Derby #290: New Secret Societies
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Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts

Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts
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lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
Re: Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts

I decided to try out a new technique w/ one of my favorite quotable movies...

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit

lonelypond


quality posts: 424 Private Messages lonelypond
Re: Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts


just the right level of looks serious

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
orabbit wrote:GMTA.


Aye - I like both your original and your version 2...

I worked on this one late into the night, as I knew I was going to be out of town all weekend, getting away from the kids.

Thanks again!

lonelypond wrote:just the right level of looks serious


Thank you!

tjschaeffer


quality posts: 7 Private Messages tjschaeffer
Re: Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts


I had a Dread Pirate idea as well. Glad I didn't work on it, because between yours and orabbit's, I don't think there would have been room in this derby for one more!

thePenrod


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thePenrod
Re: Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts


Man there's a lot of hatred for you. Just read the thread for the other dread pirate shirt. I think you should design a secret society shirt around you and shirt.Woot (read the other thread).

People are sad.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
thePenrod wrote:Man there's a lot of hatred for you. Just read the thread for the other dread pirate shirt. I think you should design a secret society shirt around you and shirt.Woot (read the other thread).

People are sad.


Aye... I hadn't seen any of that (thanks, Christian /sarc).

Actually, it looks like two folks (maybe just one and an alt, who knows?). I'm not even sure what their beef is/was - I submitted this just before the Mrs. and I left for a couple of days of museums, away from the kids. I was pleasantly surprised it made it to the fog sometime on Sunday (a watched kettle never boils, I guess), as it was about halfway there when I checked w/ my Blackberry Saturday night...

(I've never made it a secret that I send my new entries out to the list you're on, and to my technie friend list in gmail. A number of other artists also post their designs on FB, or send out messages to friends to vote. It's not verboten...)

Who knows...

helo12


quality posts: 0 Private Messages helo12
lyonscc wrote:Aye... I hadn't seen any of that (thanks, Christian /sarc).

Actually, it looks like two folks (maybe just one and an alt, who knows?). I'm not even sure what their beef is/was - I submitted this just before the Mrs. and I left for a couple of days of museums, away from the kids. I was pleasantly surprised it made it to the fog sometime on Sunday (a watched kettle never boils, I guess), as it was about halfway there when I checked w/ my Blackberry Saturday night...

(I've never made it a secret that I send my new entries out to the list you're on, and to my technie friend list in gmail. A number of other artists also post their designs on FB, or send out messages to friends to vote. It's not verboten...)

Who knows...


Well I'm relatively new here so my analysis might not count for much, but I think people being upset has more to do with the manor in which your work accelerates up the rankings rather than you as an artist.

While it is totally legal and great to campaign your work, it is disheartening to others when yours surpasses theirs within a few hours and I think this leads to the conspiracy/secret society thoughts?

Take your Invictus design from last week for example, in all honesty it made for a bad shirt (I'm not speaking about you as an artist). That being said, it somehow shot up the rankings.

Like I said earlier, it's good to campaign, but I think the point of getting a vote shouldn't just be out of support for knowing an artist. A vote should signify that irregardless of the relationship to an artist, they would genuinely buy and wear the shirt if they were to see it in a store. For all I know, that is the case, I just believe that's what the beef is about.

So I'm not trying to make enemies or insult you or anything, I'm just offering my perspective on what has seemed to be brewing since I've been around. I think you have talent so I hope you don't take offense.

thePenrod


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thePenrod
helo12 wrote:Well I'm relatively new here so my analysis might not count for much, but I think people being upset has more to do with the manor in which your work accelerates up the rankings rather than you as an artist.

While it is totally legal and great to campaign your work, it is disheartening to others when yours surpasses theirs within a few hours and I think this leads to the conspiracy/secret society thoughts?

Take your Invictus design from last week for example, in all honesty it made for a bad shirt (I'm not speaking about you as an artist). That being said, it somehow shot up the rankings.

Like I said earlier, it's good to campaign, but I think the point of getting a vote shouldn't just be out of support for knowing an artist. A vote should signify that irregardless of the relationship to an artist, they would genuinely buy and wear the shirt if they were to see it in a store. For all I know, that is the case, I just believe that's what the beef is about.

So I'm not trying to make enemies or insult you or anything, I'm just offering my perspective on what has seemed to be brewing since I've been around. I think you have talent so I hope you don't take offense.


I'm a friend of Lyonscc but I've told him before that I have disliked some of his designs and really liked others.

