Shirt.Woot

eHalcyon wrote:The problem is that someone new isn't seeing both sides. They are only seeing the rage of an angry mob. Unless they dig deeper to the root of the issue, they never get anything more.

I don't know if people have ever tried just being polite about it. Woot really has been silent for the most part, so one could presume that being polite and quiet wouldn't work either. But when insulting the other patrons works just as poorly, why choose to be abrasive? You can hope that your yelling sways some people, but you can bet that you'll drive away others who might be persuaded by a gentler tone.

Maybe talking to Woot doesn't help, so try talking to the other customers. Let them know what the problem is. Let them know that there are better options out there. By all means, keep up the conversation and encourage discussion. And through all of that, use some respect - even for the crazy fans who support that McDonald's employee who might not deserve your respect. There are many people who would listen if they think there's something worth listening to - yelling just makes you seem like the street corner doomsayer, raving on his soap box outside the restaurant.

In the end, it might only be because of Woot's hands-off approach (the very approach that people want changed) that all the vitriol and insults are allowed to continue. If you go into a restaurant and attack the people eating there, regardless of how bad the food is, you're going to get arrested.

I try to read your posts, really. But I end up passing. Hope that ok.

ChefRAZ wrote:I try to read your posts, really. But I end up passing. Hope that ok.

That ok.

yankeebird wrote:Did you mean Utah? Utah bought more than Nevada, and that's where Salt Lake City (aka Mormon Central) is.

[facepalms] i should know better than to try and make clever observations while sleep-deprived.

two cleches,l devil and angel, AND bunnies, nice going woot

krisrobinson wrote:It's a winner!



pudgy unicorns riding fat dinosaurs that are dressed like chubby lions

Awesome! I would totally buy this shirt! =D

Sold Out. Awesome! Your system is perfect. I guess I'll go back to my quiet mode again.

AdderXYU wrote:Yep. Totally Different From Anything Else.

What does the dude have to do with the shirt? Is that Gates without the glasses?

realbigkahuna wrote:What does the dude have to do with the shirt? Is that Gates without the glasses?

It's a picture of pretty much the same shirt but with actual shoulder placement. The concept behind this one is extremely overdone and the design really shouldn't have made it to print, since Woot is supposed to be about unique shirts.

You know, I'd really like to see Ramy reply to a subject like this. I don't understand how he can ignore it.

kylemittskus wrote:Do you not understand how hypocritical it is to complain about someone complaining?

Seriously, every time Adder (and others, he's often not alone) voice dissent, out comes ramyb's little crony mike with some ad hominem and hypocritical marginalization, often targeting Adder (which sort of makes sense, since he's the most vocal and snarky), but almost completely disregarding everyone else who expresses the same sentiments.

If I didn't know better, I'd say mike was projecting his own crush on Adder by claiming Adder has a crush on ramy.

had to get one for my woman, she wanted more rabbits for her chest

I so would buy a pudgy unicorn riding a fat dinosaur that is dressed like chubby lion shirt!!!

Vicarz wrote:I'm not sure what isn't fair...popularity?

Andy and several others have pointed out what's not fair. It's an overdone concept, and shirt.woot claims that such designs gets rejectionated for being similar to previous designs.

Vicarz wrote:If you're going to be mad about that - blow that steam into something more productive, like USian elections.

I'll have you know I canvassed for my candidate for 10 hours on the Sunday before the election in my area. On foot. In the very hot sun. I also regularly call my local representatives.

I have plenty of steam for all kinds of outlets, thank you.

Vicarz wrote:
Or, run a straw bunny for office.

The hell does this even mean/imply?

StillBeta wrote:You know, I'd really like to see Ramy reply to a subject like this. I don't understand how he can ignore it.

Can you really blame him? I know I would try to ignore the kinds of things said in this thread if I was the target.

(and for the record, I'm not talking about the constructive criticism some have given...but rather the venom-laced insults that seems to be what others have to lace their so-called criticism with)

StillBeta wrote:You know, I'd really like to see Ramy reply to a subject like this. I don't understand how he can ignore it.

Every time he has he's come off as a smug ass. He said we would change his style up a bit, yet he has yet to make good on his promise.

At this point, no amount of vitriolic remarks will ever be enough.

