Derby 269: Worst. Job. EVER.

The One Eyewasher

We're still going to have to reject this

Rejected because: We're still going to have to reject this

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lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
Re: The One Eyewasher


Hey everyone - please vote again. For some reason, my original submission was rejected for "using photos", where there was not a single photo or illustration not of my own design used in this shirt.

This is really frustrating, since nobody had even suggested it (otherwise, I'd have given my work files to prove it).

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
lyonscc wrote:Hey everyone - please vote again. For some reason, my original submission was rejected for "using photos", where there was not a single photo or illustration not of my own design used in this shirt.

This is really frustrating, since nobody had even suggested it (otherwise, I'd have given my work files to prove it).


I bet you were rejected because you neglected to put a unicorn or rainbow in your drawing. Follow the rules please! lol

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
Re: The One Eyewasher


Well, if you do have evidence that this isn't a photo you might want to present it lest this just get rejected again.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

tjschaeffer


quality posts: 7 Private Messages tjschaeffer
Re: The One Eyewasher


You definitely got a raw deal. It doesn't look to me like any photos were used. Revoted.

deesbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deesbar
tomspc wrote:I bet you were rejected because you neglected to put a unicorn or rainbow in your drawing. Follow the rules please! lol


LOL. That's funny

ochopika


quality posts: 25 Private Messages ochopika
bluetuba wrote:Well, if you do have evidence that this isn't a photo you might want to present it lest this just get rejected again.


I agree you should do this. It looks like you drew the window washer by hand. You should prove it with a sketch or something.

Maybe the rejectionator is thinking about the fire, is that all hand-drawn? Sometimes things get rejected if they use a brush that is made from photos... not saying that's what you did, but maybe that's what it looks like.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
ochopika wrote:I agree you should do this. It looks like you drew the window washer by hand. You should prove it with a sketch or something.

Maybe the rejectionator is thinking about the fire, is that all hand-drawn? Sometimes things get rejected if they use a brush that is made from photos... not saying that's what you did, but maybe that's what it looks like.


If Woot had questions about this design they should have contacted the artist before just rejecting it and saying "looks like a photo". Look at all the votes that were lost. Every week I see a lot of questionable designs that I feel certain weren't hand sketched, I don't see those being rejected.

odysseyroc


quality posts: 33 Private Messages odysseyroc
Re: The One Eyewasher


I don't know about photos, but the window washer appears to be a trace of this.





lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
tomspc wrote:I bet you were rejected because you neglected to put a unicorn or rainbow in your drawing. Follow the rules please! lol


Brilliant! I should have thought of that.

A burning unicorn, falling through a rainbow coming out of the eye (just to stay in the theme of the design).

bluetuba wrote:Well, if you do have evidence that this isn't a photo you might want to present it lest this just get rejected again.


I have - I emailed it to them (jpgs of my illustrator scratch files, before applying the gradients).

Also, I figured that using the same gradient process on the title of the design (and to animate my "Vote" banner), would make it obvious I didn't use a photo.

I guess I was wrong on that score.

tjschaeffer wrote:You definitely got a raw deal. It doesn't look to me like any photos were used. Revoted.


Thanks! Just frustrated that I wasn't even asked, since nobody produced any "photos" it was supposedly made from. I purposely did not use the same design as the movie (the LotR eye is round, and uses a different color progression and iris style/pattern), just to avoid such accusations.

ochopika wrote:Maybe the rejectionator is thinking about the fire, is that all hand-drawn? Sometimes things get rejected if they use a brush that is made from photos... not saying that's what you did, but maybe that's what it looks like.

That's what I figured (that they're thinking about the fire).

The fire is all made from gradient patterns.

Thanks again, y'all

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
odysseyroc wrote:I don't know about photos, but the window washer appears to be a trace of this.


Odyssey - I provided my base files. The window washer is in the same position as that guy (body position), but has a different squeegee and gear. Most of that gets blurred out by the fire, though.

benjaminleebates


quality posts: 5 Private Messages benjaminleebates
ochopika wrote:I agree you should do this. It looks like you drew the window washer by hand. You should prove it with a sketch or something.

Maybe the rejectionator is thinking about the fire, is that all hand-drawn? Sometimes things get rejected if they use a brush that is made from photos... not saying that's what you did, but maybe that's what it looks like.


I've seen, that if a halftone LOOKS like a photo, then it's beyond their ability to print. This could be the case here, just worded differently.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
benjaminleebates wrote:I've seen, that if a halftone LOOKS like a photo, then it's beyond their ability to print. This could be the case here, just worded differently.


Hmmmmm.

The halftone conversion I used for the Shirt Comp is at their specifications for Photoshop halftones, and the AI file I gave them has all gradients (which they convert to halftones).

It's really not that complex of a design on the back end (1 object of each of the five colors, and 1 gradient layer for each color, with % gradients between 10 and 90). They have still not replied, but hopefully they will.

odysseyroc


quality posts: 33 Private Messages odysseyroc
lyonscc wrote:Odyssey - I provided my base files. The window washer is in the same position as that guy (body position), but has a different squeegee and gear. Most of that gets blurred out by the fire, though.


