Derby #217: Hipster Animals
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Indie Turtle

Indie Turtle
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ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Indie Turtle


Don't even bother asking what he's listening to :P

curli76


quality posts: 18 Private Messages curli76
ramyb wrote:saved


I dig it, but I'd resub without the argyle in the background.

palookaboy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy
Re: Indie Turtle


Kind of unimaginative, imo

elmosuperman


quality posts: 0 Private Messages elmosuperman
Re: Indie Turtle


Your turtles are classic. GMV

endangeredomega


quality posts: 37 Private Messages endangeredomega
elmosuperman wrote:Your turtles are classic. GMV



Ramyb turtles are SO mainstream. -_-

drewpac18


quality posts: 0 Private Messages drewpac18
endangeredomega wrote:Ramyb turtles are SO mainstream. -_-


This is tricky; we're ostensibly designing shirts for hipsters or those who ironically love hipsters (hipster-hipsters?), but no hipster could wear a ramyb shirt no more than they could listen to Britney Spears while eating at an Applebees.

Jeffarehappy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jeffarehappy
drewpac18 wrote:This is tricky; we're ostensibly designing shirts for hipsters or those who ironically love hipsters (hipster-hipsters?), but no hipster could wear a ramyb shirt no more than they could listen to Britney Spears while eating at an Applebees.


Don't forget its hipster to do things stupid like listening to Britney Spears while eating at Applebees because its ironic in itself. So anything thats not hipster becomes hipster.

drewpac18


quality posts: 0 Private Messages drewpac18
Jeffarehappy wrote:Don't forget its hipster to do things stupid like listening to Britney Spears while eating at Applebees because its ironic in itself. So anything thats not hipster becomes hipster.


That'll be hipster in 10 years. Now, it's hipster to listen to Debbie Gibson while eating at a Planet Hollywood. You're just too far ahead of your time, Jeffarehappy ;)

CapnLuke


quality posts: 0 Private Messages CapnLuke
Jeffarehappy wrote:Don't forget its hipster to do things stupid like listening to Britney Spears while eating at Applebees because its ironic in itself. So anything thats not hipster becomes hipster.


Anything that happens in this shirt passes ironic and just moves into coincidental.

bigpauly85


quality posts: 3 Private Messages bigpauly85

It's amazing!! Every time ramyb puts a shirt in the derby, I somehow gravitate to it immediately. Like the design (including the argyle). Hopefully your shirt with the leaves will be up tomorrow or sunday.

sweetpea27


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sweetpea27
endangeredomega wrote:Ramyb turtles are SO mainstream. -_-


i keep seeing you diss on ramyb, why are you jealous or just to have to hate on everything you see, none of your remarks are usful and i think you need to stop!

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
sweetpea27 wrote:i keep seeing you diss on ramyb, why are you jealous or just to have to hate on everything you see, none of your remarks are usful and i think you need to stop!


You've only been here since the beginning of this August. When you're here a bit longer, you'll see what all the controversy is about. Give it time. You'll ultimately form your own opinion, but endangeredomega is entitled to voice their opinion as well. That's why it's open thread for each tee.

ElanorRigby


quality posts: 14 Private Messages ElanorRigby
ramyb wrote:Don't even bother asking what he's listening to :P


lol...

Even on a cloudy day, I'll keep my eyes fixed on the sun...

Oxyminoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Oxyminoan
ramyb wrote:Don't even bother asking what he's listening to :P


Gotta hand it to you, you're the king of recycling.

Can't fault you for doing what works. The drooling masses eat up that turtle design, no matter how many times they see it.

silverdragontyr


quality posts: 0 Private Messages silverdragontyr
Can't fault you for doing what works. The drooling masses eat up that turtle design, no matter how many times they see it.


It's not even the turtle that is the problem. A lot said they were done with woot if his bag design won. Now I'm not quite that cynical, but if someone told me 5 of the designs in the current fog were all the same artist, I would believe them. I used to like shirt.woot because of all the different designs, but if this keeps up where the same artists keep getting in the fog the first day and staying there, I really may be done with shirt.woot. Guess we'll see how it goes.

Oxyminoan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Oxyminoan
silverdragontyr wrote:It's not even the turtle that is the problem. A lot said they were done with woot if his bag design won. Now I'm not quite that cynical, but if someone told me 5 of the designs in the current fog were all the same artist, I would believe them. I used to like shirt.woot because of all the different designs, but if this keeps up where the same artists keep getting in the fog the first day and staying there, I really may be done with shirt.woot. Guess we'll see how it goes.


Same. I find myself coming to this site less and less. I've purchased 28 shirts from woot since late 2009. 2 of those 28 were purchased in 2011...and neither were derby entries.

