom for months. Each time it sat at 21st until Monday when it shot up to 20th just before the close. ramy and seki are aware of the position of their shirts and they buy them back into the reckoning themselves (and they have more than enough winnings to do so) or they get others to buy them. When woot broke the reckoning and hid the rankings in the reckoning during the week, ramys and sekis shirts plummeted because they couldn't actively maintain their positions.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
banzaaiii wrote:snip"


Every artist here can make cute chibi animals that are shiny. The linework is trivial and the shiny is photoshop effects. I'd wager the better artists could do it well enough that you couldn't tell the difference. Chibi art is by definition easy. It's supposed to be easy. It's beginner art for people who want to draw in a japanese/anime style. Look up the youtube videos of tutorials. They don't even have to use time progression because the linework only takes a few minutes.

theinfinityloop


quality posts: 6 Private Messages theinfinityloop
banzaaiii wrote:you make it sound like making a winning design is something you can do at will, but you choose not to.

I was trying to make a point. But we can nitpick it, sure. There is no way I can and would say that I could win the Derby at will. My choice of words may have implied that, and I see they may have hit a trigger. My bad. However, I can say that there have been times where I came up with ideas that I chose not to do because I felt they were truly not me, even if I had a gut feeling they would do well.

And I suppose one could come back and say that Ramy and Seki feel like their designs ARE true expressions of themselves. I think it would be more convincing if we saw THEIR PERSONAL drawing style instead of the stock anime-ish style. I think we saw a glimpse of Ramy's here. That's a beautiful piece, IMO.



dmaz


quality posts: 12 Private Messages dmaz
mrwednesday wrote:ramy's animals don't change facial expression


<3 ytmnd reference, lol. Also, I'm not too worried even if ramy does intend on changing the half-tones. Winning the Race and Goldfish of Doom are most likely going to blow competition out of the water, and i'd keep my eye out for the Benjamin Bunny one

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
theinfinityloop wrote:I was trying to make a point. But we can nitpick it, sure. There is no way I can and would say that I could win the Derby at will. My choice of words may have implied that, and I see they may have hit a trigger. My bad. However, I can say that there have been times where I came up with ideas that I chose not to do because I felt they were truly not me, even if I had a gut feeling they would do well.

And I suppose one could come back and say that Ramy and Seki feel like their designs ARE true expressions of themselves. I think it would be more convincing if we saw THEIR PERSONAL drawing style instead of the stock anime-ish style. I think we saw a glimpse of Ramy's here. That's a beautiful piece, IMO.


That IS a beautiful illustration, and one I hadn't seen before. And this is one reason why I defend Ramy when he gets attacked for being a hack. I've seen him do great work, but people just seem to skim right over it.

Some people really do love to draw cute stuff though. I agree artists should stretch out, but there's nothing wrong with being successful by doing what you love the most. It's like a dream come true. If you stretch out and nobody notices, then it feels like a personal fail. It's just the human nature of us. We desire attention and praise for our work. There's nothing wrong with it and we all hope our work is liked by others.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
bassanimation wrote:That IS a beautiful illustration, and one I hadn't seen before. And this is one reason why I defend Ramy when he gets attacked for being a hack. I've seen him do great work, but people just seem to skim right over it.

Some people really do love to draw cute stuff though. I agree artists should stretch out, but there's nothing wrong with being successful by doing what you love the most. It's like a dream come true. If you stretch out and nobody notices, then it feels like a personal fail. It's just the human nature of us. We desire attention and praise for our work. There's nothing wrong with it and we all hope our work is liked by others.


But that's the reason he is a hack. You'd never know it from anything he does now, but he used to do quite a lot of highly detailed realistic pieces. Until he realized there was absolutely no money in it. But there is money in anime fanart and chibi is ridiculously easy and it sells. His heart isn't in a single thing he draws here. There was about a 2 derby window where he tested the waters to see if anything else might be profitable. Shiny swirl designs were, things like The Open Sea weren't. So he kept the swirls and scrapped everything else. Even without the derby theme, he was coming back to the cutesy animals because his shirts were falling off the reckoning. Every design is calculated based off of what will sell.

Poraro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Poraro
mrwednesday wrote:As for Grim Optimism, it's been reckoned and had been teetering at the bottom for months. Each time it sat at 21st until Monday when it shot up to 20th just before the close. ramy and seki are aware of the position of their shirts and they buy them back into the reckoning themselves (and they have more than enough winnings to do so) or they get others to buy them. When woot broke the reckoning and hid the rankings in the reckoning during the week, ramys and sekis shirts plummeted because they couldn't actively maintain their positions.

Despite your obvious hate bias towards both of them (I'm not saying you never do have a point, but yeah) you really have to admit Imposter is a pretty awesome shirt.

Also, do you actually have any proof of them buying their own shirts, or are you just pulling it out of your arse?

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
Poraro wrote:

Also, do you actually have any proof of them buying their own shirts, or are you just pulling it out of your arse?


its one of his favorite dingleberries, along with the "ramy/seki have 300 votes from friends that they can call on instantly", and the "this is so easy, anyone can do it, other people just dont want to win like this". and lets not forget "this is a ripoff from futurama", that one in particular is exceedingly big and juicy.

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
mrwednesday wrote:But that's the reason he is a hack. You'd never know it from anything he does now, but he used to do quite a lot of highly detailed realistic pieces. Until he realized there was absolutely no money in it. But there is money in anime fanart and chibi is ridiculously easy and it sells. His heart isn't in a single thing he draws here. There was about a 2 derby window where he tested the waters to see if anything else might be profitable. Shiny swirl designs were, things like The Open Sea weren't. So he kept the swirls and scrapped everything else. Even without the derby theme, he was coming back to the cutesy animals because his shirts were falling off the reckoning. Every design is calculated based off of what will sell.


obviously what he should do then is keep doing the stuff that doesnt sell, stop eating due to lack of money, die, and then get recognized as one of the worlds greatest artists after his death

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
banzaaiii wrote:obviously what he should do then is keep doing the stuff that doesnt sell, stop eating due to lack of money, die, and then get recognized as one of the worlds greatest artists after his death


That would have made him not a hack, yes.

edit:

Though I'd like you to find even one artist who absolutely needs to win derbies to survive and feed themselves on a daily basis. You'll find they all have jobs or are otherwise taken care of regardless of the money they may or may not be making here.

I'll also take your no comment to mean you have followed ramy here. Based on your hackneyed posting style and poor grasp of logic, my best guess is gaia.

Poraro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Poraro
mrwednesday wrote:That would have made him not a hack, yes.

edit:

Though I'd like you to find even one artist who absolutely needs to win derbies to survive and feed themselves on a daily basis. You'll find they all have jobs or are otherwise taken care of regardless of the money they may or may not be making here.

I'll also take your no comment to mean you have followed ramy here. Based on your hackneyed posting style and poor grasp of logic, my best guess is gaia.