Here it is overlayed. Everything fits pefectly.





lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
odysseyroc wrote:Here it is overlayed. Everything fits pefectly.


Odyssey - I did look at that image as a reference (not as a trace) when I was making the "washer-guy", but his left arm is different (nothing being held in it, and it's in a different position), the right arm is different, and the squeegee is a different design and about 25% longer, the shading is different, and I didn't try to make pant legs or anything for him.

It's hard to tell some of the details, because most of the body is obscured in the flames, but I've never heard of anything being an issue with using a reference image, so long as you're not tracing or totally duplicating it.

growgreen


quality posts: 0 Private Messages growgreen
lyonscc wrote:Odyssey - I did look at that image as a reference (not as a trace) when I was making the "washer-guy", but his left arm is different (nothing being held in it, and it's in a different position), the right arm is different, and the squeegee is a different design and about 25% longer, the shading is different, and I didn't try to make pant legs or anything for him.

It's hard to tell some of the details, because most of the body is obscured in the flames, but I've never heard of anything being an issue with using a reference image, so long as you're not tracing or totally duplicating it.


Okay Vanilla, I guess your right, Ice Ice Baby is NOTHING like Under Pressure from Queen... lol

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
growgreen wrote:Okay Vanilla, I guess your right, Ice Ice Baby is NOTHING like Under Pressure from Queen... lol


Well, I did agree with Queen in that particular case, though I'm not quite sure there's a parallel here.

In this particular case, we're talking about the outline of a human body in a reaching position. I could have just pulled up DAZ Poser, or taken a picture of a family member in the same position as a reference.

This is more along the lines of the "4 Chord Song".

cmdixon2


quality posts: 21 Private Messages cmdixon2
lyonscc wrote:For some reason, my original submission was rejected for "using photos", where there was not a single photo or illustration not of my own design used in this shirt.


You can't seriously walk back such an absolute statement with the excuse of "the squeegee is a different design."

A silhouetted version of the above-posted graphic (similar to yours) is on the first page of a google image search for "window washer illustration". The original is just a bit further down on page 4.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
cmdixon2 wrote:You can't seriously walk back such an absolute statement with the excuse of "the squeegee is a different design."

A silhouetted version of the above-posted graphic (similar to yours) is on the first page of a google image search for "window washer illustration". The original is just a bit further down on page 4.


I'm not sure I used either of those specific ones as my ref - it was a colored one, but the same general outline (with body detail like Odyssey's)

Again - the arms, the squeegee, and the legs are different, and it was drawn (not traced) on top of a hand-drawn scaffold.

In his overlay (which is done at an awful resolution), you can see that the left arm, the cap and the squeegee's are different.

[Edit: Question - obviously, most of the shirt designs here are not drawn purely from the ether with no real-life reference subject, be it a photo, drawing, real-life object or image of some sort.

If you use a reference image, like a photo of a bowl of fruit, and put the pen to paper (or vectors to whiteboard) as a general outline you're working with, is the work you're incorporating that reference into legitimately "yours", artistically?

If you hear a chord progression you like, use it in a song with different lyrics and melody, is it "your" song, artistically?]

hcschmidt


quality posts: 0 Private Messages hcschmidt
Re: The One Eyewasher


Well I was not originally going to vote for this one, even though it is awesome and I love LofR, but it is not one I would wear. But seeing all the strife your are getting over this I am casting a vote for you, i dont see how they think it is a picture and I dont see anything wrong with using a reference picture as long as you dont trace. There is my two cents and my vote, Good Luck!

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
hcschmidt wrote:Well I was not originally going to vote for this one, even though it is awesome and I love LofR, but it is not one I would wear. But seeing all the strife your are getting over this I am casting a vote for you, i dont see how they think it is a picture and I dont see anything wrong with using a reference picture as long as you dont trace. There is my two cents and my vote, Good Luck!


Thank you very much!

nikoby


quality posts: 0 Private Messages nikoby

As an artist, I would not be happy seeing someone "draw" over my illustration, adding little modifications, and calling it their own. Whether you use live trace on illustrator or "draw" over it, a trace is a trace. Granted, if it were a minor element to the design, I don't think people would be as upset. But the character is what the point of the shirt is. If you would have doubts contacting the original creator and asking for permission, I wouldn't do it at all.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
nikoby wrote:As an artist, I would not be happy seeing someone "draw" over my illustration, adding little modifications, and calling it their own. Whether you use live trace on illustrator or "draw" over it, a trace is a trace. Granted, if it were a minor element to the design, I don't think people would be as upset. But the character is what the point of the shirt is. If you would have doubts contacting the original creator and asking for permission, I wouldn't do it at all.


I can understand that.

In this case, the only thing that is the same is the body posture (arms, legs, props, etc. are differently positioned), which was all I was after, since it would be covered in flames, and no longer anything like the original.

If someone wanted to use an element of one of my designs (or one of my photos, for that matter, since I've got thousands of those) as a reference for their own design, I'd have absolutely no problem (nor a desire for credit) with that. (Kind of like going back to the chord-progression example, since I've been a musician for almost 40 years...)

ochopika


quality posts: 25 Private Messages ochopika
tomspc wrote:If Woot had questions about this design they should have contacted the artist before just rejecting it and saying "looks like a photo". Look at all the votes that were lost. Every week I see a lot of questionable designs that I feel certain weren't hand sketched, I don't see those being rejected.