It's such a shame. I love the ideals behind this site, but it's become a victim of its own success.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
Re: Indie Turtle


That is a very pretty green, and you seem to use it a lot. That color is probably my favorite color. Sadly, it is not a pantone SC color which I why I never use it here. With that said, can you please start using pantone SC swatches in your preview images? You have been here long enough ( way longer than I have) to know that you should use pantone Solid Coated swatches. When you don't, it seems like you are intentional misleading the voters because the actual print will not look like this preview (and we all know how much your ethics are questioned here). It is really easy and quick to convert the colors, so feel free to speak up on the rare chance you don't know how and I will help you out. Thanks!


PerpetualKid


quality posts: 2 Private Messages PerpetualKid
Re: Indie Turtle


Normally I just shrug these derbies off, but I'm officially irked. There are some really good and CLEVER designs in this one that I would love to wear...the thought that they may not print because of a bespectacled turtle with an MP3 player is bothersome.

melloncollie3


quality posts: 0 Private Messages melloncollie3

It's.... it's a turtle. With glasses. Have I missed something? Surely there's more to this design than simply that?

citrusbug


quality posts: 0 Private Messages citrusbug
Re: Indie Turtle


Here's the color corrected version (the pantone version it will print as. Why Ramy won't use the real colors is beyond me). I'm neutral on these things, but I feel like people should know what they're REALLY voting on. If you still like it, by all means vote.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
citrusbug wrote:Here's the color corrected version (the pantone version it will print as. Why Ramy won't use the real colors is beyond me). I'm neutral on these things, but I feel like people should know what they're REALLY voting on. If you still like it, by all means vote.]


The tricky thing with pantones is that the way they appear on each individual screen is radically different- you can't say that this is how it will look, because how it looks to you is completely different from how it looks on another screen. I look at my entries on three different screens, and the colors are radically different- I'm not sure why this entry is being picked on in particular when at least half the fog is not pantone selected- Ultimately, woot adjusts the colors based on what will best print- sometimes they do a white underlayer, other times they don't. That has a huge impact on how the colors print. Another factor is the shirt color itself, which reflects differently on the colors. Since I have no experience in the print industry, I choose colors the way I want the shirts to turn out. Until now, I haven't been disappointed with woot's printing. Are the colors always exactly what they look like on my screen? No, but ultimately they work and are closer to what I want than the pantone selections photoshop gives me can get. The colors I chose here, on my screen, are as close as I can get to what I've seen woot print before. The adjusted colors you did here are just a guess as to which pantone woot will select, and even if it is the correct choice, likely looks much different from how it is on the shirt.

Earlysong


quality posts: 21 Private Messages Earlysong
citrusbug wrote:Here's the color corrected version (the pantone version it will print as. Why Ramy won't use the real colors is beyond me). I'm neutral on these things, but I feel like people should know what they're REALLY voting on. If you still like it, by all means vote.


It looks exactly the same to me as Ramyb's version...

I love this website! ^^

DJTweekNYC


quality posts: 4 Private Messages DJTweekNYC
ramyb wrote:The tricky thing with pantones is that the way they appear on each individual screen is radically different- you can't say that this is how it will look, because how it looks to you is completely different from how it looks on another screen. I look at my entries on three different screens, and the colors are radically different- I'm not sure why this entry is being picked on in particular when at least half the fog is not pantone selected- Ultimately, woot adjusts the colors based on what will best print- sometimes they do a white underlayer, other times they don't. That has a huge impact on how the colors print. Another factor is the shirt color itself, which reflects differently on the colors. Since I have no experience in the print industry, I choose colors the way I want the shirts to turn out. Until now, I haven't been disappointed with woot's printing. Are the colors always exactly what they look like on my screen? No, but ultimately they work and are closer to what I want than the pantone selections photoshop gives me can get. The colors I chose here, on my screen, are as close as I can get to what I've seen woot print before. The adjusted colors you did here are just a guess as to which pantone woot will select, and even if it is the correct choice, likely looks much different from how it is on the shirt.


I need to chime in on this as a printer. Before I do, I want to be clear and separate myself, I am not attacking in any way. I just have a pet peeve for incorrect information. Truth be told I like a lot of Ramy's art and try to stay out of the controversies because It's just bad business.

Yes, a Pantone color will look different on every single computer screen and print differently on every single DIGITAL printer. But, the reason we work in a Pantone pallet is because when ink is used, it will print the same every single time. There are 2 reasons I can think of Woot wants us to use the Pantone Solid Coated Pallet. Reason #1, it is the closest digital representation of a Pantone color. Reason #2, when performing color separations for print, you can't perform them easily with spot colors. When I design a letterhead, logo, business card or anything else that is to be printed offset (with ink on a press) I use Pantone colors, except when I'm doing a 4 color process job (CMYK.) It's simply the industry standard. It makes life easier for the printer and in the end, you know what you're going to get every single time. When you attempt to perform color separations on a spot color job, the computer assumes you want to separate it into CMYK.

