Derby #190: Magic
+1102

They call me... Tim

They call me... Tim
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Coffeesloth


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Coffeesloth

Very nice! I'd buy one for sure!

hinokakera


quality posts: 0 Private Messages hinokakera
Re: They call me... Tim


Loved it!

richmeadephoto


quality posts: 0 Private Messages richmeadephoto
Re: They call me... Tim


I think I like it better without the face...
Kudos!

bluejester


quality posts: 550 Private Messages bluejester
Re: They call me... Tim


Looks like you "defaced" him.
HAHHAHAHa....

okay, still an awesome design, re-voted.

artbreaker


quality posts: 0 Private Messages artbreaker
Re: They call me... Tim


Love the new face on the warlock! Would buy for sure.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=52144

Spiritgreen


quality posts: 197 Private Messages Spiritgreen
Re: They call me... Tim


Was there a celebrity likeness issue with the first sub?

Either way, this still looks hawt. Maybe even better like this.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
Re: They call me... Tim


It's a nice image at all, but I can't possibly see this making it past rejection. I don't see any parody or satire or statement. It's just fan art.

PittViking


quality posts: 2 Private Messages PittViking
Re: They call me... Tim


So many fond memories of watching Holy Grail. I must have this shirt if it wins. Good luck!

derkis


quality posts: 1 Private Messages derkis
Re: They call me... Tim


This is awesome. The painterly effect you've achieved rendering the fire looks superb especially given the color restrictions, and that rocky escarpment...tasty.

My only gripe is the gray shirt. I try to avoid buying gray and black tees, but if this print's I'll probably grab it anyways.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
Re: They call me... Tim


So, all you changed is the face?

I have to agree with a couple of the above posters. This is just fan art. No parody, no original idea, no(t) on topic.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

JRWorkshop


quality posts: 0 Private Messages JRWorkshop

Still mind blowing, still in asphalt....Dilema dilema...


ressamac


quality posts: 4 Private Messages ressamac
Re: They call me... Tim


This is wonderful. GMV! I think a fiery killer bunny is parody.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
ressamac wrote:This is wonderful. GMV! I think a fiery killer bunny is parody.


Not when the reference is to an actual killer bunny.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

studio1172


quality posts: 0 Private Messages studio1172
Re: They call me... Tim


Holy Grail designs will always get my vote.

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck

i think the point of parody IS to reference something. the bunny wasnt made of flames in the movie right? so its not the bunny from the movie, and that wizard is close without being an exact likeness. i like this, wonderfully done and funny. i especially like how you've treated the rock cliff. ive been wanting to get a patrickpens shirt, hopefully this will be my first.

paigeg


quality posts: 7 Private Messages paigeg
Re: They call me... Tim


Plus one from me. If I could plus more, I would. I LOVE the meld of the old-school wizard with the bunny meme/joke.
Just -PUH-LEEZE! Can anyone design on anything but asphalt?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
megsck wrote:i think the point of parody IS to reference something. the bunny wasnt made of flames in the movie right? so its not the bunny from the movie


Putting the reject or not argument aside, this is not parody.

Parody is "a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an original work." This isn't mocking Holy Grail; it isn't commenting on it (usually done by making some political or social commentary); and it isn't making fun of it.

Whatever this is -- fan art, reinterpretation, etc. -- it is decidedly not parody.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
kylemittskus wrote:Putting the reject or not argument aside, this is not parody.

Parody is "a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an original work." This isn't mocking Holy Grail; it isn't commenting on it (usually done by making some political or social commentary); and it isn't making fun of it.

Whatever this is -- fan art, reinterpretation, etc. -- it is decidedly not parody.


i think the movie was mocking the fantasy genre, this is putting that ridiculous non horrifying scenario back into a more realistic perspective. so i guess it is mocking the holy grail as much as the holy grail was mocking it. o_O

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
megsck wrote:i think the movie was mocking the fantasy genre, this is putting that ridiculous non horrifying scenario back into a more realistic perspective. so i guess it is mocking the holy grail as much as the holy grail was mocking it. o_O


The movie is mocking fantasy? Really? (Seriously, not being sarcastic.) It's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't remember any fantasy-esque elements. It seemed to be more parodic of the "quest" genre. I'm not a huge fan, though, so I could be wrong.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
kylemittskus wrote:The movie is mocking fantasy? Really? (Seriously, not being sarcastic.) It's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't remember any fantasy-esque elements. It seemed to be more parodic of the "quest" genre. I'm not a huge fan, though, so I could be wrong.


i kinda lump them together, fantasy, epic quests, anything with wizards and things really. =)

juliaL719


quality posts: 0 Private Messages juliaL719
kylemittskus wrote:Putting the reject or not argument aside, this is not parody.

