Derby #196: Amusement Parks

Scary Ride

Let's focus on improving our own artwork.

Rejected because: Let's focus on improving our own artwork.

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gumiyo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gumiyo
Re: Scary Ride


saved

Assassin15


quality posts: 161 Private Messages Assassin15
gumiyo wrote:saved


What the... to quote Samurai Jack, "What trickery is this?!"

PULL UP YOUR SKIRT, WE'RE ON A MISSION/
WE NEED A HERO, NOT A POLITICIAN - "Panhammer" by Phinehas

sefjwm


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sefjwm
Re: Scary Ride


What the? Another new ramy lookalike artist? Here we go again.

ignorant


quality posts: 5 Private Messages ignorant
gumiyo wrote:saved


you forgot the

ignorant


quality posts: 5 Private Messages ignorant

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
Re: Scary Ride


LOL! You forgot to switch accounts or something Ramy.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

Katanaangel


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Katanaangel
Re: Scary Ride


I gotta ask, is this a collab? The little kid looks different enough, but that "Death" is very, very familiar. Unfortunately it almost feels like they don't mesh to me. Lighting/cloth just feel off from one character to another.

And I think I can tell what it is- Death has a lot of highlights, his cloth is moving around, a lot. The kid is surprisingly flat in comparison- no ruffles on the clothes, no highlights on the skin. I understand you may be going for the "kid looks queasy" look, but...

Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5
Re: Scary Ride


If I had to guess, this is the work of an extremely pathetic artist that might actually think they could get a print by ripping off ramy.

ChaosDoctor07


quality posts: 9 Private Messages ChaosDoctor07
Katanaangel wrote:I gotta ask, is this a collab? The little kid looks different enough, but that "Death" is very, very familiar. Unfortunately it almost feels like they don't mesh to me. Lighting/cloth just feel off from one character to another.

And I think I can tell what it is- Death has a lot of highlights, his cloth is moving around, a lot. The kid is surprisingly flat in comparison- no ruffles on the clothes, no highlights on the skin. I understand you may be going for the "kid looks queasy" look, but...


That's my impression too...As soon as I say the thumbnail, I thought, well here's Ramy's entry(oh hey, it's Death again) and then...Not so much.

The "death" character looks like a near perfect impression of Ramy's one(unless, in fact, they are one in the same), while the kid looks, style-wise, a bit different.

Should be interesting to see how this one turns out.

"Don't believe in the you who believes in me. Don't believe in the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself."

ChaosDoctor07


quality posts: 9 Private Messages ChaosDoctor07
Johndis5 wrote:If I had to guess, this is the work of an extremely pathetic artist that might actually think they could get a print by ripping off ramy.


My guess is, you're probably exactly right.

"Don't believe in the you who believes in me. Don't believe in the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself."

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
Re: Scary Ride


The kid to me, looks alot like the kids he just drew in the zombie derby.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=52014

Specifically the middle kid's hair shape is the same, the hands look the same, the expression is a little different, but he's still got Ramy shiny button eyes.

I think there is no doubt this is Ramyb and he just forgot to switch back to his main account after creating yet another of what is no doubt hundreds of alt accounts he controls.. :P

I expect this to be removed pretty soon and put back up under Ramyb when he catches his mistake.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

Katanaangel


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Katanaangel
bluetuba wrote:The kid to me, looks alot like the kids he just drew in the zombie derby.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=52014

Specifically the middle kid's hair shape is the same, the hands look the same, the expression is a little different, but he's still got Ramy shiny button eyes.


That's the thing, though. The eyes are indeed button eyes, but they look significantly different than his normal work. Plus, the kid has nothing "shiny" about him.. like my earlier comment, it's like this artist (whomever it is) ran out of colors and just said, "Meh! Close enough".

It looks to me like two different people worked on it, and unlike the other dynamic duos on this site for artwork, they didn't come to a middle ground and used their own styles entirely seperately.

:/ I dunno.

mjc613


quality posts: 48 Private Messages mjc613
Re: Scary Ride


Could this be a Jimiyo/Ramy collab?

taternuggets


quality posts: 22 Private Messages taternuggets
Re: Scary Ride


This wont add anything to that manipulation through multiple identities crazy conspiracy talk.


Nothing follows.

odysseyroc


quality posts: 33 Private Messages odysseyroc
Re: Scary Ride


Your knowledge of scientific biological transmogrifications, is only outmatched by your zest for kung-fu treachery!





mafafu888


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mafafu888
bluetuba wrote:LOL! You forgot to switch accounts or something Ramy.


That was my first thought as well.

DianaSprinkle


quality posts: 112 Private Messages DianaSprinkle
Re: Scary Ride


Sorry guys but there's no way this is Ramyb. He may have a lot of problems to complain about but not finishing half the coloring and the completely different way the kid is colored compared to death are pretty good tip offs. The fact that the cart has no highlights or shadows and the BOLD line work in the background are pretty telling. And also the more muted palette and conservative simple use of half toning are not like him...

This is just someone messing around.

Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5
DianaSprinkle wrote:Sorry guys but there's no way this is Ramyb. He may have a lot of problems to complain about but not finishing half the coloring and the completely different way the kid is colored compared to death are pretty good tip offs. The fact that the cart has no highlights or shadows and the BOLD line work in the background are pretty telling. And also the more muted palette and conservative simple use of half toning are not like him...

This is just someone messing around.


I don't think this was a ramy slip up either, there is no pointless glowyness. This is almost certainly someone else. Whatever their motives are, I find it pretty pathetic on all levels.

Assassin15


quality posts: 161 Private Messages Assassin15
Re: Scary Ride


Well, all this makes one wonder, where's Ramy's actual submission?

PULL UP YOUR SKIRT, WE'RE ON A MISSION/
WE NEED A HERO, NOT A POLITICIAN - "Panhammer" by Phinehas

Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5
Assassin15 wrote:Well, all this makes one wonder, where's Ramy's actual submission?


That's the only thing about this that seems fishy. Perhaps he collabed with someone too embarrassed to let it be known? Maybe seki came in to try and eff up his game? Maybe he was dumb and sloppy this week?

Oh the things that are possible!

I still think this is most likely just another artist being a Vogonity.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
DianaSprinkle wrote:Sorry guys but there's no way this is Ramyb. He may have a lot of problems to complain about but not finishing half the coloring and the completely different way the kid is colored compared to death are pretty good tip offs. The fact that the cart has no highlights or shadows and the BOLD line work in the background are pretty telling. And also the more muted palette and conservative simple use of half toning are not like him...

This is just someone messing around.


I look forward to hearing from more artists on this, I'm a shirt wearer not creator, hehe To the dummy layman the similarities are remarkable.

Either way this is an interesting derby development!

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
Re: Scary Ride


This design looks like it stole another artist's work, character, and style. It may be "mockery," but if so, then it's not too obvious. Right now it looks more like thievery. This should not be supported in my opinion.

I say the human is different enough, but death/ grim reaper looks too much of a rip off. If this is a joke or mockery, make it far more clear. At the moment, this is a huge NO-NO in the art world.


Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5
chumpmagic wrote:This design looks like it stole another artist's work, character, and style. It may be "mockery," but if so, then it's not too obvious. Right now it looks more like thievery. This should not be supported in my opinion.

I say the human is different enough, but death/ grim reaper looks too much of a rip off. If this is a joke or mockery, make it far more clear. At the moment, this is a huge NO-NO in the art world.