You're constantly moaning to the wrong people here. There's nothing wrong with making extra money for something PEOPLE LIKE that YOU seem to not like. Moan to the wooters voting, not the people making shirts that the wooters vote for thus making ramy and seki make more of them shirts because that's obviously what people want.

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
Poraro wrote:Moan to the wooters voting, not the people making shirts


Where else is he supposed to do that?

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
mrwednesday wrote:That would have made him not a hack, yes.

edit:

Though I'd like you to find even one artist who absolutely needs to win derbies to survive and feed themselves on a daily basis. You'll find they all have jobs or are otherwise taken care of regardless of the money they may or may not be making here.

I'll also take your no comment to mean you have followed ramy here. Based on your hackneyed posting style and poor grasp of logic, my best guess is gaia.


i dont even know what gaia is, but im glad to see you have found yet another topic of conspiracy theory. it is without a doubt your favorite passtime, making those up.

what is the no comment thing you are referring to?

as for hackneyed posting, i do not bother with capitalization or apostrophes as it is a hassle, and word takes care of it for me when i write stuff that matters (forum posts online do not, even though you believe they do)

im sure it is easy for you to give up $1000 a month or more, in order to not be a "hack", but then again, thats not really a position youre in. you must either be decently rich, or balderah to do that. if you make designs you know wont win, then theres no point in continuing with that, unless you purely consider it practice, which i guess is fine. personally i would at least make one "easy sure-win" design, and then focus on my practice, and submit it later if that was the case. but thats just me, i enjoy an extra $1000 for a few hours work.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
mrwednesday wrote:But that's the reason he is a hack. You'd never know it from anything he does now, but he used to do quite a lot of highly detailed realistic pieces. Until he realized there was absolutely no money in it. But there is money in anime fanart and chibi is ridiculously easy and it sells. His heart isn't in a single thing he draws here. There was about a 2 derby window where he tested the waters to see if anything else might be profitable. Shiny swirl designs were, things like The Open Sea weren't. So he kept the swirls and scrapped everything else. Even without the derby theme, he was coming back to the cutesy animals because his shirts were falling off the reckoning. Every design is calculated based off of what will sell.


So, you're basically mad because Ramy wants to be successful and wants his art to be desired. The things the voters have shown they desire to not match with what you desire in art, which angers you. It sounds to me like you're just mad because people's tastes tend to lean towards something you don't appreciate. I understand that well, (coughTransformersmoviescough), but screaming about it won't change it.

I understand totally where you are coming from, I do. But I also have to see it from the other side. We all want to be successful. Whether that means money or votes or whatever, all artists want to be successful. While I think doing the same thing over and over is kind of boring, I think it's wrong to accuse someone of poor character just for wanting to do well with their work . I don't have to like what they're doing, but I can't blame them for it.

I wish people would understand my own dual feelings on this issue, honestly. It's a very tough, tough area for anyone who's in the creative world. Part of you wants to express yourself, part of you wants financial success for your work. Being successful for what some think is mediocre work does not make you a hack. Plus that is purely subjective anyhow. There are some great burger joints out there that make wonderful food, but people still loves them some processed McDonalds. :\ They're not going to stop eating McD's..ever.

PS: Sorry to Tformers fans. I own and love some of the most terrible movies of all time, don't feel too bad.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
mrwednesday wrote:That would have made him not a hack, yes.


Seriously? You'd rather someone die than win these derbies? Wow. You'r a real winner of a person Mr. W. Talk about character...yeeeesh. For just a minute I thought we were going to have a nice discussion, but then I saw this.

Also, by your very speaking of RamyB being a hack by earning money for his work, you just called a LOT of people in this competition hacks. Hmmm, I wonder how all the other professionals feel about that... -shrugg-

-walks away- This scaffolding is getting too gross to even respond to anymore. If anyone wants to continue to talk directly to me, just PM.

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
bassanimation wrote:Seriously? You'd rather someone die than win these derbies? Wow. You'r a real winner of a person Mr. W. Talk about character...yeeeesh. For just a minute I thought we were going to have a nice discussion, but then I saw this.

-walks away- This scaffolding is getting too gross to even respond to anymore. If anyone wants to continue to talk directly to me, just PM.


I think he was being facetious, bass. It's not necessarily tasteful, but it's facetiousness nonetheless.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
bassanimation wrote:snip


You think it's wrong to accuse someone of poor character because you've blinded yourself to the overwhelming evidence that proves that they don't have character. You will hear many stories about the otakon fiasco and at the very best, ramy overrepresented himself and his artwork by taking advantage of loopholes in the rules to circumvent regulations meant to offer space to everyone in the artist gallery.

It is verifiable that seki created hundreds of fake accounts on DA to pad her popularity and increase her notoriety so that they could make more money at said cons by being a name because she was banned for it.

There is no indication that the same transgressions haven't continued here. Their arrival coincided nicely with tons of new accounts with rabid opinions about how wonderful all of their work was but who never seemed to buy any shirts or only enough to have a voting account.

They have ranged from stealing concepts (Grim Optimism from DA, Godless Killing Machines from the Colbert Report), to rarely staying on theme, to ignoring the only rule here that woot rarely enforces that the designers do their best to create original and exclusive designs. Woot rarely enforces it because 99% of the artists here care about their own work and don't require a rejection to keep honest.

I'll grant that you have only been here recently but they have all but said as much that they are only in it for the cash and they don't care what the community thinks. They have repeatedly ignored very legitimate criticism and woot has allowed them to get away with it. Before you start crying, blame woot, we have. And just as many threads have been made directly to woot staff. But they are responsible for the work they produce and as many have said, talk to the voters. This is the only venue to talk to the voters.

I have mentioned it before but many like to belittle the derby that, "it's only a shirt" or "it's only $1000" while in the same breath saying how significant that $1000 is and that it is not only acceptable but laudable to shill out whatever schlock will make you money.


You should know as well as anyone that the $1000 commission is just a drop in the bucket. ramy and seki have made over $100,000 here in the past year and they know better than anyone that the votes are just the first step. Submission time matters. Until recently, hotness position matters. Having and keeping your place in the hotness greatly influences the transient votes a design garners and there have been many instances of very sketchy voting patterns involving their shirts and the hotness.

Getting a win does not mean that you will sell and it does not mean that your design will be popular. They have sold plenty of duds and they have had shirts not print that would probably have sold very well. With the amount of cash they are bringing in, it is imperative that they get prints so that the money doesn't stop flowing and in every other arena they have shown that they are more than willing to cheat to increase their popularity and profitability.

You can continue to naively believe that there is some personal vendetta against their style that motivates everything. It's much easier to believe and I'm sure you can continue to convince yourself of that. Yet all you do is hurt your own reputation and you insult the other artists here who do their best to follow the rules and the spirit of the competition and won't compromise just to line their wallet. It is unfortunate that many of them cannot speak up for fear of retribution but even you have been here long enough to see that many are speaking up because they along with everyone else are tired of the rehashed garbage.

