Re: Behold a pale horse...

and his name that sat on him was death :O

(Saved)

Re: Behold a pale horse...

HAHAHAHAHA. Oh man. I really like this a lot. <3 This made my day. Thanks, Ramy.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

rotflmao ramyb this is great. It reminds me of something out of Good Omens (which is a wonderful book, by the way, go read it!). gmv

Draug wrote:rotflmao ramyb this is great. It reminds me of something out of Good Omens (which is a wonderful book, by the way, go read it!). gmv

Our Movie Genre I love that book! Terry Pratchett= <3

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Love it! totally has my vote ^_^

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Cute, but I'm having some trouble connecting this to the theme.
It seems like it'd have been far more at home in the "Naughty and Nice" derby.

Earlysong wrote:Our Movie Genre I love that book! Terry Pratchett= <3

Neil Gaiman = <3 <3

Let the flame war begin.

taninniver wrote:Cute, but I'm having some trouble connecting this to the theme.
It seems like it'd have been far more at home in the "Naughty and Nice" derby.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. This just seems like a Grim Reaper on a playground, with no thing making it stand out as "nightmarish". That aside, seems really kind of generic, unfortunately.

Draug wrote:Neil Gaiman = <3 <3

I'm pretty sure I near had an aneurysm when I heard about Good Omens - two of my favorite authors joining forces!
And then when I found out Yoshitaka Amano and Neil Gaiman's "Dream Hunters...." There are no words.

Draug wrote:Neil Gaiman = <3 <3

Terry Pratchett > Neil Gaiman.

:P

taninniver wrote:Cute, but I'm having some trouble connecting this to the theme.
It seems like it'd have been far more at home in the "Naughty and Nice" derby.

I think it's supposed to be death's nightmare-that he's stuck as a child on a playground with a fake horse.

Or maybe he's REMEMBERING his childhood.

ChaosDoctor07 wrote:Yeah, I'd have to agree. This just seems like a Grim Reaper on a playground, with no thing making it stand out as "nightmarish". That aside, seems really kind of generic, unfortunately.

How would you feel about having a nightmare like this? Grim reapers and death are commonly associated with nightmares, therefore this would be on topic.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I don't laugh out loud in my office very often. This shirt did the trick. You got my vote.

p.s. I think this shirt is on topic. There are going to be like 250 comments on this shirt. Should be good reading, people get so overwrought.

Earlysong wrote:Terry Pratchett > Neil Gaiman.

:P

Neil has the Endless on his side. Do you want to mess around with them? Meh-heh-heh...

Remember, Death loves us all!

wootasourous wrote:How would you feel about having a nightmare like this? Grim reapers and death are commonly associated with nightmares, therefore this would be on topic.

Just my honest opinion. If I had a dream about this, I'd likely wake up laughing and think it was cute.

wootasourous wrote:How would you feel about having a nightmare like this? Grim reapers and death are commonly associated with nightmares, therefore this would be on topic.

I'm not saying that this isn't on topic necessarily, but more or less, with my "generic" comment, talking about the shirt as a whole being a "make something cute that is normally frightening, add a background, and there we go", if that makes any sort of sense, despite my vague description of thoughts.

taninniver wrote:Just my honest opinion. If I had a dream about this, I'd likely wake up laughing and think it was cute.

Again, agreed. I certainly wouldn't be terribly frightened, or at least based on this image alone. That's not to say that the Grim Reaper, even as a child, wouldn't be frightening in some other situation, but here, it just seems, aside from being kind of static, just him on a playground, hanging out. Nothing, to me at least, terribly frightening about that.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

This just plain doesn't work for the theme. It's far too cute to be a nightmare.

*GASP* Maybe this is why all of Ramy's designs lately are so cute with vacant eyed bunnies and what not! Maybe Ramyb has been expressing his nightmares via Woot Derbies! Maybe he secretly hates cute and poorly executed artwork, and the only way to get these nightmares out of his head is to put them into digital form and submit them to contest sites!

Ican only hope this is the case, as the alternative is a nightmare in itself!

Re: Behold a pale horse...

The mane of the horse really bothers me. I wish you would of gone with me more standard Mohawk~ish look instead of the Elvis Hair / Turd hybrid that it is on the horses head a.t.m.

I would of even liked it better if you had gone with a more flame looking mane... even though I did make a slight jab about you entering a ponyta looking design (in the pre-derby discussion).

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I have to say, this time I agree with the assessment that this may be off topic. -scratches head- I like the design on it's own, but part of the derby's rules is to remain on theme. Lil' Death looks like he's enjoying himself too much for this to be nightmarish.

I think that Ramyb just made a pun with this shirt. See, the grim reaper only comes out at night. As he is a messenger of the night on a horse, this obviously refers to the night's mare. Clearly on topic.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I haven't liked a ramy shirt in quite some time, but this one is adorable. It will not get my vote, however, as I really don't see the theme at all.

rapidboldt wrote:I think that Ramyb just made a pun with this shirt. See, the grim reaper only comes out at night. As he is a messenger of the night on a horse, this obviously refers to the night's mare. Clearly on topic.

While your logic is "sound", my personal guess would be that this wasn't his intention...

Cute, but UGH.

Suggestion to ramyb -- maybe to make this on-topic put a child (or cute bunny/kitten or whatever) on another playground horse in front of the reaper, looking back over his shoulder in "terror"

ChaosDoctor07 wrote:Yeah, I'd have to agree. This just seems like a Grim Reaper on a playground, with no thing making it stand out as "nightmarish". That aside, seems really kind of generic, unfortunately.

I see nothing generic about this... I'm pretty sure I've never seen Death or something similar riding a playground horse before. I believe the theme is a little more literal, as in "Night's Mare" or maybe a child's nightmare of a hellish playground. It's cute, but not in a gag me way. It's very wearable! Got my vote and I'll be sure to buy if it makes print!

Fatstrat06 wrote:I see nothing generic about this... I'm pretty sure I've never seen Death or something similar riding a playground horse before. I believe the theme is a little more literal, as in "Night's Mare" or maybe a child's nightmare of a hellish playground. It's cute, but not in a gag me way. It's very wearable! Got my vote and I'll be sure to buy if it makes print!

Should start reading more comments before I submit one myself I suppose. There seems to be quite some contention as to how much this relates to the theme. The theme in this case; however, is rather broad and subjective. Nightmares can be anything for anyone. Just because it's not one of the stereotypical nightmares (i.e. falling, showing up to class naked, being chased without being able to run, your teeth falling out, etc.) doesn't mean it's not a potentially legitimate nightmare. I know someone who is afraid of tulips because they see faces in them, someone who is afraid of deer, people who are afraid of feet and hands, etc. and these are certainly not your typical nightmare or phobia. Just because something that could potentially be very frightening is presented in a cute-ish manner doesn't mean it ceases to be a nightmare.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Okay. I'll bite.

This is pretty much exactly like a recurring nightmare I had when I was 3-5. It'd have two parts, one at preschool (our ponies were red, yellow, and blue) and one at home. Both parts would look much like this - dark and charred with random molten burny bits on the ground, and a bigger lava pool/moat around my house. Grim reaper was full size and in my house though.

Your horse weirds me out. What's on his head?

fablefire wrote:Okay. I'll bite.

Your horse weirds me out. What's on his head?

I kind of agree. I like what's right behind the black dealio, what looks like sculpted white hair. The black thing looks like a snail shell or something. I'd prefer just the white to continue, like a carousel horse.

Fatstrat06 wrote:Should start reading more comments before I submit one myself I suppose. There seems to be quite some contention as to how much this relates to the theme. The theme in this case; however, is rather broad and subjective. Nightmares can be anything for anyone. Just because it's not one of the stereotypical nightmares (i.e. falling, showing up to class naked, being chased without being able to run, your teeth falling out, etc.) doesn't mean it's not a potentially legitimate nightmare. I know someone who is afraid of tulips because they see faces in them, someone who is afraid of deer, people who are afraid of feet and hands, etc. and these are certainly not your typical nightmare or phobia. Just because something that could potentially be very frightening is presented in a cute-ish manner doesn't mean it ceases to be a nightmare.