But being a friend of Lyonscc, I know that the designs of his that do really well (a couple well enough to sell), it isn't because he has a ton of friends voting for him. His good designs do well. The others fall flat.

Nobody wants bad designs to win because nobody wants to buy bad shirts. But beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

helo12


quality posts: 0 Private Messages helo12
thePenrod wrote:I'm a friend of Lyonscc but I've told him before that I have disliked some of his designs and really liked others.

But being a friend of Lyonscc, I know that the designs of his that do really well (a couple well enough to sell), it isn't because he has a ton of friends voting for him. His good designs do well. The others fall flat.

Nobody wants bad designs to win because nobody wants to buy bad shirts. But beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.


I agree completely. People will always have different tastes, that's a part of everyone being unique. I don't want it to sound like an attack or like I'm the bitter one, but people have been beating around the bush for as long as I've been here so I figured I'd just tell him directly what I think the problem seems to be.

I know his pyro one received criticism, so I know people are not just collectively voting him up, but people have talked about it, sarcastically or not so I thought it was good to just tell him directly where I think the criticism is coming from.

Thanks for replying respectfully, I didn't want to make it into something that it wasn't. :-)

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
helo12 wrote:Well I'm relatively new here so my analysis might not count for much, but I think people being upset has more to do with the manor in which your work accelerates up the rankings rather than you as an artist.

While it is totally legal and great to campaign your work, it is disheartening to others when yours surpasses theirs within a few hours and I think this leads to the conspiracy/secret society thoughts?

Take your Invictus design from last week for example, in all honesty it made for a bad shirt (I'm not speaking about you as an artist). That being said, it somehow shot up the rankings.

Like I said earlier, it's good to campaign, but I think the point of getting a vote shouldn't just be out of support for knowing an artist. A vote should signify that irregardless of the relationship to an artist, they would genuinely buy and wear the shirt if they were to see it in a store. For all I know, that is the case, I just believe that's what the beef is about.

So I'm not trying to make enemies or insult you or anything, I'm just offering my perspective on what has seemed to be brewing since I've been around. I think you have talent so I hope you don't take offense.


I get that. Part of the thing is, I submit usually 2-4 shirts a week, and most never make it halfway up the rankings. The 'invictus' shirt was one I'd already designed a month or two ago, and I have a group of friends (and a few family members) who have a lot of sentiment tied up in that poem. I actually 'lobbied' harder with that one - sending it out to a group of another 20-30 folks, mostly from my college days, because I knew they'd like it and probably buy one if it printed. (And FWIW, I wish that derby had come a few weeks later, as I was trying to figure a way to halftone it to use less ink.)

When I design shirts that have references to fantasy works (LotR, especially), I have another group I send a message to. (I used to sell thousands of LotR trading cards, and I've still got customer lists and a long list of friends that are LotR fans - plus I still make designs for TheOneRing.net)

This week, I sent a link to my Dark Tower shirt to a small group of friends that are Stephen King fans. A lot of good that has done me, in terms of vote total, you can probably see.

No insult taken, and I understand. I was quite frustrated when I first started designing here a year or so ago, until I started paying attention to what the more successful artists were doing to promote their work (in Facebook and elsewhere). Most of them are professional (or semi-professional) artists with folks that follow their artwork. In my case, I am a Professional Engineer (a registered PE, actually, though I've not had to use my registration for years), with a large network of friends and family who are somewhat nerdy/geeky like me, so that's who I leverage.

Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design. In the case of the Pi Rho Delta one, I got a number of thumbs down, but submitted it anyway (as it was a college joke fraternity we used to talk about, and sentiment overrode good sense).

So, I do get what you're saying. I just don't know how to best act on it, other than to make sure that the groups I target for support are ones that would actually buy the shirt.

Thanks again, and no offense taken.

helo12


quality posts: 0 Private Messages helo12
lyonscc wrote:I get that. Part of the thing is, I submit usually 2-4 shirts a week, and most never make it halfway up the rankings. The 'invictus' shirt was one I'd already designed a month or two ago, and I have a group of friends (and a few family members) who have a lot of sentiment tied up in that poem. I actually 'lobbied' harder with that one - sending it out to a group of another 20-30 folks, mostly from my college days, because I knew they'd like it and probably buy one if it printed. (And FWIW, I wish that derby had come a few weeks later, as I was trying to figure a way to halftone it to use less ink.)

