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saved

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Love it!

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Yeah very cool design +1

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Hmmm...I dunno. From a distance, his helmet looks a little too penisy.

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He's holding the hot end....asbestos gloves?

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I'm just not feelin' it. Although I like me a good Star Wars tee, the body proportions don't feel right, even for a cartoony version of Vader. That and the helmet and lightsaber are just too far off.

Plus some one said the helmet looks vaguely phallic and now I can't unsee it. =(

As my dad would say, it needs one more rewrite.

bluejester wrote:I'm just not feelin' it. Although I like me a good Star Wars tee, the body proportions don't feel right, even for a cartoony version of Vader. That and the helmet and lightsaber are just too far off.

Plus some one said the helmet looks vaguely phallic and now I can't unsee it. =(

As my dad would say, it needs one more rewrite.

Er, I'm not sure about this but it looks more like a spoof of the "Spaceballs" version of Vader, Dark Helmet. Of course this could still just be odd proportions but thinking of him as that version makes it sort of work for me. =D

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Man ramyb, this is one of the best ideas you have put up in a while. However, before I am willing to vote for it you need to change on thing. Darth's foot is behind the table, yet his cloak is in front of it. Unless this is MC Escher's classroom, it make him look like he's floating.

Shadowhunter312 wrote:Unless this is MC Escher's classroom, it make him look like he's floating.

I lol'd. But truth. The chair also looks somewhat out of place, considering the relative lack of room between the desk and the chalkboard and how little under the desk the chair is...But perhaps that's just me. Interesting idea, but ehh...I guess I'm just picky when it comes to Star Wars shirts, considering how often it's used.

DianaSprinkle wrote:Er, I'm not sure about this but it looks more like a spoof of the "Spaceballs" version of Vader, Dark Helmet. Of course this could still just be odd proportions but thinking of him as that version makes it sort of work for me. =D

I dunno, I guess it's just there are other aspects that I feel would really add to this design that are missing. I'd like to see a room full of stormtrooper classmen maybe. I guess that the body proportion thing can be a matter of taste. I know that I really felt that the zombie people needing coffee design he put up a while ago didn't work because of the way that the people looked, but many people did vote for it.


Ah well, I guess Vader just looks too off for my tastes though, I really want to see that iconic skull face thing.

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Awesome :]

Shadowhunter312 wrote:However, before I am willing to vote for it you need to change on thing. Darth's foot is behind the table, yet his cloak is in front of it. Unless this is MC Escher's classroom, it make him look like he's floating.

His long orangutan-arm notwithstanding, don't count on anything getting tweaked or edited. Ramy doesn't do that. Ever. In the history of ever.

Ramy, I realize that you totally don't care, but if you took your time and learned some damn anatomy, and also made an effort not to throw something together slapdash and toss some shiny on it, you'd be a better artist. Significantly better.

What you do every week is hand in a rough draft.

DianaSprinkle wrote:Er, I'm not sure about this but it looks more like a spoof of the "Spaceballs" version of Vader, Dark Helmet. Of course this could still just be odd proportions but thinking of him as that version makes it sort of work for me. =D

I though this thing exactly. My eye caught Vader before the Deathstar and I was SO disappointed it was not a diagram of a giant vacuum. Resubmit with Dark Helmet & Spaceballs reference.

juliaL719 wrote:His long orangutan-arm notwithstanding, don't count on anything getting tweaked or edited. Ramy doesn't do that. Ever. In the history of ever.

Ramy, I realize that you totally don't care, but if you took your time and learned some damn anatomy, and also made an effort not to throw something together slapdash and toss some shiny on it, you'd be a better artist. Significantly better.

What you do every week is hand in a rough draft.

Oh, I know that. But maybe if people keep telling him what he could improve on he'll eventually wake up one morning and go "My goodness! Most of my shirts have awful proprotion and perspective! To the Ramyb Cave!"

I want to like his style, but his easy to see errors if he double checked would make it much easier.

Shadowhunter312 wrote:"My goodness! Most of my shirts have awful proprotion and perspective! To the Ramyb Cave!"

"My goodness! Most of my shirts have awful proportion and perspective! Yet somehow they still sell and net me a tidy sum of profit! To the RamyB couch where I'll sit down and not fix mistakes!"

