Derby #165: The Scientific Method
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Lab Rat

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ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Lab Rat


saved

Assassin15


quality posts: 161 Private Messages Assassin15
ramyb wrote:saved


Yup looks excellent.

PULL UP YOUR SKIRT, WE'RE ON A MISSION/
WE NEED A HERO, NOT A POLITICIAN - "Panhammer" by Phinehas

endangeredomega


quality posts: 37 Private Messages endangeredomega
Re: Lab Rat



I think the element that throws me off most here is the people in the cage. They seem to be drawn in a different style than the rest of the design, and feel a bit tacked-on?

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
endangeredomega wrote:I think the element that throws me off most here is the people in the cage. They seem to be drawn in a different style than the rest of the design, and feel a bit tacked-on?


I actually debated for a while about how to draw the people, since the entire point of the shirt for me is the role reversal and I wanted to make sure they were visible. I thought that by using a very simple style on the people and putting them in all white, they would stand out despite their small size.

Spiritgreen


quality posts: 197 Private Messages Spiritgreen
ramyb wrote:I actually debated for a while about how to draw the people, since the entire point of the shirt for me is the role reversal and I wanted to make sure they were visible. I thought that by using a very simple style on the people and putting them in all white, they would stand out despite their small size.


Yep, it makes good visual sense this way.

Very nicely designed, Ramy. And I've always liked the idea of lab rats getting their own back.

joshuajmasters


quality posts: 0 Private Messages joshuajmasters
Re: Lab Rat


Nice work. I like the design of the people... your explanation makes sense to me.

spookynutz


quality posts: 0 Private Messages spookynutz
Re: Lab Rat


It'll never happen, but I wish Woot! would change their policy so that voting on a shirt means that you automatically get billed for any shirts you vote on that prints.

I've liked two or three of ramyb/sekioyawhatever's shirts (own one), but the rest tend to be sub-par artwork without a lot of thought to the concept. Just my opinion. I've also watched controversy abound as mediocre shirt after mediocre shirt of theirs gets upvoted into the fog over some truly good-looking, well-thought-out designs.

The same happens with other artists as well, which is why I haven't purchased a shirt from this site in a long time: too much favoritism, not enough originality. If people were committing to pay for a shirt they voted on, we'd see a lot less favoritism, I'm sure.

tgentry


quality posts: 109 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

Re: Lab Rat


Role reversal shirts are forever the bane of my existence (what if staplers stapled us?!? what if food ate us?!? what if cars drove us... ad nausea) but this has a positive stance of sort going for it if you're against animal testing/cruelty.

ronzalone


quality posts: 4 Private Messages ronzalone
Re: Lab Rat


Not a bad design, but the people look kinda odd the way they're drawn. Not the fact that they're white, but the different style they seem to be drawn in sort of conflicts with the rest of the style of the shirt.
I'm also not sure what the glow is on the rat's left arm/side of it's face. Is it supposed to be from that tiny puddle in the cage?
One other thing: For the beaker (with the blue liquid) you can see through to the background (the half-tone, and in one case the rat's hand), but for the flask (with the green liquid) and the test tubes, you can't. Shouldn't you see the background/rat's hand through both?

profbrendan


quality posts: 7 Private Messages profbrendan
tgentry wrote:Role reversal shirts are forever the bane of my existence (what if staplers stapled us?!? what if food ate us?!? what if cars drove us... ad nausea) but this has a positive stance of sort going for it if you're against animal testing/cruelty.


Dude, what IF staplers stapled us?
D:

sacrerouge


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sacrerouge
profbrendan wrote:Dude, what IF staplers stapled us?
D:


I don't know about you, but staples will staple you. If your finger is in the wrong place, you will be stapled

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
spookynutz wrote:It'll never happen, but I wish Woot! would change their policy so that voting on a shirt means that you automatically get billed for any shirts you vote on that prints.

I've liked two or three of ramyb/sekioyawhatever's shirts (own one), but the rest tend to be sub-par artwork without a lot of thought to the concept. Just my opinion. I've also watched controversy abound as mediocre shirt after mediocre shirt of theirs gets upvoted into the fog over some truly good-looking, well-thought-out designs.

The same happens with other artists as well, which is why I haven't purchased a shirt from this site in a long time: too much favoritism, not enough originality. If people were committing to pay for a shirt they voted on, we'd see a lot less favoritism, I'm sure.


This is the only remotely supportive thing you'll ever see on a Ramy shirt from me: this idea is purely ignorant.

1) This will lead to fewer votes overall. People do not like their money to go into limbo. There have been shirt sites that prove this. If I give you my money, I expect product from it. And of course, there's the question of whether woot would take $10 tentative bucks from the user's account for every tee voted for. We would get far lower vote counts, and it would be totally unrepresentative.

2) This will disenfranchise poorer users. If I vote for three shirts I want, and all three win, I have to spend $30 in a weekend. As it is now, I can vote for all three and, if my favorite wins, I can choose later to buy the others or not. This should be in my ability.