StillBeta wrote:You know, I'd really like to see Ramy reply to a subject like this. I don't understand how he can ignore it.

he has before, and no you don't.

eHalcyon wrote:
I don't know if people have ever tried just being polite about it. Woot really has been silent for the most part, so one could presume that being polite and quiet wouldn't work either. But when insulting the other patrons works just as poorly, why choose to be abrasive? You can hope that your yelling sways some people, but you can bet that you'll drive away others who might be persuaded by a gentler tone.
[snipped for brevity]

eHalcyon, I know you get a lot of scaffolding from the "tl;dr" crowd, but I want to let you know that I always find your longer posts interesting and thoughtful.

When things like today's shirt get printed even though anyone else would've been hit with the rejectionator for "similar shirts exist", I admittedly get pissed and lately I've been letting it show in ever more vitriolic posts. You've given me a little to think about, and I'll try to take a breath before posting up a snide remark from now on.

It'd just be easier if the woot staff gave some indication that they were listening. A less purely democratic derby selection process (for even a week!), more rejections for a high-selling artist when he or she breaks the rules . . . something. Heck, at this point, I'd take a week of killer editor's choices after the do-over. The last few times it was kind of lackluster, with only one or two really great picks each.

Anyhoo, just wanted to let you know that when you put up the big blocks of text, some of us are reading them.

IndependentVik wrote:

Anyhoo, just wanted to let you know that when you put up the big blocks of text, some of us are reading them.

However, because not everyone is reading everyone else's posts, there seems to be an over abundance of the use of the word "vitriolic" in this thread. :D

On a side note, I think it's always best to take a more calm and collected approach rather than the hate-filled, spite-fueled rants that many people seem to be putting forth. Hopefully enough productive conversation will come from everyone's relaxed sharing of opinions to inspire some change in a few areas. And if not, then I can confidently say that I don't think being aggressive and argumentative about the same issues would have produced different results anyways.

IndependentVik wrote:eHalcyon, I know you get a lot of scaffolding from the "tl;dr" crowd, but I want to let you know that I always find your longer posts interesting and thoughtful.

When things like today's shirt get printed even though anyone else would've been hit with the rejectionator for "similar shirts exist", I admittedly get pissed and lately I've been letting it show in ever more vitriolic posts. You've given me a little to think about, and I'll try to take a breath before posting up a snide remark from now on.

It'd just be easier if the woot staff gave some indication that they were listening. A less purely democratic derby selection process (for even a week!), more rejections for a high-selling artist when he or she breaks the rules . . . something. Heck, at this point, I'd take a week of killer editor's choices after the do-over. The last few times it was kind of lackluster, with only one or two really great picks each.

Anyhoo, just wanted to let you know that when you put up the big blocks of text, some of us are reading them.

The forums wouldn't be any fun without backhanded comments and witty insults. Really though, I just wish it didn't go so far sometimes. There are a lot of brilliant thoughts and ideas floating around here, but sometimes it gets drowned in the venom.

eHalcyon wrote:The forums wouldn't be any fun without backhanded comments and witty insults. Really though, I just wish it didn't go so far sometimes. There are a lot of brilliant thoughts and ideas floating around here, but sometimes it gets drowned in the venom.

I really can't be in agreement with any statement that implies Ramy doesn't deserve all the venom of a black mamba aimed at him.

I am but an adder. I can never deliver

AdderXYU wrote:I really can't be in agreement with any statement that implies Ramy doesn't deserve all the venom of a black mamba aimed at him.

I am but an adder. I can never deliver

That's not what I was saying. Deserved or not, some of the attacks go too far. You've said many times that the reason you stick around shirt.woot is to attempt to change it for the better. But some of your comments (and some comments by others) are simply destructive and do nothing to further that goal. I'd wager that they hurt it, actually. Those venomous words might rally the people who already support you, but others are driven away.

All the good things you have to say go unheard because the vindictive yelling is so much louder. Woot might not want to listen, but wooters do. If all they hear is anger and spite, they'll be apt to tune it out.

eHalcyon wrote:That's not what I was saying. Deserved or not, some of the attacks go too far. You've said many times that the reason you stick around shirt.woot is to attempt to change it for the better. But some of your comments (and some comments by others) are simply destructive and do nothing to further that goal. I'd wager that they hurt it, actually. Those venomous words might rally the people who already support you, but others are driven away.