Now in the case of this shirt, that green simply isn't achievable using the Pantone color pallet. The best thing I could think of doing to achieve it is putting white behind it and doing a screen of a specific Pantone green. But even that wouldn't be exact, and I wouldn't expect Woot to go to the trouble to do it. I expect they would simply put an eyedropper to the green he is using and print using the closest Pantone match, which is the new green you see in that sample in the comments. As I said earlier, it won't print looking exactly like that green, but it's certainly closer and more accurate that the green currently represented in the design comp.

Now, is this really such a big deal? In my personal opinion, I don't think so. Woot may have a different opinion on the matter, but they've been printing from Ramy's art for quite a long time and I'm sure they have their own little system of setting up his art files for print. So it's probably just a moot point. I just wanted to correct Ramy on his explanation of Pantone colors, because in reality it is a universal color pallet that illustrates a representation of how a color will print EVERY SINGLE TIME in ink. The best way to see an accurate Pantone color representation is with a Pantone color flip chart, which is quite pricey. In fact, I keep my flip chart at my desk at work hidden away from light to keep the colors on it from getting degraded. It's simply that important.

I wish Ramy lot's of luck and success. Like I said, I like some of his designs. This one's not my cup of tea but it's a to each his own situation. If anything I hope my comment here was educational and not controversial.

DJTweekNYC


quality posts: 4 Private Messages DJTweekNYC

Also, I forgot to mention, with regard to color separations, if Ramy prepares his art files like most of the artists here, his files are probably already color separated. I know in my case, I keep all the pantone colors on their own separate layers and delete everything beneath each individual color so I have no overlapping colors or halftones. If Woot wants to layer a white vignette beneath my art, that's up to them as the screen printing professionals. So the color separation point may be moot also. But the recolored green is the closest digital representation to how the Pantone color will print if your monitor is calibrated reasonably.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
ramyb wrote:The tricky thing with pantones is that the way they appear on each individual screen is radically different- you can't say that this is how it will look, because how it looks to you is completely different from how it looks on another screen I look at my entries on three different screens, and the colors are radically different


Well if both images (yours and the one with the correct color) were the pantone green, then both images would look the same be cause they are being viewed on the SAME SCREEN. Screen or monitor will not magically atler information for that color swatch, silly. That is a poor excuse and an awkward argument, especially since you admit that you don't use pantone colors below.

ramyb wrote: I'm not sure why this entry is being picked on in particular when at least half the fog is not pantone selected-


Yes, at least half the fog are your designs and they probably aren't pantone colors either

It is because you use bright green (and other bright colors a lot) all the time when its is the incorrect color. It is misleading, and dishonorable if intentional. What people see is what people should get. Basically, its time to draw the line, but all I can really do is ask you nicely (which I did above). Patrick and Walzman are a similar story as you and they can do it...

Also, the newer artist might not know better, so we cut them slack.

ramyb wrote: Ultimately, woot adjusts the colors based on what will best print


I had made this mistake with my first print, and woot messed it up big time. It was partly my fault but I was new and didn't know any better and woot went back and corrected it which was really awesome. But even if you do trust woot, you should care about your artwork, ensuring it looks the way you want to in its final state, and NOT HAVE THEM DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU! That is just lazy, and doesn't benefit anyone (except yourself if you don't care about your art)...


ramyb wrote: sometimes they do a white underlayer, other times they don't. That has a huge impact on how the colors print. Another factor is the shirt color itself, which reflects differently on the colors. Since I have no experience in the print industry, I choose colors the way I want the shirts to turn out. Until now, I haven't been disappointed with woot's printing. Are the colors always exactly what they look like on my screen? No, but ultimately they work and are closer to what I want than the pantone selections photoshop gives me can get. The colors I chose here, on my screen, are as close as I can get to what I've seen woot print before. The adjusted colors you did here are just a guess as to which pantone woot will select, and even if it is the correct choice, likely looks much different from how it is on the shirt.


Blah blah blah. I ask you nicely to use pantone swatches. You can keep making up pointless excuses and continues on a misleading path or you could acknowledge us and convert your design to pantone, before you send it to woot, like a good, respectable, hard working artist would

Again, on the off chance you don't know how to convert your colors, then speak up and I will gladly help you out.

____


Earlysong wrote:It looks exactly the same to me as Ramyb's version...


If you put the colors side by side, you would notice the difference. The pantone green is not as good in my opinion. It is less vibrant and a little more dull. The design still works and most people won't care, so why not show people what they would actually get, right?


ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
chumpmagic wrote:lots of stuff


I'm not sure if my argument wasn't clear the first time because I think we are having two different conversations. I'll try to explain again what I was saying in the first place, because I'm not trying to fight with you here and understand your point.



This here is three photos taken directly from the comments of the shirt on three different monitors (borrowed a laptop from a friend to do this)- all were taken in the exact same lighting, same camera, no flash, no color modifications. All three of these are supposed to represent pantone colors. They are slightly blurry but it is extremely clear that each is very very different in color. Now tell me- which one is the accurate one? Which one represents how this shirt will print? Because if one of these two is the "correct" one, then one of these three people will see the shirt as it will print, and two others will see a "misleading" representation. Whether you choose pantone colors or not, monitor settings and calibration and screen type, as well as the backlighting, room lighting, etc. will all have an enormous impact on the way that a design is perceived. Therefore, pantone colors or not, the design will appear a little bit different from how it will print. It is not a matter of laziness- a conversion to pantone colors takes about four seconds to do in photoshop. I choose the colors I think look best for a design, and woot usually doesn't let me down when it comes to replicating what I was hoping to achieve. I have no problems using pantone colors in my submissions if woot makes a rule about it, but I don't see a reason to do so when the result is colors that look even less like what the finished product will be on my screen. I used to do the pantone conversions myself, but have found that woot does a better job than i do of adjusting for colors, and sometimes makes modifications that I would never have thought of that lead to great results that come as close to my original vision as possible.

citrusbug


quality posts: 0 Private Messages citrusbug

I apologize, I'm not intentionally picking on you, Ramy.

Photoshop has a feature that picks the pantone color, it doesn't matter how it displays on your screen; I took your image, took it to photoshop, checked and it is not pantone.

Doubleclick the color, it takes you to the pantone libraries, select pantone solid coated, done. There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be submitting your designs NOT in pantone. There should be no reason why ANYONE (unless they're using MS paint) should not be submitting their designs in pantone so people can see the real design.
There should be a rule for pantone only colors imo if it's so common in derbies.

The other side of this argument is that no one should care what the image will look like on the shirt, and people are just voting on the idea since it's so vastly different on monitors, and that artists are only hurting themselves by attempting to make a more accurate representation, since pantone doesn't look as good on the screen and is harder to design for.

Either way, good luck in the derby and nothing bad was meant by these posts, just an observation.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
ramyb wrote:excuse


Obviously we don't see eye to eye, so lets just keep this simple...

You have admitted that you don't use Pantone Solid Coated colors. I am requesting that you used Pantone Solid Coated Swatches since those are the colors used for printing. Do it or don't do it...

Lets just leave it at that.


hikerjohnd


quality posts: 1 Private Messages hikerjohnd
JadenKale wrote:You've only been here since the beginning of this August. When you're here a bit longer, you'll see what all the controversy is about. Give it time. You'll ultimately form your own opinion, but endangeredomega is entitled to voice their opinion as well. That's why it's open thread for each tee.


But the hate and discontent aimed at Ramyb seems disproportionate to that aimed at other artists. Ramyb is a talented artists who gives the public what they want - the volume of ramys art that gets printed is evidence of that!

Mancho


quality posts: 4 Private Messages Mancho
hikerjohnd wrote:But the hate and discontent aimed at Ramyb seems disproportionate to that aimed at other artists. Ramyb is a talented artists who gives the public what they want - the volume of ramys art that gets printed is evidence of that!


What makes you think the "hate and discontent" should be proportionate? There is no denying Ramyb gives the public what they want. Such is the discontent of some people here. That is not necessarily the only gripe people here have, though. This is why Jaden suggests sweetpea stick around, instead of jumping to conclusions regarding other people's motives, particularly since endangeredomega's comment was, I understand, a humorous take on the derby theme.

crazydoglady


quality posts: 4 Private Messages crazydoglady
hikerjohnd wrote:But the hate and discontent aimed at Ramyb seems disproportionate to that aimed at other artists. Ramyb is a talented artists who gives the public what they want - the volume of ramys art that gets printed is evidence of that!


I recently called Ramyb a marketing genius because I agree that he gives people what they want... but "marketing genius" and "talented artist" are two very different creatures. What gets printed is related to the number of votes... OK, I'm going to admit that I recently followed a link to a site that said a lot of unflattering things about ramyb and the source of his votes. I dismissed it all when I read it, wrote it off as an ugly feud gone public. But when I read the comments posted after his submissions in the last few derbies I start to wonder if maybe there is a grain of truth to it all - because quite frankly some of the posts (yours included) are reminiscent of adoring teenage girls posting about their latest idol. Soooo - I haven't been around long and I refuse to jump on the "bash ramyb" bandwagon BUT I will say that when I read the gushing praise by voters like you it gets factored in to the opinion I am forming about ramyb. If he is truley as talented as you seem to think he is then you should be voting for his art and not worrying about his feelings.

cwendauthi


quality posts: 0 Private Messages cwendauthi
citrusbug wrote:There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be submitting your designs NOT in pantone. There should be no reason why ANYONE (unless they're using MS paint) should not be submitting their designs in pantone so people can see the real design.
There should be a rule for pantone only colors imo if it's so common in derbies.
...