The rejectionator can be a fickle beast.

BootsBoots


quality posts: 37 Private Messages BootsBoots
Re: The One Eyewasher


If you can look at an image and make an exact replica freehand, that's an amazing feat. Truly amazing. I don't know anyone that can do that with any consistency, so my hat is off if that's what you've been doing. I don't like to take off my hat. It makes me look sexy.

Anyway... I don't think it really matters if you drew the image just by looking at a reference or not. Whether you're live tracing, sketching over, or drawing something completely freehand, if it ends up looking exactly like your reference image, then you've copied someone else's work. It's not yours to use.

lyonscc wrote:If someone wanted to use an element of one of my designs (or one of my photos, for that matter, since I've got thousands of those) as a reference for their own design, I'd have absolutely no problem (nor a desire for credit) with that.

Yes, well... I have absolutely no problem with people calling me an teacher's pet, but I know most people really don't take kindly to that, so I refrain from calling out every teacher's pet that I see.


ochopika


quality posts: 25 Private Messages ochopika
BootsBoots wrote:Anyway... I don't think it really matters if you drew the image just by looking at a reference or not. Whether you're live tracing, sketching over, or drawing something completely freehand, if it ends up looking exactly like your reference image, then you've copied someone else's work. It's not yours to use.


Yea... now that I see the evidence it is tough for me to defend your drawing as original, even if it is a good design. It's better to reference many different images and make your design based on your observations. Copying one image in any form isn't the same as "using a reference" in art.

lloyd2002


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lloyd2002
Re: The One Eyewasher


Tough luck there.

You've GMV again, and I wouldn't worry about the complainers - maybe nobody's noticed, but the small figure they are complaining about is completely covered in flames. Maybe they should spend more energy on designs that have silhouettes from Jurassic Park or other obvious sources, than half a figure shrouded in flames.

You could take a picture of me with one arm up in the air and superimpose that graphic over me at that resolution.

Good luck.

Drakxxx


quality posts: 16 Private Messages Drakxxx
Re: The One Eyewasher


You best bet is to always keep it original. Theres been a lot of issues with shirts getting pulled down after they go on sale and all sorts of other legal stuff on here.


lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
ochopika wrote:The rejectionator can be a fickle beast.

Aye, that it can...

BootsBoots wrote:Anyway... I don't think it really matters if you drew the image just by looking at a reference or not. Whether you're live tracing, sketching over, or drawing something completely freehand, if it ends up looking exactly like your reference image, then you've copied someone else's work. It's not yours to use.


Understood - I really didn't (and still don't) think it looked like the reference image, aside from the pose, especially after adding in the other design elements. I wasn't trying to duplicate the reference, just the general pose of a man reaching up with one arm, holding a squeegee. When viewed at such a small resolution, it looks much closer than it did before adding all the gradients, shadows, fire, etc.

lloyd2002 wrote:Tough luck there.

You've GMV again, and I wouldn't worry about the complainers - maybe nobody's noticed, but the small figure they are complaining about is completely covered in flames. Maybe they should spend more energy on designs that have silhouettes from Jurassic Park or other obvious sources, than half a figure shrouded in flames.

You could take a picture of me with one arm up in the air and superimpose that graphic over me at that resolution.

Good luck.


Thanks. I agree with your last point, especially. (Well, at least if you're an adult of medium build).

Drakxxx wrote:You best bet is to always keep it original. Theres been a lot of issues with shirts getting pulled down after they go on sale and all sorts of other legal stuff on here.


That really gets to the heart of the question I asked, way above.

At what point is it "keeping it original" if you need to see a reference? I don't have a tablet, and I have a hard time just "drawing something" without seeing some examples of it. Once I see something, though, I can do a decent job of mocking up a new version of it.

At what point is this "copying" vs. "keeping it original"?

I mean, we have entire designs in recent history comprised almost completely of as-is clip art, and other designs with obvious traces, and I see no complaints about those. But here, I mimicked the posture of a figure - with some significant differences in the details - and some folks act as if it's a crime.

What am I missing here?

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
lyonscc wrote:Once I see something, though, I can do a decent job of mocking up a new version of it.

At what point is this "copying" vs. "keeping it original"?


Yeah, you did a *really* good job of copying it. The image above is something I've seen happen plenty of times with other artists who trace photos and it's pretty damning evidence. People are getting on your case because ALOT of your entries look like photos. You arguing about the line between stealing and not stealing rubs alot of people the wrong way. You are an artist right? You can draw something without making it look identical to your reference, and no I don't just mean making his arm a little longer or removing the clipboard he was holding.

lyonscc wrote:I mean, we have entire designs in recent history comprised almost completely of as-is clip art


Is that clip-art? Alot of his work looks like spacy silhouettes of things and I'll betcha he draws them himself. Kharmazero has never been rejected for using clip art, but you have.