All the good things you have to say go unheard because the vindictive yelling is so much louder. Woot might not want to listen, but wooters do. If all they hear is anger and spite, they'll be apt to tune it out.

I am venomous for the same reason any creature is venomous. sometimes, you must destroy things to rebuild them.

StillBeta wrote:You know, I'd really like to see Ramy reply to a subject like this. I don't understand how he can ignore it.

Because he's always damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

People get on his case for being defensive and sometimes getting a little harsh, which is absolutely ridiculous considering the accusations, let alone insults, that go his way on a weekly basis. Whether or not they're deserved, it's stupid to turn around and call him out on it.

And then when he doesn't respond, people get all huffy.

That said, shirt didn't deserve to print. Flat out. Woot's rejected for far less similarity than this in the past. Yes, to my knowledge, there are no other bunny angel/bunny devil t-shirts, but this adds nothing to the concept. Like...at all. There are a plethora of woodland critters that could be plugged into this equation, and by Woot's standard, none would be rejected.

Or, as someone snarkier than me will say, they won't be rejected if Ramy does them...

IndependentVik wrote:

It'd just be easier if the woot staff gave some indication that they were listening.

i think this would actually help a lot. the only time they seem to be listening is when they suspend someone

KaylaJ wrote:i think this would actually help a lot. the only time they seem to be listening is when they suspend someone

To be fair, those are mods, not staff. There is no reason to believe their opinions are the same.

.

AdderXYU wrote:To be fair, those are mods, not staff. There is no reason to believe their opinions are the same.

i stand corrected and for now i'll give them a pass...for now ;)

AdderXYU wrote:I am venomous for the same reason any creature is venomous. sometimes, you must destroy things to rebuild them.

For hunting, or for defense? I don't know of any venomous creatures that seek to rebuild afterwards.

That's an interesting perspective though. But as good as you are at what you do, I think the forest fire you seek has to come from Woot itself if the dead wood is to be cleared away (to use a different metaphor).

eHalcyon wrote:For hunting, or for defense? I don't know of any venomous creatures that seek to rebuild afterwards.

That's an interesting perspective though. But as good as you are at what you do, I think the forest fire you seek has to come from Woot itself if the dead wood is to be cleared away (to use a different metaphor).

one man cannot clear a dead forest for the saplings that need that light. But it doesn't mean they shouldn't burn what they can until someone who "matters" decides to do something on a large scale.

eHalcyon wrote:
But at the same time, there are better avenues of change. Violence and hostility are not the answers. Some people say that polite dissent and peaceful protest have not and will not work, that extreme measures are the only way to go. But I've never liked extremist thinking. And in all this time, has screaming at Woot and attacking the "McDonald's employee" helped? Not really. Maybe we should go back to being nice about it. Or maybe we should ask ourselves, "what else can we do? Where do we go from here?"

well i'll bit eHal. what do you suggest to change this site? what can we do short of leaving and never coming back?

AdderXYU wrote:one man cannot clear a dead forest for the saplings that need that light. But it doesn't mean they shouldn't burn what they can until someone who "matters" decides to do something on a large scale.

Controlled burns have to be carefully conducted by authorities. Used properly, they can promote healthy environments while reducing the threat of wildfires. If one man decides to just set fires wherever he can, it's going to go out of control. The dead wood might get consumed, but then everything goes to chaos. The verdant areas are destroyed. Homes in the surroundings have to be evacuated and authorities have to spend millions of dollars on damage control. And in the end, nothing good is left.

marmls2m wrote:well i'll bit eHal. what do you suggest to change this site? what can we do short of leaving and never coming back?

I admit that I really don't know. Keep at it, I guess. My main point was just that we could stand to be more civil. It may be hard to imagine, but it's possible to say that this design shouldn't have gone to print and explain why without calling everyone who voted for and/or purchased it a blubbering Dr. Clayton Forrester, whether that's true or not.

Right now, we're stuck in a quagmire of hate. Maybe if we're all show a bit more respect to one another, people will be more willing to listen. And if people listen, maybe they'll come to understand. And if people understand, maybe change will follow.

eHalcyon wrote:I admit that I really don't know. Keep at it, I guess. My main point was just that we could stand to be more civil. It may be hard to imagine, but it's possible to say that this design shouldn't have gone to print and explain why without calling everyone who voted for and/or purchased it a blubbering Dr. Clayton Forrester, whether that's true or not.