Shadowhunter312 wrote:Darth's foot is behind the table, yet his cloak is in front of it. Unless this is MC Escher's classroom, it make him look like he's floating.

Exactly.

bluejester wrote:I'm just not feelin' it. Although I like me a good Star Wars tee, the body proportions don't feel right, even for a cartoony version of Vader. That and the helmet and lightsaber are just too far off.

Plus some one said the helmet looks vaguely phallic and now I can't unsee it. =(

As my dad would say, it needs one more rewrite.

compare

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why's stewie so tall ;)

j5 wrote:compare

the level of distortion in "Aimier" is internally consistent; the distortion in ramy's entry here is not. basic cartooning 101.

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i sink it is a pointer, not a light saber... see the joints, like one of those expandable metal pointers?

bluejester wrote:I dunno, I guess it's just there are other aspects that I feel would really add to this design that are missing. I'd like to see a room full of stormtrooper classmen maybe.

Or Jedis or even small kids since he is a substitute. But I agree, it feels like it is missing something. Sure he has an apple and a chalkboard, but it doesn't scream school to me.

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Look a little bit like Cobra Commander

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THIS HAS TO WIN!!!

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Seems a little busy to me. I like the idea, but not the execution.

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This makes no sense at all aside from trying to make money ripping off Darth Vader. At least Cell Division is a pun.

Shadowhunter312 wrote:Man ramyb, this is one of the best ideas you have put up in a while. However, before I am willing to vote for it you need to change on thing. Darth's foot is behind the table, yet his cloak is in front of it. Unless this is MC Escher's classroom, it make him look like he's floating.

Wow, good call. I can't overlook that now- it would drive me nuts.

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Can't stop chuckling!

bluetuba wrote:This makes no sense at all aside from trying to make money ripping off Darth Vader. At least Cell Division is a pun.

Yeah, there's really nothing inherently funny about Darth Vader being a teacher. It could just as easily be the Shredder or Lex Luthor or Anton Chigurh or whatever 'famous, scary bad guy' you want to substitute. There's no context in these characters' history that makes them being a teacher particularly ironically hilarious.

j5 wrote:compare

As some one else said, the basic thing here with your example is that the exaggeration on the body structure is uniform. I actually own the shirt pictured there because I liked the bobbleheaded look that the characters had in that design.

I'm not trying to sound like I'm boarding the Ramyb hate train here (and jeez does it ever get full fast, but the good news is that there are always tickets available)--just saying that this is like that TMNT reference shirt he did with the four-headed turltle. It was so glaringly sloppy it was annoying. Generally when Ramyb is in his wheelhouse groove, he makes wearable shirts. I know that this isn't popular to say among a portion of the populace of woot, but it is true. I am not saying that this means that they are the greatest thing ever though. That said, this design just makes me cringe to think that it might print, because it is one of those ones that when people get it, they'll be terribly disappointed at how noticeable the mistakes are.

Of late, even Ramyb's winning, wearable entries feel too bland/generic. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: I can totally see this as something that would be for sale on any Target or Walmart shelf. Not trying to sound mean here, and please don't hand me the ticket for the train just yet. I just feel that even I would vote for this shirt if it weren't for the mistakes.

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Totally neutral guy coming into the discussion here, but is it just me, or is the bottom left corner of the cape oddly cut off? Surely that wasn't intentional?

Shadowhunter312 wrote:Man ramyb, this is one of the best ideas you have put up in a while. However, before I am willing to vote for it you need to change on thing. Darth's foot is behind the table, yet his cloak is in front of it. Unless this is MC Escher's classroom, it make him look like he's floating.

To me, it looks like he took a step back, and his cape snagged on the table.

The rest of the "mistakes" pointed out, however, just look like mistakes to me.

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As a teacher I find this t-shirt hilarious!

jcadieux wrote:As a teacher I find this t-shirt hilarious!

As a teacher I find this shirt has neither rhyme nor reason. As someone mentioned earlier, there is no context for the character that allows this shirt to make sense. It is just a "stick a pop culture reference in a different place" shirt. Bleh.

mafafu888 wrote:As a teacher I find this shirt has neither rhyme nor reason. As someone mentioned earlier, there is no context for the character that allows this shirt to make sense. It is just a "stick a pop culture reference in a different place" shirt. Bleh.