Parody is "a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an original work." This isn't mocking Holy Grail; it isn't commenting on it (usually done by making some political or social commentary); and it isn't making fun of it.

Whatever this is -- fan art, reinterpretation, etc. -- it is decidedly not parody.


Agreed on this point.

TeeFury would eat it up, though.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
megsck wrote:i kinda lump them together, fantasy, epic quests, anything with wizards and things really. =)


Fair enough. I still disagree with your parody argument but do understand where you're coming from.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

ressamac


quality posts: 4 Private Messages ressamac
Re: They call me... Tim


"A literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule."

I think patrickspens nailed the comic effect. Might parody (as all artistic endeavor) be subjective?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
ressamac wrote:"A literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule."

I think patrickspens nailed the comic effect. Might parody (as all artistic endeavor) be subjective?


I suppose so. But the problem is that there is no added comic effect here since the movie itself is parodic; hence, by your definition, the movie itself is comedic. You can't take something that is already a parody (by comedic effect) and just use the same idea, characters, etc. and say, "It's parody because it's comedic." The problem is that the source is too.

Parody turns something around from the original to reveal another side; it makes fun of the source; it hides social or political commentary behind absurdity. This design just copies the comedy of the movie.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

KevinSGreen


quality posts: 7 Private Messages KevinSGreen
kylemittskus wrote:I suppose so. But the problem is that there is no added comic effect here since the movie itself is parodic; hence, by your definition, the movie itself is comedic. You can't take something that is already a parody (by comedic effect) and just use the same idea, characters, etc. and say, "It's parody because it's comedic." The problem is that the source is too.

Parody turns something around from the original to reveal another side; it makes fun of the source; it hides social or political commentary behind absurdity. This design just copies the comedy of the movie.


Parody, by whatever definition you care to ascribe, is not required according to the the derby blurb and is therefore irrelevant.

To quote: "That's why for this Derby we want to see your interpretations of magic: its power, its effects on people and nature, or maybe just your favorite magic trick. Conjure up some images that invoke power, showmanship, and mysticism."

I'd say Tim definitely falls into the showmanship category if nothing else.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
KevinSGreen wrote:Parody, by whatever definition you care to ascribe, is not required according to the the derby blurb and is therefore irrelevant.

To quote: "That's why for this Derby we want to see your interpretations of magic: its power, its effects on people and nature, or maybe just your favorite magic trick. Conjure up some images that invoke power, showmanship, and mysticism."

I'd say Tim definitely falls into the showmanship category if nothing else.


Parody is required by law for use of intellectual property for profit. If this shirt is made and Monty Python decides to sue, woot would have to prove that there is some form of parody and this shirt makes some kind of statement that the original creators would not have been comfortable with. Woot would lose that battle pretty quickly.

AS stated many many many many many many times before, parody is a defense. IP is property and the burden of proof is on the party creating the derivative work not the license owner.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
mrwednesday wrote:Parody is required by law for use of intellectual property for profit. If this shirt is made and Monty Python decides to sue, woot would have to prove that there is some form of parody and this shirt makes some kind of statement that the original creators would not have been comfortable with. Woot would lose that battle pretty quickly.

AS stated many many many many many many times before, parody is a defense. IP is property and the burden of proof is on the party creating the derivative work not the license owner.


QFT.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

uniique


quality posts: 2 Private Messages uniique
Re: They call me... Tim


Can't wait to buy this! unnfff! yah!
if it survives the parody debate, that is. :/

tomsman


quality posts: 2 Private Messages tomsman

I saw this and my jaw hit the floor, perhaps you even heard my squeal before it did. Killer design! I'm already trying to figure out how to pay for the number of shirts required for all of my friends who are Holy Grail freaks and/or notify them if/when it is printed before it sells out... Tim is awesome, but coupled with the killer bunny (we call him "Alfie")... Words alone...

Looking for MXLs Alien Sonogram, Tin: Old Skool, Puppet Checkup and Flesh Wound from Teefury; A Wicked Mess, F5 Refreshes You, and Sissy Fight. PM or teetrade (tomsman)for trade or sell.

KevinSGreen


quality posts: 7 Private Messages KevinSGreen
mrwednesday wrote:Parody is required by law for use of intellectual property for profit.


Please state the precise US statute and relevant case law to support your assertion. I suspect that you cannot, because parody is only one possible fair use. There is no statute that calls out a requirement for parody to the exclusion of all other fair use.