Even as a joke or mockery, it's unprofessional.

If it's not meant to be a joke, then you are right. Stealing is a huge no-no, even if you think the person you are stealing from is a thief themselves.

tico0001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tico0001
Re: Scary Ride


Aah! Shirt Woot Derby... what would I do without you?
You are so full of drama and entertainment, trickery, mockery, forgery, thievery, photo and vector tracing, astounding half-toning, amazing and mediocre art, improbable shading, etc.
Of course, none of this would be possible without the contribution from our favorite usual suspects and artists like, in no particular order, walmazan, patrickspens, tgentry, seki(the nom nom indicent provided me with days of planetary proportion amusement!), ramyb, adder and mr Wed (where are you guys? miss you <3), jlegos and now gumiyo(welcome to this mess!), radiomode, kdeuce, boots, dianaS, kasey, jasneko, Drakxxx, cmdixon, crecendebris, et al.

Again, thank you! Look at me, I'm getting all sentimental...

~Tico

Assassin15


quality posts: 161 Private Messages Assassin15
tico0001 wrote:Aah! Shirt Woot Derby... what would I do without you?
You are so full of drama and entertainment, trickery, mockery, forgery, thievery, photo and vector tracing, astounding half-toning, amazing and mediocre art, improbable shading, etc.
Of course, none of this would be possible without the contribution from our favorite usual suspects and artists like, in no particular order, walmazan, patrickspens, tgentry, seki(the nom nom indicent provided me with days of planetary proportion amusement!), ramyb, adder and mr Wed (where are you guys? miss you <3), jlegos and now gumiyo(welcome to this mess!), radiomode, kdeuce, boots, dianaS, kasey, jasneko, Drakxxx, cmdixon, crecendebris, et al.

Again, thank you! Look at me, I'm getting all sentimental...

~Tico


Post of the decade! That's exactly what I think!

PULL UP YOUR SKIRT, WE'RE ON A MISSION/
WE NEED A HERO, NOT A POLITICIAN - "Panhammer" by Phinehas

NameyMcName


quality posts: 10 Private Messages NameyMcName
bluetuba wrote:The kid to me, looks alot like the kids he just drew in the zombie derby.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=52014

Specifically the middle kid's hair shape is the same, the hands look the same, the expression is a little different, but he's still got Ramy shiny button eyes.


It doesn't look like how Ramy draws people to me. The colors are too muted, the eyes are set higher, and lines on the clothing are a lot more curved.

chennai8


quality posts: 2 Private Messages chennai8
tico0001 wrote:Aah! Shirt Woot Derby... what would I do without you?
You are so full of drama and entertainment, trickery, mockery, forgery, thievery, photo and vector tracing, astounding half-toning, amazing and mediocre art, improbable shading, etc.
Of course, none of this would be possible without the contribution from our favorite usual suspects and artists like, in no particular order, walmazan, patrickspens, tgentry, seki(the nom nom indicent provided me with days of planetary proportion amusement!), ramyb, adder and mr Wed (where are you guys? miss you <3), jlegos and now gumiyo(welcome to this mess!), radiomode, kdeuce, boots, dianaS, kasey, jasneko, Drakxxx, cmdixon, crecendebris, et al.

Again, thank you! Look at me, I'm getting all sentimental...

~Tico


Amen!

neyfam2000 wrote:Woot!--going from "Deal-a-day" to "Site-a-day"

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
Re: Scary Ride


One more gargleblaster! This is so amazingly clever cause like roller coasters are scary and like death is on it cause you could so like die. I never would have thought of that in a million years the artistry is just so phenomenal.

+++1 SQueeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

bluejester


quality posts: 564 Private Messages bluejester
tico0001 wrote:Aah! Shirt Woot Derby... what would I do without you?
You are so full of drama and entertainment, trickery, mockery, forgery, thievery, photo and vector tracing, astounding half-toning, amazing and mediocre art, improbable shading, etc.
Of course, none of this would be possible without the contribution from our favorite usual suspects and artists like, in no particular order, walmazan, patrickspens, tgentry, seki(the nom nom indicent provided me with days of planetary proportion amusement!), ramyb, adder and mr Wed (where are you guys? miss you <3), jlegos and now gumiyo(welcome to this mess!), radiomode, kdeuce, boots, dianaS, kasey, jasneko, Drakxxx, cmdixon, crecendebris, et al.

Again, thank you! Look at me, I'm getting all sentimental...

~Tico


::Sniffles:: Choking back the tears here. Thank God for woot, with my favorite soaps getting canceled, where am I to go for all my drama?

::ahem:: *I mean* I like manly things, YES! Manly! Shotguns, beer, football.

specsmachine


quality posts: 31 Private Messages specsmachine
chumpmagic wrote:If this is a joke or mockery, make it far more clear. At the moment, this is a huge NO-NO in the art world.


The "saved" comment is a clear indication of mockery. The question for me is if Ramy has the stones big enough to call him on it. Shoe, meet other foot.

jerabatten


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jerabatten
Re: Scary Ride



Oh my god, I clicked it and thought for sure it was Ramyb.

jerabatten


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jerabatten
jerabatten wrote:Oh my god, I clicked it and thought for sure it was Ramyb.


But I see Dianasprinkle's point, and what you all are saying upon further analysis. It is a clever move just to show the Death's head in the thumbnail, which is what got me!

chennai8


quality posts: 2 Private Messages chennai8

If it was Ramyb's it'd be in the fog by now.

neyfam2000 wrote:Woot!--going from "Deal-a-day" to "Site-a-day"

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
chennai8 wrote:If it was Ramyb's it'd be in the fog by now.


I think that says everything we need to say about ramy's work. It's clearly intended to look like Ramy (the reaper is 100% Ramy, even if this isn't Ramy... not like his style is difficult to ape). But it's not fogged immediately, and not deleted from the site to re-enter. That wouldn't be odd for anyone else, really, but it is for him. So why does ramy's name make a tee more successful? I don't think that should require much thought.

I agree with what others are saying, though. Stealing is despicable. Even if you're stealing from a thief. Whoever created this is as low as Ramy is, and should never be treated as anything but a money-grubbing cheat.

phantom240


quality posts: 4 Private Messages phantom240


Smells like a ripoff.

Inamity


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Inamity
AdderXYU wrote:Whoever created this is as low as Ramy is, and should never be treated as anything but a money-grubbing cheat.


I disagree, there should be more entries like this. There should be a whole Ramyb derby. It would be like Halloween, where everyone could dress up as their favourite monster.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Inamity wrote:I disagree, there should be more entries like this. There should be a whole Ramyb derby. It would be like Halloween, where everyone could dress up as their favourite monster.


I don't care who wins if it's a design with integrity and quality and, preferably, creativity. An entire derby of Ramy wouldn't yield a single design of that sort.

Still, there is a huge difference between mocking the mock-worthy and pandering. This entry exists solely to make money off work that doesn't deserve to make money from its "original" source (which arguably isn't Ramy, but inarguably isn't gumiyo). That sort of work should have no place anywhere.

DJTweekNYC


quality posts: 4 Private Messages DJTweekNYC
Inamity wrote:I disagree, there should be more entries like this. There should be a whole Ramyb derby. It would be like Halloween, where everyone could dress up as their favourite monster.