This teacher agrees with you.

At this point, you have to wonder if people vote for Ramy shirts solely because it is a Ramy shirt and not because of the design.

It is like people buying Axe products. They don't buy it because of the quality, but because of the name recognition.

arek920 wrote:At this point, you have to wonder if people vote for Ramy shirts solely because it is a Ramy shirt and not because of the design.

It is like people buying Axe products. They don't buy it because of the quality, but because of the name recognition.

Take out the "at this point" part of my statement above. I forgot that this was going on even before I left the site (and the net for the most part) for a year+ for school.

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You know, I knew I'd seen that wonky bent arm before... Holding a light saber, too.

Star Rats, by RamyB.

http://shirt.woot.com/derby/entry.aspx?id=39088

Please, please learn how arms and proportions work. Pandering aside, that's the part about this which bugs me most.

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I agree with the general trend of comments here; If it was put into better context with Stormtroopers/Jedi etc. it would make sense, but as it is, it's just a pop culture figure as a teacher, which makes it weak. And the proportions are slightly 'fun house mirror'.

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I'm missing the "No Star Wars" rule already.

I love Star Wars as much as the next obsessive geek-boy (as my toy collection will attest), but I guess I'm something of a purist. I've got nothing against a good Star Wars reference, but at least make it a solid, clever, marginally thought-out reference, rather than just tacking on a Lucas character to try and make a quick buck off of someone else's brain-child.

(And no, this isn't a Ramyb bashing comment ... there are plenty of artists guilty of the same thing, imho.)

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Very nice work. I hope this shirt prints.

erina7262 wrote:Hmmm...I dunno. From a distance, his helmet looks a little too penisy.

Really? Can anything REALLY be too penisy??

endangeredomega wrote:I'm missing the "No Star Wars" rule already.

I love Star Wars as much as the next obsessive geek-boy (as my toy collection will attest), but I guess I'm something of a purist. I've got nothing against a good Star Wars reference, but at least make it a solid, clever, marginally thought-out reference, rather than just tacking on a Lucas character to try and make a quick buck off of someone else's brain-child.

(And no, this isn't a Ramyb bashing comment ... there are plenty of artists guilty of the same thing, imho.)

Much agreed on both points.

tripperfunster wrote:Really? Can anything REALLY be too penisy??

Bahahahahahahahahaha

bakerface22 wrote:Love it!

+1

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my calculus teacher so would have done this. He was a huge Star Wars fan. The first day we did derivatives, he gave us the problem: "find the derivate of (r^3)/3 + (d^3)/3....Answer: r^2 + d^2.

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He should probably make sure his class is fully comfortable with the ABC's before teaching them techniques of calculus.

profbrendan wrote:"My goodness! Most of my shirts have awful proportion and perspective! Yet somehow they still sell and net me a tidy sum of profit! To the RamyB couch where I'll sit down and not fix mistakes!"

Game. Set. Match.
If you don't like it, design something that will get more votes.

All this shows is that wooters are totally sucked in by any star wars reference just because it's star wars. It doesn't matter if it totally sucks or not. They'll vote.

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It's interesting how everyone complains on all of ramyb's designs, but they always make it up into the fog...

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Love it ... Need one for my son

mafafu888 wrote:As a teacher I find this shirt has neither rhyme nor reason. As someone mentioned earlier, there is no context for the character that allows this shirt to make sense. It is just a "stick a pop culture reference in a different place" shirt. Bleh.

Oh, I'm not so sure about the "no teacher" part. Wasn't Vader's primary goal to rise up and slay the Emperor and then train Luke in the Dark Side? Looks to me like Luke needs "Basic Mathematics of Giant Super-weapon Construction"

logicalcupcake wrote:It's interesting how everyone complains on all of ramyb's designs, but they always make it up into the fog...

It's because of how many drones Ramy pulls in from his deviant art that don't even comment. They just upvote his stuff.

capitalsown wrote:It's because of how many drones Ramy pulls in from his deviant art that don't even comment. They just upvote his stuff.

It's amazing how I managed to do that considering my total inactivity on the site in the past year and a half and the fact that I have never even mentioned woot there even once. Good work Nancy Drew.