Right now, we're stuck in a quagmire of hate. Maybe if we're all show a bit more respect to one another, people will be more willing to listen. And if people listen, maybe they'll come to understand. And if people understand, maybe change will follow.

If you think respecting people who believe live traced photos are viable art, and feel that art should be a business and not, well, art, is worth doing, I don't know what to say.

It is clear to me that the average wooter has zero respect for quality work and creative work and simple respect for the people who can do it by only respecting the people doing the opposite. Have you noticed that, or are you too busy playing hippie-dippie devil's advocate and wanting a perfect happy go lucky world to have seen that the other side is no less disrespectful, and disrespectful while being on the totally wrong side of decency?

lets make little images that say "No to Ramy!"

AdderXYU wrote:If you think respecting people who believe live traced photos are viable art, and feel that art should be a business and not, well, art, is worth doing, I don't know what to say.

It is clear to me that the average wooter has zero respect for quality work and creative work and simple respect for the people who can do it by only respecting the people doing the opposite. Have you noticed that, or are you too busy playing hippie-dippie devil's advocate and wanting a perfect happy go lucky world to have seen that the other side is no less disrespectful, and disrespectful while being on the totally wrong side of decency?

Ramy's work isn't live-traced. That's not the issue I'm talking about. Even then, it's still possible to be civil. It might do you some good to try it.

"It is clear to me that the average wooter has zero respect for quality work and creative work and simple respect for the people who can do it by only respecting the people doing the opposite."

I think you missed a few words there or tacked a few too many on; the sentence doesn't make sense.

I'm not playing devil's advocate now. I'm saying that bandying about insults is fruitless and even harmful to the growth and improvement of the site. The assertion is independent of which side you're on - whether you're arguing for or against whatever issue, fanatic and caustic commentary simply isn't helpful. That the "other side is no less disrespectful" is just another side of the problem which I'm speaking against. If you think I'm defending those people, you are sorely mistaken.

And really, that's no excuse for doing the same thing. It's a childish argument; sinking to their level is not the way to make positive change. Someone has to rise above. Or is it too difficult to make a point without some derisive ad hominem comments?

eHalcyon wrote:Ramy's work isn't live-traced. That's not the issue I'm talking about. Even then, it's still possible to be civil. It might do you some good to try it.

"It is clear to me that the average wooter has zero respect for quality work and creative work and simple respect for the people who can do it by only respecting the people doing the opposite."

I think you missed a few words there or tacked a few too many on; the sentence doesn't make sense.

I'm not playing devil's advocate now. I'm saying that bandying about insults is fruitless and even harmful to the growth and improvement of the site. The assertion is independent of which side you're on - whether you're arguing for or against whatever issue, fanatic and caustic commentary simply isn't helpful. That the "other side is no less disrespectful" is just another side of the problem which I'm speaking against. If you think I'm defending those people, you are sorely mistaken.

And really, that's no excuse for doing the same thing. It's a childish argument; sinking to their level is not the way to make positive change. Someone has to rise above. Or is it too difficult to make a point without some derisive ad hominem comments?

Then be the one. If you're so damned smart, be the one. See how fast people turn on you when you utter even the gentlest whisper of the idea that maybe, just maybe, woot is leaning too hard on the ignorant button and not hard enough on the creative one. What a crying shame that'll be, sir... you only have a reputation for being wise and well-spoken because what you say is so vanilla... UNLESS you are criticizing mean people. OH THOSE MEAN PEOPLE, they are so horrible. Great. Start crusading for something more meaningful to the site, and see how much headway you get.