3) Fanbois would still vote, bar none. Any unfair advantage anyone has due to rabid or ignorantly obsessed fans would still exist. It would only make it HARDER for marginally popular but better work to succeed. We'd see far more status quo, because people would be less likely to vote for their 3rd favorite shirt. If 1000 people like a shirt as their first favorite, but 2000 like a shirt as their 5th favorite, that shirt will win in the current derby. That is how the rare good designs win. People won't vote for their 5th favorite if they need to lock $10 into the vote

4) There are other reasons this is horrible idea: someone might use a maxed-out credit card as their primary card and then get hit with a winning print... someone might want to switch payment methods for some reason and have forgotten to do so a week in advance... some huge financial issue might come up (hospital visit? car wreck) which puts someone in a position where they shouldn't buy ANY shirts in a weekend, despite their earlier intentions... a shirt might be found to be stolen upon printing, and a user might say "well damn, I shouldn't have voted, I'm not going to buy!" ... someone might vote for a non-wooting friend, and said friend might, upon the win, say "nah, I actually hate that"...

Simply put, it is less fair to REQUIRE a sale from someone on a tee that might not win. The only overall fair way to stop the status quo and disgusting, pathetic work from winning is to weaken the power of votes. so long as votes can be cast by people who don't know what they're doing, we need a system that says "screw that, we're printing what's good." there should be no limit on why someone votes. there should just be a check in place at the end that says "hmm, between the comments and votes and overall quality, I don't think this deserves it." I'm fairly confident that would solve a lot more problems than making voting, in effect, a class based decision.

The VAST majority of woot derby winners outsell their votes. We all know that sales are not representative of quality (which in and of itself should be proof not to require a sale with a vote), but even if they were, almost all woot shirts are proven to be "higher quality" by sales than by votes. So requiring sales really won't change anything... if 800 people vote on a shirt, and 1000 sell, there's no real way to be sure any one of those 800 didn't buy it. Reform must come with a wholly different vote method.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
tgentry wrote:Role reversal shirts are forever the bane of my existence (what if staplers stapled us?!? what if food ate us?!? what if cars drove us... ad nausea) but this has a positive stance of sort going for it if you're against animal testing/cruelty.


I would say he's probably just saying "screw you, people, with your human ethics. I am a deformed rat, and I will own you."

profbrendan


quality posts: 7 Private Messages profbrendan
sacrerouge wrote:I don't know about you, but staples will staple you. If your finger is in the wrong place, you will be stapled

Ooh, point.
You win THIS round.

jstjred


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jstjred
spookynutz wrote:It'll never happen, but I wish Woot! would change their policy so that voting on a shirt means that you automatically get billed for any shirts you vote on that prints.

I've liked two or three of ramyb/sekioyawhatever's shirts (own one), but the rest tend to be sub-par artwork without a lot of thought to the concept. Just my opinion. I've also watched controversy abound as mediocre shirt after mediocre shirt of theirs gets upvoted into the fog over some truly good-looking, well-thought-out designs.

The same happens with other artists as well, which is why I haven't purchased a shirt from this site in a long time: too much favoritism, not enough originality. If people were committing to pay for a shirt they voted on, we'd see a lot less favoritism, I'm sure.


The vote isn't for what you'd buy. It is for what you'd want.

Or more specifically, anything that "catches your fancy" as the rules for voting states.

Plenty of things catch my fancy that I wouldn't buy. Incidentally I also learned that even when something is very interesting and I thought I would buy it...when it came to actually clicking on "I want one!" I couldn't go through with it. (As is the case with Rain Rain Go Away...that I still want, but cannot commit to buy.)

That said...if the artist is what catches ones fancy...that is more than just a little sad. Equally as sad as not voting simply because you don't like the artist.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
sacrerouge wrote:I don't know about you, but staples will staple you. If your finger is in the wrong place, you will be stapled


My brother accidentally stapled his shoe to his foot with a construction staplegun a long time ago. The Drs at the ER used vicegrips to pull it out.

jstjred


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jstjred
AdderXYU wrote:Reform must come with a wholly different vote method.


Honestly curious what you think about this Adder...

Do you think a weighted vote based on number of actual woots is a valid voting method?

Problems I would see from this are obviously the disenfranchising of newer people (like myself) because our vote is only a fraction of the votes for people actually willing to buy everything that woot prints.

Or weighted averages based on derby wins, vs. what you voted with a nice little "did this person actually buy this shirt" factor in for good measure.

To be clear, I'm not the biggest fan of how hard edged you are on lots of things...but at least I appreciate it a little because I don't always know every copyright violation out there, and I couldn't really tell someone what parody was vs. reference, or plagiarism. Sure you always take it too far, but I'm always guilty of that with things I'm passionate about myself, so I can not like it...but can't fault you on it.

So you are passionate about it, what is the fix? Because your suggestion seems to already be in place with a rejectionator. (You don't agree with the rejectionator about everything obviously...so the inherent flaw is manifested.) Should there be a board of wootstaffers made up of loyal wootees comprising of wootartists and wootbuyers with at least half a dozen whatthepoopisawoots for good measure? Checks 'n balances?

sacrerouge


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sacrerouge
Josephus wrote:My brother accidentally stapled his shoe to his foot with a construction staplegun a long time ago. The Drs at the ER used vicegrips to pull it out.


Augh! Reading this makes me foot hurt...

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
jstjred wrote:Honestly curious what you think about this Adder...