Thanks to everyone who enjoyed the shirt and voted

ramyb wrote:It's amazing how I managed to do that considering my total inactivity on the site in the past year and a half and the fact that I have never even mentioned woot there even once. Good work Nancy Drew.

Thanks to everyone who enjoyed the shirt and voted

Are you ever planning to address the legitimate artistic criticism you've received?

Like, ever?

I really don't care about your past, dog. Not anymore. I'm just wondering why you're consistently lazy about your own art.

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Well, it actually might be the end of the world.. I am going to vote for and most likely buy a Ramyb shirt.

Great idea.

juliaL719 wrote:Are you ever planning to address the legitimate artistic criticism you've received?

Like, ever?

I really don't care about your past, dog. Not anymore. I'm just wondering why you're consistently lazy about your own art.

I read the comments and thought about them but I don't necessarily agree with all or most of them. I'm not sure what about this design implies laziness, considering it took the entire day on Thursday to complete. Penis hat? really? It is extremely frustrating to have put a lot of effort into something then have it called a "rough draft" considering the level of polished it is. There were several intentional decisions I made where I sacrificed realism for clarity, which I think is totally fine in the cartooning world. I'm not sure why this, of all the entries in the derby, is the one that is considered the worst in internal anatomical consistency or the one with orangutan arms considering some of the other entries, especially some of those in the fog.

The visual impact of the design is exactly what I wanted it to be, so I didn't want to make any changes and disrupt that. Ultimately I will not please everyone, so I can only decide based on what I believe myself. Could someone else make improvements to the design? Potentially, but given the limitations of my skillset I am pleased with the results and find a lot of the criticism of this design to be overly harsh and unwarranted. If you actually cared about my personal improvement then I might take what you have to say into consideration more often, but when your goal in commenting is to convince others not to vote it is easier to ignore, even if there is value in what you are saying.

To be clear, before my words get twisted, I'm not saying every piece of criticism that I have received, either on this or in the past, has been overly harsh or unwarranted. A lot of what has been said to me I have taken into account and worked on for future derbies. It may be hard for you to believe, but I spend a great deal of time obsessing over minor details for several hours after finishing a design. Much of that time is spent trying to correct the types of mistakes that people have brought up to me in the past. Unfortunately, since you don't get to see the actual rough draft, you have no point of comparison and you can just continue to assume that I don't care about my work. That's your call, I won't be able to change your mind, especially since our ideas of visual appeal strongly conflict and I have no intention of changing mine just to appease you.

ramyb wrote:Edited for length

::shrug:: I do commissioned tattoo art.

If I can't get it right, if I can't get the anatomy at least vaguely accurate, I don't hand it over.

I cartoon too. Proportion is the bane of my existence. I'm not happy about it. So I picked up an anatomy book.

It's a struggle.

What you should do, if you actually DO want people to think that what you've handed in is the final draft, is pull your entry, fix the problems, and resubmit. People do that all the time here.

I'm an English teacher, and if I get an essay the day it's due, but there's a ton of things that are really bothering me, I give it back to the student, ungraded, and give them another day, with a small lateness penalty. Losing 3 points off what could be an A essay is a lot better than getting the B and shrugging and saying "well, at least it was in on time."

juliaL719 wrote:::shrug:: I do commissioned tattoo art.

If I can't get it right, if I can't get the anatomy at least vaguely accurate, I don't hand it over.

Well, your art is going to be indelibly applied to the customer's skin. If I decide later that I don't like a ramyb design, I can donate it to Goodwill...and if I don't like it now, I don't have to vote for it. Different mechanisms.

juliaL719 wrote:I'm an English teacher, and if I get an essay the day it's due, but there's a ton of things that are really bothering me, I give it back to the student, ungraded, and give them another day, with a small lateness penalty. Losing 3 points off what could be an A essay is a lot better than getting the B and shrugging and saying "well, at least it was in on time."

Thus teaching the student that they can half-ass it the day before it's due and get an extension, instead of emphasizing that work should be both high-quality AND on-time, which is a skill they'll need after they leave your classroom and enter the working world.

alephnull2k1 wrote:Thus teaching the student that they can half-ass it the day before it's due and get an extension, instead of emphasizing that work should be both high-quality AND on-time, which is a skill they'll need after they leave your classroom and enter the working world.