The fact is that between the scads of ramys in the derby (the ones who put out mediocre work every week knowing people will eat it up... the ones who have perfected the victim card, as you've proven time and again to fall for... the ones who would leave woot in a second if they ever started printing on merit) and the livetrace kings in the dailies (who are defended as vanguards of art, despite using limited artistic elements, illegally obtained source material, and no sense of propriety to admit to it), there is very little you can say which would pass your own tact meter while also adequately explaining how wrong it is. And these are the people the masses defend? How do you explain why photo theft is wrong to someone who insists that it doesn't matter, they liked the shirt, so it should be in their hands? How do you explain why Ramy's bunnies have outlived their prime to the same sorts of people who buy fan-art based on characters they own entire books worth of legit art from? How can you help someone rationalize why a shirt is not still good even though it has been done 1000 times before? It doesn't work, and nothing is done by tiptoeing around it. What is done by insulting them? same amount of nothing, but people get to say "thank god SOMEONE said it. now I don't have to!" When you're spewing offensive ideas like popularity being superior to quality, or like theft of concept or literal source being appropriate solely because you like it, you deserve to be offended back. How can you be civil to people who don't use the greatest gift humans were given? And no, I don't mean the thumb.

I am not here to be loved. I have garnered the respect of many people without resorting to some idealistic, idiotic fantasy world where everyone gets along. Yknow why? Because in the real world, no one gets to tell their jerk of a boss "hey boss, you're a jerk. go to hell". But they all want to. Do not underestimate how many people appreciate the delivery as well as the message. And furthermore, do not underestimate the fact that just having anyone dare to stand up to the unfairness and ignorance of this site is, to most people educated enough to grasp the fact that there needs to be reform here, enough. People may not agree with my methods, but that doesn't prevent them from agreeing. Because the message speaks for itself.

If you really think it can be done some other way, do it. Stop being the naive peacemaker, and stop shielding work you don't respect simply because "Oh my god, you people are so mean". When you defend these people, you imply you respect them, and when you respect these people, you imply you agree with what they do. If you really care about woot changing, use that golden tongue of yours and prove me wrong about whether you can catch more flies with honey. But actually work to change things, not to make this Disney World. I'd love to see you succeed. But if you care, you sure do spend a lot of time defending the people who are destroying the site, and trying to discredit the people putting in the effort to do anything to fix things. It's really hard to see what you actually value when you spend four paragraphs stating why you feel an unimportant facet of an opinion is wrong and therefore unfair, and then only two sentences wrapping up that you don't actually care about the piece you defended. So either put in your own effort, or stop pretending it means anything to you. If you think the movement is noble but the mouthpiece is weak, prove that changing the dialog will change anything. Until then, I will call a spade a spade and be quite unconcerned if people can't handle it.

AdderXYU wrote:Then be the one. If you're so damned smart, be the one. See how fast people turn on you when you utter even the gentlest whisper of the idea that maybe, just maybe, woot is leaning too hard on the ignorant button and not hard enough on the creative one. What a crying shame that'll be, sir... you only have a reputation for being wise and well-spoken because what you say is so vanilla... UNLESS you are criticizing mean people. OH THOSE MEAN PEOPLE, they are so horrible. Great. Start crusading for something more meaningful to the site, and see how much headway you get.

The fact is that between the scads of ramys in the derby (the ones who put out mediocre work every week knowing people will eat it up... the ones who have perfected the victim card, as you've proven time and again to fall for... the ones who would leave woot in a second if they ever started printing on merit) and the livetrace kings in the dailies (who are defended as vanguards of art, despite using limited artistic elements, illegally obtained source material, and no sense of propriety to admit to it), there is very little you can say which would pass your own tact meter while also adequately explaining how wrong it is. And these are the people the masses defend? How do you explain why photo theft is wrong to someone who insists that it doesn't matter, they liked the shirt, so it should be in their hands? How do you explain why Ramy's bunnies have outlived their prime to the same sorts of people who buy fan-art based on characters they own entire books worth of legit art from? How can you help someone rationalize why a shirt is not still good even though it has been done 1000 times before? It doesn't work, and nothing is done by tiptoeing around it. What is done by insulting them? same amount of nothing, but people get to say "thank god SOMEONE said it. now I don't have to!" When you're spewing offensive ideas like popularity being superior to quality, or like theft of concept or literal source being appropriate solely because you like it, you deserve to be offended back. How can you be civil to people who don't use the greatest gift humans were given? And no, I don't mean the thumb.