You would like this then. Someone sent me this. I don't know who did it but I guess they tweeted it and it makes me giggle with glee.

http://img684.imageshack.us/i/shirtwoot.png/

IgnatiusRiley


quality posts: 1 Private Messages IgnatiusRiley

What exactly is being stolen here? Does Ramy have a copyright on hastily drawn baby reapers?

I think this is a riot. It's further evidence (not that it was needed) that anyone with a modicum of artistic ability can produce Ramy-style junk. Yet when it's under another person's name it doesn't shoot to the fog. And I'm not the least bit surprised.

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
IgnatiusRiley wrote:What exactly is being stolen here? Does Ramy have a copyright on hastily drawn baby reapers?


usually if an artist designs a certain character that they use over and over, they can easily copyright it and claim it their own. obviously a lot of people do this, especially if they are using that character online, so it can be stolen.

IgnatiusRiley wrote:
It's further evidence (not that it was needed) that anyone with a modicum of artistic ability can produce Ramy-style junk. Yet when it's under another person's name it doesn't shoot to the fog. And I'm not the least bit surprised.


first off, i think if there is evidence of anything, its that its obvious whoever subbed this had more than an a, "modicum of artistic ability" this design doesnt scream newbie to me, i think the artist knows what they are doing. Also, if you are copying something, its not that hard to reproduce it. obviously if it were easy to color and shade like ramy, then they would have done it to the rest of the design and not the only part they obviously had reference for.

lastly i didnt think it was any big secret that ramy has a ton of fans who come here and vote for his stuff when he announces he has a new submission. that is why his stuff shoots to the fog. this person obviously isnt telling anyone openly about his design here, and even still its pretty close to the fog, which makes me think people like that sort of thing.

besides all that however, if this isnt a ramy sub, it is either pandering for votes by straight out copying ramy's death character, or its trying to mock him in some fashion. either way its unprofessional, disrespectful, and petty.

studio1172


quality posts: 0 Private Messages studio1172
Re: Scary Ride


If it is truly not Ramy, then in the words of Mr. Burns, "Excellent." *strumming fingers together* All artists should realize that they are not delicate or original snowflakes. There is always someone that knows how to clone your art. If art clones start popping up in the derbies, maybe, just maybe, it will cause certain artists to change their M.O. Especially ones with a small bag of tricks. I am not talking about illustrative style, I am talking about content and subject matter.

Sevenie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Sevenie
chennai8 wrote:If it was Ramyb's it'd be in the fog by now.


Not gonna lie. My first thought when I saw the thumbnail was, "Whoa...Ramy isn't in the fog already?"

kimvy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kimvy

Having never submitted a design, isn't there an identification process that artists go through to submit something? If so, then wouldn't Woot know if this was Ramyb or someone else and their name?

Or does that only happen if there's a top three placement or editor's choice?

It'll be interesting to see if this gets rejected or?

sTyLeS


quality posts: 9 Private Messages sTyLeS
kimvy wrote:Having never submitted a design, isn't there an identification process that artists go through to submit something? If so, then wouldn't Woot know if this was Ramyb or someone else and their name?

Or does that only happen if there's a top three placement or editor's choice?

It'll be interesting to see if this gets rejected or?


There's no process. Anyone with an account can submit a design. And unlike the voting process, you don't even need to have purchased anything before in order to submit something.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
Re: Scary Ride

I'm sure this has been tattled to death (lol) by now...does the rejectionator take days off?

move along

tomsman


quality posts: 2 Private Messages tomsman
Sevenie wrote:Not gonna lie. My first thought when I saw the thumbnail was, "Whoa...Ramy isn't in the fog already?"

Same here. I saw the name and did a double take.

Looking for MXLs Alien Sonogram, Tin: Old Skool, Puppet Checkup and Flesh Wound from Teefury; A Wicked Mess, F5 Refreshes You, and Sissy Fight. PM or teetrade (tomsman)for trade or sell.

lilaviel


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lilaviel
Re: Scary Ride


It's cute, but I don't get it. This one's a miss for me. What happened to the shirts like the one for woodcuts? I wanna see more like that, ramyb.

ichimunki


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ichimunki
chumpmagic wrote:At the moment, this is a huge NO-NO in the art world.


A huge no no? in the ART world? Ha. Not hardly. Maybe in the commercial, Disney-ified we-take-public-domain stories and turn them into our Intellectumal Propitty(TM) world. But in the real art world this sort of thing has been going on for years and years and years. Please to research: Marcel Duchamp. Andy Warhol.

I believe this "ripoff" is just unsubtle enough to indicate Mockery of the Highest Sort. Indeed, the very fact that Ramyb submitted several designs in the last derby, one of which traded heavily on a trademarked character *already on the Reckoning page* opens him up to just this sort of commentary.

Or perhaps this is Ramyb messing with our heads. By igniting just this sort of discussion!

Hahahah! That would be a meta-mockery of the highest order!

I'm still not voting for this shirt because I would never wear it.

fishbiscuit5


quality posts: 35 Private Messages fishbiscuit5
Re: Scary Ride


I thought for sure this would be in the fog this morning.



JRWorkshop


quality posts: 0 Private Messages JRWorkshop

+1. If generic mediocrity would win twice a week, let's support the ones who don't cash in every week.


mgarns


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mgarns
Re: Scary Ride


This looks like a really bad collab. If ramy had actually done the whole shirt design and not just his normal death character this would have fogged already. The rest of the design lacks the depth that ramyb usually gives. On a positive note the background to a lot of ramyb reaper shirts often is too dark to see detail, not so with this one.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
Re: Scary Ride

Considering gumiyo created an account specifically for this entry, and it has yet to be rejected, I suspect this might be Ramy testing the hypothesis that he can't fog an entry without his name attached. This will be interesting to watch regardless. Pass the popcorn, derbies are fun.

move along

L3g3ndQ


quality posts: 2 Private Messages L3g3ndQ
DJTweekNYC wrote:You would like this then. Someone sent me this. I don't know who did it but I guess they tweeted it and it makes me giggle with glee.

http://img684.imageshack.us/i/shirtwoot.png/


ha ha ha ha thats great!!!!!

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
ichimunki wrote:A huge no no? in the ART world? Ha. Not hardly. Maybe in the commercial, Disney-ified we-take-public-domain stories and turn them into our Intellectumal Propitty(TM) world. But in the real art world this sort of thing has been going on for years and years and years. Please to research: Marcel Duchamp. Andy Warhol.


Andy Warhol, like all xerox machines, was never an artist. He was, instead, the reason someone like Ramy can profit at something he has no skill at.

Intellectual property is incredibly important, because it's the basic tenet of respect put into action. If you will use someone else's IP, you have no respect for art, your own or theirs. Art is for all of us to appreciate. It is only for the artist itself to profit from. Fair use exists for the rare artist who can make something truly new and original out of bits and bobs (I would cite a musician like Beck, or serious collage artists, of whom I sadly don't know names but have seen lovely examples). That goes beyond IP. IP itself is vital because no one has a right to profit without skill. I'm sure you'd love to have someone in an office get a raise for commandeering an idea you had. That is what IP exists for. No one should profit off your own ideas except you.

It's an ironic concept to discuss in a piece aping a "designer" who only apes other "artists", but it still applies. It happens in the art world, but only the biggest scum and cheats allow it. It's like any other self-serving way people try to profit without earning said profit.

explodedwhale


quality posts: 5 Private Messages explodedwhale

ramy or not, I still don't want one.

beaterbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beaterbar
AdderXYU wrote:Andy Warhol, like all xerox machines, was never an artist. He was, instead, the reason someone like Ramy can profit at something he has no skill at.