Not exactly. They only get that option once.

And I have to see all the drafts, comment on them, and note significant progress. If it isn't there, my gift does not apply.

ramyb wrote:It's amazing how I managed to do that considering my total inactivity on the site in the past year and a half and the fact that I have never even mentioned woot there even once. Good work Nancy Drew.

Thanks to everyone who enjoyed the shirt and voted

Well, first of all, I don't really get your patronizing tone considering I didn't even say anything negative, I just was trying to explain why it seems why your shirts always fog despite the backlash in the comments. Second of all, you're not exactly hard to find, nor was your Deviant Art following small, so I don't know why you think you HAD to mention Woot for people from Deviant Art to get here.

ramyb wrote: Penis hat? really?

I never said it was a penis hat. I said it looked too penisy from a distance. Big difference.

anyone else notice the arms are not the same length?

i cant stop seein that and its really awkward

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I think the table shouldve been sliced in half like if he fumbled with his lightsaber as it came out. or to the apple. =)

juliaL719 wrote:Not exactly. They only get that option once.

And I have to see all the drafts, comment on them, and note significant progress. If it isn't there, my gift does not apply.

So, just to be clear, I lacked full insight into your process, and heaped judgement upon you unfairly based on my own biases?

Man, that sucks. Who am I to sit in judgement over you? Just because I have strong opinions about what children should be taught, I tried to shame you into changing something you're happy with, which I lacked full understanding of, to suit my preferences.

I have broken Wil Wheaton's rule, and hang my head in shame.

erina7262 wrote:I never said it was a penis hat. I said it looked too penisy from a distance. Big difference.

I always thought Darth Vader and Storm Troopers hats were a little on the phallic side. I don't think you can make a good Darth Vader or Storm Trooper who doesn't look penisy.

alephnull2k1 wrote:So, just to be clear, I lacked full insight into your process, and heaped judgement upon you unfairly based on my own biases?

Man, that sucks. Who am I to sit in judgement over you? Just because I have strong opinions about what children should be taught, I tried to shame you into changing something you're happy with, which I lacked full understanding of, to suit my preferences.

I have broken Wil Wheaton's rule, and hang my head in shame.

I realize that you don't have a magic window into my brain. Of course you don't know the full process.

No big. The internet's a tough place to read tone, though, and I can't tell if you're being snarky or not, but I was never offended at any point, and I hope you aren't rolling your eyes now. If so, I apologize.

juliaL719 wrote:I realize that you don't have a magic window into my brain. Of course you don't know the full process.

No big. The internet's a tough place to read tone, though, and I can't tell if you're being snarky or not, but I was never offended at any point, and I hope you aren't rolling your eyes now. If so, I apologize.

Just a little snarky...I'd hoped you'd see the parallel between my jumping on you about how you teach English, and you excoriating ramyb for failing to live up to your expectations of what he should do to pursue/"improve" his art.

Art is subjective. Ramyb's artistic "weaknesses" will undoubtedly prevent him from successfully entering certain areas of the graphic arts world, but it seems to me that despite those weaknesses, he's got this t-shirt thing pretty figured out. Whether that's because of art that people like, or just good marketing, Woot's making money and ramyb's making money. No one is storming into your house and making you buy Derby winners, and we all suffer Derby disappointments. It's the nature of the beast, because as much as you might want to believe that the best art will win, it's still just a popularity contest.

(full disclosure: I don't tend to vote for ramyb's designs, but he does seem to be singled out for extra-special "attention" from the "artists". I find this shirt mildly funny, but not funny enough to wear on my chest. C'est la vie.)

alephnull2k1 wrote:Just a little snarky...I'd hoped you'd see the parallel between my jumping on you about how you teach English, and you excoriating ramyb for failing to live up to your expectations of what he should do to pursue/"improve" his art.

Art is subjective. Ramyb's artistic "weaknesses" will undoubtedly prevent him from successfully entering certain areas of the graphic arts world, but it seems to me that despite those weaknesses, he's got this t-shirt thing pretty figured out. Whether that's because of art that people like, or just good marketing, Woot's making money and ramyb's making money. No one is storming into your house and making you buy Derby winners, and we all suffer Derby disappointments. It's the nature of the beast, because as much as you might want to believe that the best art will win, it's still just a popularity contest.