The point, for me at least, isn't that this isn't a "typical" nightmare; there's a bit of a slippery slope to be had with that "nightmares can be anything for anyone", since one could more or less argue just about anything could be considered a nightmare, depending on the person, but I'll try and avoid that discussion for now...I just think that, and this is totally based on my own opinion rather than any hard facts or anything, that there's more or less an informal limit as to what constitutes a visual depiction of a "nightmare" and what seems to be, as tanniver noted, an idea for a previous derby("Naughty or Nice) inserted into this derby instead. To use your example, in the case of the tulips...If you had a field of tulips drawn "normally", smiling or something like that with a person standing among them, that's not terribly nightmarish at all, to me. It's another matter if the tulips are "monstrous caricatures" of tulips and are preparing to eat the helpless victim; this sufficiently represents the fear that the tulips are causing the person.

Hope that long-winded paragraph sort of expresses my thoughts. For a visual example, compare "Your Friendly Neighborhood Baku", which features a potentially frightening spirit in cute-ish form(though the point of it is that it eats nightmares, but still, potentially frightening in its own right) and this.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

If this shirt had another figure in it, say, another kid and his reaction or something like that, I think this shirt would be significantly better, as opposed to just the Reaper on the horse.

fablefire wrote:Okay. I'll bite.

This is pretty much exactly like a recurring nightmare I had when I was 3-5. It'd have two parts, one at preschool (our ponies were red, yellow, and blue) and one at home. Both parts would look much like this - dark and charred with random molten burny bits on the ground, and a bigger lava pool/moat around my house. Grim reaper was full size and in my house though.

Your horse weirds me out. What's on his head?

You used to have nightmares of being death on a playground rocking on a horse? Nope.com

kylemittskus wrote:You used to have nightmares of being death on a playground rocking on a horse? Nope.com

The theme says to draw what you see in the nightmare, not what you are.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words to everyone who enjoyed the design, and also thanks for the wonderful debate that I've learned to cherish on my every thread.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

If only Death Jr. were pointing at a small child or something. I like it, just think it would have put the 'off theme' topic to bed if it were pointing at something.

mrwednesday wrote:The black thing is the mane though it looks more like a toupee. The white behind it is the ears which are pointed backwards.

So there's no chance that this is Death's nightmare?

mrwednesday wrote:The black thing is the mane though it looks more like a toupee. The white behind it is the ears which are pointed backwards.

Ah I see. Well, I like the design overall, as a stand-alone tee. As for topic, however, it will be up to Woot to decide if this should stay or go. :\

Earlysong wrote:So there's no chance that this is Death's nightmare?

According to Ramyb's own words, nope. Apparently having a child version of death on a playground horse is a nightmare. Really scary, huh? Sure as hell keeps me awake at night.

kylemittskus wrote:According to Ramyb's own words, nope. Apparently having a child version of death on a playground horse is a nightmare. Really scary, huh? Sure as hell keeps me awake at night.

Maybe Death is revisiting his childhood and rocking on the horse after killing all of the children?

Earlysong wrote:Maybe Death is revisiting his childhood and rocking on the horse after killing all of the children?

Maybe it's the playground's nightmare, buwahahahaha!

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I guess you could say that a vision of horrible things to come would be Nightmarish, but I think you probably should have saved this for the Apocalypse Derby....

bassanimation wrote:Maybe it's the playground's nightmare, buwahahahaha!

Earlysong wrote:Maybe Death is revisiting his childhood and rocking on the horse after killing all of the children?

There should not need to be this much discussion to create a tenuous link to the theme, especially by people who are not the designer.

I love the design, but I can't vote for it because I personally feel it's too far from the topic.

I agree with the people who'd like to see another entity on the shirt terrified of this mini-Reaper.

Sorry, Ramyb.

heartlessjezebel wrote:I love the design, but I can't vote for it because I personally feel it's too far from the topic.

I agree with the people who'd like to see another entity on the shirt terrified of this mini-Reaper.

Sorry, Ramyb.

Ah! Intelligence among the masses. Amazing.

mrwednesday wrote:There's a chance it is anything. The theme should be in the design not in the title or in some convoluted explanation. You should be able to see it.

As for adding in a child pointing, it is the same kind of shoehorn as a title or an explanation. If the kid isn't asleep it may as well be real and there is still no reason that he would be bothered by an adorably cute death on a playground horse. That's what I would call a happy dream not a nightmare.

Nightmares are scary right? Scary why? Because if they were real, you'd be scared. Well, if I turned a street corner and came across this scene with the ominous dark clouds, the fire pits, the dark playground, and a little child in death's uniform, I'd mess my pants.

Our Movie Genre
i want it

please give it to me

i want to wear it EVERYDAY

dsatele wrote:Nightmares are scary right? Scary why? Because if they were real, you'd be scared. Well, if I turned a street corner and came across this scene with the ominous dark clouds, the fire pits, the dark playground, and a little child in death's uniform, I'd mess my pants.

Not something you want to admit to on a public forum.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Seriously, I HAVE TO HAVE THIS SHIRT!!

http://shirt.woot.com/blog/viewentry.aspx?id=9362

kind of sort of similar. Right? Right?

dontcallmegary wrote:http://shirt.woot.com/blog/viewentry.aspx?id=9362

kind of sort of similar. Right? Right?

Meh. Not really. The only similarity is the Grim Reaper figure as a child, and that's about it; the "children" are not even drawn the same way.

dsatele wrote:Nightmares are scary right? Scary why? Because if they were real, you'd be scared. Well, if I turned a street corner and came across this scene with the ominous dark clouds, the fire pits, the dark playground, and a little child in death's uniform, I'd mess my pants.

But this derby isn't "things you'd be scared to stumble upon in real life". By that standard, most t-shirts on here, or any website for that matter, could be construed to be nightmares. Most t-shirts woot, Threadless and the like are rooted in some kind of fantasy, which in turn would be strange or scary if they were real.

genericsmith wrote:The mane of the horse really bothers me. I wish you would of gone with me more standard Mohawk~ish look instead of the Elvis Hair / Turd hybrid that it is on the horses head a.t.m.

I would of even liked it better if you had gone with a more flame looking mane... even though I did make a slight jab about you entering a ponyta looking design (in the pre-derby discussion).

Just my 2 cents.

looks like the horse is wearing a toupee.

So THAT'S how Death met Mr. Blinky.....Muhawah....

I agree, this would have fit much better in the naughty/nice derby.

Not really on-topic, but as is ramy's usual m.o., it's topic-tagential.

I don't see the point in arguing anymore. It's going to get printed unless woot decides to reject it.

I think if you really wanted to make a shirt for this Derby on this basis, you should have made Death riding an actual pale horse and made it look terrifying. That's why it's not really on-topic. It's not nightmarish. It's cute.

This isn't on topic, way to go yet again Ramyb... I like some of your shirts, but seriously, it's getting old, it really is.

Wow, that's the most ominous playground I've ever seen.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I don't know, maybe it is the horse's nightmare. Afterall, his pretty little happy playground world is falling apart all around him. Even his little flowers are dying.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I must say I really love the background on this design. It's well drawn in my personal opinion. I'm not much of a fan of the characters themselves though, especially the horse. And to be honest, the connection to the theme isn't very clear to me either.

Having said that, I would probably buy this shirt if it was just the background with maybe a man/woman sitting on the swings and the theme was like Memories or something.

I love how people try to manipulate that this is off theme. A nightmare to one person is individual. What I might dream about has nothing to do with the next person. What if a person has a phobia of spiders, they give them nightmares, so if somebody made a shirt with a bunch of spiders doing something creepy would that means it's off theme... ya know, because it's a spider and John Do over here isn't afraid of spiders and quite likes them and finds them cool?

How about clowns? Some kids love them and find them funny, others are scared of them. Because the one kid who likes them didn't have a nightmare about it, it would be off theme to have a creepy looking clown?