The other side of this argument is that no one should care what the image will look like on the shirt, and people are just voting on the idea since it's so vastly different on monitors

I don't even... You state something that contradicts what Ramy said, then immediately follow that up with a concession that he may have a valid point, all while not actually seeming to understand what he said.

Regardless, if woot's in the habit of tinkering with the coloring/print process in order to produce the best design they can, the customer isn't voting on what they see anyway.

chumpmagic wrote:Obviously we don't see eye to eye, so lets just keep this simple...

The same goes for you, really. He posted his opinion, and you back-hand insult him for it not once, but twice. Say what you will about Ramy, he usually stays pretty classy in his replies to attacks; at least in the shirt threads.

You can say he's wrong and hold a differing opinion, but his explanation ("excuses") seems to have some thought behind it and isn't just something he's doing/saying to be an asshat (unlike some other people).

He posts the design in the colors he wants the shirt to look like and let's woot take care of the actual printing color configuration. You can say that you had a bad experience with it, but he says he's had only positive experiences with it. Your anecdote is not more valid than his. If woot messes one of his shirts up, maybe he'll take another approach, but so far it works for him, and as far as I can see, it's not hurting anyone at all.

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
cwendauthi wrote:
He posts the design in the colors he wants the shirt to look like and let's woot take care of the actual printing color configuration. You can say that you had a bad experience with it, but he says he's had only positive experiences with it. Your anecdote is not more valid than his. If woot messes one of his shirts up, maybe he'll take another approach, but so far it works for him, and as far as I can see, it's not hurting anyone at all.


The problem with this is, it should be the designer who dictates the color choices, not be lazy and assume the staff will know the right colors to print the design with.

Part of design is not just in the drawing or creation of the concept, it's in the final product, and that includes understanding color. That's why Pantone was created: to have a universal color palette across the print world. If you use color 185 C, you will ALWAYS get that red you see on coca-cola cans. It will never change unless the person mixing the colors makes a mistake. And if you can cough up a paltry $30 bucks or so on a used Pantone book from eBay (and I use the term "paltry" purely because he's made enough in tee money here to have bought possibly every artist 4 a piece), you can be respectful of the customers, the staff and the other designers competing with you. Hell, most of us don't have one, and we still use the Pantone coated list from Adobe's programs. Honestly, if you have the information available to you, I don't see why you wouldn't use it.

cleverconveyence


quality posts: 1 Private Messages cleverconveyence
hikerjohnd wrote:Ramyb is a talented artists who gives the public what they want - the volume of ramys art that gets printed is evidence of that!


You're half right.

Number of shirt.woots in 08: 23 (not counting randoms and shirts bought for friends)
number of shirt.woots in 09: 2 (same criteria)

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
cwendauthi wrote:

You can say he's wrong and hold a differing opinion, but his explanation ("excuses") seems to have some thought behind it...


Haha! You fool... That just what he wants you to think!

___

But seriously, hear me out because this BENEFITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THE MOST (people who purchase his designs). Woot uses pantone solid coated colors for printing. Pantone solid coated colors are a set range of color, similar to having a box of color markers. It is limited, and not every color is available through the Pantone Solid coated collection. This means, if you don't pantone solid coated colors, then the art you submit to woot has absolutely 0% chance of looking similar to the art when printed. This means that the design you are viewing, voting for and potential purchasing WILL NEVER BE the same as the design you will get. This is what RamyB does, and he as openly admitted it above.

And yes, his responses are excuses. There is no way to justify not using a Pantone Solid Coated swatch (we should be designing for t-shirt prints... not computer screens, right?). All he did was beat around the bush and avoid giving a direct response. And if you know anything about the topic at hand (which I can only assume you don't), you would know that most of his arguments/ excuses are hogwash. Do you know about digital art and printing? If you do, then you should understand why I didn't care for his "classy" replies.

And for the record, RamyB has had issue with his prints in the past. He just avoided bringing it up because its a bad time to admit it. I seen many people complain about "Behold a pale horse" (or w/e that design is called), being way to dark to a point where you can only make out the horse. Also, I remember stumbling across this bad print . I don't even follow ramyB for the most part and that are two bad prints (there are probably more), and it is most likely because he doesn't properly set up his files. Yes, woot can go back and change them... and they did. However, every time they do that, they are losing money for something that isn't their fault. So yes, it does hurt someone... it hurts woots as well as the customers that have to go through this whole ordeal.