(full disclosure: I don't tend to vote for ramyb's designs, but he does seem to be singled out for extra-special "attention" from the "artists". I find this shirt mildly funny, but not funny enough to wear on my chest. C'est la vie.)

It's a point that has been argued a hundred times before by those of us particularly annoyed by it over the years and new groups of people every once in a while.

The woot derby is a special thing, and to see it trampled and dominated by somebody with Ramy's "traits" isn't fun. We'll continue to argue that quality and integrity are important, and people like you will continue to argue that popularity and profit are all that matters. It's a blood war (to drop a D&D reference) that never ends.

mafafu888 wrote:As a teacher I find this shirt has neither rhyme nor reason. As someone mentioned earlier, there is no context for the character that allows this shirt to make sense. It is just a "stick a pop culture reference in a different place" shirt. Bleh.

As a non-teacher, I find that this shirt - which clearly relies upon pop culture in order to obtain votes - does have some logical reasoning behind it. I assumed that this was Vader trying his hand at being an elementary school substitute teacher. But, due to his personality (not being a strong people-person and not being very good at working with kids), he resorts to teaching them what he knows... which is light years (N.P.I.) beyond their understanding. That was what I thought at first glance anyway. I have no idea if this was the actually intent; however, if this is the case, I feel that the shirt does make sense - even if it relies entirely on pop culture.



Ramyb: I like it. Even though it is a reference to Star Wars... or possibly Spaceballs... or possibly Family Guy, I think that it is a clever design. I do wish that his left arm wasn't so long and that the cape/desk issue were fixed though. Other than that, I find it to be a very wearable design.

bluetuba wrote:We'll continue to argue that quality and integrity are important, and people like you will continue to argue that popularity and profit are all that matters. It's a blood war (to drop a D&D reference) that never ends.

Woot ultimately determines what the derby is. The results speak for themselves.
Ramyb (et. al.) provide(s) product the Woot public wants, Woot sells it to them.
The end.
Arguments to "quality and integrity" are shouts in the wind.
(Tilting at Woot-mills was my prior metaphor)

Dailies (and arguably double-takes, ECs) are another matter entirely.

bluetuba wrote:It's a point that has been argued a hundred times before by those of us particularly annoyed by it over the years and new groups of people every once in a while.

The woot derby is a special thing, and to see it trampled and dominated by somebody with Ramy's "traits" isn't fun. We'll continue to argue that quality and integrity are important, and people like you will continue to argue that popularity and profit are all that matters. It's a blood war (to drop a D&D reference) that never ends.

Then it needs to be solved the way the founding fathers solved it, when they were afraid that the great unwashed masses would elect bad presidents. Set up an "electoral college" for the "special" Derby process, so that you can correct it when "people like me" excercise their "one w00ter, one vote" prerogative in ways that irritate and displease you. Or go create your own theme park with blackjack and hookers. Go be special in special-land and don't invite anyone who's not special like you. But consider this...the people who make this thing called "Derby" possible, who dream up the themes, and make up the rules, and turn the crank on the Rejectionator, are clearly NOT interested in any sort of censure of ramyb. They are the ones who have the control over what's available to vote for. They're the ones you need to convince, not me. I'm clearly too stupid to decide for myself what I should spend $10 or $15 to wear on my person, so I shouldn't have bad choices.

Quality is another subjective measure, particularly in "art". So, which qualities are to be valued? Feel free to answer in essay form.

bluetuba wrote:It's a point that has been argued a hundred times before by those of us particularly annoyed by it over the years and new groups of people every once in a while.

This could easily be appended with "of which there are only few."

Let's be honest here, for every RamyB hater on here, there are *arbitrary number* times as many fans. Now I agree that artists on here don't always have the best/most accurate artwork, and I sometimes feel that someone else "deserves" to win. But, in those cases, I am often times in the minority because that is not what shirt.woot ever has been or ever will be about.(at least as far as I know... please see disclaimer)

Directed to all haters and no one in particular: Honestly, just deal with it. Quit trolling someone else because they don't meet your standards.

alephnull2k1 wrote:
Quality is another subjective measure, particular in "art". So, which qualities are to be valued? Feel free to answer in essay form.