The saddest part is that woot does have a great artist community which could be better but the powers that be at woot also only care about sales. And many artists have gone elsewhere and many more are extending themselves to the other sites which care about creativity and originality and that. The winning designs here have already begun to homogenize massively in under a year's time and it's only going to get worse.

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


..... and ultimately this will lead to the destruction of the world in 2012. (i know youre one of the believers mr. wednesday)

dmaz


quality posts: 12 Private Messages dmaz
banzaaiii wrote:..... and ultimately this will lead to the destruction of the world in 2012. (i know youre one of the believers mr. wednesday)


Haha, I'm fairly new here, but I remember when this whole drama happened on ytmnd for a spell. If only I knew I could have been applying my artistic skills to something that has the chance of making money this whole time, I'd have meself a new computer

xespera


quality posts: 0 Private Messages xespera
mrwednesday wrote: *A wall of text* ... otakon fiasco ...taking advantage...fake accounts...

...stealing concepts (Grim Optimism from DA, Godless Killing Machines from the Colbert Report)...99% of the artists here care about their own work and don't require a rejection to keep honest...

ramy and seki have made over $100,000 here ... and they have had shirts not print that would probably have sold very well. ...they are more than willing to cheat to increase their popularity and profitability...

You can ..believe that there is some personal vendetta...you insult the other artists here who do their best to follow the rules. It is unfortunate that many of them cannot speak up for fear of retribution...


Wow, quite the wall of text.

First off, you accuse Ramby of stealing specific images from DA, yet you defended the Draxx / TGentry Ceiling Cthulu even though it's been done before as well.

mrwednesday wrote:The rejection for "similar shirts exist" that you have recently campaigned against out of either ignorance or bias is for one thing and one thing alone. Similar shirts existing. Travis is absolutely correct and there aren't similar shirts.



Past that, yes, they have made shirts that would have sold very well that didn't win.
They also made shirts that Did sell very well, and have survived in the reckoning (At a respectable position) for a long time.

I don't know how many times I've seen people jump to the conclusion that a shirt they didn't like won only because the artist cheated (A few of the ones I've seen be so maligned survived the reckoning for weeks, while their competition was out first week, and in some cases failed to outsell their votes).

It is an easy thing to do, to distrust a person and impugn their character. The problem is, I see that cry the loudest on the shirts that sell the best.

So, here's a thought experiment. What if they ARE cheating? How are they doing it?
They'd need the accounts, sure, but if they just flooded the votes on a terrible and unloved shirt, their sales would be terrible.
It's happened before that shirts sold badly (near vote count). It's happened This Week. If they ran up the votes, it would happen to them. Their sales would be SIGNIFICANTLY different from their foggy neighbors.
If they want to cheat, but not be caught, they'd need to do like almost everyone else. Sell more shirts than they have votes.

Sure, it's a $1k pot, but 3k sold first day would cost them 30X their intake to pull off. To turn the profit, they'd have to cut off at 99 shirts, making $10 profit for their effort and the derby.

So, each shirt sold after the first 100 would be a person who may have legitimately voted for the shirt (After all, 'I'd want one' is what it says).

Find them selling less than their neighbors. Find this oddity and wave it from the flag tops.
Use THAT as your claim. Please.

Moving on to manipulation claims, of all the tricks you say Ramby and Seki use to get their shirts seen (Hotness manipulation and the like) you forget one.


Thread activity from flame wars.


I do agree with you on one thing: it's very sad this is a community where artists are not speaking up for fear of retribution. People really seem to get off on flaming them every chance they get. It'd be great if the community would take a breath and try to support the artists they love rather than lambasting those they hate. But, I guess that's just a dream.

tl;dr? Chill. Find some shirts you like and talk nice about them. Try to get the shirts you like to get more attention. Your life doesn't have to revolve around hate.

isparabola


quality posts: 8 Private Messages isparabola

What cracks me up is that no one will win this argument ever.

People who like these shirts (for whatever reason) will continue liking them regardless of ramy's (and seki's) intentions. They make shirt designs to make money, for no other reason and that will not change. Woot also greatly profits from this so unless it's obvious plagiarism then they will continue to allow it.

Did they cheat to get famous? Probably. But it's obvious that not everyone cares about that.

Point is they meet a specific target audience that will never change their view regardless of anything.

And artists who may be more deserving of print will suffer for it, and those who actually like good t-shirts will have to look other places for it.

I suggest keeping a bookmark on adder's blog, he may be opinionated but he's got good taste in t-shirts and it's a lot easier than checking out the dozen t-shirt sites every day.

The funny thing is they CAN draw and they DO have talent but they choose to use the standard scaffolding anime shiny that sells. I think that's what bugs a lot of people the most.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
xespera wrote:
So, here's a thought experiment. What if they ARE cheating? How are they doing it?
They'd need the accounts, sure, but if they just flooded the votes on a terrible and unloved shirt, their sales would be terrible.
It's happened before that shirts sold badly (near vote count). It's happened This Week. If they ran up the votes, it would happen to them. Their sales would be SIGNIFICANTLY different from their foggy neighbors.
If they want to cheat, but not be caught, they'd need to do like almost everyone else. Sell more shirts than they have votes.

I do agree with you on one thing: it's very sad this is a community where artists are not speaking up for fear of retribution.


That's why I dont understand the cheating accusations. If R and S are cheating, how come their shirts win by fairly high margins, and stay on the Reckoning for so long and sell like gangbusters?

Also, yes, it's horrible that artists cant speak up for -fear of retribution-. Long ago I mentioned a few things about myself that I thought were harmless. Now I'm constantly reminded of how aweful a person I am by people who don't know me 9_9. (how friendly!) I definitly advise artists to stay quiet. Never talk about wanting to win. Never defend anyone. Never draw cute animals....LOL!

And now, the "Stop playing a victim, Bass!" posts shall commence. I'm either too arrogant or playing the victim. They can't make up their minds.

adbaxter


quality posts: 0 Private Messages adbaxter
bassanimation wrote:That's why I dont understand the cheating accusations. If R and S are cheating, how come their shirts win by fairly high margins, and stay on the Reckoning for so long and sell like gangbusters?


As pointed out earlier, the voting and wooting populations are probably quite distinct. If you hang out in the derby every week and visit the site every day, you've seen a ton of chibi style/swirly style shirts go by week after week. If you drop in once in a while when you think to, you're more likely to just see "OH CUTE SHINY" and buy (I have nearly done this at times). Relative reckoning position seems to have nothing to do with derby votes--new designs with tons of votes go in one week; the Raven endures.

I'm willing to say that Grim Op and You've Got to Try This are decent shirts, even if they aren't that technically/artistically demanding and are not my style. The complaint is that those shirts (or similar ones) are already for sale, and we keep getting the same stuff. Blech.