Think a little bit and use your imagination instead of looking to pick something apart because it's not your opinion. I personally wouldn't have a nightmare about this, doesn't mean the next person couldn't.

mikenytola wrote:I love how people try to manipulate that this is off theme. A nightmare to one person is individual. What I might dream about has nothing to do with the next person. What if a person has a phobia of spiders, they give them nightmares, so if somebody made a shirt with a bunch of spiders doing something creepy would that means it's off theme... ya know, because it's a spider and John Do over here isn't afraid of spiders and quite likes them and finds them cool?

How about clowns? Some kids love them and find them funny, others are scared of them. Because the one kid who likes them didn't have a nightmare about it, it would be off theme to have a creepy looking clown?

Think a little bit and use your imagination instead of looking to pick something apart because it's not your opinion. I personally wouldn't have a nightmare about this, doesn't mean the next person couldn't.

No offense, sir, but you might want to read the thread first to see that there are, to me at least, a lot of valid points being made against the shirt and see that your argument has already been stated previously. Now, to be fair, there is an unfortunate inherent problem with this derby in that, as you said, one man's whatever is another man's greatest fear, and so what constitutes a nightmare is a bit subjective.

For one, there's nothing inherently wrong with disputing opinion, so long as it has some sort of basis, personal(such as saying one shirt might look better on this color as opposed to another) or through evidence, behind said argument, so disagreed with you on that. And as far as whether this is on theme or not, check out my argument above in response to the previous person who gave your argument, as well as the other people who dispute this being on theme. I'm not necessarily saying it isn't on theme, though I'd side more with it not that it is; if nothing else, it's a bit of a stretch.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Also, as I mentioned earlier, this shirt isn't bad itself; it's just lacking a few things that would, for me at least, make it more "on-theme". As it stands, it just looks like, well, how it is: a Grim Reaper sitting on a horse with fires and a playground. One of the problems, to me at least, is that the image doesn't tell any sort of "story", so to speak. It's just there, no explanation whatsoever for why the Reaper is there. He just is. As such, it just makes this shirt seem like, as mentioned numerous times at this point, like a Naughty and Nice entry, which this would certainly fit. If there was some other person(s) in the picture, that were being haunted/whatever by the Reaper, at least, to me at least, it would make a bit more "sense" for this derby; though, even so, I'm doubtful that I would buy it, admittedly. Again, sorry for being so long-winded with my "points". Part of me is really just frustrated with ramyb, who certainly has talent and potential, but, some of these shirts week after week,month after month meh...It's starting to really get to me. Anyways, enough on that...

kylemittskus wrote:Ah! Intelligence among the masses. Amazing.

Wow, showing what a condescending *** you are. That really legitimizes everything you've said. Think before you post.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

bleh.

wrong thread, edit.

kbilicki wrote: I don't know, maybe it is the horse's nightmare. Afterall, his pretty little happy playground world is falling apart all around him. Even his little flowers are dying.

ChefRAZ wrote:

death doesn't care if things around him die, he's death. and ramyb can't draw things that aren't cute.

No, I said it is the horse's nightmare, not death's nightmare, especially since the horse is the one with the pompadour. I don't really like the hair either, but the horse probably does, that perfect little pouf that now represents what his world used to be. Bratty death came along and burned everything up. Freakin' nightmare.

Does the eye on the horse bother anyone else? I feel as though it was an afterthought and it doesn't quite "fit". It's placed too low and looks like it's sitting on top of the drawing because it's not shaded. Maybe it's just me.

Earlysong wrote:Terry Pratchett > Neil Gaiman.

:P

hey! die in a fire!

i would consider this shirt if only it were on black. navy fail.

kn1srut1 wrote:Wow, showing what a condescending *** you are. That really legitimizes everything you've said. Think before you post.

Read the thread and count how many "this isn't on theme but I would buy it anyway!" comments there are before you post. I meant the Ramyb masses, by the way. And let's face it, they're really not that intelligent. Or if they are, they just don't know how to read derby rules.

ChaosDoctor07 wrote:snip

Fair enough. Well said.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Some of you are saying this is off-topic because it's not scary/nightmare-ish. It might not be a nightmare to you now, being older, but think of when you were a kid. If you were a small child and you had a dream where the grim reaper caused destruction on your local playground, you'd be pretty freaked out and call it a nightmare.

GravityKitty wrote:Some of you are saying this is off-topic because it's not scary/nightmare-ish. It might not be a nightmare to you now, being older, but think of when you were a kid. If you were a small child and you had a dream where the grim reaper caused destruction on your local playground, you'd be pretty freaked out and call it a nightmare.

Perhaps, but there isn't really any indication that this is necessarily taking place in the "human world" in a nightmare...The problem with it is, there is just the Reaper. No humans to distinguish whether this is taking place on Earth or some otherworldly plane. This depiction could very well be just of the Reaper's world or whatever.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

A chibi reaper will never be scary.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Browsing through other peoples' opinions, I don't think adding an additional character is a wise choice. That would compromise the balance of the design and throw off its worth. What we have here, is the plain, bitter truth that it's a cool design that doesn't necessarily fit into the theme and has design-defying horse hair. Also, I think it'd be a stronger silhouette if you had tilted Death's head so it wasn't parallel to the line of the swings. Or make him just a smidgen bigger so it lessens the tension drawing to that area.

Though I'm liking the horizontal boundaries of the design, I think it's worthwhile to experiment placing the scythe at an angle. Having that foreground element break the horizontal line of the bottom can result in leading the eye straight back to the design. It could work, it could not.

I wish this could be printed separately from the derby and with some correction to the horse hair. I enjoy this design a lot. My gripes are that it's most likely going to get printed without the edits and then I won't ever get another opportunity to have a shirt design like this because this semi-perfect design already existed.

Guess I just have to sit out of this one. Le sigh.

ChaosDoctor07 wrote:Perhaps, but there isn't really any indication that this is necessarily taking place in the "human world" in a nightmare...The problem with it is, there is just the Reaper. No humans to distinguish whether this is taking place on Earth or some otherworldly plane. This depiction could very well be just of the Reaper's world or whatever.

Are you serious? Your argument is that nightmares must take place in the human world so there must be a human in the image for it to be considered a nightmare. Do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Here's a simple clue for you and all the other gumballs who are obviously just jealous of RAMYB's success. The title of the design is Behold A Pale Horse. So what does that mean, you ask? It means that it's a depiction from the bible, more specifically, the human bible.

So now that we know it actually does take place on earth, let's move on to a real argument. The book of revelation, from which the title comes, is a prophecy or vision of what is to come. I don't know about you but if I had a vision of the end of the world similar to what is written in the book of revelation, I would most definitely consider it a nightmare. And if I were told that it would actually come true, I would consider it even more nightmarish!

Many of you are saying that if there were a child in the picture it would be much more nightmarish but I don't agree at all. One thing about art that most of you either don't know, or are just deciding to forget, is that art isn't always just about what you see, it's about what you don't see. So in this design we have a playground with no children and what is in their place? Fire and Death! In other words, the kids are dead and gone. I don't know how many of you are parents but I would guess not very many because that is a parents worst nightmare.

I'm sorry for being rude but it seems that a lot of you are just trying to pull stupid excuses out of thin air because you're jealous of RAMYB's success. Just grow up and except the fact that people honestly like RAMYB's designs. This site may be about art but don't forget that it's also about business as well. If you think differently, you're just lying to yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be wasting you're time designing shirts.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

it so cute i just want to hug it.

NessaRose wrote:it so cute i just want to hug it.

There you go. Obviously connected to the theme: Nightmare.

Oh... wait a minute...

Izzyshiddizzle wrote:Are you serious? Your argument is that nightmares must take place in the human world so there must be a human in the image for it to be considered a nightmare. Do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Here's a simple clue for you and all the other gumballs who are obviously just jealous of RAMYB's success. The title of the design is Behold A Pale Horse. So what does that mean, you ask? It means that it's a depiction from the bible, more specifically, the human bible.

So now that we know it actually does take place on earth, let's move on to a real argument. The book of revelation, from which the title comes, is a prophecy or vision of what is to come. I don't know about you but if I had a vision of the end of the world similar to what is written in the book of revelation, I would most definitely consider it a nightmare. And if I were told that it would actually come true, I would consider it even more nightmarish!