Intellectual property is incredibly important, because it's the basic tenet of respect put into action. If you will use someone else's IP, you have no respect for art, your own or theirs. Art is for all of us to appreciate. It is only for the artist itself to profit from. Fair use exists for the rare artist who can make something truly new and original out of bits and bobs (I would cite a musician like Beck, or serious collage artists, of whom I sadly don't know names but have seen lovely examples). That goes beyond IP. IP itself is vital because no one has a right to profit without skill. I'm sure you'd love to have someone in an office get a raise for commandeering an idea you had. That is what IP exists for. No one should profit off your own ideas except you.

It's an ironic concept to discuss in a piece aping a "designer" who only apes other "artists", but it still applies. It happens in the art world, but only the biggest scum and cheats allow it. It's like any other self-serving way people try to profit without earning said profit.


ugh... your views on art are so nauseating. IP is a 20th century concept invented by the media industry to ensure a flow of unearned profits to talentless corporate executives.

I think this shirt is genius, but sadly it should probably be rejected for being a woot reference/inside woot joke.

sTyLeS


quality posts: 9 Private Messages sTyLeS
j5 wrote:Considering gumiyo created an account specifically for this entry, and it has yet to be rejected, I suspect this might be Ramy testing the hypothesis that he can't fog an entry without his name attached. This will be interesting to watch regardless. Pass the popcorn, derbies are fun.


I agree with this. Especially also considering a first time submitter never responding once to their own thread especially when it's doing fairly decent? Certainly a bit sketch.

gumiyo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gumiyo
Re: Scary Ride


saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.

Oxyminoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Oxyminoan
gumiyo wrote:saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


Wish you would have waited until the Derby was closer to being over. Revealing your master plan is going to skew what otherwise is a pretty brilliant little experiment.

kimvy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kimvy
sTyLeS wrote:There's no process. Anyone with an account can submit a design. And unlike the voting process, you don't even need to have purchased anything before in order to submit something.


Thanks for the info!

bislwem


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bislwem
gumiyo wrote:saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


Since you've invited discussion, I do have a thought... I am sort of disinclined to say that this experiment can really accurately measure these things, since Ramy's style and his name are so irrevocably tied together here. I'm not sure by simply removing the name that you can infer that the votes are because of the style as opposed to even something as simple as the controversy and interest surrounding this entry...

I'm interested to hear what others have to say though.

wcsae


quality posts: 0 Private Messages wcsae
bislwem wrote:Since you've invited discussion, I do have a thought... I am sort of disinclined to say that this experiment can really accurately measure these things, since Ramy's style and his name are so irrevocably tied together here. I'm not sure by simply removing the name that you can infer that the votes are because of the style as opposed to even something as simple as the controversy and interest surrounding this entry...

I'm interested to hear what others have to say though.


I forget exactly, but back aways Woot had a derby where names were removed. Can't remember how exactly that turned out, but it might be worth looking back at it if anyone remembers.

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
gumiyo wrote:
# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?


sooo basically what you are saying is that you plagiarized ramyb to answer some questions and ended up not answering a single one? ...nice job, you managed to sink to a new low and accomplish nothing in the process.

all of your questions can be answered in a very simple way. ramyb isnt the only one who's stuff shoots straight up into the fog. its called a fan base, when you sub something, you send out a broadcast to all your fans and tell them to vote, they then in turn come to the site and vote for your design. that answers why he shoots to the fog, that answers why he wins so much.

as far as the other accounts that have shown up with a similar style, i know of only one other one, i thought that was resolved when the artist and ramy said that they collabed on it and that they are friends with similar styles. i understand that you may not trust ramy so you dont believe anything he says, but that doesn't mean everything he says is a lie and that there has to be some crazy conspiracy theory behind everything. most often the simplest answer is the right one.

mailmanmo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mailmanmo
AdderXYU wrote:Andy Warhol, like all xerox machines, was never an artist. He was, instead, the reason someone like Ramy can profit at something he has no skill at.

Intellectual property is incredibly important, because it's the basic tenet of respect put into action. If you will use someone else's IP, you have no respect for art, your own or theirs. Art is for all of us to appreciate. It is only for the artist itself to profit from. Fair use exists for the rare artist who can make something truly new and original out of bits and bobs (I would cite a musician like Beck, or serious collage artists, of whom I sadly don't know names but have seen lovely examples). That goes beyond IP. IP itself is vital because no one has a right to profit without skill. I'm sure you'd love to have someone in an office get a raise for commandeering an idea you had. That is what IP exists for. No one should profit off your own ideas except you.

It's an ironic concept to discuss in a piece aping a "designer" who only apes other "artists", but it still applies. It happens in the art world, but only the biggest scum and cheats allow it. It's like any other self-serving way people try to profit without earning said profit.


Presumably this is a biting critique of woot?

ichimunki


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ichimunki
AdderXYU wrote:Andy Warhol, like all xerox machines, was never an artist. He was, instead, the reason someone like Ramy can profit at something he has no skill at.


Aaaand. We're done.



ichimunki


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ichimunki
gumiyo wrote:
I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.
...
Now. What do you think.


I think you should have kept quiet. None of your "real discussion" was remotely interesting and was largely irrelevant or petty.

A real artist lets the work speak for itself. Turns out you were experimenting, not making art... oh well.

Your initial image and "Saved" post were brilliantly ambiguous. I nearly voted the shirt simply because the mind game at play here was so intriguing.

Now the only question I have left is who you are. Because if you're an active designer here, I'd like to be able to avoid voting for and/or buying your shirts.

NameyMcName


quality posts: 10 Private Messages NameyMcName
gumiyo wrote:saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


How does test anything? The only thing that looks like his style is the reaper. You didn't even bother coloring the rest of the piece in the same way, and the person doesn't look like ramy's chibi people.

And it's not like people haven't tried to use ramy's style before. This one from the mystery derby comes to mind. http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=32483

Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5
gumiyo wrote:saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


First I'd like to know who the genius who masterminded this experiment. The I'd like to see you pull your "entry".

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
gumiyo wrote:saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


This did answer a few questions:

1. You have way too much time on your hands.

2. The fact that you gave this much time and effort to RamyB makes me think a restraining order is in your past or near future.

3. Considering to complete lack of anything even approaching the scientific method I'd venture to say you're not a scientist.

4. I just wasted 5 minutes I'll never get back reading your "experiment."

beaterbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beaterbar

sadly I agree that your comment has ruined everything and you should now pull the shirt. For one, it is most certainly just a woot reference shirt at this point. Before that, there was some mystique and social commentary. Alas, this is why I largely never read the 'liner notes' or interviews with artists about their work

beaterbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beaterbar
gumiyo wrote:saved.

Welcome to the Ramyb Experiment.

I see there's been much debate about this submission. Now that I have your attention, I'd like to invite real discussion.

Since Woot refuses to publicly reveal how they protect and monitor their website, and they have their obvious reasons, that leaves a Ramyb skeptic with several unverifiable questions. Let's look at them.

# Does Ramyb win by art alone, or is he using fake accounts? That's the main question that a Ramyb skeptic will ask.
> This design definitely didn't get votes from a newsletter, mass emails, fake accounts or shout outs, yet it's relatively high in the votes.

# Does this mean that people genuinely love Ramyb and vote accordingly?
> Either two things are happening. 1... People genuinely love the Ramyb style, or 2... People are "in on the joke" and are voting for it out of sheer entertainment.