Never talk about wanting to win. Never defend anyone. Never draw cute animals....LOL!


Take comfort in the fact that you do cute a WHOLE lot better than r/s, Bass. Best wishes to your designs.

SirSquinty


quality posts: 0 Private Messages SirSquinty
mrwednesday wrote:As for Grim Optimism, it's been reckoned and had been teetering at the bottom for months. Each time it sat at 21st until Monday when it shot up to 20th just before the close. ramy and seki are aware of the position of their shirts and they buy them back into the reckoning themselves (and they have more than enough winnings to do so) or they get others to buy them. When woot broke the reckoning and hid the rankings in the reckoning during the week, ramys and sekis shirts plummeted because they couldn't actively maintain their positions.


mrwednesday wrote:Every design is calculated based off of what will sell.


1. Where do you get your proof for this at ALL? I can't help but feel you are quite simply, making things up.

2. I don't see what's wrong with that...that's generally the idea of the product market...(i.e. EVERYTHING you buy)

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
SirSquinty wrote:1. Where do you get your proof for this at ALL? I can't help but feel you are quite simply, making things up.

2. I don't see what's wrong with that...that's generally the idea of the product market...(i.e. EVERYTHING you buy)


It's called the reckoning list. Click that little link that says "reckoning" on the top right of the page. It will show you updated rankings for all shirts on the list. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. All the old posts are saved so you can go back and look at how the rankings have changed. I'm really not here to do that for you and if you don't care enough to even look, it's pretty clear you only care about your narrow minded view. And I could ask you the same, your view is based on what or are you just making up reasons?

Junka


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Junka
mrwednesday wrote:Every artist here can make cute chibi animals that are shiny. The linework is trivial and the shiny is photoshop effects. I'd wager the better artists could do it well enough that you couldn't tell the difference. Chibi art is by definition easy. It's supposed to be easy. It's beginner art for people who want to draw in a japanese/anime style. Look up the youtube videos of tutorials. They don't even have to use time progression because the linework only takes a few minutes.

Could you link to the tutorials you speak of? And the names of the effects?
You've posted about these lighting photoshop effects a few times this derby and the last derby but it is unclear to this photoshop user what effects you mean. After looking up youtube tutorials as you said, the videos all showed the shine and lighting being drawn in like everything else is, so please share your own finds.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
Junka wrote:Could you link to the tutorials you speak of? And the names of the effects?
You've posted about these lighting photoshop effects a few times this derby and the last derby but it is unclear to this photoshop user what effects you mean. After looking up youtube tutorials as you said, the videos all showed the shine and lighting being drawn in like everything else is, so please share your own finds.


You must be using an older version of Photoshop, Junka. The newer versions have a "Make Art" menu. Choose "Chibi" as your subset and adjust the settings at will. There's even an option to add lens flares and unicorns.

I am sure Mr W can find tutorials for you about how to draw chibi. I can also find you a thousand other tutorials about how to do -any- kind of art. That whole argument is worthless to me, as there's multitudes of how-to's for everything out there. They make entire magazines about how to various styles of art.

grotepas


quality posts: 0 Private Messages grotepas
mrwednesday wrote:But that's the reason he is a hack. You'd never know it from anything he does now, but he used to do quite a lot of highly detailed realistic pieces. Until he realized there was absolutely no money in it. But there is money in anime fanart and chibi is ridiculously easy and it sells. His heart isn't in a single thing he draws here. There was about a 2 derby window where he tested the waters to see if anything else might be profitable. Shiny swirl designs were, things like The Open Sea weren't. So he kept the swirls and scrapped everything else. Even without the derby theme, he was coming back to the cutesy animals because his shirts were falling off the reckoning. Every design is calculated based off of what will sell.


Good for him! He understands free-market enterprise and entrepreneurialism, which maybe you don't. I don't buy his shirts and I don't like the chibi stuff, and I certainly don't like the swirly stuff. However, artists have to eat too.

Do you also go to the amazon.com forums and rage about how crappy Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson are for selling out literary writing just to earn a buck? Those hacks! How can they live with the shame! I'll tell you, they laugh at whiners like you all the way to the bank where they cash their humongous checks.

grotepas


quality posts: 0 Private Messages grotepas
mrwednesday wrote:

They have ranged from stealing concepts (Grim Optimism from DA, Godless Killing Machines from the Colbert Report), to rarely staying on theme, to ignoring the only rule here that woot rarely enforces that the designers do their best to create original and exclusive designs. Woot rarely enforces it because 99% of the artists here care about their own work and don't require a rejection to keep honest.

I'll grant that you have only been here recently but they have all but said as much that they are only in it for the cash and they don't care what the community thinks. They have repeatedly ignored very legitimate criticism and woot has allowed them to get away with it. Before you start crying, blame woot, we have. And just as many threads have been made directly to woot staff. But they are responsible for the work they produce and as many have said, talk to the voters. This is the only venue to talk to the voters.


Didn't know all this. If it's true, then it is a shame. But newcomers will not know these things simply because you spew venom about style or how shirt designs look like old shirt designs.

My suggestion? Compile your evidence in a blog, every time a Ramy or Seki design goes up, post a link to the web site. That would be one hundred percent more effective than the raging angry posts that simply turn people off.

If you don't think this kind of idea works, let me steer you toward the Cassandra Clare (City of Bones YA author) debacle and the Harry Potter fan fiction stuff. Same kind of thing. I didn't know about it until I'd read her horrible book. Very upsetting. Much like this sounds. I don't like cheaters prospering, and I'm sure most T-shirt/Woot fans don't. But expecting every voter to know what you know is silly. We don't.

Get our sympathy the way a lawyer gets a jury's sympathy.

kender42


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kender42
bassanimation wrote:You must be using an older version of Photoshop, Junka. The newer versions have a "Make Art" menu. Choose "Chibi" as your subset and adjust the settings at will. There's even an option to add lens flares and unicorns.

I am sure Mr W can find tutorials for you about how to draw chibi. I can also find you a thousand other tutorials about how to do -any- kind of art. That whole argument is worthless to me, as there's multitudes of how-to's for everything out there. They make entire magazines about how to various styles of art.


I am going to have to find a chibi tutorial, I want to be a chibi artist too! I didn't know about the chibi setting in photoshop though. I didn't even know about livetrace until the debates in here about a couple shirts. Livetrace is a huge help though when importing your sketches into photoshop. So I figure maybe this chibi setting may have a use.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
Junka wrote:Could you link to the tutorials you speak of? And the names of the effects?
You've posted about these lighting photoshop effects a few times this derby and the last derby but it is unclear to this photoshop user what effects you mean. After looking up youtube tutorials as you said, the videos all showed the shine and lighting being drawn in like everything else is, so please share your own finds.



I'm comfortable you can figure it out. Also, grow some balls. Post under your real account.