This article, by an IP attorney, is a useful reference. In fact, the 5th paragraph explicitly calls out that there is not even a clear-cut line. The courts are stymied by parody vs fair use.
http://www.publaw.com/article/parody-fair-use-or-copyright-infringement/

You'll note that the article points out there are 4 aspects when considering fair use, and only one of them is potential market effect, which is not exactly the same thing as profit.

mrwednesday wrote:If this shirt is made and Monty Python decides to sue, woot would have to prove...


I believe if you study the Terms & Conditions, it quite effectively shields Woot, its subsidiaries, etc from liability arising from copyright infrigement. I suspect it would be the artist that would need to defend a fair use claim.

mrwednesday wrote:AS stated many many many many many many times before, parody is a defense.


'a' being the operative word.


And, as I said, no where in the call for submissions did Woot require parody.

Moreover, nowhere in the original film did the Tim character conjure up a fiery rabbit. This image is a justoposition of the pyrotechnic effects created by that character, as well as his relation to the killer rabbit skit. Therefore it could easily be considered a commentary or reflection on how that justaposition affected and inspired the artist.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
KevinSGreen wrote:snip



Please read the article for yourself. Several times because It's clear you didn't understand it or skimmed it too quickly to realize what it is saying. The bottom line is that creators of a work own that work and burden of proof is on the creator of the derivative work to show that they fall under fair use.

If you go through that checklist you'll see that copying something to make money off of it without changing anything is never going to fall under fair use. Parody is one of the primary means to show that it is fair use because the copyright owner is unlikely to grant use to something critical of their work.

If you are just copying something for monetary gain (as this is) there is very little reason that you shouldn't have gotten permission first. That's the point. It doesn't matter if woot requires parody or not. And woot is liable no matter what their disclaimers state, which is why they are part of the litigation against seki and why they take down shirts that have been found to be stolen images or ideas.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
mrwednesday wrote:Please read the article for yourself.


I didn't read the article because this isn't a god damned law class. Parody is how shirt.woot protects itself. Are there other protections? Apparently so. But the fact remains that woot rejects designs for lack of parody when copyrighted images and characters are used and allows designs that clearly parody said copyrighted material.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

KevinSGreen


quality posts: 7 Private Messages KevinSGreen
mrwednesday wrote:Please read the article for yourself.

I did, prior to my original post, thanks.

mrwednesday wrote:Several times because It's clear you didn't understand it or skimmed it too quickly to realize what it is saying.

Incorrect. But as kylemittskus so eloquently put it, this isn't a law class. Since my response was already long, I didn't think a longer analysis / commentary would serve any positive purpose.

Personally, I enjoy these kind of debates and could go on ad naseum. But, I'm off for a few days R&R with the kids and the debate would be stale. Plus, I doubt the other Wooters care to read our back-and-forth.

So, I'm deleting the rest of the response I was crafting and wishing you well. I'll check later to see what happened.

nsomniotic


quality posts: 2 Private Messages nsomniotic
Re: They call me... Tim


Second Tim reference I've seen in the derby - loving it! I have some Monty Python fans that will want this so I hope it prints!! <3

wootastical.

madkatalpha


quality posts: 0 Private Messages madkatalpha
Re: They call me... Tim


This shirt made my morning. Voted and hoping that I can buy one down the road.

paulsholmquist


quality posts: 0 Private Messages paulsholmquist
Re: They call me... Tim


Egads, I would wear this!

vividimaginer


quality posts: 0 Private Messages vividimaginer

patrick...this looks amazing! such a great design, sits a little big on the shirt for me to buy but still i had to tell you i loved the illustration.

vividimaginer


quality posts: 0 Private Messages vividimaginer

ok i bought one for my brother anyway, he's not as picky about design as i

vividimaginer


quality posts: 0 Private Messages vividimaginer

oh and sorry for the comment spam...but for the record i'm glad the original was rejected, i LOVE the treatment on this warlock much better.

goldenthorn


quality posts: 38 Private Messages goldenthorn

Volunteer Moderator

vividimaginer wrote:oh and sorry for the comment spam...but for the record i'm glad the original was rejected, i LOVE the treatment on this warlock much better.


Heyyy!!! Guess what?! You can edit your own comments to add or change words! So, like, instead of three comments in a row? You could edit your original comment into a longer, fuller, more satisfying comment (IS WHAT SHE SAID). You will find the "edit post" button in the bottom right of your own comment's box, next to "reply" and "tattle."
Just a little EFF WHY EYEZ for your commentatory edification!

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