If you've detected photo tracing and clip art in other people's entries feel free to call them out on it and provide the evidence. They should all be rejected.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

collinvh


quality posts: 61 Private Messages collinvh
Re: The One Eyewasher


I think woot says it best (from the daily submission page)

"Reference Images

(check box) Yes, this design makes use of clip art, photos, traced photos or hand-drawn renditions of existing images

(check box) No, this design does NOT make use of clip art, photos, traced photos or hand-drawn renditions of existing images

if yes, we need direct links to each image source. we must be able to obtain the commercial rights to all images, so even if you think they're ok, we need to be certain."

If "yes", not for a derby entry. If "no" it is good to go.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
bluetuba wrote:Yeah, you did a *really* good job of copying it. The image above is something I've seen happen plenty of times with other artists who trace photos and it's pretty damning evidence. People are getting on your case because ALOT of your entries look like photos. You arguing about the line between stealing and not stealing rubs alot of people the wrong way. You are an artist right? You can draw something without making it look identical to your reference, and no I don't just mean making his arm a little longer or removing the clipboard he was holding.

Actually, the fit between the two isn't all that great. I used the brush tool when trying to draw it, and I wasn't all that concerned about details, beyond the shape.

I didn't know the hand would be blurred out, but I had drawn a towel for him in his left hand (more like a blob) and had it placed lower (like it was coming out of his pocket).

I also wanted him to look like he was stretching out more, to reach, so I drew the other limbs differently, as well.

On top of that, I didn't use any of the internal detail, just an outline (because I wasn't trying to make an exact copy, just a man reaching up with a squeegee). I was truly asking a philosophical question (looking for a 'rule of thumb') as to what is considered "original" - because that is a term that gets bandied about here, and seems to mean different things to different people. I'm not trying to "argue about the line between stealing and not stealing" - I am truly trying to understand how we define "original" so that I don't "rub people the wrong way". I am probably being naive, I realize, because I let people use my photos, music, and designs for whatever they want to use them for (like the designs I gave to theonering.net - a great place to link for LotR/Hobbit info, BtW - for SD Comic Con and for DragonCon). This is far, far more about the fun of designing and the challenge of a short timeline than it is about money. But it's not fun to upset folks, or be seen as a "rulebreaker" - which is why I've been asking questions.

As for using photos - I used some of my own photos as models (which should be fair game, since I took them) - particularly the shot of the Statue of Liberty. And in that case, I used it to get the different shaded areas, and then crosshatched them w/ brushes I had created. I fail to see how that is "stealing" or "cheating" or putting photos in the design. A couple of my other designs were rejected because my hatches were vector brushes, not hand-drawn (I guess), that I used as fills.

As for being an "artist", I haven't had an art class since 7th grade (30 years ago), but I've been a musician forever. By trade I am an engineer, and I've had to take on graphic design roles in my work and for some philanthropic organizations I belong to. My wife has a degree in design, so I have personal copies of Illustrator and Photoshop, which I've self-taught for the past couple of years. So I do have to either see something to draw it, electronically (though I can physically draw, so I just need to get a tablet and figure out how to use it).

As an engineer, though, I have had to learn all sorts of things about math, programming and efficiency, so I've been able to build some filters, brushes and symbols to speed up the process, and improve my designs.

The next thing I want to do is learn more how to draw cartoons, but I'm leaving for Tanzania this week for a couple of weeks (to help teach microfinance and English as part of a philanthropic trip sponsored by my employer), so I've been holding off on learning that until later this year.

A few weeks ago, I learned out how to make some more realistic fire effects and how to somewhat quickly (in 6-8 hours) convert them from raster to vector graphics, so that's been my focus recently.

bluetuba wrote:Is that clip-art? Alot of his work looks like spacy silhouettes of things and I'll betcha he draws them himself. Kharmazero has never been rejected for using clip art, but you have.

If you've detected photo tracing and clip art in other people's entries feel free to call them out on it and provide the evidence. They should all be rejected.


The kharmazero design has dozens of models from allshilhouettes.com, including this pack and this pack, along with African aminal and landmark packs of silhouettes.

It wasn't until I used the one you linked to that I even knew that the use of clipart could result in rejection.

As for calling others out for the use of clipart, that tends to fall into the realm of creating conflict, which isn't really why I do this. It would be nice, though, to have the same standards apply to everyone. Someone in the kharmazero thread pointed out the use of stock illustrations and the powers-that-be didn't seem to care, so why create more waves in that thread?

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
Re: The One Eyewasher


You guys sure are dishing out a lot of crap about this design. Everyone loved it until it was rejected and instead of supporting your fellow artist you're beating him senseless. Let's take a look at all of the designs, a lot of them are clearly traced or clip art yet no one says anything and they never get rejected. Or even worse, using the same characters week after week just posed in a different way on the shirt.

What's the point of this? We all know this design is never going to print because he is clearly not part of the clique and he neglected to put a rainbow or some other cutesie crap in his design. Why beat him up when he never had a chance to begin with.

kevlar51


quality posts: 45 Private Messages kevlar51
tomspc wrote:You guys sure are dishing out a lot of crap about this design. Everyone loved it until it was rejected and instead of supporting your fellow artist you're beating him senseless. Let's take a look at all of the designs, a lot of them are clearly traced or clip art yet no one says anything and they never get rejected. Or even worse, using the same characters week after week just posed in a different way on the shirt.