SirSquinty


quality posts: 0 Private Messages SirSquinty
mrwednesday wrote:It's called the reckoning list. Click that little link that says "reckoning" on the top right of the page. It will show you updated rankings for all shirts on the list. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. All the old posts are saved so you can go back and look at how the rankings have changed. I'm really not here to do that for you and if you don't care enough to even look, it's pretty clear you only care about your narrow minded view. And I could ask you the same, your view is based on what or are you just making up reasons?


I'm not arguing that Grim Optimism persisted on the reckoning for a long time. I'm arguing that you have no proof that Ramyb and Seki cheated to 'bump' their designs back up. Show me proof and I'll believe you.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
SirSquinty wrote:I'm not arguing that Grim Optimism persisted on the reckoning for a long time. I'm arguing that you have no proof that Ramyb and Seki cheated to 'bump' their designs back up. Show me proof and I'll believe you.


I never said they cheated. There's certainly nothing illegal about buying your shirts or telling others to do so, but they are very cognizant of the position of their shirts because the reckoning is where you make money not the $1k prize. When popular shirts in the past have been close to reckoning there has always been a lot of chatter about it. Foremost among these was "The Cake is a Liar" and "Angry Day." Every time it dipped close to 20th people started talking about buying them to make sure it didn't reckon. Yet Grim Optimism sat at 21st for many weeks in a row with no mention and would only regain 20th late Monday before the reckoning took place then fall back to 21st because it wasn't selling. That's not a sign of the community banding together to keep it from reckoning. It's an artist keeping their shirts on the list, one way or another, to keep the possibility of further sales. I never said there was anything illegal about this, but it does show where their interests lie and it's not in producing quality shirts.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
grotepas wrote:Good for him! He understands free-market enterprise and entrepreneurialism, which maybe you don't. I don't buy his shirts and I don't like the chibi stuff, and I certainly don't like the swirly stuff. However, artists have to eat too.

Do you also go to the amazon.com forums and rage about how crappy Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson are for selling out literary writing just to earn a buck? Those hacks! How can they live with the shame! I'll tell you, they laugh at whiners like you all the way to the bank where they cash their humongous checks.


Capitalism is NOT reason enough to do something.

There is more to life than money. If all you care about is money, your life is meaningless. And vicariously, if all you care about in your art is money, your art is meaningless.

It is wrong to perpetuate that. It debauches the meaning of true creativity if all you care about is selling. What is meaningful is what comes out of pure inspiration and honest inspiration and the spark of caring about what you do. If all you'll do is flood the market with identical junk and choke out the people with the true talent, you are scum, plain and simple. It's sort of like hiring horrible chefs at a chain, or terrible mechanics at Midas or some other auto repair chain. You are doing nothing but strangling the people who truly care, and who do what they do because they have respect for their craft, and if anyone truly doesn't care about that, they are not worth considering. Anyone who supports this choking out of talent for the sake of capitalist gains deserves nothing less than being choked out themselves. Clearly you're OK with it. Step up, man up, and be the first victim if it's so fair.

Junka


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Junka
bassanimation wrote:You must be using an older version of Photoshop, Junka. The newer versions have a "Make Art" menu. Choose "Chibi" as your subset and adjust the settings at will. There's even an option to add lens flares and unicorns.

It took some googling and a second look at your words to realize you are joking! -- right?

mrwednesday wrote:I'm comfortable you can figure it out. Also, grow some balls. Post under your real account.
Well I haven't found them, so please explain what effects you mean and the tutorials where you have seen them used in this way.

This isn't to "support" anyone-- just to find out if what you say is really true since I"m well versed with photoshop and don't know what you mean. Since you are evading an answer and trying to be insulting when faced with a genuine question, it seems more like it isn't actually true. But feel free to post links or names of effects if it is true.

Lothax


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Lothax

New... best... shirt... ever!

This replaces the "Kiss the Great Old One" shirt in my book.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Junka wrote:Well I haven't found them, so please explain what effects you mean and the tutorials where you have seen them used in this way.

This isn't to "support" anyone-- just to find out if what you say is really true since I"m well versed with photoshop and don't know what you mean. Since you are evading an answer and trying to be insulting when faced with a genuine question, it seems more like it isn't actually true. But feel free to post links or names of effects if it is true.


just for starters

Try to find that many books for "learn to paint impressionism." Yknow, since so many people try to equate them as styles.

The anime/manga style is ludicrously popular, stunningly simple to teach, and infinitely marketable. Anyone pretending it's anything but are fooling themselves. It's not to say there can't be good stuff of this style out there, but is to say that it is a genre and style that is hugely profit-based, while other styles are more about characteristics and far more difficult to accurately turn into step-by-step instructions to direct aping.

*ETA: It should be obvious that "infinitely marketable" doesn't mean "good" or "worth marketing" in this case. See also Twilight and Milli Vanilli. Often times, wild popularity is inverse to actual worth.

Mahjongman


quality posts: 18 Private Messages Mahjongman
AdderXYU wrote:It speaks volumes about how little character someone has if they are never willing to do anything but what is easiest and popular.


I wonder what it says about someone's character when almost everything they have to say is nasty, condescending, vitriolic, or judgmental (sometimes we are treated to a grand slam, of course.)

xxchange


quality posts: 44 Private Messages xxchange
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I think it would be much more family-friendly without the blood.

Might be the safer route to go. But I still like it like this.

My Colours: 6 Black, 9 Asphalt, 7 Cranberry, 4 Royal Blue, 10 Navy, 7 Silver, 7 Grass, 2 Orange, 2 Kelly Green, 8 Brown, 1 White, 2 Lemon, 7 Baby Blue, 3 Cream, 2 Heather Gray, 5 Olive, 1 Pink, 1 Eggplant

Last 12 of 85: Little Dreams, Black and White, Fall, I'm not prickley on the inside..., Released, Nature Owl, Mirror Mirror, The Last Day, Playful Foxes Remix, My Special Day, My Special Day Tote, Circuit-ulatory System Remix

beaterbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beaterbar
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I don't think I've ever bought one of this artist's shirts and I usually agree on the whole overuse of manga thing, but I also usually think that the shirts that the more artsy types here tend to champion are boring conceptually. This shirt is a rather clever take on naughty and nice, and while ramy could stand to use some more of his actual skills, it is a fun design. Without artists that make marketable shirts woot would be the 21st century equivalent of a cross-stitch convention with the connoisseurs sitting around and drooling over the intricacies of each other's cthulhu designs and seascapes.

SirSquinty


quality posts: 0 Private Messages SirSquinty
AdderXYU wrote:Capitalism is NOT reason enough to do something.

There is more to life than money. If all you care about is money, your life is meaningless. And vicariously, if all you care about in your art is money, your art is meaningless.