When I design shirts that have references to fantasy works (LotR, especially), I have another group I send a message to. (I used to sell thousands of LotR trading cards, and I've still got customer lists and a long list of friends that are LotR fans - plus I still make designs for TheOneRing.net)

This week, I sent a link to my Dark Tower shirt to a small group of friends that are Stephen King fans. A lot of good that has done me, in terms of vote total, you can probably see.

No insult taken, and I understand. I was quite frustrated when I first started designing here a year or so ago, until I started paying attention to what the more successful artists were doing to promote their work (in Facebook and elsewhere). Most of them are professional (or semi-professional) artists with folks that follow their artwork. In my case, I am a Professional Engineer (a registered PE, actually, though I've not had to use my registration for years), with a large network of friends and family who are somewhat nerdy/geeky like me, so that's who I leverage.

Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design. In the case of the Pi Rho Delta one, I got a number of thumbs down, but submitted it anyway (as it was a college joke fraternity we used to talk about, and sentiment overrode good sense).

So, I do get what you're saying. I just don't know how to best act on it, other than to make sure that the groups I target for support are ones that would actually buy the shirt.

Thanks again, and no offense taken.


I understand, there's nothing wrong with campaigning and it sounds like your votes are from genuine people that like the design and would buy the shirt. All you can really do is keep doing what you're doing. Democracy should prevail, so in the end what will win is what people want. I know I have a long way to go before mine get up there, haha. I'm glad you replied. Best of luck!

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit
lyonscc wrote:I get that. Part of the thing is, I submit usually 2-4 shirts a week, and most never make it halfway up the rankings. The 'invictus' shirt was one I'd already designed a month or two ago, and I have a group of friends (and a few family members) who have a lot of sentiment tied up in that poem. I actually 'lobbied' harder with that one - sending it out to a group of another 20-30 folks, mostly from my college days, because I knew they'd like it and probably buy one if it printed. (And FWIW, I wish that derby had come a few weeks later, as I was trying to figure a way to halftone it to use less ink.)

When I design shirts that have references to fantasy works (LotR, especially), I have another group I send a message to. (I used to sell thousands of LotR trading cards, and I've still got customer lists and a long list of friends that are LotR fans - plus I still make designs for TheOneRing.net)

This week, I sent a link to my Dark Tower shirt to a small group of friends that are Stephen King fans. A lot of good that has done me, in terms of vote total, you can probably see.

No insult taken, and I understand. I was quite frustrated when I first started designing here a year or so ago, until I started paying attention to what the more successful artists were doing to promote their work (in Facebook and elsewhere). Most of them are professional (or semi-professional) artists with folks that follow their artwork. In my case, I am a Professional Engineer (a registered PE, actually, though I've not had to use my registration for years), with a large network of friends and family who are somewhat nerdy/geeky like me, so that's who I leverage.

Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design. In the case of the Pi Rho Delta one, I got a number of thumbs down, but submitted it anyway (as it was a college joke fraternity we used to talk about, and sentiment overrode good sense).

So, I do get what you're saying. I just don't know how to best act on it, other than to make sure that the groups I target for support are ones that would actually buy the shirt.

Thanks again, and no offense taken.


I feel the need to address this so as not to be seen as passive aggressive. Chris, I've got no personal beef with you, in fact we had a nice chat last week. My problem is that it seems as though you're in an echo chamber. You've got a guaranteed vote bloc, so it seems as though every idea you submit is a hit. You're not getting the same feedback as other artists as to what works and what doesn't. If anyone else had submitted "Sammiches For Supermodels", for example, it would have struggled to break 30 votes, IMO, and they would have learned from that misstep. Or maybe I'm just out of touch with what the voters want. For example - do they want a Dread Pirate Roberts shirt? To look at your entry, yes. To look at mine, no. Are the two designs that different?

Anyway, I'm in awe of your voting network. I have to explain what Woot is to everyone I know, and convincing them to buy something to earn a vote has proved difficult. It's great that you have so many friends and family members that are Woot shoppers. I am jealous, and that is the cause of my passive aggressive comments.

lotsofgoats


quality posts: 3 Private Messages lotsofgoats
lyonscc wrote:Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design.