What's the point of this? We all know this design is never going to print because he is clearly not part of the clique and he neglected to put a rainbow or some other cutesie crap in his design. Why beat him up when he never had a chance to begin with.


I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Lyonscc seems to fog more regularly than anyone else subbing these days. So if there's a clique, what's the benefit and why are you so sure he's not part of it?

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
kevlar51 wrote:I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Lyonscc seems to fog more regularly than anyone else subbing these days. So if there's a clique, what's the benefit and why are you so sure he's not part of it?


There are many who have been in the fog but never printed. It's the old carrot on the stick trick.

lloyd2002


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lloyd2002
kevlar51 wrote:I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Lyonscc seems to fog more regularly than anyone else subbing these days. So if there's a clique, what's the benefit and why are you so sure he's not part of it?


I don't remember seeing any of his shirts printed.

but that probably answers the question why the clique is attacking him. If he wasn't a threat - in the fog - he wouldn't be a target. Since the clique can already keep wins in the family with pick #3, he's got to come in first or get an editor pick.

Maybe tomspc is right and lyonscc just needs to create himself some turtle/bunny/penguin/panda/fish characters, and he would be golden.

Edit: I found one shirt he printed - the cannibal Donner one.

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit
Re: The One Eyewasher


I'll add my 2 cents. You're being singled out because you've been on the fringe of acceptability lately. A lot of your stuff has been relying on photos too much. It's quite obvious when a photo had been used, even if it's obfuscated with brushes or effects.

To go further, a lot of your stuff ends up looking mechanical, and lacks a human touch. Conversely, I think kharmazero's work always has that quality, which is maybe why he hasn't been rejected.

I've seen older stuff by you that I like a lot. For example:





These use the same techniques and aesthetic, but manage to feel "human". What happened?

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
Re: The One Eyewasher


Wow - leave for awhile and you miss a lot!

Thanks to all, even if you don't like the design and/or disagree.

orabbit - the one-color/one-line/drawing derbies have been frustrating, since I like to use color/gradients/halftones. I like this week's design as much as the ones you've linked to, though more than the ones from the past several weeks (except for Metamorphosis, which was lots of fun to experiment with).

Interestingly, each of the ones you linked to was a "test project" where I was trying to teach myself a specific technique (gradient mesh w/ April Showers, Magna-outlined characters with Cenntipede, and symbols w/ gradients in Namarie). And this design came about because I'm learning how to create fire effects and translate them to a six-color design.

One of the primary things I use this creative outlet for is to learn how to use Illustrator better (so I can use it in real-world applications). I just started in Illustrator, other than basic shapes, last summer, and - because I really need it for my current job - I had to find a fun way to teach myself how to do much more powerful things with it.

The Donner Party design (my only win, as lloyd pointed out) was a family in-joke I designed with my family in the room with me - totally on a spur of the moment. It was also my first-ever rejected daily that I saved up until the time was right that the derby theme fit.

Looking at the designs you've linked, I will try to consider what I was doing differently (how I was approaching design), and see if I can move back that way.

As I've said, I do this because it's fun and is a challenge (which is why I really do want to play within the rules, which is difficult when the rules are unevenly applied). Thanks for your feedback - I will try to incorporate it when I get back from Africa next month (a scary and challenging experience, all of its own).

Shalom.

thePenrod


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thePenrod
orabbit wrote:I'll add my 2 cents. You're being singled out because you've been on the fringe of acceptability lately. A lot of your stuff has been relying on photos too much. It's quite obvious when a photo had been used, even if it's obfuscated with brushes or effects.

To go further, a lot of your stuff ends up looking mechanical, and lacks a human touch. Conversely, I think kharmazero's work always has that quality, which is maybe why he hasn't been rejected.

I've seen older stuff by you that I like a lot. For example:

These use the same techniques and aesthetic, but manage to feel "human". What happened?


He was replaced by robots?

He is an engineer, what do you expect? I've seen some of his shirts that I've loved and some that I really did not like. But different aesthetics are more/less pleasing to different people. The designs you listed are of the cutesy variety. Many of them lately haven't been. That doesn't make them less human or less artistic or whatever.

This is all much ado about nothing.

autsey


quality posts: 0 Private Messages autsey
Re: The One Eyewasher


I think as artists, we're constantly looking outside of ourselves for ideas, information, and points of view to help us develop our technique and personal style. On Woot you can see the influence artists have on each other after being exposed to weeks and weeks of designs. We do need to be mindful of the line where influence becomes infringement.

Looking at this submission, I do have a few thoughts. Your technique for creating a fiery eye is very cool! My criticism is the window washer doesn't work because it flattens the eye. Instead of a menacing glare emerging from the darkness, it looks like a billboard ad.

I appreciate that you are exploring your artistic point of view when you're not being an engineer. In general, you have a talent for the technical. But I still don't see your point of view as an artist. A nice image, but where are you in it?

My unsolicited advice: Grab a sketchbook and get out of the house or office. Just start drawing everything you see, and then try to draw what you think of it. You'll get more experience in drawing from life, and develop your artistic style. The more you keep at it, the less you'll need to use other images because it will be all about you.









bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
thePenrod wrote:This is all much ado about nothing.