Really, you shouldn't be defending on this one... I am not attacking him "just because." Converting your colors to a Pantone Solid Coated swatch is a very simple easy thing to do, and IT'S FOR YOUR (you the purchaser of ramyB shirts) OWN BENEFIT!!!


ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
chumpmagic wrote:snip


I thought you were going to agree to disagree, but your goal is starting to look a little different (although that was clear from the beginning when you chose to single out this design when you know that it is far from the only one that is "guilty" of not utilizing pantone colors).

There is a big difference between an excuse and an opinion. I presented a clear argument that you chose to entirely ignore and simply repeat what you had already stated. Putting words in caps doesn't make it stronger the second time around, it just makes it clear that you are here to argue.

I understand exactly your point, and it's a fair one. And you did ask nicely in the first place. There are certain mistakes that I've made in the past (although the ones you mentioned were not a pantone issue, but rather a halftoning issue, the second of which was actually reprinted because there was a rash appearing on red's legs that was not actually in the print-ready file) and I have learned from them as a designer. The farthest off from what I had intended to design in terms of print colors, however, was on my first print ever, on which I sent woot a file that was pantone adjusted already. Half the colors ended up printing drastically brighter than they looked on my monitor, which disrupted the subtlety of the design that I had intended. With the my second design, I also sent in my file pantone color adjusted, and of the three that I purchased, two had a squirrel that was a light tan color, and the other was an orange color.

Why is this the case? Because woot tinkers with the colors regardless of what is sent to them. On top of that, even if I owned a pantone color book to see the exact colors that will theoretically print, I can guarantee you that at least 99% of the voters do not have access to such a thing and therefore will see something on the shirt that is different from what they see on the monitor, whether the colors are pantones or not. There is a large enough library of pantone colors that designs come out pretty close no matter what shades you choose, especially if the colors selected are not too dark. So you can argue that not choosing pantones will mean that voters are looking at a design that is different from what they will see in print form, but 100% of the time that is the case if pantone colors are selected as well.

I'm not sure what your intentions initially were in making your post, but if this is a noble crusade to make sure pantone colors are used in derby entries, you should reach out a little more and try to "educate" some of the other artists out there who aren't using them as well. I apologize if I have become a bit cynical over the years on woot, but it is extremely difficult for me not to doubt people's intentions at this point when they choose to come after me and condone the same issue everywhere else. I'm sure it was not a coincidence that you chose this entry- maybe it is because it is your favorite shade of green so it stood out to you, and that's fine.

Next week I can give pantones a shot again and see how it goes, but it really doesn't matter. I'm just trying to explain to you that it's a moot point, because it doesn't make a bit of difference in the end and doesn't take any extra work to do, and it also doesn't make it any easier for voters to see how the design will look based on what they see on their monitors. Plus, I understand that the point of pantones is that they are supposed to print the same way every time, but when there is a shirt color underneath, that makes a big difference too. The way a color prints on kelly green is radically different from how it would appear on a white sheet of paper, and I simply don't have the background or experience to select colors based on those types of variations. Add to that the fact that woot has stated before that photoshop's pantones are not particularly accurate, and you can see why I have not been particularly inclined to choose pantone colors myself in my entries. I'll say it one more time, and I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears, but I choose colors that appear on my screen as close as possible to what I would like to see in print form. If woot can choose colors to fit that image better than I can, then it is better for the consumer and comes closer to the results that I want to achieve. That's all.

Here's my attempt at an agree to disagree on my end, but I can see that you are fired up about this and I'm sure you want to get a last word in, so have at it.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
ramyb wrote:I thought you were going to agree to disagree.



Same story as last time... You don't use pantone solid coated swatches. I kindly ask you use a pantone solid coated swatches. Do it or don't do it. Your call. Just don't give me all these excuse. The only excuse that could have persuaded me was that you didn't know how to convert your colors to pantone, and even then I would have trouble believing you since you have been doing this for so long.

*Edit: For the record, I won't bring this up again if you chose not to do it in future entries. I just wanted to let you how I felt about the whole deal.


ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
chumpmagic wrote:Same story as last time... You don't use pantone solid coated swatches. I kindly ask you use a pantone solid coated swatches. Do it or don't do it. Your call. Just don't give me all these excuse. The only excuse that could have persuaded me was that you didn't know how to convert your colors to pantone, and even then I would have trouble believing you since you have been doing this for so long.


Since you didn't address anything I actually said, I'll just bring a couple of things to your attention.

ramyb wrote:...you should reach out a little more and try to "educate" some of the other artists out there who aren't using them as well...