Many of you are saying that if there were a child in the picture it would be much more nightmarish but I don't agree at all. One thing about art that most of you either don't know, or are just deciding to forget, is that art isn't always just about what you see, it's about what you don't see. So in this design we have a playground with no children and what is in their place? Fire and Death! In other words, the kids are dead and gone. I don't know how many of you are parents but I would guess not very many because that is a parents worst nightmare.

I'm sorry for being rude but it seems that a lot of you are just trying to pull stupid excuses out of thin air because you're jealous of RAMYB's success. Just grow up and except the fact that people honestly like RAMYB's designs. This site may be about art but don't forget that it's also about business as well. If you think differently, you're just lying to yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be wasting you're time designing shirts.

1) My point was not that nightmares must take place in the "human world" or whatever. My sole point was that there's nothing in the picture to indicate that this is actually a nightmare and not just an image of Death's "childhood" or whatever. I apologize if the point I'm trying to make is poorly worded/vague.

2) Please try and calm down. Thanks.

3) Again, I'm not saying this isn't necessarily on theme, but I think it's a bit of a stretch and more fitting for, again "Naughty or Nice" or an "End of the world' or something derby. As mrwednesday brought up, either on this thread or in the main derby thread, one should be able to, ideally, look at a shirt design and reasonably be able to guess the theme in a few guesses. I'm not so sure that someone would guess "Nightmare" when seeing this...But, then again, that's just me.

4) I can only speak for myself on this, though I would venture a guess that I speak for most of the people debating in this thread, is that I'm not in any way jealous of ramyb and am not trying to take away from his past success or anything, let alone pulling complaints out of thin air; as a whole, I think both sides have made valid points. I'm not trying to take any shots at him by arguing or whatnot about this piece; I certainly don't have any personal vendetta or whatnot against him. I'm just commenting on what I see from this design in relation to the derby itself. And as far as the art AND business part, I completely agree and I am certainly not forgetting it. I'm not usually a huge fan of ramyb's shirts, though he does have some designs I find cool(like his entry last week for the "Egypt" Derby.). Regardless, his shirts sell, so there's obviously a demand for his shirts.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Here's something to consider:

Merriam Webster's online dictionary's definition(s) of nightmare:
"1 : an evil spirit formerly thought to oppress people during sleep
2 : a frightening dream that usually awakens the sleeper
3 : something (as an experience, situation, or object) having the monstrous character of a nightmare or producing a feeling of anxiety or terror"

This, to me, seems to be the third definition of the word. From my understanding of the derby's description, it's the second definition that the Derby is looking for.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

to bring up the anatomy argument, what the hell is wrong with the horse's skull? it's forehead type thing is round. even playground horses have proper anatomy.

mrwednesday wrote:Not to belabor the point but this causes you feelings of anxiety or terror.....really?

Me? No, it doesn't. I'm referring to the image of "Revelation" that people are interpreting this as when people say that it's "nightmarish", rather than this specific image itself.

Look at some of the other top shirts, they show sleeping people and the things that are clearly their nightmares - other shirts that only depict monsters/objects don't make it clear that it's a nightmare, even if the title is defending it.

Shirts that show things that inspire terror (to people or intangible characters) are on topic. Death and post-apocalyptic settings inspire terror in most people. Who cares if the child-death is on a stupid playground horse, the setting is obviously scary enough for a nightmare...it's dark, there's a skull and little fires!

sarahann0123 wrote:Look at some of the other top shirts, they show sleeping people and the things that are clearly their nightmares - other shirts that only depict monsters/objects don't make it clear that it's a nightmare, even if the title is defending it.

Shirts that show things that inspire terror (to people or intangible characters) are on topic. Death and post-apocalyptic settings inspire terror in most people. Who cares if the child-death is on a stupid playground horse, the setting is obviously scary enough for a nightmare...it's dark, there's a skull and little fires!

Again, I think the difference is the difference between, above, the second and third definitions of "nightmare." I still think that it's the second one that makes a shirt fit this Derby.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Who knew Death could be so cute?

mrwednesday wrote:Not to belabor the point but this causes you feelings of anxiety or terror.....really?

Just a thought, but I believe this would cause a parent feelings of anxiety or terror.

mrwednesday wrote:I'll make this short. I already brought up revelation and the fact that it is a vision and not a nightmare because the two ideas are completely distinct thus proving you didn't read any of the comments.

I did read all the comments. Your argument doesn't hold up because throughout the entire bible, visions and dreams go hand in hand. I would consider a dream such as the one referenced as a bad one. And what do we sometimes call bad dreams? That's right, a nightmare.

mrwednesday wrote:As to your point, what you are arguing is that anything can be a nightmare meaning anything and everything is on theme. While that may be fine for you, it is obviously not for many many others including people who would usually support ramy but are getting fed up.

I never said anything can be a nightmare. I simply said that this design, in my opinion, definitely fits the theme then explained my reasoning for thinking so.

mrwednesday wrote:Third, what you see is a cute chibi death on a playground horse. What you can't see is the theme because it isn't there. Show anyone this image who has no idea of what the theme is and ask them to guess it, you will not find a single person who would say nightmare and that's the problem. I say again, the theme should be in the design not the title and not some convoluted description. If it's not apparent it's not on theme.

If this were true, then I would argue that almost all the designs in the fog right now are off topic. I would guess that the theme was monsters, fear, or something like that. Go take a look, there's a dragon, a clown, a monster getting shot with a dart gun. The ones that show somebody sleeping are definitely more obvious but, if you think about it, those even seem as if the sleeper is unaware of the monster in the room.

ramyb wrote:and his name that sat on him was death :O

(Saved)

Maybe i'm just colorblind, but is this shirt black or navy?

Congrats to ramyb for staying out of this debate. He's obviously proud of his design and his work, and rightly should be.

Fatstrat06 wrote:Maybe i'm just colorblind, but is this shirt black or navy?

Congrats to ramyb for staying out of this debate. He's obviously proud of his design and his work, and rightly should be.

Apparently, from one comment I read, it's on navy, though I had trouble distinguishing it myself.

Fatstrat06 wrote:Maybe i'm just colorblind, but is this shirt black or navy?

Congrats to ramyb for staying out of this debate. He's obviously proud of his design and his work, and rightly should be.

Also, not sure if I would congratulate him for staying out of the debate...I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on it. That being said, the design itself, as you implied, is still fairly good(not my taste, but still), putting aside the on/off topic debate.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Two things stick out the most for me with this image.

1) the handles completely blend in with Death's robes - please address this

2) the size of Death's head just seems really, really big

First off, I’m neither a Ramyb fan or hater.
So far, I see that the main thing that so irks you so direly about Ramyb is the apparent lack of connection to the theme. For me, burning playground with death reaper is scary and twisted. I won’t argue how nightmarish it is though, that’s already been done. However, heck, this derby, and every single derby, has been filled with submissions that apparently have nothing to do with the theme. A spectral dragon in the night? Did I not know, I’d say it’s cool rather than say it’s a nightmare. Or in past derbies. For Christmas, Boots Boots made an awesome Silent Knight shirt. Try getting someone to guess what the theme on that one is. Point being, if you really pursue an off theme argument, and say you hold nothing against Ramyb, then think again. You could target countless other submissions, but it is only this artist’s work that you really target. And you guys do it over and over again.
Is Ramyb’s cutesy cute design a cheap shot at winning some cash? Perhaps, I don’t know. Consistently Drakxx sends nightmarish designs for any derby. Be it circus or any other theme. If woot makes a “Cute” contest, I doubt so many people would complain that Drakxxx made a not so cute design. Now Ramyb’s style is cute things, and apparently people dig it. Most of Ramyb haters want him to stop making cuddly critters, to stop the blank yet sweet stares… So the idea is that you will ostracize one artist because you dislike his style? Or that he should do what you want instead of what he’s comfortable doing? I don’t know much about art, but go tell Van Gogh to draw squares, or Dali to paint flat fruit bowls. Or Botero to draw skinny people. You guys argue that it isn’t art. Well, it’s Ramyb’s style. He’s not hacking into the system to get more votes, or cheating in any way. He has delved into other styles that aren’t cute, and they’ve been pretty darn cool. He’s got talent, and he knows how to win. Anyone who knows how to win should keep trying. I’d do it, I bet so would you. Now try saying that you don’t criticize Ramyb without resenting his winning streak a little.
Again, I’m no particular fan of Ramyb. But you’re suffocating a skilled illustrator and what appears to be a nice guy (he has a tendency to put smiley faces and draw cute things, and is never spiteful in the face of an endless gang of haranguers). I applaud his ability to receive such negative feedback and still keep drawing. Go Ramyb! Keep on man!