Ignoring the clique conspiracy trolls I think this is about the fact that Lyon is entering an art derby with a very heavy reliance on photos, clip art, and digital manipulation. Not that that sort of thing isn't art and a very good skill to have in other places, but the woot derby kinda specifically asks to avoid that.

Maybe the best thing for him here would be to pair up with an artist who does the sketching and original design work and then he can jazz it up with his professional halftoning and digital razzle-dazzle.

They might just be the best pair since Drakxxx/Crescentdebris.

He says that everybody else uses clip-art all the time and it's not fair, but I don't see it (disclaimer - I'm not trained to) and don't think everybody else but him would be getting away with it every week without people mentioning something.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

citizencoyote


quality posts: 42 Private Messages citizencoyote
tomspc wrote:You guys sure are dishing out a lot of crap about this design. Everyone loved it until it was rejected and instead of supporting your fellow artist you're beating him senseless. Let's take a look at all of the designs, a lot of them are clearly traced or clip art yet no one says anything and they never get rejected. Or even worse, using the same characters week after week just posed in a different way on the shirt.

What's the point of this? We all know this design is never going to print because he is clearly not part of the clique and he neglected to put a rainbow or some other cutesie crap in his design. Why beat him up when he never had a chance to begin with.


I need to invest in a tin mine. Hats are all the rage it seems.

I liked the original submission, but Odyssey's evidence is sort of hard to ignore. I'm always disappointed when I find out an artist used clip art or other prior art in some fashion, especially when I know they're capable of doing great designs without it. Orabbit had some nice examples.

My advice: take your lumps, learn from this mistake, and move on. Unless a submitter is a blatant art thief (Seki, BlindDog) people here tend to forgive and forget.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
bluetuba wrote:Ignoring the clique conspiracy trolls...


I'm not "trolling" to provoke anyone, just stating the obvious. Everyone sees it, everyone knows it but no one wants to talk about it probably out of fear that they'll never get printed. So let's all go back to pretending it doesn't exist? We don't want to upset the clique, they might be unable to draw those rainbows and happy faces.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
tomspc wrote:I'm not "trolling" to provoke anyone, just stating the obvious. Everyone sees it, everyone knows it but no one wants to talk about it probably out of fear that they'll never get printed. So let's all go back to pretending it doesn't exist? We don't want to upset the clique, they might be unable to draw those rainbows and happy faces.


I believe I've mentioned before that I think you don't know what you are talking about. :P

You keep harping on and on about the cute conspiracy but you are just plain wrong. Does shirt.woot have cliques? Sure, every community does. But there is no clique of artists who win every week and actively seek to keep new artists down.

Who are the 2 best selling artists from the derby all time? Off the top of my head it's Ramyb (who's anime cute you hate) and Patrickspens. Are those people leaders of this clique you hate so much? Patrick very rarely posts and as far as I know isn't a part of the community here. Ramyb is a virtual pariah among the artists.

How can you have a dominant winning conspiracy when the top 2 figures clearly aren't in that crowd?

Furthermore, the only actual big clique I can think of that you might be reffering to are the "cool kids" in a way and in fact mostly don't do the saccharine cuteness you hate so much. I'll avoid naming names but if you'd been around the derby for longer than a few months you'd see this.

That single line unicorn shirt you were railing so hard against not long ago was drawn by Truffleshuffle, whom if you knew anything about, is about as far from a cutesy win hogging fat cat as you can get.

I am somebody BTW, who has spent years around here railing against the poorly drawn anime cute trend and pop culture pandering. I'm not *against* you because I'm for this cute conspiracy nonsense you've been spouting.

I just think you are new and don't understand this place yet. Most people lurk awhile and don't pop off about things they don't know enough about. :P

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
bluetuba wrote:I believe I've mentioned before that I think you don't know what you are talking about. :P...


You're right, I don't understand this place. I see good art come and eventually sold on other sites. I buy shirts from all over but I have never seen a shirt site as messed up as this one. I read the blogs and the same people are always promoting each others "great art" which looks like the same art they posted the previous derby. I stay here and vote for the people who have great designs. I have been lurking for long enough to know what's going on.

EDIT: And thanks for taking the time to keep up with all my posts. I'm flattered

odysseyroc


quality posts: 33 Private Messages odysseyroc
tomspc wrote:You're right, I don't understand this place. I see good art come and eventually sold on other sites. I buy shirts from all over but I have never seen a shirt site as messed up as this one. I read the blogs and the same people are always promoting each others "great art" which looks like the same art they posted the previous derby. I stay here and vote for the people who have great designs. I have been lurking for long enough to know what's going on.

EDIT: And thanks for taking the time to keep up with all my posts. I'm flattered


I'm a big believer in the whole "if you're going to talk smack, then just name names". I'm interested to see who you think is in or not in the clique, so we don't have to guess.





bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
tomspc wrote:You're right, I don't understand this place. I see good art come and eventually sold on other sites. I buy shirts from all over but I have never seen a shirt site as messed up as this one. I read the blogs and the same people are always promoting each others "great art" which looks like the same art they posted the previous derby. I stay here and vote for the people who have great designs. I have been lurking for long enough to know what's going on.