Next week I can give pantones a shot again and see how it goes....


I think this is a fair compromise- If your intentions are to create an even playing field and help out the consumer, prove it. There are plenty of other entries to go after (in fact, sometimes you praise entries that don't use pantones rather than make a mention of the issue)- I can do my part and try using them for a few weeks and see how it goes, but if this is an actually important issue to you and not just targeting me, there is a lot that you can be doing. The fog is completely dominated by entries that are not pantone color selected (and I'm not just talking about mine and you know it)- and while it is fine to give the benefit of the doubt to new wooters, they are the ones that you should be especially targeting since they might not know better and it is a perfect opportunity to make a difference.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
ramyb wrote:Since you didn't address anything I actually said, I'll just bring a couple of things to your attention.


I'll be honest, I didn't read most of it because I felt we already both made are cases and were about to go in circles.

Also, Which ones should I educate? Are they regular artist? Honestly, I spotted yours cause I love many of the bright colors you use ( I love working with a bright palette) and I know I can't use them here. I don't have the whole pantone SC palette memorized....


pacatak


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pacatak

Whenever there's no shirt I want, i pick Ramby. Might as well try to counteract all the sour grapes. Been here for a while, love his shirts

sarcasticsoap


quality posts: 3 Private Messages sarcasticsoap
Re: Indie Turtle


Argh, every Woot! shirt I've bought is green and this shirt is not helping me break the pattern. Damn your adorable designs and my weakness for them.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
Re: Indie Turtle


I like to think I'm an equal opportunity critic.
Therefore: *cough*

move along

ProfHotpants


quality posts: 49 Private Messages ProfHotpants
Re: Indie Turtle


To be clear, we do not require artists to use the Pantone matching system. We prefer artists to use it if possible, because it does make communicating the colors easier. While your RGB monitor can display millions of colors, the Pantone system only has 1,341 colors to choose from. Limiting these color options means it is more likely that the final print looks like the original entry.

Do not get hung up on how Pantone colors display on screen, because they will vary from monitor to monitor. The PMS colors Photoshop picks out are not completely accurate either. The only option for true PMS matching is to buy a physical Pantone book and use it for one year (it's pricey and must be replaced annually).

If you want the colors of your final printed shirt to closely match the orignal entry, and you want to save a tiny bit of the art directors' sanity, Pantone colors are preferred.

akd85


quality posts: 0 Private Messages akd85
Re: Indie Turtle


Looks like another turtle shirt is coming our way...

See, the care bear shirt is clever. I don't mind that. This? Stop with the turtles already.

WOOTZing

kuraifuyu


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kuraifuyu
Re: Indie Turtle


Leaves a little to be desired. If you didn't say what the derby was it would just look like a preppy nerdy turtle at first glance.

It's missing about 50 different accessories and accents, like someone ran in to a dollar store wearing hot glue lol

julejules


quality posts: 0 Private Messages julejules
chumpmagic wrote:Obviously we don't see eye to eye, so lets just keep this simple...

You have admitted that you don't use Pantone Solid Coated colors. I am requesting that you used Pantone Solid Coated Swatches since those are the colors used for printing. Do it or don't do it...

Lets just leave it at that.


ramyb wrote:
...you should reach out a little more and try to "educate" some of the other artists out there who aren't using them as well...

Next week I can give pantones a shot again and see how it goes....


I thought it was nice of Ramy to agree and use pantones when you requested it, even though it's not required. Instead of asking artists to use pantones, maybe you could contact woot directly. If they made it a rule then there wouldn't be an issue. Everyone would be using them and no one would be singled out.

elviswind


quality posts: 0 Private Messages elviswind
Oxyminoan wrote:Same. I find myself coming to this site less and less. I've purchased 28 shirts from woot since late 2009. 2 of those 28 were purchased in 2011...and neither were derby entries.

It's such a shame. I love the ideals behind this site, but it's become a victim of its own success.


Agreed . . . my shirt.woot buying has slowed considerable. There just isn't enough variety anymore. How many Facebook joke shirts have been printed in the last few months?

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
julejules wrote:Instead of asking artists to use pantones, maybe you could contact woot directly. If they made it a rule then there wouldn't be an issue. Everyone would be using them and no one would be singled out.


Requiring a rule like that would be prohibitively expensive for many artists, since the free program options like Gimp and Inkscape don't have a pantone swatch system built into them like the Adobe products do, as well as pantone color books not exactly being free. There's nothing wrong with the system the way it is, really.

cleverconveyence


quality posts: 1 Private Messages cleverconveyence
Oxyminoan wrote:Same. I find myself coming to this site less and less. I've purchased 28 shirts from woot since late 2009. 2 of those 28 were purchased in 2011...and neither were derby entries.