It is wrong to perpetuate that. It debauches the meaning of true creativity if all you care about is selling. What is meaningful is what comes out of pure inspiration and honest inspiration and the spark of caring about what you do. If all you'll do is flood the market with identical junk and choke out the people with the true talent, you are scum, plain and simple. It's sort of like hiring horrible chefs at a chain, or terrible mechanics at Midas or some other auto repair chain. You are doing nothing but strangling the people who truly care, and who do what they do because they have respect for their craft, and if anyone truly doesn't care about that, they are not worth considering. Anyone who supports this choking out of talent for the sake of capitalist gains deserves nothing less than being choked out themselves. Clearly you're OK with it. Step up, man up, and be the first victim if it's so fair.


If the chefs were producing poor quality food that doesn't TASTE good, people wouldn't buy it and the investor's would lose money, regardless of the fact that it's a chain. The fact that it's a monopoly means that they want to produce the same quality at every restaurant (regardless of what that 'quality' is.

Considering that FAR more Wooters appear to like Ramyb's designs than the apparent 'haters' who don't, who are you to decide who the people who 'truly care?' Seen as I am one of his constant supporters, who are you to determine your opinion more 'truthful' than mine? Ramyb is merely appealing to the majority, which is all a company can do to sell their product, really.

After 'Supersize Me' came out, did McDonalds get rid of the Supersize option? Nope, because despite the obvious well-intended haters of the 'supersize' option, the benefits of keeping the product on the market outweighed the cons (the statistically small amount of customers they would lose.)

Point being, if people begin to lose interest in his designs, perhaps he will shift gears and formulate a newer and different style. But until then, he is merely appealing to the masses, and I don't think you have a right to determine who is right and who is wrong (at least over an opinionated matter such as this one.)

ear7631


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ear7631
AdderXYU wrote:Capitalism is NOT reason enough to do something...


Clearly you don't live in the United States. If sticking to the same style means some money in one's pocket to snag a meal, I can see why one would strive to please a fanbase. Does that come at the expense of artistic creativity? Well, as you have attempted to convince everyone in nearly every single Ramyb thread for the past several months, I'll say sure.

So what is it that all artists, that you deem mediocre, must do to meet you standards for derbies? I'm convinced that Ramyb could have a moment of zen, drastically change the style of all the shirts entered in derbies, and you would still keep singing the same song, thread after thread.


With that said, I own two Ramyb shirts, and this will not be my third, mostly due to the faces of the animals, and the blood. I don't wear shirts with blood on them.

Stercrazy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Stercrazy
beaterbar wrote:I don't think I've ever bought one of this artist's shirts and I usually agree on the whole overuse of manga thing, but I also usually think that the shirts that the more artsy types here tend to champion are boring conceptually. This shirt is a rather clever take on naughty and nice, and while ramy could stand to use some more of his actual skills, it is a fun design. Without artists that make marketable shirts woot would be the 21st century equivalent of a cross-stitch convention with the connoisseurs sitting around and drooling over the intricacies of each other's cthulhu designs and seascapes.


You are my hero.
I don't particularly like most of the stuff that Ramyb and Seki do, but I perceive the need for art such as theirs.

Woot would quickly close down the shirt section if they had nothing but artsy designs that got votes but not sales. That's not to say that the artsy shirts don't sell, but I think that the numbers in the reckoning show that the cutesy stuff does have the staying power.

As much as certain folks here would like nothing better than to turn Woot into a gallery for clever internet humor and whatever their idea of "artistic genius" is, I think it's unrealistic to think that EVERY artist should do nothing but that.

Trying to appeal to a sizable demographic that wants a particular style you do doesn't make you a hack or a sellout. It just makes you popular. Ultimately, that's what wins the competition.

I think a lot of the contention here is because the derby is a contest. The object of a contest is to win. That's not to say that there shouldn't be anything but the stuff that will win. There are often multiple designs in the derby that SHOULD win, but don't.

Woot takes into consideration that good designs don't always win to some degree. That's what the second chance derby is for. Awesome shirt you loved not win? Vote for it again when it comes up for a second chance derby.

People here need to stop complaining about how stupid people are for liking stuff they dislike, relentlessly insulting artists they have some problem with, and generally stop behaving like children. There's more to a good critique than just bashing a piece.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
SirSquinty wrote:After 'Supersize Me' came out, did McDonalds get rid of the Supersize option?


For the record, they actually did, although they claim that it had nothing to do with the film

That said, I don't think this should be an argument about capitalism anyway. Every artist has equal opportunity every week, and posts anything they want. Anyone can win in any given week, and voting trends often change drastically over time. I'm not going to feel pressured to change what I'm doing because someone wants to yell about it. Any person watching the derby can be a Monday morning quarterback and say what they knew would win for whatever reason, but in the moment, the only thing any artist can do is the shirts they like best, and the rest is just a matter of crossing our fingers and hoping the voters like it too

cleverconveyence


quality posts: 1 Private Messages cleverconveyence
Mahjongman wrote:I wonder what it says about someone's character when almost everything they have to say is nasty, condescending, vitriolic, or judgmental (sometimes we are treated to a grand slam, of course.)


Like this? http://shirt.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=3637978

Number of shirt.woots in 08: 23 (not counting randoms and shirts bought for friends)
number of shirt.woots in 09: 2 (same criteria)

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
beaterbar wrote:I don't think I've ever bought one of this artist's shirts and I usually agree on the whole overuse of manga thing, but I also usually think that the shirts that the more artsy types here tend to champion are boring conceptually. This shirt is a rather clever take on naughty and nice, and while ramy could stand to use some more of his actual skills, it is a fun design. Without artists that make marketable shirts woot would be the 21st century equivalent of a cross-stitch convention with the connoisseurs sitting around and drooling over the intricacies of each other's cthulhu designs and seascapes.


I send you an internet cookie. Thank you for your extremely well worded post. This is one of the smartest things I've ever read on this site.

Mahjongman


quality posts: 18 Private Messages Mahjongman
cleverconveyence wrote:Like this?


I said ALMOST everything. Find any ten posts from him, look them over, and tell me with a straight face that you disagree.

jewelwing


quality posts: 13 Private Messages jewelwing
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


I love that this is a whack-a-mole shirt. Really really funny. I just wish it wasn't so bloody. If the moles were getting simply knocked out instead of being turned into bloody pulp it would be more wearable for me. Awesome idea tho. It think one of your best.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
jewelwing wrote:I love that this is a whack-a-mole shirt. Really really funny. I just wish it wasn't so bloody. If the moles were getting simply knocked out instead of being turned into bloody pulp it would be more wearable for me. Awesome idea tho. It think one of your best.


Perhaps I took the "horrifying cuteness" a step too far :P I knew it wouldn't be for everyone when I did it, but since this was the way I imagined it, I wanted to stick with my vision (though maybe not the best decision in hindsight). Thanks though, I'm glad you appreciate the concept at least

ep9683


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ep9683
AdderXYU wrote:just for starters

Try to find that many books for "learn to paint impressionism." Yknow, since so many people try to equate them as styles.