Re: Behold a pale horse...

a playground is a place of happiness. one day, as a kid, you go to this place of happiness expecting joy and bliss, but as you turn the corner you see death himself sitting on your favorite white bouncy horse, having turned the playground into a dark abyss. i would have been pretty scared. had a little girl or something been drawn dreaming about this, it wouldve been obvious that this is on theme, but it would have been redundant and unnecessary, and made the design worse. at least thats what i see in this design, its intention may be completely different.

had this not been ramy's design, there would be so much less "debate", as is usual.

that said, the grim reaper needs to be scarier, and the horses mane is kind of wack

Ah, one last thing. One great thing about the derby is that they're open to indivdual interpretation. Say, puns on a downpour of meteors instead of rain shower for a rain theme derby. Or a pirate listening to music. If woot says "nightmare," it's open to the individuals interpretation. Being off topic is drawing a twilight fan shirt on a derby (which happened a while back). But take this design. And look at it. First you see cute death, haha. Cuteness is further emphasized by the playground. But then you realize what's further than that. No kids. No flowers. Sad puddles of fire. Dark atmosphere. Heck, the shirt is so lacking in real joy it's almost depressing. Only a cute death. But take it by itself, and, well, it's death. That is the material of nightmares. But you insist that its not real death, but cute death. So put it in context. It's a cute, almost toddler death. almost harmless. Yet it's alone in a playground, almost sadly rocking in a forlorn and dead world. Nobody but itself. Say it is so cute it's almost a kid. Well, it's sick and twisted. They've taken a child's world and turned it into the apocalypse. They've taken a child's play and turned it into a sad vibration of a lonely figure. They've transmuted a toddler into death. All that's good has been twisted into something evil. That's a nightmare. Perhaps not to everyone, but Ramyb saw it that way. Perhaps it's not dead on topic, but it's not a twilight fan shirt.

banzaaiii wrote:a playground is a place of happiness. one day, as a kid, you go to this place of happiness expecting joy and bliss, but as you turn the corner you see death himself sitting on your favorite white bouncy horse, having turned the playground into a dark abyss. i would have been pretty scared. had a little girl or something been drawn dreaming about this, it wouldve been obvious that this is on theme, but it would have been redundant and unnecessary, and made the design worse. at least thats what i see in this design, its intention may be completely different.

had this not been ramy's design, there would be so much less "debate", as is usual.

that said, the grim reaper needs to be scarier, and the horses mane is kind of wack

Yeah, this is kinda what I mean

JonGalt wrote:snip

lots of sensible stuff in this post

Re: Behold a pale horse...

Heh He He...
I knew jerky people with no life would make long rambling comments about this shirt. Blah, Blah Blah... let me make the same tired and cancellation comments on every shirt he submits.

...your funny!

pbutlerj wrote:Heh He He...
I knew jerky people with no life would make long rambling comments about this shirt. Blah, Blah Blah... let me make the same tired and cancellation comments on every shirt he submits.

...your funny!

In my case, I do have a life, but it's Winter Break, so here we are, as it were. The rambling's more just an unfortunate tendency I have. Though I don't think, as a whole, the comments are either "tired [nor] cancellation" from either "side" of the debate.

Also, "you're" funny. Again, unfortunate tendencies on my behalf. I'll shut up now, so as to avoid another wall of text.

This is why woot should allow negative votes.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

gah, why do we have to have cute nightmares?

Isn't that contrary to the whole theme of "nightmare" ?

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I could honestly see this going either way. If woot rejected this and said, "We don't think cutesy entries are in the spirit of the derby theme, as we envisioned it" I would accept that. If they kept it and their reasoning was, "we're open to a wider interpretation of nightmares that don't have to necessarily include images that would be frightening to an objective third party" then I would accept that, too.

Unfortunately, what will most likely happen is that woot won't reject it and they won't really explain why.

Boooooo.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I love it! It reminds me of an old book I've read called On a Pale Horse. I also think that the little skull in the background just adds something that makes it even better. Man, this makes me laugh! Its got my vote!

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I find this design to be completely creepy and scary . A little kid alone on a squeaky horse at night in a burning playground...(shiver!)It is very nightmarish ! I don't agree with those who don't agree that this is great.

SnowQueenVT wrote:I find this design to be completely creepy and scary . A little kid alone on a squeaky horse at night in a burning playground...(shiver!)It is very nightmarish ! I don't agree with those who don't agree that this is great.

Again, the difference between the second and the third definitions of "nightmare".

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I think the humor was more off the cuff than soul searching deep here. And in my book "cute" is freaking scary .. have you you ever seen Seky's dead Christmas cat? ( J.H.C. dipped in batter and deep fried! THAT was disturbing!) As for the child-like aspect of it, y'all should live with my kids (teenagers) for a month; you'll have nightmares for years - develop twitches, and likely suffer from PTSD for the rest of your lives.

IMO: WootKootsie + Real Kids = A Nightmare

The shirt makes me laugh, and these days I'll take it where I can get it, even if it's cute and makes the old, cynical wooters cry out for tar and feathers.

C'est la vie!

Re: Behold a pale horse...

The horses hair is the first thing I noticed...and it drives me crazy. I like the design, but the hair throws me off.

as for on topic-ness...i can see both ways too.

JonGalt wrote:Point being, if you really pursue an off theme argument, and say you hold nothing against Ramyb, then think again. You could target countless other submissions, but it is only this artist’s work that you really target. And you guys do it over and over again.

Lot's of artists go off topic. They're all called on it. Problem is, not all artists go off topic as consistently as Ramy does. Nor do they have an army of devoted fans who rabidly come to their defense with the sole argument of "You guys are just jealous of Ramy's success" and doing logical backflips trying to make his design fit the theme.

This shirt isn't as off-topic as he has been in the past, but it's still pushing it. Staying on theme does not mean including dark colors and a titular reference to a nightmare. The fact is, he could have done better and been more on theme with the same idea of Death on a pale horse but making it less cute. Because I'll concede that Ramy is a talented sketcher, but the real problem is that he wastes his talent on drawing OMGCUTE! images to appeal to the LCD instead of staying on the damn theme like all the other talented artists in this derby.

GMV! It is a visual representation of a recurring nightmare I had every year on Halloween night. Now as an adult, I realize how silly that dream was, but as a kid it was terrifying. Thanks!

palookaboy wrote:Lot's of artists go off topic. They're all called on it.

Many designs go by without anybody saying anything about it being off topic. Probably because the artist is more popular, but there are many that are off theme where people say nothing. Just as you say people come to Ramyb's defense it's the same when it's a more popular designer that is questioned. Often they are a lot more rude about defending the designer and try to belittle anybody that disagrees with them.

So you are incorrect, people come to bash Ramyb because of personal distaste and disdain a lot more than having actual validity. They just choose to disagree with anybody who opposes them.

Is this the best design? No, imo. Is it something I would ever buy or where? Absolutely not. Do I think it oozes the theme? No. But it is on theme, even if it may be borderline to some people, that still means it's on theme. It's not really worth arguing because woot has deemed it to be on theme and I highly highly doubt they are going to change that no matter what anybody says. It's all about perception and different people perceive things differently. So it's valid to express an opinion that it is off theme, but quite pointless to argue against somebody who says it is.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

If you guys looked up the title I think there is a reference to Behold a Pale Horse by William Cooper
http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Pale-Horse-William-Cooper/dp/0929385225

Perhaps its symbolism of people having nightmares about the government.