Do you think a weighted vote based on number of actual woots is a valid voting method?

Problems I would see from this are obviously the disenfranchising of newer people (like myself) because our vote is only a fraction of the votes for people actually willing to buy everything that woot prints.

Or weighted averages based on derby wins, vs. what you voted with a nice little "did this person actually buy this shirt" factor in for good measure.

To be clear, I'm not the biggest fan of how hard edged you are on lots of things...but at least I appreciate it a little because I don't always know every copyright violation out there, and I couldn't really tell someone what parody was vs. reference, or plagiarism. Sure you always take it too far, but I'm always guilty of that with things I'm passionate about myself, so I can not like it...but can't fault you on it.

So you are passionate about it, what is the fix? Because your suggestion seems to already be in place with a rejectionator. (You don't agree with the rejectionator about everything obviously...so the inherent flaw is manifested.) Should there be a board of wootstaffers made up of loyal wootees comprising of wootartists and wootbuyers with at least half a dozen whatthepoopisawoots for good measure? Checks 'n balances?


My ideal view still stands at: 1st is 1st, 2nd is a woot select from the fog, 3rd is a woot select that could be from anywhere in the derby, fog or otherwise. To me it is not perfect (first place often sucks out loud), but it is a mix that means votes count for something while also allowing deserving work to have a far higher shot of printing.

Weighted accounts, however, simply wouldn't work. Power would beget more power. If you have lots of money, your vote would count more. If you often vote for winners, your vote would simply get stronger and stronger, and we'd see far less diversity as the status-quo voters gained more and more power and perpetuated it.

Woot choice, of course, isn't ideal. They regularly pick awful HMs during derbies. Other sites where there is editorial content have shown flaws in their choices (threadless, for example, has gotten dangerously close to one-note over the last year). However, they also show the benefits of this perspective. PRIOR to threadless' current falling from grace, they were a model for creative designs winning, and winning big money, because they didn't just print the popular, but they took votes into consideration, took comments into consideration, and took their own personal vision into consideration. Woot's Editor's Choice decisions, while again never perfect, (and even most of their daily choices) show a site whose overall vision is MUCH different than their derbies pan out. Basically, it can only improve.

The rejectionator rejects based off rules. Sometimes. Sometimes it ignores rules. But it can't really justifiably reject based off taste. If something fits all rules, but is still absolutely terrible, it can still print. And can still print over much much better work. That requires editorial content far beyond the rejectionator.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
Re: Lab Rat


I am, once again, shocked at the rapidity with which this shirt fogged...

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

odysseyroc


quality posts: 32 Private Messages odysseyroc
kylemittskus wrote:I am, once again, shocked at the rapidity with which this shirt fogged...


Just wait till you get to the "acceptance" stage.





jstjred


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jstjred
AdderXYU wrote:My ideal view still stands at: 1st is 1st, 2nd is a woot select from the fog, 3rd is a woot select that could be from anywhere in the derby, fog or otherwise.


This actually sounds pretty good...and we would just trust that the woot choices are based off of comments and what-not.

I could believe this...but it's not like I've been here long enough to be attached to the other way of doing things.

I do agree with the woot choices being dangerous though...because I do see a lot of pretty awful shirts during the week...even though a lot of decent designs on the derbies never get printed. Sad.

I appreciate the response.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
jstjred wrote:This actually sounds pretty good...and we would just trust that the woot choices are based off of comments and what-not.

I could believe this...but it's not like I've been here long enough to be attached to the other way of doing things.

I do agree with the woot choices being dangerous though...because I do see a lot of pretty awful shirts during the week...even though a lot of decent designs on the derbies never get printed. Sad.

I appreciate the response.


The thing of it is that dailies can often be bad, but the important thing is they're also diverse. this week may not be the best example of it, but last week we had something weird, something cute and jokey, and something artistic. None sold amazingly, but they were all different shirts, and that alone is comforting.

Basically there are cons to every idea. I just think there are far less to mine, and far more to woot's, as compared with similar sites.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
odysseyroc wrote:Just wait till you get to the "acceptance" stage.


My "shocked" was sarcastic. I should have put it in italics.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

SeedUvPain


quality posts: 10 Private Messages SeedUvPain
endangeredomega wrote:I think the element that throws me off most here is the people in the cage. They seem to be drawn in a different style than the rest of the design, and feel a bit tacked-on?


It's almost as if two people worked on it...but that's not possible here, is it?

sTyLeS


quality posts: 9 Private Messages sTyLeS
SeedUvPain wrote:It's almost as if two people worked on it...but that's not possible here, is it?


Well, actually, two people work on shirts all the time here. They're called collabs.

kc6201


quality posts: 3 Private Messages kc6201
Re: Lab Rat


Why does ramyb always put "saved" in his first comment? What's that supposed to mean?

sTyLeS


quality posts: 9 Private Messages sTyLeS
kc6201 wrote:Why does ramyb always put "saved" in his first comment? What's that supposed to mean?


Others do it too.
They'll go back later and edit that post with real content but just didn't have the time at the moment, since they want their post to be the first one in their thread.