When studying the DaDa art movement (most of which I personally despise), my history of art professor gave us this Clement Greenberg quote that has stuck with me over the years when regarding art that I may not find to be of my personal tastes in quality:

"You like it, that's all, whether it's a landscape or abstract. You like it. It hits you. You don't have to read it. The work of art-sculpture or painting-forces your eye."

alephnull2k1 wrote:Then it needs to be solved the way the founding fathers solved it, when they were afraid that the great unwashed masses would elect bad presidents. Set up an "electoral college" for the "special" Derby process, so that you can correct it when "people like me" excercise their "one w00ter, one vote" prerogative in ways that irritate and displease you. Or go create your own theme park with blackjack and hookers. Go be special in special-land and don't invite anyone who's not special like you. But consider this...the people who make this thing called "Derby" possible, who dream up the themes, and make up the rules, and turn the crank on the Rejectionator, are clearly NOT interested in any sort of censure of ramyb. They are the ones who have the control over what's available to vote for. They're the ones you need to convince, not me. I'm clearly too stupid to decide for myself what I should spend $10 or $15 to wear on my person, so I shouldn't have bad choices.

Quality is another subjective measure, particularly in "art". So, which qualities are to be valued? Feel free to answer in essay form.

Mentioning that it's an endless argument that's happened 100 times before basically means I'm not interested in having it again. "Quality is subjective" and "You are an elitest jerk" are all well worn paths. If you really want an essay response I suggest you go digging through the forums and find one of many made over the years.

I'm not the sort that will devote endless essays to fighting over this. :P

ramyb wrote:I read the comments and thought about them but I don't necessarily agree with all or most of them. I'm not sure what about this design implies laziness, considering it took the entire day on Thursday to complete. Penis hat? really? It is extremely frustrating to have put a lot of effort into something then have it called a "rough draft" considering the level of polished it is. There were several intentional decisions I made where I sacrificed realism for clarity, which I think is totally fine in the cartooning world. I'm not sure why this, of all the entries in the derby, is the one that is considered the worst in internal anatomical consistency or the one with orangutan arms considering some of the other entries, especially some of those in the fog.

The visual impact of the design is exactly what I wanted it to be, so I didn't want to make any changes and disrupt that. Ultimately I will not please everyone, so I can only decide based on what I believe myself. Could someone else make improvements to the design? Potentially, but given the limitations of my skillset I am pleased with the results and find a lot of the criticism of this design to be overly harsh and unwarranted. If you actually cared about my personal improvement then I might take what you have to say into consideration more often, but when your goal in commenting is to convince others not to vote it is easier to ignore, even if there is value in what you are saying.

To be clear, before my words get twisted, I'm not saying every piece of criticism that I have received, either on this or in the past, has been overly harsh or unwarranted. A lot of what has been said to me I have taken into account and worked on for future derbies. It may be hard for you to believe, but I spend a great deal of time obsessing over minor details for several hours after finishing a design. Much of that time is spent trying to correct the types of mistakes that people have brought up to me in the past. Unfortunately, since you don't get to see the actual rough draft, you have no point of comparison and you can just continue to assume that I don't care about my work. That's your call, I won't be able to change your mind, especially since our ideas of visual appeal strongly conflict and I have no intention of changing mine just to appease you.

You are a strong and talented person.

I could never hack it at woot because my spirit wasn't strong enough to persevere in the Thunderdome of Hate. A death by a thousand piss ant comments from trolls that don't know any better than to try to bring others down.

It's definitely an interesting experience.

It's also quite interesting to watch you get flamed with hate every week and watch you keep on keeping on. It's very admirable.

You win alot. I would assume through woot, you have earned yourself quite a great deal of financial freedom, AND artistic freedom. You make art that you art direct yourself.

That kind of life for an artist is rare. The ability to create such a life is an artform in itself.

And I think that's why you are rewarded so handsomely. It's not just your craft, but your perseverance, thriving in an otherwise difficult world, unemployment, recession, Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

yellowflower wrote:I always thought Darth Vader and Storm Troopers hats were a little on the phallic side. I don't think you can make a good Darth Vader or Storm Trooper who doesn't look penisy.

True. One could make a *good* Darth Vader or Storm Trooper, and not look like a OMGOMGOMGPONIESOMG PWNIES ...