I actually think its quite scary, like a nightmare you have after playing silent hill.

palookaboy wrote:Lot's of artists go off topic. They're all called on it. Problem is, not all artists go off topic as consistently as Ramy does. Nor do they have an army of devoted fans who rabidly come to their defense with the sole argument of "You guys are just jealous of Ramy's success" and doing logical backflips trying to make his design fit the theme.

This shirt isn't as off-topic as he has been in the past, but it's still pushing it. Staying on theme does not mean including dark colors and a titular reference to a nightmare. The fact is, he could have done better and been more on theme with the same idea of Death on a pale horse but making it less cute. Because I'll concede that Ramy is a talented sketcher, but the real problem is that he wastes his talent on drawing OMGCUTE! images to appeal to the LCD instead of staying on the damn theme like all the other talented artists in this derby.

No, I’m not part of the “army of devoted fans who rabidly come[s] to” defend Ramyb. After watching Ramyb criticism over and over again for so long, and disagreeing with what was being said, I finally decided to intercede into this long lived feud. But, believe what you want…
I think you said some interesting things. So far, I thought Ramyb discussions were based on his tendency to draw only cuddly critters, and it struck me as funny to find the argument of “BY GOLLY! HE’S CLEARLY OFF TOPIC!!!” when in reality (and other people say this too) it could “go either way” and other artists tweak the rules in this respect. So when you say Ramyb has strayed off topic in the past, it slightly alters things, but not nearly enough to make me change my opinion.
Now, there’s one thing that troubles me with what you said. You start off saying that Ramyb is guilty of off theme crimes, and then slowly but surely transmute that argument into the fact that he draws cute animals. First off, proof read this. Looking closely it kinda undermines your point. You said “he could have done better and been more on theme WITH THE SAME IDEA OF DEATH ON A PALE HORSE but making it less cute.” Really, all you say is: “Make a gothic, bloody death, add fangs, a skeletal horse, and voila! ‘Tis death incarnate [can Death be incarnate?]!” Had you said, make a frightened toddler have a sleep bubble sprout from his head into the original image, You’d be more consistent. In that fashion, it would clearly reference mental images, and the grim scenario would point towards the image showing a nightmare. However, so many have used this bubble it seems to me unoriginal, and so many others have not used the bubble and nobody has complained so that it seems alright to stray a bit from the theme. So really, your argument is that Ramyb draws too cute. I dunno why so many people hate the tearful, bright, and adorable, but still,the argument lives on.
I really disliked this dainty phrase you wrote: “he wastes his talent on drawing OMGCUTE! Images.” So naughty nice theme was a waste? I mean, there all the other talented artists were obliged to make some form of cute imagery (even those who most woefully strayed from the theme still drew the cute element). Also, what criteria do you use to say he wastes his talent? It’s kinda harsh, I’d say. I mean, he does win cash, and he does have a fan base (and I still claim the fact that I am not amongst said fan base). That doesn't seem to point to a waste of time (though reading over my extensive and still growing argument, I'd say I'm the one wasting my time). I’ll concede one thing, to a degree I did say " ‘You guys are just jealous of Ramy's success’". But what I want is for you guys to realize it. That’s all. Just for you guys to simply fire off against Ramyb, I can’t stop you from doing that (though I can fire back), but really think about why you argue. If you conclude that you self-righteously detest Ramyb’s work, then by all means, tell me the reason. But what I have concluded is that—to a minor or greater extent—it all boils down to jealousy. I previously asked what it was you thought Ramyb should do, like “doing what you want instead of what he’s comfortable doing”. I could be mistaken, but it seems you are on this path. What is so wrong with cute? Why should Ramyb draw like all those other “talented artists”? If you dislike his work, skip it, ignore it. Just browse at all the other derby entries. Ahhh… but on Friday’s, you realize you might be unable to ignore it. It just might be a featured presentation on shirt.woot. If this happens, close the window immediately, and forget such a fearful man as Ramyb ever existed. But you don’t. You join the Mad Marauder Anti-Cute Parade, and once again ask Ramyb to quit his wasteful cutey pie drawing. Why? What’s so harmful of it? What irks you so direly, I still ask? My only conclusion: He wins the dough. You either don’t, or your fave shirt doesn’t get printed. Really, just post: Ramyb, I truthfully am fed up with cute designs, and it would be alright, except that they always hippety-hop to the fog. Start drawing sucky things or abandon these premises. DON’T, I said DON’T, win anymore. And no, I won’t say that I don’t envy you, I probably do, so if you consider this (and if I still don’t realize how selfish such a post would really be), please humor me and go away. Always hating, Ramyb Marauder 1986. Just say that. I can’t argue with that. That would be a solid argument, since I wouldn't dare try to force you into doing or thinking something unagreeable with your nature. But so far, you guys still complain every week and turn your other face and say that he’s a “talented sketcher,” yet think his designs should be rejectator material.

mikenytola wrote:It's not really worth arguing because woot has deemed it to be on theme and I highly highly doubt they are going to change that no matter what anybody says.

Sadly, this is the truth. Yet, life is usually about squabbling over the little things... It adds some meaning to the void. It spices things up the slightest bit... ;)

JonGalt wrote:snip

To begin, I didn't accuse you, or anyone in particular, of being part of Ramy's Army of Devoted Fans. I just said they exist.

What I meant to say, if it was unclear, was that Ramy is not drastically off theme here; but I feel he is a talented enough artist that he could have easily made something more on-theme if he had so chosen. Instead, he went for the "cheap pop" as Mick Foley used to call it.

The reason it's off theme is because the imagery doesn't evoke the sense of a nightmare. It evokes a sense of "Aww, look at cute little death!" Of course, this is in my humblest of opinion.

Ramy wastes his talent because, while he clearly has a good hand, he uses it to do the draw the same thing over and over again. If Bob Dylan had never gone electric, we wouldn't have BLONDE ON BLONDE, would we? Sure, the rest is good, but it's a waste of talent not to evolve or vary your craft. So when he has the opportunity to do something different, something more (ahem) nightmarish, does he take that opportunity? No. He goes cute. Again.

I wasn't transmuting my argument. They were two concurrent, related points about why I dislike the shirt. To sum up, "It's a little off theme because it's too cute, and Ramy is always doing things too cute."

Arguments against Ramy are wide, varied, and have been had to greater extent by those with greater strength of argument than I have, and I'll readily admit that. There are far greater and more serious allegations, valid or not I won't debate here, against Ramy. One thing I can assure you is that my distaste for Ramy's shirts are not out of jealousy. Sure, I wish I was raking in the big bucks in t-shirt derbies. I also wish I was paid as much money as Leonardo Dicaprio is to make a movie. But I really like Leo, because he's a great actor who plays a variety of roles and does them well each time. I really don't give a solid gold scaffolding about Ramy's success or lack thereof. What really bothers me is that the same shirts are in the fog all the time, and there's not much variety on a week to week basis. So, I'll say again, accusing your opponent of being jealous is a pretty weak sauce argument.

And to the points about it not being worth arguing over, or that if we don't like it we should just ignore it:

Did Woot enable comments on shirt designs simply to fawn over the artist? No. It's a forum for compliment AND criticism.

mrwednesday wrote:snip

An old debate teacher of mine used to say that when when an opponent says "It's not worth arguing over," it generally means they know they've lost the argument or they have nothing left to stand on and they don't want to be embarrassed. They want to devalue the debate itself for two reason: if you continue with it, you're wasting time, not making a valid point; and when they lose, who cares? It's not like its even worth arguing over.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I like this better than other shirts you made. I don't know if I would buy it for myself though.

mrwednesday wrote:Did you forget that certain people here think the comments exist solely their own use? Notice he said arguing back (which is true because it is a waste of time because he isn't going to following a logical argument) not just arguing? Kind of suspect when someone takes the time to argue with you then says it's not worth arguing.