KaylaJ


quality posts: 22 Private Messages KaylaJ
Re: Lab Rat


is the rat supposed to have facial and chest hair?

indihar


quality posts: 7 Private Messages indihar
Re: Lab Rat


This needs to be posted at wine.woot!

zekecatz


quality posts: 193 Private Messages zekecatz
Josephus wrote:My brother accidentally stapled his shoe to his foot with a construction staplegun a long time ago. The Drs at the ER used vicegrips to pull it out.


I hope your brother is okay. Just a regular staple in the thumb hurt so much.

alfbo


quality posts: 12 Private Messages alfbo
Re: Lab Rat


At least it's on topic.

Imposter Pete was Unprepared for the Almost Human Nightmare Cuckoo Clock. The Walrus and Eggmen were the Height of Envy at the Monkey Bar. See the DJ spinning records on a Flora Phonograph while simultaneously playing Rock, Paper, Scissorhold.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
zekecatz wrote:I hope your brother is okay. Just a regular staple in the thumb hurt so much.


It was an air powered stapler, and he dropped it. He caught it just as it fell to his foot, and the guard triggered it to release a staple. It was easily 30 years ago- the doctors cut his shoe up, but that was the only long term damage.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
My ideal view still stands at: 1st is 1st, 2nd is a woot select from the fog, 3rd is a woot select that could be from anywhere in the derby, fog or otherwise.


Up until the last round of Editor's Choice, I thought this idea had a lot of merit. Since that one came through, I'm less likely to agree: Woot seemed to go in favor of what would sell better rather than diversity. That, or they really love "kawaii"

macedu


quality posts: 1 Private Messages macedu
alfbo wrote:At least it's on topic.



And it's actually one of the very few that are on topic so far. Most are just Science based shirts, but the topic is the Scientific Method which is infinitely harder to base a shirt on.

Just looking at the current Fog there are 2 equation shirts, 2 of beakers/flasks, 1 picture of Darwin, and one of a donut...lol I actually like the shirts but it's obviously hard to stay strictly on topic this time.

Aerith329


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Aerith329
Re: Lab Rat


I am imperessed with the Pipetman and the fact that it is actually being used correctly (something that wasn't achieved in Avatar). Most people think that beakers and Erlenmeyer flasks basically sum up all of science.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
macedu wrote:And it's actually one of the very few that are on topic so far. Most are just Science based shirts, but the topic is the Scientific Method which is infinitely harder to base a shirt on.

Just looking at the current Fog there are 2 equation shirts, 2 of beakers/flasks, 1 picture of Darwin, and one of a donut...lol I actually like the shirts but it's obviously hard to stay strictly on topic this time.


Using equations to solve a problem is an example of the scientific method. The Darwin shirt is kind of a "funny" shirt because Darwin's method was observation. In the shirt, he took the birds with him. The two chemical/beaker designs are off topic, though.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

be10der2me


quality posts: 0 Private Messages be10der2me
spookynutz wrote:It'll never happen, but I wish Woot! would change their policy so that voting on a shirt means that you automatically get billed for any shirts you vote on that prints.

I've liked two or three of ramyb/sekioyawhatever's shirts (own one), but the rest tend to be sub-par artwork without a lot of thought to the concept. Just my opinion. I've also watched controversy abound as mediocre shirt after mediocre shirt of theirs gets upvoted into the fog over some truly good-looking, well-thought-out designs.

The same happens with other artists as well, which is why I haven't purchased a shirt from this site in a long time: too much favoritism, not enough originality. If people were committing to pay for a shirt they voted on, we'd see a lot less favoritism, I'm sure.


The point I tried to make before Spook!
I like this one, especially the humans in the cage! Fantastic job on this!

Cantatus


quality posts: 6 Private Messages Cantatus
Regarding the shirt, shouldn't the green light on the mouse be blue? The only thing I can figure out the light is coming from is the beaker filled with blue to his left.

spookynutz wrote:It'll never happen, but I wish Woot! would change their policy so that voting on a shirt means that you automatically get billed for any shirts you vote on that prints.


The problem with this is it would have the potential to be very discouraging to new designers who might not normally get votes. Personally, if there is a design I like, but not necessarily enough to wear or buy, I'll still throw it a vote. I want the designer to come back and continue to submit things, because they will get better as time goes on.

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
Cantatus wrote:
The problem with this is it would have the potential to be very discouraging to new designers who might not normally get votes. Personally, if there is a design I like, but not necessarily enough to wear or buy, I'll still throw it a vote. I want the designer to come back and continue to submit things, because they will get better as time goes on.


Precisely. There have been many designs that I wouldn't want to wear, but that I think deserved a print because they were great designs. If anything, tying purchases to votes would hamper the ability of many quality designs to get votes.

Trying to shoehorn voters with convoluted voting regulations won't improve the quality of Derby prints. As long as it's a straightforward public vote, the lowest common denominator will, more often than not, rise to the top (winners like today's Drakxxx print notwithstanding). The best way to improve derby prints is to have more editor's picks, either by Adder's suggestion, or at least with more EC's. Woot has occasionally had EC's after the usual four that print post-Double Take. I wish they'd do that more often. Far more often.

bpr2


quality posts: 175 Private Messages bpr2

*sighs* stop ruining the derbys.

that was fun while it lasted!

ichimunki


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ichimunki
Darquis wrote:Up until the last round of Editor's Choice, I thought this idea had a lot of merit. Since that one came through, I'm less likely to agree: Woot seemed to go in favor of what would sell better rather than diversity. That, or they really love "kawaii"


Good for them. Woot is a business. Selling more shirts makes them more money, which means they will keep on selling these shirts! If they sell fewer shirts they have to either raise prices, pay artists less, or cut some other corners to keep shirt.woot alive.

