Narfcake


quality posts: 239 Private Messages Narfcake

As for the writer's bio ... here's a question for Ramy that will reveal the truth ...

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

logicalcupcake


quality posts: 5 Private Messages logicalcupcake
Gregarich wrote:Is this http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=5230

noo...

it couldn't possibly be similar.

SO UNORIGINAL



What, so now that Nevermore's been printed, no other typography shirt can ever be on Shirt.woot ever again?

mukimuki


quality posts: 4 Private Messages mukimuki
elfdreamer wrote:You really think that the Copenhagen approach is related to and advocating bad science? You may not like their approach to quantum physics, and you may also disagree with them, but Instrumentalism has an advantage: you need to find a way to describe phenomena that you see. It gives us predictive methods that sometimes elude our ability to justify. Also it was not always in this direction. Take for example Bell's experiment which was meant to combat the hypotheses of the Copenhagen bunch... but when the ability to perform the experiment actually came to be, the results supported the idea of a "collapse" into a specific situation rather than the result having been established before observation.

The quantum world is a headache to think about, but it would be a huge jump to call everyone out who deals with it as a fraud.



This.

Most physicists are not coming out with "junk science" (a term which is just as often used to replace "science with which I/my company/my political party disagree" as it is to describe bad science). Faking or doing poor quality work can kill your reputation and career so the average scientist wants to avoid all that.

It takes a long time to get a PhD and become an expert in a sub-field. To expect the public, funding agencies, and politicians to understand the science and experiments without some sort of simplification is unrealistic. This should not be mistaken for playing "fast and loose with the facts".

I will say that there is a lot of junk written trying (and failing) to explain recent results to the general public. Those might make it appear that there's more junk science going on then there is because they'll write about any sort of b.s. they find. (One article I read was about a biologist who had proposed an idea that the writer/editors didn't seem to realize had been disproved by physicists about 100 years before!)

Regardless of what garbage is sometimes written about science, the average scientist is trying to do good work that advances human knowledge.

hutchgirls


quality posts: 0 Private Messages hutchgirls

This shirt reminds me of another one... or two...

KAZVorpal


quality posts: 2 Private Messages KAZVorpal
elfdreamer wrote:You really think that the Copenhagen approach is related to and advocating bad science?



From a hard science perspective, it IS bad science.

You may not like their approach to quantum physics, and you may also disagree with them, but Instrumentalism has an advantage: you need to find a way to describe phenomena that you see. It gives us predictive methods that sometimes elude our ability to justify.



That is the bureaucrat's excuse for it, yes. The end justifies the means...they appear to get short-term results more quickly, because they're ignoring the underlying flaws in their hypotheses, and treating disproven theories as proven facts.

But, in the long run, they've produced SLOWER results, because they get things wrong and then build on them, generation after generation, without understanding what their results even were, much less where they actually came from.

Instrumentalism would have us still believing dryads make willow trees magic, and the 6,000 year old earth is the center of the universe. It was the move toward scientific realism that dragged us out of such nonsense.

Take for example Bell's experiment which was meant to combat the hypotheses of the Copenhagen bunch... but when the ability to perform the experiment actually came to be, the results supported the idea of a "collapse" into a specific situation rather than the result having been established before observation.



Along with the dark matter/energy nonsense and the "proof" of black holes that may well be MECOs, this is a great example of what is BAD about scientific instrumentalism:

You say this is circumstantial evidence in support of instrumentalism, but in fact it's a sign of how something can be touted as "proof" when in fact it's just a reverse-engineering of the details of a theory, to fit the observed facts.

Dryads live in willow trees. Wait, scientists have found that willow bark makes people's pain go away, and willow shoots make tomato cuttings grow roots? Now that we think of it, that actually is proof that those dryads are giving life! Sure, we didn't predict it, in fact it contradicts our predictions, but upon looking back, it fits perfectly!

That is instrumentalism.

The quantum world is a headache to think about, but it would be a huge jump to call everyone out who deals with it as a fraud.



Anyone who violates the rules of hard science is, in a sense, a fraud. Their work is only ever accurate by lucky happenstance. This is as true of instrumentalists as of alchemists and astrologers. The difference is simply one of subtlety.

lachendwolf


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lachendwolf

I now want to write a story titled "The black observes itself." (But I shant. Shant steal.) EXCELLENT writing.

Pineapplesf


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Pineapplesf
KAZVorpal wrote:Anyone who violates the rules of hard science is, in a sense, a fraud. Their work is only ever accurate by lucky happenstance. This is as true of instrumentalists as of alchemists and astrologers. The difference is simply one of subtlety.