The anime/manga style is ludicrously popular, stunningly simple to teach, and infinitely marketable. Anyone pretending it's anything but are fooling themselves. It's not to say there can't be good stuff of this style out there, but is to say that it is a genre and style that is hugely profit-based, while other styles are more about characteristics and far more difficult to accurately turn into step-by-step instructions to direct aping.

*ETA: It should be obvious that "infinitely marketable" doesn't mean "good" or "worth marketing" in this case. See also Twilight and Milli Vanilli. Often times, wild popularity is inverse to actual worth.


The real tragedy of banning these shirts would be that you would have nowhere to exercise whatever complex you have that makes you feel you are better than the rest of woot.

Why don't you just go to a site that features more artistic shirts rather than being a popularity contest?

retropandy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages retropandy

I haven't seen the other version, but I like this one and its gore. Without the gore and spikes, the squirrel would just be playing a regular game of whack-a-mole. But he's suppose to be naughty. If he misses the moles, he can still gore them >:3

ccazabon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ccazabon
ramyb wrote:For the record, they actually did, although they claim that it had nothing to do with the film

That said, I don't think this should be an argument about capitalism anyway. Every artist has equal opportunity every week, and posts anything they want. Anyone can win in any given week, and voting trends often change drastically over time. I'm not going to feel pressured to change what I'm doing because someone wants to yell about it. Any person watching the derby can be a Monday morning quarterback and say what they knew would win for whatever reason, but in the moment, the only thing any artist can do is the shirts they like best, and the rest is just a matter of crossing our fingers and hoping the voters like it too


You have every right to continue designing however you want. People online will always complain, and more often than not I find the complaints on your designs to be stretched to fit the argument against you. I don't like all of your designs, but I certainly like this one and plan on buying it if it prints.

keep on doing what you enjoy, that's what matters.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
ep9683 wrote:The real tragedy of banning these shirts would be that you would have nowhere to exercise whatever complex you have that makes you feel you are better than the rest of woot.

Why don't you just go to a site that features more artistic shirts rather than being a popularity contest?


You honestly think this is the only site I frequent? I just comment waaay less elsewhere, because they don't need it as much. Woot needs it. That is why I'm here. For the same reason a good teacher doesn't ignore failing students and just focus on the excelling ones.

And really, if I thought having less to whine about was a true tragedy, why on earth would I be so persistent in trying to make that eventuality come around?

Junka


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Junka
AdderXYU wrote:just for starters

Try to find that many books for "learn to paint impressionism." Yknow, since so many people try to equate them as styles.

The anime/manga style is ludicrously popular, stunningly simple to teach, and infinitely marketable. Anyone pretending it's anything but are fooling themselves. It's not to say there can't be good stuff of this style out there, but is to say that it is a genre and style that is hugely profit-based, while other styles are more about characteristics and far more difficult to accurately turn into step-by-step instructions to direct aping.

*ETA: It should be obvious that "infinitely marketable" doesn't mean "good" or "worth marketing" in this case. See also Twilight and Milli Vanilli. Often times, wild popularity is inverse to actual worth.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, there are many tutorials for drawing this way in general--however--

the question was more specifically asking for said tutorials showing the 'photoshop effects' that mrwednesday posted about-- that are the supposed method behind the lighting effects and shiny on the art. Or I would like to know the name of such claimed effects. It seems extremely unlikely, seeing the lighting and shading in the art in question, but I am open to learning something new.

However, since he still hasn't provided specific examples of effect names or tutorials, it's seeming more likely that his claims are false.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Junka wrote:Thanks for the reply. Yes, there are many tutorials for drawing this way in general--however--

the question was more specifically asking for said tutorials showing the 'photoshop effects' that mrwednesday posted about-- that are the supposed method behind the lighting effects and shiny on the art. Or I would like to know the name of such claimed effects. It seems extremely unlikely, seeing the lighting and shading in the art in question, but I am open to learning something new.

However, since he still hasn't provided specific examples of effect names or tutorials, it's seeming more likely that his claims are false.


Whether these effects exist or not (which I can tell you now, they don't), is irrelevant, because I do all my shading manually anyway. As for "how to draw manga" guidebooks, I'm not sure what they have to do with this style of entry. I looked through, and all except one of the books is how to draw anime girls with big eyes. Nothing about that style approximates that of this entry, so it seems like a silly thing to bring up if you ask me.

Aside from that, thanks to everyone who has said kind words about the design

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


The whole reason for hating on these shirts is generally stupid, I think. In a nutshell it is thus: "I've been here for years (this particular fact the haters are extremely proud of, and they feel it grants them authority within the world of woot), and I'm sick of these types of shirts, so they should be banned/rejected/ some other way of ensuring they don't win".

The fact that they win due to getting the most votes is completely neglected, and is of course due to corruption and cheating. The fact that they tend to sell well too, matters not, as this is random and not dependant on votes.(As an interesting side note, the strongest evidence presented for accusations like these so far is that one artist created fake accounts on a different website to increase her rep, so it then follows that she and others must be cheating on here as well). This is what I don't get. Fine, it is not complex art, it is often unoriginal, and you're tired of it since you've been on shirt.woot since the days of yore. I just dont understand why you can't accept that a lot of people aren't tired of it (yet), so for an undefined period of time these shirts will continue to print. Come to peace with that, look for shirts you like elsewhere, and hope that once in a while a shirt you like in the derby prints. They don't just win cause the artist has hundreds of friends with woot accounts.

you act like you need to post on here to "change" woot, that when designs like this win, it is wrong, and that you have to make sure important values such as artistic integrity are preserved. (It is also highly interesting that the loudest proclaimers of this happen to not be artists that submit designs, if they are artists at all) You seem to think that the fact that this is a competition with money involved should be ignored, and art that pleases the voters should not be made if it is not to your liking. Doing this is capitalism at its worst, apparently.


The arguement that "real talent" isn't allowed to shine through is pointless in a format like this. This is not a site where curators decide what shirts to print based on artistic reasons, it is a site where the consumers are allowed to choose the shirts they want to buy 3 out of 7 days. This must be accounted for when submitting to a derby. You may have as much talent as anyone, but if it is deployed in a way that the general public does not like, then you will not shine through. It is fair competition. Either you try a different market (which may be a smart idea. Woot is what it is), or you continue to try and make new designs that people may want to buy. Artists that make designs in a style people like should not stop doing so, just for the sake of allowing others to print, and other types of shirts to print.

It has been compared to the likes of Twilight, and I feel that is a fair comparison. Although by some despised, it is still wildly sucessful. Apparently it should not be made because of this, and the fact that it brings in heaps of money. It is driven by capitalistic goals, and so is evil. Even though this undoubtedly is part of the reason for its making, Twilight also brings joy and other nice things to millions of people across the world. This is also the case for these chibi shirts. People buy them because they like them and enjoy wearing them, and enjoy showing them off to people they meet. While I see that some people see the capitalistic aspect of this to be evil, it is not. It is what makes society go around. In fact, every single serious artist on this site submits a dseign with the hope of winning. If it was purely for practice or to get advice, other places would be better used. I also feel it is safe to say that all the artist try to make designs the voters will like, and even if they do this to get votes which lead to cash, they are making art that pleases some individuals.