My guess is that Woot has done the math on the data they have and concluded that shirts that get a lot of votes tend to sell well. Based on what they sell on non-derby days, I wish they would print only derby designs and only those that get top votes.

As far as this design: it's one of the best in the Derby.

djfrozone


quality posts: 0 Private Messages djfrozone
ichimunki wrote:Good for them. Woot is a business. Selling more shirts makes them more money, which means they will keep on selling these shirts! If they sell fewer shirts they have to either raise prices, pay artists less, or cut some other corners to keep shirt.woot alive.

My guess is that Woot has done the math on the data they have and concluded that shirts that get a lot of votes tend to sell well. Based on what they sell on non-derby days, I wish they would print only derby designs and only those that get top votes.

As far as this design: it's one of the best in the Derby.

I AGREE with this post and the last part. Who cares who the artist is?? IF he makes a desgin the users of woot want then who cares? i went through the whole derby and this is one of two shirts. I'd want and buy. thats the point. I think the anti-ramy movement is stronger than the lets just have fun movement. the last two weeks have been nothing but ramy bashing. this design is on point and flows with the theme and well executed.

This talk of changing the voting system for what??? so maybe that other shirt you like would get printed?? Is it really ramy's fault his designs sell here? (to the alleged vote gouging...paaahhaha.) If you dont like his shirt. you still have two more choices. So fall back. and enjoy the artists creations.

jxchen


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jxchen
Re: Lab Rat


If I could make a suggestion, you might work on your animals' basic head shape. I noticed in your squirrel one from the last derby you tend to make the back of the head very tall. If you adjust that a little I think it would make them look more appealing. As they are, it makes them appear 'egg headed'. Overall this is a clever image.

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
djfrozone wrote:I think the anti-ramy movement is stronger than the lets just have fun movement.


What the hell? Ignoring the inanity of the rest of the post, I just want to know what this even means.

And if you think the Anti-Ramy movement has been around for only two weeks, you have no idea. It's been around for much longer, and he's done everything he can to merit it.

palookaboy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy
djfrozone wrote:I AGREE with this post and the last part. Who cares who the artist is?? IF he makes a desgin the users of woot want then who cares? i went through the whole derby and this is one of two shirts. I'd want and buy. thats the point. I think the anti-ramy movement is stronger than the lets just have fun movement. the last two weeks have been nothing but ramy bashing. this design is on point and flows with the theme and well executed.

This talk of changing the voting system for what??? so maybe that other shirt you like would get printed?? Is it really ramy's fault his designs sell here? (to the alleged vote gouging...paaahhaha.) If you dont like his shirt. you still have two more choices. So fall back. and enjoy the artists creations.


By golly, you're right! Why criticize what you find awful?? I mean, if Hollywood churns out crap movie after crap movie, then just don't go see them! Saying that you demand better as a consumer is stuuuuuuuupid! OBVIOUSLY someone likes it, so what's the point is saying that YOU don't? GAWL if your opinion doesn't agree with ours, you should just keep it to yourself!

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
ichimunki wrote:Good for them. Woot is a business. Selling more shirts makes them more money, which means they will keep on selling these shirts!


Shirt.Woot is a shirt site. If they wanted to, they could sell "Team Edward" and "Team Jacob" shirts all day, and they'd make a killing. I doubt you'd like that. It's not just about sales. Quality should factor as well. McDonald's and Burger King are not the two best restaurants in the US.


As far as this design: it's one of the best in the Derby.

Eh... well, to each their own. The best I can say is that it's not Ramyb's worst.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
ichimunki wrote:Good for them. Woot is a business. Selling more shirts makes them more money, which means they will keep on selling these shirts! If they sell fewer shirts they have to either raise prices, pay artists less, or cut some other corners to keep shirt.woot alive.

My guess is that Woot has done the math on the data they have and concluded that shirts that get a lot of votes tend to sell well. Based on what they sell on non-derby days, I wish they would print only derby designs and only those that get top votes.

As far as this design: it's one of the best in the Derby.


A few various things.

Votes don't equal sales. CMDixon's Nightlife outsold the shirt which placed above it in their Derby by more than 3 times (and 1700 sales is not shabby). Adder has done the math on how other double take derby prints sell in comparison to things (do you still have that thread somewhere, Adder?)

Woot is in no danger, unless something has drastically changed, of not selling enough shirts if they don't just print kawaii or whatever the "in thing" is. Over time they've increased, not decreased, artist payout (to the point where 3rd and 1st get the same money..time for a pay increase?) and pricing has remained static. That means that they're in no danger, and they certainly didn't have to go all kawaii to get to the last time they increased artist money. So no, just being greedy (not that they are, but that's the easiest description) is not necessary for woot to flourish.