Quantum is a dirty and rather horrible model. No one disagrees with this. In fact, every single quantum professor I have had started their lectures with that. A lot of assumptions and simplifications were made, but this model has incredibly improved our lives (advanced much of our technology). Note that some of the greatest flaws come from the more "pure" mathematicians.

However, it seems you are complaining more about bureaucracy (capitalism) reaching into research and have chosen this as an outlet.

It is this way with all things. Not just science, but art, literature, economics, and psychology, just to name a few.

Just because it was approached with bias (had application and intended for a goal) does not make it junk... nor is fast and easy. But it does give results. Biochemistry... medication...etc.

Consider that it is necessary to have both to advance anything. People who will provide abstractions ("hard science") those that will apply it (instrumentalism).

woottoady


quality posts: 24 Private Messages woottoady

I'm worrying a bit about the type of chick that would be attracted to this shirt...

thinkingbox


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thinkingbox
woottoady wrote:I'm worrying a bit about the type of chick that would be attracted to this shirt...



That she might be smart AND attractive? I agree, that's a terrifying prospect. ;)

crazydoglady


quality posts: 4 Private Messages crazydoglady

Ahhhh... any shirt that provokes this kind of discussion is a must-have for me!

mspaeth wrote:I thought about picking this up, but can't get past the ramyb factor...




This is the only ramyb design I have ever voted for and the first ramyb shirt that I've purchased - I decided it was illogical to deprive myself of something I want because of "the ramyb factor".

schroddie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages schroddie
logicalcupcake wrote:What, so now that Nevermore's been printed, no other typography shirt can ever be on Shirt.woot ever again?

Maybe that's why it was called "Nevermore" hehe! (sorry, couldn't resist the joke)

Tzares


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Tzares

So epic >< instabuy!

collinvh


quality posts: 44 Private Messages collinvh

Love the woot description "With yet another win we’re one day closer to ramyb taking over the world. And it’s going to be all your fault." :D

KAZVorpal


quality posts: 2 Private Messages KAZVorpal
Pineapplesf wrote:Quantum is a dirty and rather horrible model. No one disagrees with this. In fact, every single quantum professor I have had started their lectures with that. A lot of assumptions and simplifications were made, but this model has incredibly improved our lives (advanced much of our technology). Note that some of the greatest flaws come from the more "pure" mathematicians.



What's important is that the state of the art in cosmology and theoretical physics today would NOT be a horrible model, if not for instrumentalist methodology.


However, it seems you are complaining more about bureaucracy (capitalism) reaching into research and have chosen this as an outlet.



...what?

No, in fact "bureaucracy" has no natural place in a free market. It's a natural result of coercion interfering in society, usually in the form of government. In other words, socialism (governments funding research, or setting up conditions where only non-profits and quasi-public universities really do) is the driving force behind the abandonment of the scientific method.

But it's that abandonment of actual science that's the peeve I'm petting, here.

As I said, it's Heisenberg's equation, not Schroedinger's, that needs to be on that shirt. Schroedinger was fighting specifically against the junk science of instrumentalism. I am paraphrasing him and Einstein...this violation of science was their main complaint, not the specifics of the spaghetti that it produced.


Just because it was approached with bias (had application and intended for a goal) does not make it junk... nor is fast and easy. But it does give results. Biochemistry... medication...etc.



No, it doesn't give ACTUAL results. What it does is give flash and bang. It lets the useless government/nonprofit funding vermin feel like they're getting exciting results, because the standards are so low that almost anything can be declared a success that requires more research.

killerdude23233


quality posts: 1 Private Messages killerdude23233

Resisting urge to buy totally awesome t-shirt. I am le poor.

gsmit114


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gsmit114
Narfcake wrote:Reminds me of Mr. Lincoln instead.

I added links for the shirt-reference impaired. BTW, all of these are known as Calligrams.




This one's a Cattigram :p

DianaSprinkle


quality posts: 100 Private Messages DianaSprinkle

First Day Sales: 4739

TheGolux


quality posts: 6 Private Messages TheGolux

Last wooter to woot: TheBlueLion
Last purchase time: Sunday, November 27, 2011, 11:59:30 PM Central Time
Order pace: 0m 18.256s
Woot wage: $3,751.36
Woots sold: 4731

Last wooter to woot: TheBlueLion
Last purchase time: Sunday, November 27, 2011, 11:59:30 PM Central Time
Order pace: 0m 18.225s
Woot wage: $3,751.36
Woots sold: 4739

Last wooter to woot: wacwacwac
Last purchase time: Monday, November 28, 2011, 12:02:31 AM Central Time
Order pace: 0m 18.256s
Woot wage: $3,743.52
Woots sold: 4741

First day sales either 4739 or 4741
quite a jump in last second sales!

elfdreamer


quality posts: 3 Private Messages elfdreamer
KAZVorpal wrote:


That is the bureaucrat's excuse for it, yes. The end justifies the means...they appear to get short-term results more quickly, because they're ignoring the underlying flaws in their hypotheses, and treating disproven theories as proven facts.