Sadly for us Ramyb conspiracy theorists, this experiment does speak well for him winning by sheer style, although it doesn't explain why his designs jump out of the reckoning all the time, like :School: that just won't die. That question remains unanswered and can only be determined by a Woot staff member that can follow buying trends, shipping addresses and so on.

# This design didn't shoot straight to the fog. Does that mean Ramyb does use fake accounts?
> Unfortunately, this also can only be answered by a Woot staff member. It's exasperating when almost every single one of his designs shoots straight to the top. Why does that happen? Maybe this did not fog because it's a Gumiyo, not a Ramyb. Or maybe because it wasn't helped along by fake accounts. We just do not know.

# Why are we seeing new accounts that look exactly like Ramyb, more so than this one.
> Maybe Ramyb is trying to change names and get out of the hate. Maybe there are other artists that are already using the Ramyb style before this submission. We do not know.

# Woot did not reject this for forgery or plagiarism. Does that mean anyone can submit the Ramyb style?
> My assumption is that Woot would encourage you to learn what Wooters like, improve your craft, and design what sells. Cute sells. If cute is not in your skill set, take a chance by designing something more realistic. Otherwise, Woot sells cute. DBH sells big artsy. Teefury sells parody. That's just how it works.

In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


Also, just go to a university campus or some other place where there are a bunch of young people wearing t-shirts. Count the # of woot shirts. Count the # of ramybs. If my experience is correct, the ramyb wearers will be proportional to his total sales suggesting that people like to wear his art and this isn't some vast conspiracy in which he is breaking the bank and buying tons of his own shirts for some bizarre ego trip. While observational, it likely has more validity than this n = 1 experiment.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
beaterbar wrote:Also, just go to a university campus or some other place where there are a bunch of young people wearing t-shirts. Count the # of woot shirts. Count the # of ramybs. If my experience is correct, the ramyb wearers will be proportional to his total sales suggesting that people like to wear his art and this isn't some vast conspiracy in which he is breaking the bank and buying tons of his own shirts for some bizarre ego trip. While observational, it likely has more validity than this n = 1 experiment.


I think it really depends on where you're at. I'm a graduate student at Michigan State and it's not Washington but they buy their fair share usually. I've seen a lot of woot shirts around campus and I've only ever seen one ramy.

beaterbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beaterbar
mrwednesday wrote:I think it really depends on where you're at. I'm a graduate student at Michigan State and it's not Washington but they buy their fair share usually. I've seen a lot of woot shirts around campus and I've only ever seen one ramy.


no doubt there is clustering within regions and schools in terms of preferences. Something like that could come down to typical shirt colors even. I believe that there is research suggesting that university students' color preferences switch depending on their school colors and rival colors. Ramyb rarely prints on green or white. I'd say that between 1/7 to 1/3 of woot shirts I see in Austin Tx are ramyb when I am in largely undergrad areas. Obviously if we care to do a test we will need multiple surveys at multiple schools.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
beaterbar wrote:no doubt there is clustering within regions and schools in terms of preferences. Something like that could come down to typical shirt colors even. I believe that there is research suggesting that university students' color preferences switch depending on their school colors and rival colors. Ramyb rarely prints on green or white. I'd say that between 1/7 to 1/3 of woot shirts I see in Austin Tx are ramyb when I am in largely undergrad areas. Obviously if we care to do a test we will need multiple surveys at multiple schools.


We should meet up at UT and count bunny shirts :D.

Cantatus


quality posts: 6 Private Messages Cantatus
gumiyo wrote:
In summary, while this experiment did not satisfy all my questions, it does make me consider that people genuinely love the Ramyb style, from which he may get most of his votes. Is there any additional funny business behind the scenes? It's certainly uncanny how many Ramyb designs win and stay reckoned.

Now. What do you think.


Let's be realistic here. shirt.woot! is in the business of selling shirts. If Ramyb has some unfair way of getting his shirts tons of votes that wasn't reflective of actual sales, woot! likely would've shut it down ages ago. That's not to say Ramyb might not have some advantage, but since his shirts do sell well, it's not of any significant concern to woot!

His shirts do well in the derbies and they sell well, too. You can judge this by looking at the stats of any of his shirts. Compare his shirts that have been in the Reckoning for one week versus any other shirt in for the same length of time, and you'll see they have roughly the same number of shirts sold:

Minor Modifications by Ramyb - 3268
Spectrum by Ramyb - 2734
Metrognome - 2783
Tea! (2 weeks) - 3458
Books... (2 weeks) - 3647

The point being, if Ramyb's shirts shot to the top purely because of funny business, the stats would reflect that as there wouldn't be buyers for them.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
ichimunki wrote:A huge no no? in the ART world? Ha. Not hardly. Maybe in the commercial, Disney-ified we-take-public-domain stories and turn them into our Intellectumal Propitty(TM) world. But in the real art world this sort of thing has been going on for years and years and years. Please to research: Marcel Duchamp. Andy Warhol.


Oh, come on. You are talking as if all artists' have no personal values, morals or ethics. Even if art thievery only applied to "the commercial world," artist, critics, and many viewers still know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. Granted, I will admit that there are a few "bad seeds," but for the most part, we respect each other as artist as well as ourselves.

Stealing an artist's creation and claiming it as your own in order to make a quick buck is definitely a HUGE no-no in the art world, and I am shocked that someone disagrees...

The "artist" here thinks that the "real discussion" is his poorly planed experiment that proved just about nothing. Really, the Real Discussion here is why did this survive several rounds of rejections before the artist came forward with his/her intentions? This is worst than the World Nomination piece, which supposedly got an artist banned from this site. It worst because we don't have to search high and low to find some random piece of artwork on deviate art... it's right under our noses and we all know it! Why did we ignore it in this case? This is truly concerning to me...


tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

chumpmagic wrote:
Really, the Real Discussion here is why did this survive several rounds of rejections before the artist came forward with his/her intentions?


While this "experiment" looks to be an epic fail on every level, why would it be rejected based off no information about the artist whatsoever? The artist could have been anyone, including the artist that it's referencing who submits weekly at this site. If that's supposed to prove something about the rejection process, it fails much like the rest of this "experiment" because leaving everyone in the dark leaves open the possibility that it's exactly what the person set out to make it look like.

A much better experiment would have been to post in the WoW forum and ask "Can I get honest opinions, no matter how brutal, about why Woot voters may not be voting for my OWN work." That data would have proved much more useful than whatever this is supposed to be. Unfortunately putting your own work to task is much harder than doing it to someone else, but it's also much more rewarding.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
tgentry wrote:While this "experiment" looks to be an epic fail on every level, why would it be rejected based off no information about the artist whatsoever? The artist could have been anyone, including the artist that it's referencing who submits weekly at this site. If that's supposed to prove something about the rejection process, it fails much like the rest of this "experiment" because leaving everyone in the dark leaves open the possibility that it's exactly what the person set out to make it look like.



Well, it is possible. The "thief" and the "victim" could be the same person. If not, then it feels like it breaks the terms and conditions. I thought that made it suitable for rejection/ removal, no? Maybe I read it too "loosely" or chose to define it with my own views unwittingly but...