Plus, if they do become the kawaii/reference shirt seller, there will be customers who leave or become infrequent, at best, purchasers. Without variety woot loses both customers and interest - if I am a person who doesn't want a shirt with animals with big eyes doing inappropriate things or another HHG/Dr. Who/Monty Python shirt, I might stay over at Tilteed or GoodJoe or somewhere else. Woot doesn't want that, woot wants me here.

Also, there is absolutely no guarantee that a derby winner/placer will do well (Bad Directions undersold it's vote) or that a daily will do badly (It Came Out of Nowhere, This is How I Roll).

Wizzr


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Wizzr
Re: Lab Rat


I think whats missing, and would make this a lot stronger, is the mouse interacting with the people. It feels like "here's mouse doing chemistry, oh by the way here are some people in a cage." It needs the connection for the juxtaposition to be more clear.

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
ramyb wrote:saved

You always do this "saved"..why don't you write something? Explain your design or thought process...or just don't even bother..just my .02

itschool


quality posts: 0 Private Messages itschool
macedu wrote:And it's actually one of the very few that are on topic so far. Most are just Science based shirts, but the topic is the Scientific Method which is infinitely harder to base a shirt on.

Just looking at the current Fog there are 2 equation shirts, 2 of beakers/flasks, 1 picture of Darwin, and one of a donut...lol I actually like the shirts but it's obviously hard to stay strictly on topic this time.


As a high school biology teacher I completely agree. Since we recently covered the scientific method I was so excited with this weeks theme that I told my students about shirt.woot and suggested they check it out. On Monday we will talk about the theme and this entry would be my first choice.
Hopefully shirt.woot will have some new fans/
customers. Good luck ramyb

itschool


quality posts: 0 Private Messages itschool
itschool wrote:As a high school biology teacher I completely agree. Since we recently covered the scientific method I was so excited with this weeks theme that I told my students about shirt.woot and suggested they check it out. On Monday we will talk about the theme and this entry would be my first choice.
Hopefully shirt.woot will have some new fans/
customers. Good luck ramyb


I forgot the most important thing. HE SHOULD BE WEARING SAFETY GOGGLES !!! I still love the design.

littleclyde


quality posts: 10 Private Messages littleclyde
Re: Lab Rat


Though the style is totally different, the composition is eerily similar to this

rjohnson313


quality posts: 8 Private Messages rjohnson313
littleclyde wrote:Though the style is totally different, the composition is eerily similar to this


Wow... Guess this shouldn't be a shocker. But it's still so disheartening, and given the history I'd be naive to give ramy the benefit of the doubt here. Thanks for finding this...

jeanerz13


quality posts: 9 Private Messages jeanerz13
sacrerouge wrote:I don't know about you, but staples will staple you. If your finger is in the wrong place, you will be stapled


Yeah...I stapled my fingers together once...didn't really hurt until I tried to pull the staple out...

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
littleclyde wrote:Though the style is totally different, the composition is eerily similar to this


On this one, I don't know that you can really fault Ramy - the idea of role reversals where humans aren't in charge and something else is have existed for ages. I'm sure that Pinky and the Brain did something like this over a decade ago, and they wouldn't have been the first either.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
snarkygal wrote:You always do this "saved"..why don't you write something? Explain your design or thought process...or just don't even bother..just my .02


It's so he has first comment reserved. I couldn't speak to why the comment still would say saved now.

littleclyde


quality posts: 10 Private Messages littleclyde
Darquis wrote:On this one, I don't know that you can really fault Ramy - the idea of role reversals where humans aren't in charge and something else is have existed for ages. I'm sure that Pinky and the Brain did something like this over a decade ago, and they wouldn't have been the first either.


Oh, I'm the first to admit that the concept could be entirely coincidental since, yeah, role reversal is nothing new. But I'm a little disturbed by the similarity in the composition, the horizontal table line, the exact same perspective and elements, the cage position, the mouse outfit, etc. I usually don't like saying a design reminds me of another one, but in this case was like "huh, I've voted on something exactly like this before", and when I found KDLIG's design in my voting history I was kind of taken aback by just how similar they were. Make of it what you will, just thought I'd point it out.

grahamcrackercoyote


quality posts: 25 Private Messages grahamcrackercoyote
rjohnson313 wrote:Wow... Guess this shouldn't be a shocker. But it's still so disheartening, and given the history I'd be naive to give ramy the benefit of the doubt here. Thanks for finding this...


I'm a late Baby Boomer, so I've been around for a while - this isn't a new idea - it wasn't a new idea when the artists did it over at Threadless - if you think RamyB directly copied this design, say so! I have made this point before: very little of what is done in the fine arts is totally original. Plagarism depends on deliberately or inadvertently copying anothers work. The Threadless artists thought they were being original - if what they wrote is sincere - but it's not original, but I doubt they copied their design. I don't know if RamyB plagarized this - if he did, someone needs to take real action instead of whining about it. I'm not an artist - just a crazy science teacher that likes cool t-shirts to wear at school. I get tired of the ad hominem attacks - if you've got evidence of malfeasance, PLEASE do something about it! Get the WOOT gods to do something about it! This derby is about the scientific method - that method demands that you back up what you say with evidence. I wish I could find all the times I've seen this done with rats running humans through a maze or rats doing things to humans in the lab - most of it probably isn't recorded for easy access on the internet.

rjohnson313


quality posts: 8 Private Messages rjohnson313
grahamcrackercoyote wrote:I'm a late Baby Boomer, so I've been around for a while - this isn't a new idea - it wasn't a new idea when the artists did it over at Threadless - if you think RamyB directly copied this design, say so! I don't know if RamyB plagarized this - if he did, someone needs to take real action instead of whining about it. I'm not an artist - just a crazy science teacher that likes cool t-shirts to wear at school. I get tired of the ad hominem attacks - if you've got evidence of malfeasance, PLEASE do something about it! Get the WOOT gods to do something about it!