EDIT: And thanks for taking the time to keep up with all my posts. I'm flattered


Oh I think the derby is pretty messed up too and don't like most of what prints these days. But that's not because of some artist Legion of Doom pulling the strings. The community here is a tiny minority compared to the nameless masses who represent most of the sales and votes here. That's why simple cute, pop culture, and nerd references win so much.

And don't be too flattered, I just read the forums alot and have found your lunatic rantings have really stuck out lately. :P

But this conversation is off topic, we're supposed to be picking on Lyonscc here!

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

kevlar51


quality posts: 45 Private Messages kevlar51
odysseyroc wrote:I'm a big believer in the whole "if you're going to talk smack, then just name names". I'm interested to see who you think is in or not in the clique, so we don't have to guess.


*fingers crossed* I hate feeling left out.

autsey


quality posts: 0 Private Messages autsey
kevlar51 wrote:*fingers crossed* I hate feeling left out.


Ha! Love it!

artulo


quality posts: 13 Private Messages artulo
kevlar51 wrote:*fingers crossed* I hate feeling left out.


Oh! Can I join too? Pweeeeeeze?

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
Wow... Not sure how we got here...

bluetuba wrote:But this conversation is off topic, we're supposed to be picking on Lyonscc here!


Um... thanks?

ochopika


quality posts: 25 Private Messages ochopika
artulo wrote:Oh! Can I join too? Pweeeeeeze?


I bet you're already there, you have an adorable rainbow/sheep thing for your avatar...must be part of the cute conspiracy.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus
Re: The One Eyewasher


I love the internet. People defending blatant plagiarism = awesome!

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
kylemittskus wrote:I love the internet. People defending blatant plagiarism = awesome!


I think it means that some of us would rather have a cool plagiarized shirt than the usual sappy stuff.

fishbiscuit5


quality posts: 35 Private Messages fishbiscuit5
kevlar51 wrote:*fingers crossed* I hate feeling left out.


Am I in the clique? I want to be in the clique! I've never been in one before. It sounds cool.

grrlmarvel


quality posts: 12 Private Messages grrlmarvel
fishbiscuit5 wrote:Am I in the clique? I want to be in the clique! I've never been in one before. It sounds cool.


I don't know, I can't tell if it's good or bad to be in the IN CROWD... they weren't nice in High School you know.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
tomspc wrote:I think it means that some of us would rather have a cool plagiarized shirt than the usual sappy stuff.


Oh now you're just asking for it.

*hits eject button*

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
bluetuba wrote:Oh now you're just asking for it.

*hits eject button*


LOL couldn't resist.

lloyd2002


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lloyd2002
No tinfoil hats here. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

kylemittskus wrote:I love the internet. People defending blatant plagiarism = awesome!


I don't see anyone defending "blatant plagiarism". I see a pile on for no real reason.

The overlay way up there above doesn't prove anything at that resolution. Even at that there are obvious differences - and when you add in the rest of the design, I wonder if some people don't have better things to do with their time than try to nitpick the nerdy kids.

There are other designs higher up in this derby with coloring book images blatantly copied into them, yet we have guys here blowing up images 20X and trying to make pixel-width comparisons.

Madness.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
lloyd2002 wrote:No tinfoil hats here. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.



I don't see anyone defending "blatant plagiarism". I see a pile on for no real reason.

The overlay way up there above doesn't prove anything at that resolution. Even at that there are obvious differences - and when you add in the rest of the design, I wonder if some people don't have better things to do with their time than try to nitpick the nerdy kids.

There are other designs higher up in this derby with coloring book images blatantly copied into them, yet we have guys here blowing up images 20X and trying to make pixel-width comparisons.

Madness.


well put

sheenachu


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sheenachu
Re: The One Eyewasher


Sorry you are getting so much fuss over this design ...My husband would Love this so you GMV

BootsBoots


quality posts: 37 Private Messages BootsBoots
lloyd2002 wrote:No tinfoil hats here. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.



I don't see anyone defending "blatant plagiarism". I see a pile on for no real reason.

The overlay way up there above doesn't prove anything at that resolution. Even at that there are obvious differences - and when you add in the rest of the design, I wonder if some people don't have better things to do with their time than try to nitpick the nerdy kids.

There are other designs higher up in this derby with coloring book images blatantly copied into them, yet we have guys here blowing up images 20X and trying to make pixel-width comparisons.

Madness.


I'd be really interested to know who this "cool crowd" that is, and also specifically which designs make use of these blatantly copied coloring book images. I'm not trying to be cutlassy. I'd genuinely like to know. The vagueness isn't really winning any arguments.


BootsBoots


quality posts: 37 Private Messages BootsBoots
kevlar51 wrote:*fingers crossed*


Me too, but don't tell anyone. I don't want people to think I care. That would be totally uncool. Unlike unicorns (which I hear are totally in this season).


lloyd2002


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lloyd2002
BootsBoots wrote:I'd be really interested to know who this "cool crowd" that is, and also specifically which designs make use of these blatantly copied coloring book images. I'm not trying to be cutlassy. I'd genuinely like to know. The vagueness isn't really winning any arguments.