But, in the long run, they've produced SLOWER results, because they get things wrong and then build on them, generation after generation, without understanding what their results even were, much less where they actually came from.

Instrumentalism would have us still believing dryads make willow trees magic, and the 6,000 year old earth is the center of the universe. It was the move toward scientific realism that dragged us out of such nonsense.



You make these assertions, but I see no reason to believe them. I don't believe that scientists today are making more mistakes and somehow derailed from doing true science due to "instrumentalism." Also I think that a certain degree of instrumentalism is necessary for any science to be done, how are you supposed to create theories about the world without observing it first? Einstein did something incredible with the General and Special relativity, as he constructed it without the data that could prove him to be correct. This certainly gives him bonus points on what you call "Scientific Realism," which I looked up on wikipedia, and apparently is a term coined by Hilary Putnam in 1975 that refers to a specific philosophy of the role of science in the real world.

KAZVorpal wrote:
Along with the dark matter/energy nonsense and the "proof" of black holes that may well be MECOs, this is a great example of what is BAD about scientific instrumentalism:

You say this is circumstantial evidence in support of instrumentalism, but in fact it's a sign of how something can be touted as "proof" when in fact it's just a reverse-engineering of the details of a theory, to fit the observed facts.

Dryads live in willow trees. Wait, scientists have found that willow bark makes people's pain go away, and willow shoots make tomato cuttings grow roots? Now that we think of it, that actually is proof that those dryads are giving life! Sure, we didn't predict it, in fact it contradicts our predictions, but upon looking back, it fits perfectly!

That is instrumentalism.



I'm not going to comment on the proofs of dark matter, since I am not very familiar with the arguments that would support it and oppose it other than they are a filler to make up for "missing" mass in the universe.

But as for Bell's experiment, this is most certainly not a case reverse engineering. The quantum physicists had already had their argument with Einstein about "spooky action at a distance," and Einstein pointed out correctly that if quantum physicists are onto something, then there is a breakdown of locality. The experiments showed exactly that - the "spooky action at a distance" does in fact happen.

KAZVorpal wrote:
Anyone who violates the rules of hard science is, in a sense, a fraud. Their work is only ever accurate by lucky happenstance. This is as true of instrumentalists as of alchemists and astrologers. The difference is simply one of subtlety.



I don't know what your "rules of hard science are." Even scientists who don't create sweeping theories about all physics, but create theories that encompass smaller phenomenon... that take into account data and *gasp* modify it when they find that their current theory is inaccurate are in fact doing science. Useful science with predictive value and following the scientific method.

Pineapplesf


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Pineapplesf

KAZVorpal

You are being a Troll.

The stupid cat is used as an example of superposition of state. States are degenerate until observed. In solving for a state function one must solve each wave function, of which a probability is assigned (Ci*Cj.. which suck to solve for) of whether this state will occur.

In order to use Schrodinger's lovely equation on anything other than the completely silly piab, you have to apply this concept.

Yes, this is due in part to the uncertainty principle that Heisenberg proposed (But don't forget Boltzmann... he liked those distributions). However, this is an experimentally PROVEN concept (oh wait... science does come back to experimental results doesn't it). Both quantities can not be understood simultaneously due to interference caused by experimenter (measuring). The uncertainty is actually an established rule of science, 1/2 of the smallest measurement, h (makes sense actually).

While he may have been trying to give the middle finger to Heisenberg, the fact remains that this concept is ESSENTIAL to actually solving the Schrodinger equation for useful systems (thereby solving orbits and consequently deriving all of modern chemistry... but... that is kind of... a really small thing.)

So yes, it should be with the Schrodinger equation as that is the modern (and therefore enduring) use.


CLARIFICATION:

Einstein came up with most of his theories when dreaming and had to reverse-engineer them to make sense to the rest of the world.. some of which still have no logical underpinning (YAY!!! MADE UP ****!). (Read his biography)

Bohr and Schrodinger didn't like each other. Especially when Schrodinger completely stole Bohr's thunder. Seriously, not the best of friends. That means you are bringing up a bickering match between two little kids who argued for more attention from daddy.

(nooo daddy... I swear these little balls revolve AROUND the nucelus..)