I'm going to assume you are not being specific to me this time and this was directed towards JonGalt. But knowing you, you threw some jabs in there because, well... that's you. So if it was directed at me, then I really don't care because you won't act civil in a discussion nor comprehend what I write anyway so it's not worth it. But I do find it very funny that you accuse others of thinking the comments are soley for their own use. Have I introduced you to my friend the Kettle?

palookaboy wrote:An old debate teacher of mine used to say that when when an opponent says "It's not worth arguing over," it generally means they know they've lost the argument or they have nothing left to stand on and they don't want to be embarrassed. They want to devalue the debate itself for two reason: if you continue with it, you're wasting time, not making a valid point; and when they lose, who cares? It's not like its even worth arguing over.

I said it's not worth arguing over because woot has made their decision and it's staying and deemed on theme. That is not admit of defeat, nor is that saying it wasn't worth the discussion of difference in opinions, that is stating that the debate is already over by the decision maker. There is a big difference. Just as their is a big difference between criticism and rude insults. Some people lack the understanding of the two.

Check with your old debate teacher and ask him if you should keep on debating after the debate is over and everybody has left the room because a decision was made and concluded (woot is not rejecting it). Also, ask that teacher if you should bring in your own personal issues and feelings into a debate("ramby cheats the system and is not a 'real' designer" [not necessarily used in this thread]). Don't you also use facts to support your case in a debate, not just shoving your personal opinion upon the other? I'm not saying you are guilty of this, but there are some who are. This theme is a matter of perception, there is no black and white, yet some insist there is, and insist they are always right and never agree to disagree.

So yes, it's not worth debating over anymore, anybody who does is obviously standing on a soap box. Woot didn't reject it, the debate is over. As I said before, stating an opinion should be done, it should not be forced upon others and that is what some "elitist" around here try to do... with very little success I might add.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

this shirt forced me to sign in to my account, had to vote. good job boi!!!

Nightshooter wrote:this shirt forced me to sign in to my account, had to vote. good job boi!!!

Yeah, Me too.

Nightshooter wrote:this shirt forced me to sign in to my account, had to vote. good job boi!!!

Yeah, Me too.

mikenytola wrote:Snip.

First off, MrWednesday used Galt's name in his post. If you had actually read it you would have realized that, but instead you decided to perpetuate the argument without taking the time to see what you were arguing against.
Secondly, Why are you arguing the point that this isn't worth arguing about. If it really isn't, just stop writing. I think that would get your point across much more effectively.

abraschler wrote:First off, MrWednesday used Galt's name in his post. If you had actually read it you would have realized that, but instead you decided to perpetuate the argument without taking the time to see what you were arguing against.

For the record, W's post was split into two parts, with only the second part specifically speaking to Galt (and the first one seemingly responding to mike, based on what was said). People (on both sides) just love to jump all over each other and claw away on these forums without actually thinking about what anyone else is saying. It's really quite interesting to me.

That said, I'd just like to enter this lively debate, against my better judgment, to say that this is a nightmare that I've had, and based on the comments, I'm not the only one. In fact, many have mentioned that it is the recurring kind of nightmare, so it doesn't even fall under the "scared of tulips" kind of argument, because it seems to be something that is (relatively) universally understood. I chose to take a twist on the topic, because it was more fun to me that way, but it is still death and it is still, in my opinion, rather scary to see a playground burnt to a crisp with a skull in the background and death playing on it. I spent a pretty damn long time on the execution of this design and rather enjoyed its creation, and I hope people can stop and look at the details and not just dismiss it as a cute design. I think there are also a couple of other interpretations of the design that I read and found to be fun as well, so I'm glad people are finding their own meaning in it. And for the record, I'd say that seeing the fulfillment of an apocalyptic prophesy is most definitely the subject of nightmares. I generally try to stay out of these debates nowadays because it brings me nothing but frustration, but I'm proud of this design and want to stand behind it.

Thanks to everyone who has commented both positively and constructively on the design- I'm glad to hear that people enjoyed it and really appreciate your continued support! :D

abraschler wrote:First off, MrWednesday used Galt's name in his post. If you had actually read it you would have realized that, but instead you decided to perpetuate the argument without taking the time to see what you were arguing against.
Secondly, Why are you arguing the point that this isn't worth arguing about. If it really isn't, just stop writing. I think that would get your point across much more effectively.

Actually... his second paragraph was directed towards Galt, not the entire post. Maybe you are the one who should go back and read it again instead. *edit, didn't read Ramyb's post where he pointed this out already.

Also, I'm not arguing in my last post, I'm having a discussion and making a statement, there is a difference. Where in my last post did you see me saying that it is on theme and that it's not off theme and/or arguing that fact?

Perhaps you are the one who decided to perpetuate the argument without taking the time to see what you were arguing against. Next time take your own advice and just stop writing. ;)

k thx

I find it a little disturbing, actually, that people don't think "Death takes over the playground" is a nightmare. Would it be more effective if Death were portrayed as a grownup? For me it would, but if that's your complaint, don't buy the shirt / don't vote for the shirt. But you can't call this off-topic.

Ramyb: I actually couldn't tell that the skull in the background was a skull until you said so. Perhaps a full-face view instead of a profile view would be more effective. Unfortunately, too late to change it for this derby (OTOH, it is currently in the fog), but for future reference and what it's worth.

sasham62 wrote:Ramyb: I actually couldn't tell that the skull in the background was a skull until you said so. Perhaps a full-face view instead of a profile view would be more effective. Unfortunately, too late to change it for this derby (OTOH, it is currently in the fog), but for future reference and what it's worth.

I actually originally had the ground littered with skulls and bones, but ultimately decided I wanted something more subtle and took them out. Perhaps I should have posted a close-up to show the details, because it's not that visible in the comp. Thanks for the critique though, making things more clear in my designs is definitely something to work on.

ramyb wrote:snip

Eh I think the "hate" is justified on some of your work, but this isn't one of them, it kind of detracts from the haters' credibility for future futile argumentation.

ramyb wrote:I actually originally had the ground littered with skulls and bones, but ultimately decided I wanted something more subtle and took them out. Perhaps I should have posted a close-up to show the details, because it's not that visible in the comp. Thanks for the critique though, making things more clear in my designs is definitely something to work on.

Ohi! This is still my favorite out of this derby. For me I was like, "Aww, look at Death, so cute!" and then I saw the background and I was like, "Oh...not so cute..." See, this is what happens when parents let their children walk home from school by themselves.

My only comment is that I wish the horse's hair was going up between the ears instead of staying on one side, which is what it appears to be doing.

Good luck to you!!! Lol I guess you couldn't go too long without having a reaper on the charts :P

sasham62 wrote:I find it a little disturbing, actually, that people don't think "Death takes over the playground" is a nightmare. Would it be more effective if Death were portrayed as a grownup? For me it would, but if that's your complaint, don't buy the shirt / don't vote for the shirt. But you can't call this off-topic.

It's all about execution. A chibi Death riding a cute playground pony is about as scary or creepy as a meadow of daisies. There's nothing but cute here. Death doesn't have an eery, creepy grin, nor is there anything unsettling about the pony he's riding.

What, exactly, am I supposed to be afraid of?

This idea could easily turn creepy to me. Make death have a sadistic grin. Make the pony scarier by chopping his head off, or to add a pinch of cute make the pony afraid of Death. It could be the pony's nightmare then.

albinoapple wrote:It's all about execution. A chibi Death riding a cute playground pony is about as scary or creepy as a meadow of daisies. [snip]

This idea could easily turn creepy to me. Make death have a sadistic grin. Make the pony scarier by chopping his head off, or to add a pinch of cute make the pony afraid of Death. It could be the pony's nightmare then.

A meadow of daisies would be plenty creepy if it were growing out of your eyeballs. (Fortunately, we're a bit close to the end of the derby for anyone to steal that idea. Also, not something I would wear on a shirt.)
Similarly, death riding a cute playground pony is plenty creepy when you think about who's supposed to be riding it. A scary pony doesn't belong on the playground.

sasham62 wrote:Similarly, death riding a cute playground pony is plenty creepy when you think about who's supposed to be riding it. A scary pony doesn't belong on the playground.

Who is supposed to be riding it? My impression is that this isn't a human's playground, but rather a child Reaper playing in a playground in the underworld.