It's such a shame. I love the ideals behind this site, but it's become a victim of its own success.


See sig.

Number of shirt.woots in 08: 23 (not counting randoms and shirts bought for friends)
number of shirt.woots in 09: 2 (same criteria)

cleverconveyence


quality posts: 1 Private Messages cleverconveyence
melloncollie3 wrote:It's.... it's a turtle. With glasses. Have I missed something? Surely there's more to this design than simply that?


A turtle with glasses AND AN iPOD! DON'T YOU COMPREHEND THE GENIUS?

Number of shirt.woots in 08: 23 (not counting randoms and shirts bought for friends)
number of shirt.woots in 09: 2 (same criteria)

lyonscc


quality posts: 5 Private Messages lyonscc
elviswind wrote:Agreed . . . my shirt.woot buying has slowed considerable. There just isn't enough variety anymore. How many Facebook joke shirts have been printed in the last few months?


And how many frickin turtles and bunnies and kitties?

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

elviswind wrote:Agreed . . . my shirt.woot buying has slowed considerable. There just isn't enough variety anymore. How many Facebook joke shirts have been printed in the last few months?


In the last three months (a little over 90 shirts) two shirts were about Facebook.

lyonscc wrote:And how many frickin turtles and bunnies and kitties?


In the last three months, three shirts featured kitties and one shirt had a bunny and turtle on it. So roughly 4 out of 90. Hope this helps.

I've been keeping a tagged database of our shirts, but Shirt.what is a great resource for looking into how often something comes up as a print.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus

Aside from the common banter that occurs on RamyB threads, I'd like to ask something.

Is this even hipster. Admittedly, I have no clue what hipster actually means, but this doesn't seem to match any of the other shirts and the irony in some of them.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

FenStar


quality posts: 16 Private Messages FenStar
pantone

I doubt more than .1% of the people buying these shirts have a properly calibrated monitor, or a bunch of pantone swabs. A lot people actually adjust their monitors to over-saturate colors because they like the way they look. The argument may be valid for woot printing it, but it is not misrepresenting the colors to voters.

Still single, can't imagine why.

D3lusional


quality posts: 2 Private Messages D3lusional
kylemittskus wrote:Aside from the common banter that occurs on RamyB threads, I'd like to ask something.

Is this even hipster. Admittedly, I have no clue what hipster actually means, but this doesn't seem to match any of the other shirts and the irony in some of them.


"Hipster" is so broadly (un)defined really practically any depiction of pop culture fits the bill. Also the hipster tag is applied so much at this point it's quite hipster to label things hipster.

Hammylink


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Hammylink
Oxyminoan wrote:Gotta hand it to you, you're the king of recycling.

Can't fault you for doing what works. The drooling masses eat up that turtle design, no matter how many times they see it.


Recycling is hip

______________________________________________

deadpool32


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deadpool32
ramyb wrote:Don't even bother asking what he's listening to :P


so what is he listning to???

thatrobert


quality posts: 26 Private Messages thatrobert
Re: Indie Turtle


I have no interest in any personal insults or battles here but wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

My first print (Sunset Tree) occurred before I was using pantones (heck, very possibly before Woot even told us to use them). They did an admirable job trying to select colors that worked but it didn't have the simple graduated steps of color I was shooting for and really couldn't have.

I always use them now and sometimes you have to compromise with color choices that aren't as optimal as what you could do without that limitation.

Woot is not going to require pantones for the derby because this is meant to be an amateur contest. As an artist, the only way you can have some control over what the results are of your final product is to restrict yourself to the same palette that the t-shirt will have.

elviswind


quality posts: 0 Private Messages elviswind
tgentry wrote:In the last three months (a little over 90 shirts) two shirts were about Facebook.


I count three shirts that involve the Facebook thumbs-up icon: Meh, Like, and Luke. One would have been enough; zero would have been ideal.

mogthemoogle


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mogthemoogle
Re: Indie Turtle


Man...there are a lot of drama queens out today...

mogthemoogle


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mogthemoogle
chumpmagic wrote:Trolling and stuff


You sir, are aptly named.

andrewborem


quality posts: 0 Private Messages andrewborem
Re: Indie Turtle


This thread is one of the more amusing exercises in irony that I have ever seen conducted with a serious tone. It's a derby to poke fun in the direction of hipsters, and the first reaction is for people to rage at ramyb because of his too popular or "genius marketing" designs.

Which is the generally agreed upon definition of hipster.

(disclosure: I love ramy's designs, which will make everyone I am directing this post at to roll their eyes and say "of course you are." I am okay with this.)

scarr1979


quality posts: 0 Private Messages scarr1979

I want this shirt

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