"12. Artist Representations. Artist represents and warrants that he/she has the right to enter into this Agreement, that the Artwork is original and has not been previously used commercially, and shall not infringe upon or violate any copyright, or any other personal or proprietary right of any kind of any third party. Artist indemnifies Woot, its officers, directors, employees, successors and assigns, against any and all losses, expenses (including attorney’s reasonable fees), or damages arising out of any breach of Artist’s warranties, representations, and obligations hereunder. This paragraph shall survive the expiration or termination of this Agreement for any reason."

Feel free to fill me in if there is something I am not understanding, overlooking, or possible making overcomplicated. Specifically, the part that states: "any other personal or proprietary right of any kind"


tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

chumpmagic wrote:Well, it is possible. The "thief" and the "victim" could be the same person. If not, then it feels like it breaks the terms and conditions. I thought that made is suitable for rejection/ removal, no? Maybe I read it too "loosely" or our chose to define it with my own views but...

"12. Artist Representations. Artist represents and warrants that he/she has the right to enter into this Agreement, that the Artwork is original and has not been previously used commercially, and shall not infringe upon or violate any copyright, or any other personal or proprietary right of any kind of any third party. Artist indemnifies Woot, its officers, directors, employees, successors and assigns, against any and all losses, expenses (including attorney’s reasonable fees), or damages arising out of any breach of Artist’s warranties, representations, and obligations hereunder. This paragraph shall survive the expiration or termination of this Agreement for any reason."

Feel free to fill me in if there is something I am not understanding, overlooking, or possible making overcomplicated. Specifically, the part that states: "any other personal or proprietary right of any kind"


If Ramyb decided he wanted to submit under gumiyo from here on out, there's nothing in what you just posted that would stop him, or anyone else, from doing just that. Or, as happens often, one artist teams up with another and they create a new account to sub their collaborative designs. Until the "actual" Gumiyo came forward with their "big reveal" there was no evidence of any kind that what you just posted had been violated, was there? So that answers your question as to why it wasn't rejected until Gumiyo came forward.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
tgentry wrote:If Ramyb decided he wanted to submit under gumiyo from here on out, there's nothing in what you just posted that would stop him, or anyone else, from doing just that. Or, as happens often, one artist teams up with another and they create a new account to sub their collaborative designs. Until the "actual" Gumiyo came forward with their "big reveal" there was no evidence of any kind that what you just posted had been violated, was there? So that answers your question as to why it wasn't rejected until Gumiyo came forward.


Yes. Thank you for your time and thank you for answering my question (on a sunday as well as a holiday to boot!). I know I am being kind of an a-hole, but intentionally, blatantly lifting another persons artwork is something that I just can't sit back and ignore. I hope you understand.

And I do understand that people have the right to change their username. I know deadfrog did it, and there was no issue there. I guess since people have been doing a lot of mockery toward the artist lately, and since the kid was a little off-style, I just assume it wasn't him from the get-go. You were correct to wait though; a username change was a possibility here.

Again, thanks and sorry.


AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
beaterbar wrote:ugh... your views on art are so nauseating. IP is a 20th century concept invented by the media industry to ensure a flow of unearned profits to talentless corporate executives.

I think this shirt is genius, but sadly it should probably be rejected for being a woot reference/inside woot joke.


Your definition of genius colours your prior opinion quite well.

The fact of the matter is that Intellectual Property, used properly, undermines exactly what you note. It means that a greedy corporate exec cannot use my work simply because they have the publishing power. It means that, while the original creator of World Nom-ination is not remotely as "popular" as sekiyoku is (I wish I could say was, but no one should believe anyone cares she cheated, sadly), and not as powerful as woot, they were able to leverage the site to protect their creation. It's why Todd Goldman is so hounded by much smaller artists who created his products before he stole them and made a fortune off them.

If anything, it is the idea of fair use and copyright expiration which keeps the fat cats getting fatter. Sure, there are sketchy publishers and executives. It is for the artist to avoid a situation like the Beatles' catalog being stolen out from under them and sold to Michael Jackson, who outbid Paul McCartney for his own songs. That's an abuse outside of IP. But without it, we get this: We have publishers who put out a new version of Great Expectations every five years, because they don't have to pay for it. We have the New South edition of Huck Finn. In our lifetimes, we will see people able to re-record "What's Goin' On" or "Tommy" or "Revolver" in its entirety and profit off other people's work. We already see this in major labels when artists have signed their rights away. That's the artist's fault as much as the greed of the label. But every artist who ignores Glee or Idol's requests for talentless nitwits to re-record their songs, that is the power of owning your own work. Every artist who sues when a commercial snags their work against their will, that's what IP is meant to protect. It is ostensibly there for the artists' defense. Greedy people abuse everything. That does not put what they abuse at fault, but puts their greed and abuse at fault.

In the art world, consider the print. I can print Starry Night. It's not mine. How much money do you think I'd make selling prints of Van Gogh's most popular painting? How about prints of Michelangelo's work in the Sistine Chapel? The Last Supper? Should I be allowed to profit off masterworks that are not mine? So what's the extrapolation for the modern artist? When the copyright expires, who's got the claim to the artist's work: the family of the genius, or anyone with a quick, efficient and cheap printing press? What family could preserve their ancestor's legacy themselves against the super rich and super greedy? IP fights to give the artist the final say, even though the greed and power of corporations make that fight as impossible as possible.

I'm not 100% sure why anyone would be mad at Disney or George Lucas or people like that for refusing to let people use their characters. I refuse to let people use my computer. It's mine. IP is no different. Disney should be the one making mint off Disney forever. Its his work. And surely he has any number of sketchy bits in his empire's building, and surely he is a dramatic example of defending one's own IP, but who deserves Bambi more than the guy who made it? Suggesting otherwise suggests that the suggester (whoa, mindwarp) wants to profit off that product. Where is the honor in such a position that would make anyone care what such a person wanted?

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
AdderXYU wrote:
I'm not 100% sure why anyone would be mad at Disney or George Lucas or people like that for refusing to let people use their characters. I refuse to let people use my computer. It's mine. IP is no different. Disney should be the one making mint off Disney forever. Its his work. And surely he has any number of sketchy bits in his empire's building, and surely he is a dramatic example of defending one's own IP, but who deserves Bambi more than the guy who made it? Suggesting otherwise suggests that the suggester (whoa, mindwarp) wants to profit off that product. Where is the honor in such a position that would make anyone care what such a person wanted?

Last I heard, Walt was still dead.

move along

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
j5 wrote:Last I heard, Walt was still dead.


not to mention that he didn't create mickey, someone who worked for him did...he did make bambi either, people who worked for him made it.

scfrome


quality posts: 1 Private Messages scfrome

So where is Ramyb's entry this derby?

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
tgentry wrote:A much better experiment would have been to post in the WoW forum and ask "Can I get honest opinions, no matter how brutal, about why Woot voters may not be voting for my OWN work." That data would have proved much more useful than whatever this is supposed to be. Unfortunately putting your own work to task is much harder than doing it to someone else, but it's also much more rewarding.


So now that there's a precedent, can ramy and everyone else pandering the same old crap over and over get rejected on a weekly basis too? The derby really would be a much better place if people were forced to improve their work.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
megsck wrote:not to mention that he didn't create mickey, someone who worked for him did...he did make bambi either, people who worked for him made it.


And to the other side, one could argue that because Harrison Ford played Han Solo, he owns Han Solo.

There are obvious reasons why you should not work as an artist for a company. You sign away any ideas which may be profitable. But you also go into it saying "hey, I'm making this for Disney," or "I'm making this for Warner Bros" or "I'm making this for Fuzzy Door," and by selling your soul to that company, your work becomes theirs, not yours. It's not "right," but it's how it goes. It's not like there's no credit given for the person who came up with Mickey.