I am sure you haters see things completely differently, and may not even acknowledge anything I've said due to your overwhelming conviction that ramy/seki are minions of satan, but it doesnt really matter. it's wednesday, and im bored, hence i spent 30 minutes writing this. Also, please no "oh you think you're an objective knight in shining armor", from you Mr. Wednesday, this is simply what i have observed, and my opinions, so relax.

ep9683


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ep9683
AdderXYU wrote:You honestly think this is the only site I frequent? I just comment waaay less elsewhere, because they don't need it as much. Woot needs it. That is why I'm here. For the same reason a good teacher doesn't ignore failing students and just focus on the excelling ones.

And really, if I thought having less to whine about was a true tragedy, why on earth would I be so persistent in trying to make that eventuality come around?


My theory would be a messiah complex. A vicious cycle of needing the something to be broken so you can fix it, but you only pick things you know are unable to be fixed by you.

It's also possible I am just baiting you because it entertains me. The being needed and good teacher parts were golden.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
ep9683 wrote:My theory would be a messiah complex.


You beat me to it. Gracias, muchas, muchas gracias. I'm glad other people see the complex and it's not just us.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
banzaaiii wrote:snip


I'm always relaxed but you might not want to make, "If you don't like it, go elsewhere" the crux of the argument. If you don't like people pointing out the stylistic, thematic, etc. flaws on clearly flawed designs, go elsewhere. There have always been and will always be people at woot who are tired of garbage, and if you can't live with that this is not the site for you. Head over to another shirt site that moderates their forums more heavily.

There will always be people here who are going to criticize poor work. It seems there will always be people here like you who find that unacceptable. I've accepted that and for the most part I and others do our best to explain to you why we believe the things that we do. You guys, however, rarely ever do so and base your argument entirely on the fact that we shouldn't be criticizing at all.

That's not going to change anything. I'm going to criticize when I see something wrong and none of yours or anyone else's whining is going to stop that. Relax. Stay awhile. You'll find that if you guys don't go on your pointless tirades about what we say and how we say it, none of the flame threads would even happen. Take some responsibility for your portion. You don't have to respond to every critique that you see. You make the choice to start an argument so don't get your panties in a bunch when we finish it.

But like I said, if you don't like that...... you can always go elsewhere.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
ep9683 wrote:The real tragedy of banning these shirts would be that you would have nowhere to exercise whatever complex you have that makes you feel you are better than the rest of woot.

Why don't you just go to a site that features more artistic shirts rather than being a popularity contest?


Other shirt sites won't allow him to do what he does here. Adder needs Woot. It's his realm. No other shirt sites care about him. Only here does he have the full playground to stomp on. Woot has to publically ask him to shut his mouth. As someone with what a friend of mine calls "borderline personality disorder", he NEEDS the legendary status he has here on this corner of the web.

No other sites care. Going away quietly to the beautiful world of Threadless would be way too easy a solution for Adder. It's way more fun for him to cause a ruckus and slander people here :D.

And now to wait for the zingers....

BTW, this has my vote. It's not necessarily my bag, but eh...if we're going to vote for mindless blood, I'd rather have this than the actual heart of a human being torn out and hoisted to the sky. Rock on little hammer squirrel.

FLAME ON!

PS: I at least respect that Adder honestly seems to enjoy art in some kind of way. He has some 'code' he follows. That's more than I can say for Wednesday, who I really don't get why he's here...

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
bassanimation wrote:FLAME ON!


It's one thing to say he has a messiah complex, it's another thing entirely to try and make a psychological (psychiatric?) diagnosis (BPD) on the basis of forum posts. :P

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
bassanimation wrote:PS: I at least respect that Adder honestly seems to enjoy art in some kind of way. He has some 'code' he follows. That's more than I can say for Wednesday, who I really don't get why he's here...


I'm not sure what you don't get. I still buy shirts and I comment on all of the ones that I like. When I have criticism I say so as well. I'm certainly not naive enough to think that everyone is going to agree with me and the idea that you should only go to a place where everyone is on your side is ludicrous. There is no such community. People are free to state their opinions here good or bad. I'm comfortable with that. Maybe you could clarify?

IceyPyro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages IceyPyro
Re: Oops I missed, let me try again :D (v2)


While I really love this shirt.

I'm actually kind of surprised it didn't get rejected for the video game reference.

lwoodnj


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lwoodnj
bassanimation wrote: Babbled


Sigh, Bass, you're the new "worst" thing to happen to Woot in a long while. Please stop posting. It hurts me.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
bassanimation wrote:Other shirt sites won't allow him to do what he does here. Adder needs Woot. It's his realm. No other shirt sites care about him. Only here does he have the full playground to stomp on. Woot has to publically ask him to shut his mouth. As someone with what a friend of mine calls "borderline personality disorder", he NEEDS the legendary status he has here on this corner of the web.

No other sites care. Going away quietly to the beautiful world of Threadless would be way too easy a solution for Adder. It's way more fun for him to cause a ruckus and slander people here :D.

And now to wait for the zingers....

BTW, this has my vote. It's not necessarily my bag, but eh...if we're going to vote for mindless blood, I'd rather have this than the actual heart of a human being torn out and hoisted to the sky. Rock on little hammer squirrel.

FLAME ON!

PS: I at least respect that Adder honestly seems to enjoy art in some kind of way. He has some 'code' he follows. That's more than I can say for Wednesday, who I really don't get why he's here...


You know, for somebody who gets so offended by negativity and personal attacks you sure seem to enjoy insulting Adder alot. And everybody else who disagrees with you or Ramy/Seki for that matter.

Congrats you are one step closer to bitter mindless spite-voter.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

Wireless


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Wireless
mrwednesday wrote:I'm not sure what you don't get. I still buy shirts and I comment on all of the ones that I like. When I have criticism I say so as well. I'm certainly not naive enough to think that everyone is going to agree with me and the idea that you should only go to a place where everyone is on your side is ludicrous. There is no such community. People are free to state their opinions here good or bad. I'm comfortable with that. Maybe you could clarify?




Basically, you come off sounding like a bit of a whiney tool. You really should get off the keyboard and live life a bit. No offense.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
Wireless wrote:Basically, you come off sounding like a bit of a whiney tool. You really should get off the keyboard and live life a bit. No offense.


NO OFFENSE but you are a whiny tool with no life? What the hell is wrong with you people? The brainless masses who pop out of nowhere to defend Ramy/Seki by crudely insulting anyone who disagrees are far more destructive to this community than the art critics.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

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