Or one could make something like this. O_o

bluetuba wrote:Mentioning that it's an endless argument that's happened 100 times before basically means I'm not interested in having it again. "Quality is subjective" and "You are an elitest jerk" are all well worn paths. If you really want an essay response I suggest you go digging through the forums and find one of many made over the years.

I'm not the sort that will devote endless essays to fighting over this. :P

Honestly, when I invited the essay response, I thought I was replying to the English teacher I started the argument with, so feel free to ignore it. That you felt the need to jump in and start having an argument that you said you don't want to have is mystifying.

Put your tongue back in your head. It's incompatible with your high-minded ideals.

The weirdest thing about this shirt is how I went from at first glance (without seeing it in detail, without thinking about the idea behind it, without knowing the artist) instantly wanted to buy it if it became the woot at midnight, to after hearing its critisms and seeing the flaws pointed out, I dont want to buy it now.
:/

majorbro wrote:The weirdest thing about this shirt is how I went from at first glance (without seeing it in detail, without thinking about the idea behind it, without knowing the artist) instantly wanted to buy it if it became the woot at midnight, to after hearing its critisms and seeing the flaws pointed out, I dont want to buy it now.
:/

That's most of Ramy's entries in a nutshell. They get votes from snap decision OOOOH SHINY or love of bunnies, grim reapers, or pop culture turned chibi but when you look at it up close you see all the flaws.

You can make the argument that the instant reaction is the only thing that matters on a tee shirt strangers are only going to glance at, but some of us like to be proud of what we are wearing.

alephnull2k1 wrote:Honestly, when I invited the essay response, I thought I was replying to the English teacher I started the argument with, so feel free to ignore it. That you felt the need to jump in and start having an argument that you said you don't want to have is mystifying.

Put your tongue back in your head. It's incompatible with your high-minded ideals.

lol

mafafu888 wrote:As a teacher I find this shirt has neither rhyme nor reason. As someone mentioned earlier, there is no context for the character that allows this shirt to make sense. It is just a "stick a pop culture reference in a different place" shirt. Bleh.

Did I mention I was a math teacher...?

Re: Substitute Teacher

To everyone who so arrogantly, and often ignorantly, criticized the creator of this shirt...look who just won top 3!

It is so ridiculous how many people here think so highly of their "critique of art" when they apparently don't understand true art at all. Since when was art ever in perfect and life-like proportions and perspective? If anything, THAT'S EXACTLY what makes art!

The whole point of art is for the creator, who can be any of us, to express whatever he wants, WITHOUT being limited to reason or logic. And if the viewer doesn't understand it, that's their problem.

Whatever ramyb's intentions were with this shirt, does something have to be all out picasso, with complete distortions, for it to be accepted? Art allows us to do the impossible. Otherwise we'd just take real-life pictures and put them on a shirt.

Hey Ramyb, good job dealing with the criticism, and even taking some into consideration. I wasn't even planning on getting a shirt from this derby, but simply because you stood firm with your design and the freedom in art, I am going to purchase this shirt.

Because now, this shirt represents not only an awesome Star Wars reference, but the ability of an artist to stick by what he felt like designing, because that is the beauty of art, whether for woot shirt derbies or Sistene chapels.

This discussion cracks me up. For the record, I don't particularly like the shirt, but I admire ramyb's fairly calm defense of his work.

Shirt.woot is a popularity contest. Artistic merit, which a select few have made it their mission to defend, isn't relevant. I don't do visual art, but I am a classical musician, where the same principles are in play. There are only a few forums in which artistic merit is a priority, and a broad-spectrum poll of the internet community giving "thumbs-up" or "thumbs-down" votes sure ain't one of them.

It's a $10 t-shirt. Have some perspective. No one's going to hang it in their den.

When you're trying to appeal to the masses, you go for the cheap, obvious effect. (That's true in music too.) And if getting a return on your investment is important, you limit how much time you sink into the project, especially if it won't affect your bottom line. That's just simple economics.

Those of you who are offended by ramyb's success need to find another arena in which to wage your artistic battles. Those arenas are out there, but you'll have to apply some common sense in order to figure out the good places to look. A $10 t-shirt popularity contest? Seriously?