It's funny how over half the fogged entries aren't nightmares, yet this one gets ragged on the most. I count 3 actual nightmare shirts in the fog. The rest wouldn't wake a 4 year old.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I'm definitely pulling for this shirt, and I've no doubt that this is the pony's nightmare, thus making it completely on topic. The proof in in the pony's eyes, which are the classic ramyb shocked eyes that ramy haters are usually really aware of. Not sure why they're giving them the go-around this time...

albinoapple wrote:It's all about execution. A chibi Death riding a cute playground pony is about as scary or creepy as a meadow of daisies. There's nothing but cute here. Death doesn't have an eery, creepy grin, nor is there anything unsettling about the pony he's riding.

What, exactly, am I supposed to be afraid of?

What if you are scared of chibi? I know it scares me to think people are REALLY into chibi! haha Cute is cool when done properly, but man, make something cute into chibi and it ruins it for me.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

ROFL! And not about the design. Agenda for the day: 1-check Woot and Shirt.Woot; 2-Check Derby for fog/new designs/comments - maybe offer up one myself; 3-find threads on ramyb and/or seki designs for amusement factor. I'm sorry - I don't mean to offend anyone who takes these things so very seriously, but so much angst is pointless. Woot wants to sell shirts. Check out the "What is Shirt.Woot" if you don't recall that.
Ramyb designs are cute. Seki designs are generic. And they sell. LOTs. One of my personal fave designers is Drakxxx (got Valkyrie on right now), but his darker stuff doesn't sell as well. I kind of consider the three as relative equals, in terms of artistic ability. The difference lies in style, imagination and (probably) intent. Honestly, every week there are derby submissions that are just dismal - horrendous line drawings and inept cartoons... I hate that 'it's a clever idea and I can toss off a quick sketch to illustrate it' style. But I try to remember that, while I really, really appreciate the artistic caliber of many of Woot's contributors and am very disappointed when a favorite doesn't print, it's still about popular opinion. Art is a bonus. We just have to live with the fact that some styles don't suit us, that silly tourist-shop pun Tees sell better than more artistic stuff, and that the really awesome art doesn't always get printed. (And yet the artists keep submitting, which I REALLY appreciate!)
I know I'm not going to stop all the debates with this post - y'all do what you do. Remember, though - you could be stuck wearing nothing but Balloon Boy and Haiku tees...

paigeg wrote:Woot wants to sell shirts. Check out the "What is Shirt.Woot" if you don't recall that.

Before reading any of the postings my initial reaction was "wow that's little death's nightmare, when he realizes that his life will never be normal because he doesn't get to go to playgrounds to play, he goes to take lives." Maybe this is or isn't what Ramy intended to depict, but every design is always going to be up to the interpretation of the masses. I noticed the skull once I looked at the details, but was surprised that only 2-3 people mentioned that at all. I believe that it helps tie it to the topic. Yes sure if you showed someone the shirt and asked whats the topic? they wouldn't come close. But would they on the other shirts? I haven't read all the threads on them, but I get the feeling they aren't as extensive, as many are implying this is Ramy's MO. Maybe that's true, maybe he is tangential a lot of the time, I don't know.
But it all links with what paigeg said. This is ALL about woot selling product. And they aren't going to take down submissions that are getting tons of votes, because they are hoping that everyone that votes buys the shirt. Yea it would be great to get such a broad variety through the derbys and for other talented people to get a chance to sell their shirts as well. But its not in woot's best interest to sell something that the masses aren't saying they want. Frankly, I think all the designers here should just be happy with the opportunity to submit our artwork and get it out there. Woot doesnt have to have derbys at all. This is a great place for constructive criticism and learning new things. And if the same people win over and over again, regardless of if you like their design aesthetic or you think their off topic, then obviously there are those out there that do like their work. If it bothers you so much to see something win that you feel is off topic and unfair, welcome to the real world where stuff isn't always fair. Don't participate if you cant stand it.

starrynite211 wrote: This is a great place for constructive criticism and learning new things.

Q-P! And thanks - that's exactly why I really do read the community posts (not just to smirk at the snarks). The constructive advice at the early stages of a derby is interesting, and I even have some of my own upon occasion. I'm not much of an artist, but I enjoy it, and participating in the process vicariously. Oh, yeah - and wearing the shirts!

paigeg wrote: Woot wants to sell shirts. Check out the "What is Shirt.Woot" if you don't recall that.

"The difference is, these aren’t somebody else’s leftovers. Woot tees feature exclusive, original designs that you can’t get anywhere else (hence the terms “exclusive” and “original”)."

"If you mean “shirts produced and sold by Woot featuring a wide variety of design styles and subject matter”, then yes, in that sense, you might call these “Woot shirts.”"

It seems as though, from the shirt woot FAQ, that woot is about more than simply selling shirts. EVERY BUSINESS WANTS TO SELL THINGS. But not every business is willing to sell junk. Woot's FAQ has plenty of places where it insists they want quality, diverse, original pieces. It is only woot's practice, and woot's ignorant voters, which lead one to the false belief that "a shirt is just a shirt" and "popularity means its good".

Not to mention dailies. If woot was only about selling shirts, you'd think they'd pick more surefire sellouts for them, wouldn't you? A daily in and of itself proves every argument of this nature wrong. Editor's choices especially. Because woot's derby editors choice pieces show a site that doesn't care so much about what will sell as what is good most of the time. And yet, they almost always lead to at least one piece which outsells the popular pieces. AND POPULARITY MEANS ITS GOOD LOLOLOLOMG.

There is no evidence that woot would not be much happier to be printing three good, decent selling shirts per derby than three horrible, huge sellers. They're too set in their ways to admit their print method is flawed, and flawed majorly. Any respectable member of this site will give you a list of ways the derby can and should be improved. But woot wants it to be better without doing anything. their lack of action is all about being stubborn, not evidence that they like where the derby is going. they just don't like the idea of having to be fair and put effort in to running a fair contest.

starrynite211 wrote:And if the same people win over and over again, regardless of if you like their design aesthetic or you think their off topic, then obviously there are those out there that do like their work. If it bothers you so much to see something win that you feel is off topic and unfair, welcome to the real world where stuff isn't always fair. Don't participate if you cant stand it.

He hasn't learned that life lesson yet and probably won't for a long time due to his ignorance. He likes to stay places where he can complain and be miserable everyday. Hey, a kid's gotta vent his life's stresses somewhere I guess.

mrwednesday wrote:People clearly die during the day so I'd say he works all hours. The "pun" is grasping at straws anyways, not to mention the reference is "before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him." Revelation was a prophecy. A vision of things to come and an apocalyptic one at that, not a nightmare so there isn't a tie in there either.

i'd consider THE APOCALYPSE quite the nightmarish scenario, wouldn't you?

@halcyonnn - very true. the button next to each shirt says "I'D BUY THIS," not "THIS IS PRETTY" or "PERFECTLY ON-THEME" or "MADE ME THINK" or anything. it simply asks whether or not you'd buy the shirt. clearly, a lot of people want to buy a shirt with chibi death on a chibi playground horse.

Re: Behold a pale horse...

I voted for this shirt. I like it. I bought it. I can't wait to wear it. Thanks ramyb.

megahertz67 wrote:I voted for this shirt. I like it. I bought it. I can't wait to wear it. Thanks ramyb.

I did not vote for the shirt (or any others, I've been bad about that lately) but I bought one shortly after midnight. Very good design in my opinion and I like the irony of death stopping off on a scorched playground to go for a quick ride on the pony before commencing forth with more destruction.

Trying to get a good design thrown out on a poorly constructed technicality seems rather cancellation to me, but to each their own. I don't get caught up on the voting more/less the comments of voters, I am just looking for a good product to show up on shirt.woot and vote with my wallet. I don't think I'm the only one based on how many complaints this generated by a vocal minority while still selling out by noon.

Nice work on the art, can't wait to proudly wear mine!

AdderXYU wrote:"The difference is, these aren’t somebody else’s leftovers. Woot tees feature exclusive, original designs that you can’t get anywhere else (hence the terms “exclusive” and “original”)."

Like a moth to the flame...

Death, taxes and AdderXYU bashing ramyb and wetting his pants while rambling on about true art.