There is also the issue of adaptation. You can't adapt visual to visual without making things dramatically different. You certainly can adapt book-to-film and put your own stamp on it. In the case of Bambi, the story rights were secured at the time of production. In the case of numerous other Disney works, no copyright would have been applicable. Again, is it right for a source to be buried? Does an animation company operate honorably by relegating their animators to brief references? It's a moot point. Just as Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings required actual builders who will never be properly acknowledged, but who signed on to build, not to get credit for the building, so too does every animation studio have grunts who have signed on to be grunts. So too does Nabisco have someone to design their Oreo packages who will never be seen. Art by committee boils down to that. The ethics of that sort of situation can be debated to high heaven, but it doesn't change the fact that Disney, as a company, owns Disney property. Sure, Disney also tries to own Non-Disney property, but that doesn't change the fact that Mickey Mouse is owned by Disney, and therefore, the only person who has a shred of claim to the character besides Disney is the man who created him. Outside of a damn strong parody (in the actual terms of parody, as opposed to "slapping mickey mouse on the death star for some reason"), there is no justification for using a Disney character. You're either stealing from the rightful owners, or you're perpetuating a continued theft against the true creators, depending on how you look at it.

The corporation-as-artist is a completely different argument, and one that doesn't apply to woot directly, since woot always makes their artists clear, and gives a justifiable wage to their artists. Artists don't design for Woot. There's no woot company headquarters where all these artists are sketching and sketching until they hit on a geeky enough or ugly enough tee. They are offering their own work for their own credit, and it remains their work when and if it is rejected for print, and it remains their work even if it is accepted for print, despite woot gaining the print rights. IP boils down to, someone owns each piece of art. It should always start with the creator itself. If that creator sells their creation, whether through a contract that strips them of rights or a flat out sale of rights, it is owned by the new owner of the rights. And so on. And while one can argue that Joe Rightbuyer should have no right to the profit off someone else's art, anyone other than the creator and joe rightbuyer has even less right to it. It's the same way that Ramy, despite mooching his style off a million shoddy otaku worldwide, isn't fair game for someone else to mooch off either, without a legitimate statement being made.

It's a sticky and convoluted world, this whole art game, but there should be no question on the very basics: if it ain't yours to use, don't use it. And that's what's being done here.

emmaoforange


quality posts: 2 Private Messages emmaoforange
AdderXYU wrote:You're either stealing from the rightful owners, or you're perpetuating a continued theft against the true creators, depending on how you look at it.
.


Well put.

lunadust12


quality posts: 1 Private Messages lunadust12
scfrome wrote:So where is Ramyb's entry this derby?


i think he's tied up in gumiyo's basement

utterdamnnonsense


quality posts: 0 Private Messages utterdamnnonsense
bassanimation wrote:We should meet up at UT and count bunny shirts :D.


XD
...and then print the results on a t-shirt...

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
mrwednesday wrote:So now that there's a precedent, can ramy and everyone else pandering the same old crap over and over get rejected on a weekly basis too? The derby really would be a much better place if people were forced to improve their work.


How does one quantify "same old crap" and "improve their work."

The derby is a fairly simple concept....submit your design [following the guidelines] and let people vote. It is what it is.

capedcrusader514


quality posts: 1 Private Messages capedcrusader514
megsck wrote:not to mention that he didn't create mickey, someone who worked for him did...he did make bambi either, people who worked for him made it.


I'm fairly certain Disney actually did make Mickey atleast in the form of Steamboat Willie...

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
capedcrusader514 wrote:I'm fairly certain Disney actually did make Mickey atleast in the form of Steamboat Willie...


I could swear I watched a black and white video of Walt drawing Mickey Mouse. I remember this because it was creepy...

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
capedcrusader514 wrote:I'm fairly certain Disney actually did make Mickey atleast in the form of Steamboat Willie...


Ub Iwerks actually made mickey, walt disney has drawn him before like many other artists at disney and everywhere else. but the original character design was made by Ub Iwerks.

pandase


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pandase
bassanimation wrote:We should meet up at UT and count bunny shirts :D.


Now that would be entertaining, but where would be the best place?
(my vote is for the turtle pond :D)

npromero


quality posts: 0 Private Messages npromero
megsck wrote:Ub Iwerks actually made mickey, walt disney has drawn him before like many other artists at disney and everywhere else. but the original character design was made by Ub Iwerks.


Hmm... all this rings a bell, but I was up at the Disney Family Museum in San Francisco this past weekend and there was an area that showed the transition from Oswald to Mickey. It was pretty sweet, they had what what is the first known sketch of Mickey on display.

Im a bit a Disney geek-tard and was too overwhelmed by all the amazing magic that was going on around me to notice who they credited, but I dont think/remember if was Ub Iwerks... gerr for my Disney ADD and not paying attention.

Oh well guess Ill just have to go back up, I love that place anyways.

I know I didn't help the conversation but I had to chime in.



cdrewlow


quality posts: 9 Private Messages cdrewlow
AdderXYU wrote:Just as Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings required actual builders who will never be properly acknowledged, but who signed on to build, not to get credit for the building, so too does every animation studio have grunts who have signed on to be grunts.


What about his drafters? We drafters never get any credit.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
AdderXYU wrote:In the case of numerous other Disney works, no copyright would have been applicable.
.
.
.
.
The ethics of that sort of situation can be debated to high heaven, but it doesn't change the fact that Disney, as a company, owns Disney property. Sure, Disney also tries to own Non-Disney property, but that doesn't change the fact that Mickey Mouse is owned by Disney, and therefore, the only person who has a shred of claim to the character besides Disney is the man who created him.

Oh! The irony! Profiteering off of works in the public domain while lobbying hard to avoid contributing to it.

move along

jessibot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jessibot
lunadust12 wrote:i think he's tied up in gumiyo's basement


Nice. XD

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
npromero wrote:Hmm... all this rings a bell, but I was up at the Disney Family Museum in San Francisco this past weekend and there was an area that showed the transition from Oswald to Mickey. It was pretty sweet, they had what what is the first known sketch of Mickey on display.

Im a bit a Disney geek-tard and was too overwhelmed by all the amazing magic that was going on around me to notice who they credited, but I dont think/remember if was Ub Iwerks... gerr for my Disney ADD and not paying attention.

Oh well guess Ill just have to go back up, I love that place anyways.

I know I didn't help the conversation but I had to chime in.


It was Ub Iwerks, Disney admits it, its not really a mystery. He drew the character and Walt made the personality. He tried cute drawings of several animals before he found mickey based on some other guys drawings of mice, and he pretty much has oswalds body because Walt was probably still a bit miffed about loosing that character to universal. I'm an animator, so i've learned a bunch from school as well as just personal interest, even though im still a bigger warner fan than a disney fan ;) go bugs!

megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
cdrewlow wrote:What about his drafters? We drafters never get any credit.


also, animators are given credit...in the credits...that is what they are there for =)

profbrendan


quality posts: 7 Private Messages profbrendan
megsck wrote:It was Ub Iwerks, Disney admits it, its not really a mystery. He drew the character and Walt made the personality. He tried cute drawings of several animals before he found mickey based on some other guys drawings of mice, and he pretty much has oswalds body because Walt was probably still a bit miffed about loosing that character to universal. I'm an animator, so i've learned a bunch from school as well as just personal interest, even though im still a bigger warner fan than a disney fan ;) go bugs!