See the velociraptor thread.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
Re: The One Eyewasher


Rejected again. wow. I hope they get the rest of photo/coloring book users too

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit
Re: The One Eyewasher


I would like to address the Cute Clique conspiracy. It's hard to get printed. You have to have the rare combination of artistic talent and clever and universally appealing ideas. The people who have figured out how to do that keep doing it again and again, and learn from each other's successes along the way. It's easy to see patterns when you're looking for them. It's called confirmation bias.

Sure, there's a tendency for the usual suspects to socialize together, but that's just because artists are all secretly insecure and reclusive, and keep to their own kind.

grrlmarvel


quality posts: 12 Private Messages grrlmarvel
orabbit wrote:I would like to address the Cute Clique conspiracy. It's hard to get printed. You have to have the rare combination of artistic talent and clever and universally appealing ideas. The people who have figured out how to do that keep doing it again and again, and learn from each other's successes along the way. It's easy to see patterns when you're looking for them. It's called confirmation bias.

Sure, there's a tendency for the usual suspects to socialize together, but that's just because artists are all secretly insecure and reclusive, and keep to their own kind.


Every post you've put up has been so great. Well thought out and put. Thank you. Just, thank you.

I'm being sincere as well, since it's hard to tell on Woot.

eeveelvr


quality posts: 0 Private Messages eeveelvr
Re: The One Eyewasher


This is still BRILLIANT!!

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
BootsBoots wrote:I'd be really interested to know who this "cool crowd"


I said cool kids first I believe, and I was really just referring to a loose friendship of derby artists who are active in the community and talk shop in other places, maybe on blogs, on facebook, do collaborations together, those awesome occasional group entries, stuff like that.

But it's certainly not some kind of paranoid fantasy power bloc that wins all the time and controls the voting.

Lots of artists are in the cool kids club and it's open to anybody who's active in the derby, knowledgeable about art, e-social and isn't a total cutlasswad.

If I were to ask, "Hey, I haven't seen JadenKale in forever, what's she up to?" a bunch of you guys would probably know. Nothing wrong with that, it's called a community and it's a good warm and fuzzy thing.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
Re: The One Eyewasher


Also, on a completely unrelated note, I highly approve of Woot's new pirate themed filter!

Gaaar, Peter! piss Arrrrrr! seadog cocksucker motherArrrrrr!er hands cutlass ass buccaneer me hearties marooned sucks

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus
tomspc wrote:Rejected again. wow. I hope they get the rest of photo/coloring book users too


Like who?!?! We'd obviously "unnecessarily jump all over them," as well.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

autsey


quality posts: 0 Private Messages autsey
grrlmarvel wrote:Every post you've put up has been so great. Well thought out and put. Thank you. Just, thank you.

I'm being sincere as well, since it's hard to tell on Woot.


Yeah! Agreed!!

jessicar64


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jessicar64
collinvh wrote:
(check box) Yes, this design makes use of clip art, photos, traced photos or hand-drawn renditions of existing images


Question: I'm new here and not a great artist. I recall a product design class I had in college where we were supposed to draw our car - during class, quickly, with no reference image. Homework was to go home and draw the car while sitting in front of it. It was an eye-opening exercise for me. I've learned that my mental image of things is often distorted. (Like I said, I'm not a great artist.) If I want to make sure I get hand positions correctly, I have someone pose for me, or I take a photo of someone posing for me, and reference it. Is that not allowed?

Mavyn


quality posts: 22 Private Messages Mavyn
jessicar64 wrote:Question: I'm new here and not a great artist. I recall a product design class I had in college where we were supposed to draw our car - during class, quickly, with no reference image. Homework was to go home and draw the car while sitting in front of it. It was an eye-opening exercise for me. I've learned that my mental image of things is often distorted. (Like I said, I'm not a great artist.) If I want to make sure I get hand positions correctly, I have someone pose for me, or I take a photo of someone posing for me, and reference it. Is that not allowed?


Your own image is fine. But there are a million pics of the Golden Gate bridge. You will have a hard time making a drawing that would not look like one of them--even one you took--so come up with something else or be prepared to discuss it a lot.

And for those wondering why shirts lower in the fog are less scrutinized...it has nothing to do with the artist or a threat. Shirts below 100+ votes will not print, so why bother? Pretty much every artist who fogs has been subject to drama. Good competitors accept it and move on, either correcting or not.

My speech is not parsing. I am speaking in ellipsis.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
kylemittskus wrote:Like who?!?! We'd obviously "unnecessarily jump all over them," as well.


read the rest of the blog....Dino Cowboy for one

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus
tomspc wrote:read the rest of the blog....Dino Cowboy for one


I tattled on that one. Others?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

CYBERREQUIN


quality posts: 0 Private Messages CYBERREQUIN
kylemittskus wrote:I tattled on that one. Others?


I think the IT Crowd one.
I LOVE that show, but im pretty sure the 8 bit graphic of Roy and Moss has GOT to BBC copyrighted, it doesnt look any different from the opening credits from the show :/
I tattled on it even though id really want that as a shirt.

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