Trolling requires more TROLLLLLALALALALA and cow bell... lots more cow bell.



colourcraze


quality posts: 1 Private Messages colourcraze

My cat's name is Schrodinger! Obviously I have to have this shirt.

starksre


quality posts: 3 Private Messages starksre
thinkingbox wrote:That she might be smart AND attractive? I agree, that's a terrifying prospect. ;)



Hey if you want someone like that wear the shirt to a high level physic class. Girls will swarm you

smklung


quality posts: 9 Private Messages smklung

This design is TOO original!

jamesbottomtooth


quality posts: 36 Private Messages jamesbottomtooth

nerdy states lit up on the map

elfdreamer


quality posts: 3 Private Messages elfdreamer
Pineapplesf wrote:KAZVorpal

You are being a Troll.

...

Trolling requires more TROLLLLLALALALALA and cow bell... lots more cow bell.



I'm not convinced that he is a troll. I think he may honestly believe what he is saying. So I thought that it is possible to show him that his vision of science history, and his perspective on the philosophy of science may not be the whole picture.

Laguz


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Laguz

So tempted to buy this shirt, but I will resist, or maybe I won't resist. As long as I stay in a state of indecision than both the realities will exist and I can both own and not own it at the same time.

scatterling


quality posts: 1 Private Messages scatterling

Cute!

andreathegriffin


quality posts: 0 Private Messages andreathegriffin

This is more or less a copy of the Nevermore shirt.

Narfcake


quality posts: 239 Private Messages Narfcake
andreathegriffin wrote:This is more or less a copy of the Nevermore shirt.


... and Nevermore came after Gettysburg Address. What's your point? They're all calligrams.

ReginaFilangee


quality posts: 8 Private Messages ReginaFilangee

When I got the email for the shirt.woot Holiday Gift Guide, I zipped on over there, hoping to order 3 tote bags with this design. Not available on a tote?! Egads, Woot Gods!!!!!
Please make it so. I cannot wear this t-shirt every day.

Well, I could, but......

May the Crap be with you all!!!

ReginaFilangee


quality posts: 8 Private Messages ReginaFilangee
andreathegriffin wrote:This is more or less a copy of the Nevermore shirt.



The Nevermore shirt was about literature, and a raven. It invokes (in me, at least) a feeling of appreciative solemnity. This shirt is about quantum mechanics/physics, and a cat. It evokes from me a smirk, and a nod of appreciation to an "inside" joke on a higher intellectual level. Everyone who went to high school gets the symbolism of the Nevermore shirt. Only those who studied (and understood) physics on a college level get the symbolism of this design.

Both shirts are indeed black *shrug*, and as many others have stated, are calligrams (not a new form of art by any stretch of the imagination.) Other than that, each is quite different. What differentiates them is what each represents, as I explained above.

Have I mentioned that I would LOVE this on a tote bag???

May the Crap be with you all!!!

Narfcake


quality posts: 239 Private Messages Narfcake
ReginaFilangee wrote:Have I mentioned that I would LOVE this on a tote bag???


I would actually go for one too if it happened. And that's really saying something, since I'm not a cat person, and quite selective of Ramy's designs (hence the shirts I still want to trade out). But I am a nerd.

So on the next go around, Woot? Please?

maxwellcofehouse


quality posts: 0 Private Messages maxwellcofehouse

speaking of both dead and alive cat, I got a second duplicate shirt from Woot.com! <3 Woot.com

sp4rkr4t


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sp4rkr4t

Speaking of a shirt in a quantum state mine has yet to arrive, I know deliveries to the Uk take a while but this is quite a delay.

Harbinger


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Harbinger

Hubby just opened this as it was a Christmas present. Instead of the 3X I ordered, it was just an XL.

Bummer!!!!

Can this be exchanged or am I out the money?

Narfcake


quality posts: 239 Private Messages Narfcake
Harbinger wrote:Hubby just opened this as it was a Christmas present. Instead of the 3X I ordered, it was just an XL.

Bummer!!!!

Can this be exchanged or am I out the money?



Take a pic and send it along with the issue and your order number to service@woot.com ... they'll take care of it from there.

Harbinger


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Harbinger
Narfcake wrote:Take a pic and send it along with the issue and your order number to service@woot.com ... they'll take care of it from there.



Thanks!!! I'll do that!

stream84


quality posts: 0 Private Messages stream84

I bought this shirt for a friend for Christmas. Then I had to buy one for myself as well. She loved it and knew exactly what it was when she opened the box.

tchiseen


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tchiseen
GenoGar wrote:Mandatory related youtube link.



-

The shirt reminds me of Nevermore... except it's mathematical rather than poetic... and it's a cat.

Glad this shirt made it.



Agreee. Except this shirt would kill 'Nevermore' and drag it into the house.

-=<0.0>=-

1starrynite


quality posts: 0 Private Messages 1starrynite

This shirt MADE. MY. DAY. We were just talking about parallel universes in my chem class today... or were we...?