This sounds like the best way to make use of your network. The broad group here is more than willing to suggest tweaks, so I can only imagine what some more fine-tuned audiences would come up with when it comes to pop-culture references and the like.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
orabbit wrote:I feel the need to address this so as not to be seen as passive aggressive. Chris, I've got no personal beef with you, in fact we had a nice chat last week. My problem is that it seems as though you're in an echo chamber. You've got a guaranteed vote bloc, so it seems as though every idea you submit is a hit. You're not getting the same feedback as other artists as to what works and what doesn't. If anyone else had submitted "Sammiches For Supermodels", for example, it would have struggled to break 30 votes, IMO, and they would have learned from that misstep. Or maybe I'm just out of touch with what the voters want. For example - do they want a Dread Pirate Roberts shirt? To look at your entry, yes. To look at mine, no. Are the two designs that different?

Anyway, I'm in awe of your voting network. I have to explain what Woot is to everyone I know, and convincing them to buy something to earn a vote has proved difficult. It's great that you have so many friends and family members that are Woot shoppers. I am jealous, and that is the cause of my passive aggressive comments.


No problems, and I do understand the frustration. I think back to a couple of weeks ago when folks were upset with Walmazan's Cat science design that got, like, 25 positive comments in less than an hour (it seemed like). While some seemed to think there was something shady going on, it took me a few minutes, but I realized that he must have sent out some sort of blast communication to his network. Ramyb supposedly had a list of several hundred folks he could email to get tons of votes on most every design. (and FTR, I'm not claiming to be in their league by any stretch of the imagination - I am not - I'm just using them as examples of folks who I've observed using the social network to boost their vote totals.)

You mentioned "Sammiches for Supermodels". I think it was the tagline ("World Hunger Tour"), and the odd title that got the votes, more than the artistic design. (From a little bit of observation with a small sample set of non-artists, if you can get someone to click on the thumbnail to view your design, and if they even chuckle at the joke, chances are they will vote for it).

You probably didn't notice, but my Gardenian Rhapsody design (which I actually liked much more than the SfS shirt) finished the week with 40 votes. (And when it comes to "guaranteed votes" - my sister and Christian and some of my other friends frequently refuse to vote for shirts they don't like - and tell me they dislike them. My sister didn't vote for my Donner Party one that printed, and probably wouldn't wear it if I bought her one. My son owns two, and a bag. Go figure.)

Most of my designs don't go much of anywhere, especially if they're posted after the first hour on Friday. (Which, IMO, is still the leading factor in whether a shirt prints or not.) I honestly didn't expect this Dread Pirate Roberts shirt to do as well as it's done (and I hope I'm not jinxing it), simply because I submitted it almost a day late.

Looking at our two designs - I like your skull and the shading very much. I think mine is a little more in-your-face with the movie reference (and that it uses the plural, for English majors out there), and looks a little more "piratey". That's probably the difference, IMO.

As for friends that are Woot shoppers - I had all sorts of friends who tried to get me to be a Wooter for months before I bought anything. (Christian, thePenrod, above, finally got me to the dark side, and we would have Woot-off parties, where we tried to get B0C's). So, with Woot, I actually felt like I was late to the party. Part of this, I think, is because I was in the LotR card business and played in tournaments here in town at GenCon, where I hung out with the exact sort of crowd that woots.

One thing you probably don't see is that I have dozens of designs that go nowhere (and often, I will just pull them before the end of the first day with the red "x", if I think I can rework them for a later derby) - like the Dark Tower and Pi Rho designs this week. During the winter, I deal with insomnia quite a bit, so that gives me more time to design (and more chances to learn from failure). So, I do tend to learn from failure, but I try to shorten the learning cycle as much as I can...

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
lyonscc wrote:Ramyb supposedly had a list of several hundred folks he could email to get tons of votes on most every design. (and FTR, I'm not claiming to be in their league by any stretch of the imagination - I am not -


I actually see some similarities between you and Ramyb, and if you aren't careful you might end up as disliked as he.

- Designs deemed "less artistic" by the community (Ramy draws crude but shiny chibi or repetative swirl, you do graphic design and text but no drawing)

- Has large outside following that noticeably votes up entries

- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..

- Works hard to get around derby rules, themes, and the rejectionator

- Has fanboi posters that will vehemently defend and threaten critics, often on anon accounts.

- Has a loud hate club

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

fuzzzydunlop


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fuzzzydunlop
bluetuba wrote:I actually see some similarities between you and Ramyb, and if you aren't careful you might end up as disliked as he.

- Designs deemed "less artistic" by the community (Ramy draws crude but shiny chibi or repetative swirl, you do graphic design and text but no drawing)

- Has large outside following that noticeably votes up entries

- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..

- Works hard to get around derby rules, themes, and the rejectionator

- Has fanboi posters that will vehemently defend and threaten critics, often on anon accounts.