If this were any other artist, I would totally see where you're coming from. It's just with this particular artist, this happens just about every single derby he enters. So it's much harder to brush it off as coincidence... And I agree, something needs to be done about it. I've been lurking here for quite a while, but finally felt compelled to say something, to "whine," because I see so many others pointing this out time and again with no results... Adding my voice to the chorus is my attempt to make the "woot gods," as you say, pay attention. What "real action" do you suggest I take, beyond using my voice and using the tattle button?

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
littleclyde wrote:Though the style is totally different, the composition is eerily similar to this


When I came up with the idea, I did a very extensive search to see if there were any similar shirts out there and found none. Finding shirts that were submitted but never printed, and three years ago no less, at another site is unfortunately very difficult to track down. That design came long before my time either on woot or threadless, so it's just an unfortunate case of two designers coming up with similar ideas. I work in a lab and use a setup extremely similar to this one, and mice are the animal I study, so this was a very natural design for me to come up with. In general though, woot's stance has been that they reject if similar shirts exist, not similar ideas. If this is going to get into an argument about how any idea that has been thought of by anyone else before should be off limits, I hope that people are planning to research every archive on every site to ensure that all the shirts they are voting for are entirely one of a kind. I hate to be so cynical about the topic, but after weeks of having my face bashed in for doing designs that other people have come up with in some form in the past, I've done quite a bit of searching and can assure you that I can find about 90% of the derby winners on woot in some form done by some other artist. I remember when the ceiling chthulu was in the derby, a extremely similar image was found somewhere else, but the arguments went entirely the other way, with people freaking out that since it wasn't printed on a shirt, it shouldn't matter. It isn't a matter of coincidence, it's a matter of the sheer volume of artwork that has been done and posted in the 10+ years that people have been keeping online portfolios. Woot is looking for designs that haven't been printed somewhere else first, and I'd like to think I provided that with this entry, whether someone came up with the idea at some other point or not. In other cases, where a design has been printed elsewhere and I hadn't seen it before, I will gladly concede that woot should go for a rejection, but that isn't the case here.

tgentry


quality posts: 109 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

ramyb wrote:Woot is looking for designs that haven't been printed somewhere else first


Agreed, the reason they reject is that similar shirts exist so it's a non-issue.

marzipanapple


quality posts: 7 Private Messages marzipanapple
tgentry wrote:Agreed, the reason they reject is that similar shirts exist so it's a non-issue.


A second 'Agreed'.

I don't like either design, but if we are to agree with Woot's rules (and not make up our own) this is a non-issue.

ZorkFox


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ZorkFox
Re: Lab Rat


I like the subtle menace implied by the green glow thrown on the rat from the right: like the little spill in the cage is some horrid substance.

You are in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.

JohnDuncanYoyo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages JohnDuncanYoyo
sacrerouge wrote:I don't know about you, but staples will staple you. If your finger is in the wrong place, you will be stapled


Doctors have used surgical staplers for years. I remember my dad coming home from a gall bladder operation stapled closed in the seventies.

dorkabunny


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dorkabunny

i love that you have a pipetteman complete with an actual pipette tip.

faultylogic83


quality posts: 2 Private Messages faultylogic83
SeedUvPain wrote:It's almost as if two people worked on it...but that's not possible here, is it?


When I first saw the rat I thought it looked like seki's computer mouse from the visual pun derby.
It's not as if these two have a history together or anything... *cough*

Hammylink


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Hammylink
Re: Lab Rat


He's holding the pipette wrong which makes it not as appealing for me.

I think the simple people are ok since I think we do the same thing to cute little animals all the time carcaturizing them into something more sanitary and benign.

______________________________________________

sacrerouge


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sacrerouge
Hammylink wrote:He's holding the pipette wrong which makes it not as appealing for me.


This is the same reason I can't vote for it. You don't hold it by the very top piece.

RaveDroid


quality posts: 15 Private Messages RaveDroid
Darquis wrote:It's so he has first comment reserved. I couldn't speak to why the comment still would say saved now.


Ahh... I always thought it was because he assumed it would be an original submission with which he could redeem himself LOL

If you can read this, yourᅠbrowser'sᅠCompatibilityᅠsettings
areᅠconfiguredᅠcorrectly.ᅠᅠツ

mgarns


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mgarns
Re: Lab Rat


Hope this shirt prints. I am a complete lab rat, just give me a lab bench and something to research!