Mickey's design also fell into the style that was being used back in those early days of really simple silhouettes and shapes with very basic musculature, due to the animation process being so new and relatively immature. He's pretty close to Felix the Cat, who debuted a good nine years prior in 1919, as well as Bosko and Bimbo, both of whom were created very shortly after Mickey. What really set him apart from the rest was, as you mentioned, the personality that Walt gave him. Without that to engage the audiences, he could've easily fallen to the wayside along with so many of early animation's characters.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
pandase wrote:Now that would be entertaining, but where would be the best place?
(my vote is for the turtle pond :D)


If you take peanuts and throw them, the turtles will eat them! UT is awesome, all the animals come right up to you because they're so used to people. The squirrels and pigeons will just come sit on you and eat your snacks :D.

dreamwootseeker


quality posts: 2 Private Messages dreamwootseeker
otpsac wrote:
Joking aside, the only good thing about this design is that it somehow mercifully stopped Ramby from submitting his death/rabbit/penguin shirt design this week. So thank you whoever you are.


Amen to that!!

cdrewlow


quality posts: 9 Private Messages cdrewlow
megsck wrote:also, animators are given credit...in the credits...that is what they are there for =)


Lucky! All I get are my initials next to a revision note.

leprechaungirl


quality posts: 2 Private Messages leprechaungirl
AdderXYU wrote:And to the other side, one could argue that because Harrison Ford played Han Solo, he owns Han Solo.

There are obvious reasons why you should not work as an artist for a company. You sign away any ideas which may be profitable. But you also go into it saying "hey, I'm making this for Disney," or "I'm making this for Warner Bros" or "I'm making this for Fuzzy Door," and by selling your soul to that company, your work becomes theirs, not yours. It's not "right," but it's how it goes. It's not like there's no credit given for the person who came up with Mickey.

There is also the issue of adaptation. You can't adapt visual to visual without making things dramatically different. You certainly can adapt book-to-film and put your own stamp on it. In the case of Bambi, the story rights were secured at the time of production. In the case of numerous other Disney works, no copyright would have been applicable. Again, is it right for a source to be buried? Does an animation company operate honorably by relegating their animators to brief references? It's a moot point. Just as Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings required actual builders who will never be properly acknowledged, but who signed on to build, not to get credit for the building, so too does every animation studio have grunts who have signed on to be grunts. So too does Nabisco have someone to design their Oreo packages who will never be seen. Art by committee boils down to that. The ethics of that sort of situation can be debated to high heaven, but it doesn't change the fact that Disney, as a company, owns Disney property. Sure, Disney also tries to own Non-Disney property, but that doesn't change the fact that Mickey Mouse is owned by Disney, and therefore, the only person who has a shred of claim to the character besides Disney is the man who created him. Outside of a damn strong parody (in the actual terms of parody, as opposed to "slapping mickey mouse on the death star for some reason"), there is no justification for using a Disney character. You're either stealing from the rightful owners, or you're perpetuating a continued theft against the true creators, depending on how you look at it.

The corporation-as-artist is a completely different argument, and one that doesn't apply to woot directly, since woot always makes their artists clear, and gives a justifiable wage to their artists. Artists don't design for Woot. There's no woot company headquarters where all these artists are sketching and sketching until they hit on a geeky enough or ugly enough tee. They are offering their own work for their own credit, and it remains their work when and if it is rejected for print, and it remains their work even if it is accepted for print, despite woot gaining the print rights. IP boils down to, someone owns each piece of art. It should always start with the creator itself. If that creator sells their creation, whether through a contract that strips them of rights or a flat out sale of rights, it is owned by the new owner of the rights. And so on. And while one can argue that Joe Rightbuyer should have no right to the profit off someone else's art, anyone other than the creator and joe rightbuyer has even less right to it. It's the same way that Ramy, despite mooching his style off a million shoddy otaku worldwide, isn't fair game for someone else to mooch off either, without a legitimate statement being made.

It's a sticky and convoluted world, this whole art game, but there should be no question on the very basics: if it ain't yours to use, don't use it. And that's what's being done here.


So I've been trolling around this site for awhile now and I've certainly read quite a few of the Ramy threads (mostly because I like to watch the drama unfold ;D )and I have to say that these days I'm more inclined to agree with the Ramy nay-sayers. This little experiment was pretty ridiculous and it wasn't even that much of and experiment... in fact I'm not sure it should be called that. So I agree with tgentry... Epic Fail!

Now, Adder you're probably wondering why I replied to you Mostly it's because I'm extremely curious about what you do for a living. I have this weird feeling that you should be an Opinions Columnist... don't know why I'd get that vibe just had this odd thought that you'd be good at it. :D

genericsmith


quality posts: 15 Private Messages genericsmith
bassanimation wrote:If you take peanuts and throw them, the turtles will eat them! UT is awesome, all the animals come right up to you because they're so used to people. The squirrels and pigeons will just come sit on you and eat your snacks :D.


That'd be awesome!

Squirrels are pretty much my favorite mammal... I think I might have to take a road trip.

I'm sure there are other things to do... you know... besides being the weird squirrel feeding guy.

Munchy Attack If you can find the name of this artist & real song title I'll buy you a daily woot shirt (your choice what day)

Dystopia Dark Lager, Where the Wild Parties at?, B.A. Bearacus, and many more wanted in XXL(PLEASE!!!)
Edgar Allen Poe shall remained headlock'd until Nevermore is reckoned.

npromero


quality posts: 0 Private Messages npromero
megsck wrote:even though im still a bigger warner fan than a disney fan ;) go bugs!


Them be fight'n words little missy. ;P

But seriously how can you not love the classics.

For any one of you lilly livered bow legged varmits care teh slap leather with me, in case any of ya get any idears, ya better know yer dealin with. I'm tha' hootiness, tootiness, shootiness bob tailed wild cat in the west. I'm tha' fastest gun north, south, east, andddd west of tha' pecos. - Yosemite Sam
I mean look at thim


Or here are some of the Disney's American Legends.

I miss the old animated days. Not that I don't like the cartoons now, just not as much.



megsck


quality posts: 6 Private Messages megsck
npromero wrote:Them be fight'n words little missy. ;P

But seriously how can you not love the classics.

For any one of you lilly livered bow legged varmits care teh slap leather with me, in case any of ya get any idears, ya better know yer dealin with. I'm tha' hootiness, tootiness, shootiness bob tailed wild cat in the west. I'm tha' fastest gun north, south, east, andddd west of tha' pecos. - Yosemite Sam
I mean look at thim


Or here are some of the Disney's American Legends.

I miss the old animated days. Not that I don't like the cartoons now, just not as much.


^^^ quality post!

they just dont make em' like they used to unfortunately. im just glad i got to grow up with it, i feel bad for the kids growing up today without old school bugs bunny to look up to. =) the crazy thing, is that there are tons of those old school animators around still and even more new animators that are just as good that could do it, but making those types of animations is just way too time consuming and expensive for TV to give them a shot. cg and flash is all the craze now because its cheap and fast. In TV hardly anyone hand draws animation anymore, and even then they dont fully animate everything in the us. there is some hope, however, that hand drawn full animation is coming back atleast in feature film, so go out and support any hand drawn animated films when they come out!!

Th-th-th-that's all, folks! ;)

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