- Has a loud hate club


Whether you love him or hate him, Ramy makes designs that people like. He has the sales numbers to back that up.

People are mad because lyonscc's concepts are usually pretty bad, and he's not a good graphic designer. He's been called out several times for live tracing photos, denied it, then changes his story as more evidence comes out.

If he spent more time working at understanding how graphic design works, and just just a bunch of filters, and worked hard at becoming a good designer, people wouldn't be mad at all. There are several designers here who started out without much of a clue and through hard work became successful. With $1000 on the line, it's easier to try to manipulate the voting system than it is to do the hard work needed to become a respected designer.

Look at the voting totals in the last few months. 100 built in votes gives you an amazing head start on all of the other designs.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
bluetuba wrote:I actually see some similarities between you and Ramyb, and if you aren't careful you might end up as disliked as he.

Designs deemed "less artistic" by the community (Ramy draws crude but shiny chibi or repetative swirl, you do graphic design and text but no drawing)

I recognize that I need to use more drawing in my work, which is actually what I'm trying to learn (using vectors to translate my drawings from analog to digital). I got a nice Wacom pad for Christmas, and have been practicing with a number of sources to improve this. So I definitely recognize that I need to draw more and incorporate that into my designs. I didn't realize, though, that a lack of drawing was some sort of disqualification...

- Has large outside following that noticeably votes up entries

If 20-30 (sometimes with another 10-40 if the subject matter matches the interest group)is a "large outside following", Ok. I guess I see the most successful artists doing this, with a much larger fan base, so I don't see the problem. If my design were to win, I'm pretty sure most of the folks on my list would buy one (as was the case with the two shirts I've printed).

- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..


Not sure I see this. I usually don't post much at all, positive or negative - I'm too busy during the day with my job to read the boards most of the time. I'm just in bed with the flu today, so I've had more time to read (and sleep).

- Works hard to get around derby rules, themes, and the rejectionator

I'd disagree with this, but I know that I have had disagreements (primarily over IP references, IIRC). I wouldn't say that I try to work around the rules, but (as other artists have commented) sometimes you start with one idea, and by the time you're done, you've crossed some line in the week's rules.

I know there was the issue last fall with the Eye of Sauron design and my question about clip art that ticked folks off (completely unintentionally), so I've altered my design process so as to avoid this.

- Has fanboi posters that will vehemently defend and threaten critics, often on anon accounts.

You've got me at a loss here. I don't remember this ever happening.

- Has a loud hate club

Until this moment, I'd wonder about this, too. Maybe I'm oblivious, but until thePenrod said something awhile ago, I didn't know anyone was complaining about anything.

I am aware, though, now, and I will make sure that the folks I send email/tag FB posts to are folks who would buy the shirt.

Sorry if I've caused any offense...

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..

lyonscc wrote:Not sure I see this. I usually don't post much at all, positive or negative - I'm too busy during the day with my job to read the boards most of the time. I'm just in bed with the flu today, so I've had more time to read (and sleep).


LyonCC - you post a lot and every post is practically a dissertation. Thanks for the laugh!

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
fuzzzydunlop wrote:
(snipped rant)

Look at the voting totals in the last few months. 100 built in votes gives you an amazing head start on all of the other designs.

When I look back over the voting totals, I see quite a few designs with 60-80 fewer votes than the "100 built in votes" you seem to think I have. I do have some designs that did very well, and quite a few that went nowhere.

I'm always looking to improve, and you can't improve if you don't have a lot of failure along the way...

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc

Also, seeing how this causes strife, I'll cut back on my use of social media during the first several days of a derby, until a design has done well/poorly with the smaller community here...

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit
lyonscc wrote:Also, seeing how this causes strife, I'll cut back on my use of social media during the first several days of a derby, until a design has done well/poorly with the smaller community here...


You shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot. Do what you do, unless you want a truer picture of what the pure Woot community thinks of a design.

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
orabbit wrote:You shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot. Do what you do, unless you want a truer picture of what the pure Woot community thinks of a design.


I don't think it's so much "shooting myself in the foot", as it is with preventing the "echo chamber" appearance, etc. I'll still send it to family & close friends right away, buy leave the affinity lists for later in the week, if it's still doing well...

lyonscc


quality posts: 6 Private Messages lyonscc
Re: Inviolable Conclave of the Dread Pirates Roberts


Thanks to all who voted for this design!

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