Ryuzaki


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Ryuzaki
Re: Lab Rat


In Soviet Russia...

deltax20a


quality posts: 1 Private Messages deltax20a
ramyb wrote:When I came up with the idea, I did a very extensive search to see if there were any similar shirts out there and found none. Finding shirts that were submitted but never printed, and three years ago no less, at another site is unfortunately very difficult to track down. That design came long before my time either on woot or threadless, so it's just an unfortunate case of two designers coming up with similar ideas. I work in a lab and use a setup extremely similar to this one, and mice are the animal I study, so this was a very natural design for me to come up with. In general though, woot's stance has been that they reject if similar shirts exist, not similar ideas. If this is going to get into an argument about how any idea that has been thought of by anyone else before should be off limits, I hope that people are planning to research every archive on every site to ensure that all the shirts they are voting for are entirely one of a kind. I hate to be so cynical about the topic, but after weeks of having my face bashed in for doing designs that other people have come up with in some form in the past, I've done quite a bit of searching and can assure you that I can find about 90% of the derby winners on woot in some form done by some other artist. I remember when the ceiling chthulu was in the derby, a extremely similar image was found somewhere else, but the arguments went entirely the other way, with people freaking out that since it wasn't printed on a shirt, it shouldn't matter. It isn't a matter of coincidence, it's a matter of the sheer volume of artwork that has been done and posted in the 10+ years that people have been keeping online portfolios. Woot is looking for designs that haven't been printed somewhere else first, and I'd like to think I provided that with this entry, whether someone came up with the idea at some other point or not. In other cases, where a design has been printed elsewhere and I hadn't seen it before, I will gladly concede that woot should go for a rejection, but that isn't the case here.


I'm impressed you actually replied.

That said, I actually think this shirt has potential merit and really begs the question, why are you so inconsistent week-to-week? Art style is one thing but it's like you've adopted the philosophy of "eh, if it sucks, someone might buy it anyway" when it truly sucks.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
deltax20a wrote:I'm impressed you actually replied.

That said, I actually think this shirt has potential merit and really begs the question, why are you so inconsistent week-to-week? Art style is one thing but it's like you've adopted the philosophy of "eh, if it sucks, someone might buy it anyway" when it truly sucks.


I think some weeks I'm just more on the ball in terms of illustration quality. There's never a situation in which I intentionally spend less time on an entry than I feel it deserves, but sometimes things just work out. In this case, I'm particularly familiar with the equipment I illustrated, so it was very easy for me to put the design together at a quality level that I thought to be satisfactory. Other weeks I choose to go for a simple idea with a simple execution, but I don't think they are necessarily worse in terms of quality, just a lower level of detail. There are also times in which I think a design looks good, but after a few days and reading through the comments, I start to see that it just wasn't done quite right. I think everyone has these types of experiences, and while I wish every design I did could be to every person's liking, I know that isn't the case so I just design until I'm satisfied. I'm not sure what particular problems you have with my entries from week to week that you don't see here, but you can feel free to leave critique if something looks off and I can at least take it into consideration in future entries.

yankeebird


quality posts: 7 Private Messages yankeebird
Darquis wrote:It's so he has first comment reserved. I couldn't speak to why the comment still would say saved now.


Laziness.

djskellington


quality posts: 0 Private Messages djskellington
Re: Lab Rat


Voted. If this becomes available, I'm getting two - one for myself and one for my wife.

luzithra


quality posts: 0 Private Messages luzithra
sacrerouge wrote:This is the same reason I can't vote for it. You don't hold it by the very top piece.


It's not like mice/rats have opposable thumbs how do you want him to be holding it?

luzithra


quality posts: 0 Private Messages luzithra
littleclyde wrote:Oh, I'm the first to admit that the concept could be entirely coincidental since, yeah, role reversal is nothing new. But I'm a little disturbed by the similarity in the composition, the horizontal table line, the exact same perspective and elements, the cage position, the mouse outfit, etc. I usually don't like saying a design reminds me of another one, but in this case was like "huh, I've voted on something exactly like this before", and when I found KDLIG's design in my voting history I was kind of taken aback by just how similar they were. Make of it what you will, just thought I'd point it out.


um, tables ARE horizontal, it's the logical perspective to allow for everything to be in view, the set-up makes the most sense given right-handedness, and the outfit!! a lab coat, which looks exactly like a lab coat! Oragutan Mating Guide! you even pointed out that the styles are completely different, the 'science' is very different (fitness v chem). For someone who is posting in a thread judging a shirt in a derby about scientific method you used very little reasoning in comparing these shirts.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/09/11/the-texas-sharpshooter-fallacy/ <-- article about applying importance to perceived similarities

sacrerouge


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sacrerouge
luzithra wrote:It's not like mice/rats have opposable thumbs how do you want him to be holding it?



They also don't wear glasses and lab coats.
I want him to be holding it in a way that wouldn't damage it.

It's a neat idea, I've just had to work with one of those things so much, as have many friends, that it would bother me to have it wrong on my shirt

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
sacrerouge wrote:They also don't wear glasses and lab coats.
I want him to be holding it in a way that wouldn't damage it.

It's a neat idea, I've just had to work with one of those things so much, as have many friends, that it would bother me to have it wrong on my shirt


pmed you

beblount


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beblount
Re: Lab Rat


Dang! I was so going to buy this shirt if it came up as a winner. =/

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