I am not here to be loved. I have garnered the respect of many people without resorting to some idealistic, idiotic fantasy world where everyone gets along. Yknow why? Because in the real world, no one gets to tell their jerk of a boss "hey boss, you're a jerk. go to hell". But they all want to. Do not underestimate how many people appreciate the delivery as well as the message. And furthermore, do not underestimate the fact that just having anyone dare to stand up to the unfairness and ignorance of this site is, to most people educated enough to grasp the fact that there needs to be reform here, enough. People may not agree with my methods, but that doesn't prevent them from agreeing. Because the message speaks for itself.

If you really think it can be done some other way, do it. Stop being the naive peacemaker, and stop shielding work you don't respect simply because "Oh my god, you people are so mean". When you defend these people, you imply you respect them, and when you respect these people, you imply you agree with what they do. If you really care about woot changing, use that golden tongue of yours and prove me wrong about whether you can catch more flies with honey. But actually work to change things, not to make this Disney World. I'd love to see you succeed. But if you care, you sure do spend a lot of time defending the people who are destroying the site, and trying to discredit the people putting in the effort to do anything to fix things. It's really hard to see what you actually value when you spend four paragraphs stating why you feel an unimportant facet of an opinion is wrong and therefore unfair, and then only two sentences wrapping up that you don't actually care about the piece you defended. So either put in your own effort, or stop pretending it means anything to you. If you think the movement is noble but the mouthpiece is weak, prove that changing the dialog will change anything. Until then, I will call a spade a spade and be quite unconcerned if people can't handle it.

Really, Adder? I have criticized Woot for printing designs like this one. I've criticized Ramy for continuing to churn out cookie-cutter designs like this as well. Maybe you didn't notice it because my words weren't slanderous enough. Or maybe you were too busy yelling at your monitor.

As it is, even if I wanted to, I couldn't make any headway because the community is already so polarized. Frankly, I don't think I'd do a very good job of "crusading" anyway. I freely admit that you are far better at that than I could ever be. I only wish that you didn't have to insult everyone to do it.

All those questions you ask in your second paragraph aren't better addressed with venom. Those people who won't get it when you try to be civil won't get it no matter how loud you yell. So why yell at all? I'm worried about the fence-sitters who have the potential to see and be swayed. If all they see is hate, they'll be pushed away. They need the intelligent and eloquent reasoning that you can give and not the backhanded putdowns.

How can someone be civil to people who refuse to think or reason? Patience. Self-control. Human decency. You can get to "thank god SOMEONE said it" without insults. Look at what you've been writing here. For the most part, you've managed to be emphatic without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Sure, you get off a witty remark here and a snarky quip there, but you've been relatively civil with me. I know you're capable of explaining yourself without resorting to cheap shots. You could pass my "tact meter" with ease if you wanted to.

I'm not asking you to get along with everyone. I'm saying that it is possible to disagree with someone without having to go key their car. It's possible to let people know that all this dead wood could be a danger without burning everything to the ground. It's possible to express your dissatisfaction with a restaurant's food quality without spitting in the plates of all the other customers. I've stated time and time again that I agree with much of what you have to say. But I do indeed disagree with your methods, and I wonder how much more good you could do if you simply curbed the off-hand ignominy. As you said, the message speaks for itself. Why not let it stand on its own, free of all the insults?

I don't know if it can be done any other way. I simply believe that it can't be done this way. Invectives do nothing but hurt and divide when what we're looking for is healing and growth. I'm not defending "these people". I'm saying that you can do what you do without all the acrimony. I'll continue to comment against the designs like this that rise to the top, but I'll do it without foaming at the mouth because I value civil discourse and intelligent discussion. I can't change the dialogue on my own because it isn't just about what I say - it's about what you and everyone else says. It's about how we speak. By all means, call a spade a spade, but it would be nice if you could do it with a little common courtesy. Maybe that's too much to ask for in an online forum.

Maybe it's too optimistic and naive to hope that people can speak to each other with even a shred of decorum. But I prefer naivety to being so jaded that I continue to insult people even though it does "the same amount of nothing" as something more tactful.

As I said, you find a better way, and prove it can work. Because I'm pretty confident I have converted plenty of people, and I know I've been attacked for my views regardless of how they are stated.

The fact of the matter is you cannot change anything by making too many concessions. And that is why I don't think your way works, because you -do- make too many concessions. And there are times when it feels like people have found a criminal at a pie-eating contest, and you're shouting "guys, this guy may be a criminal, but he has not broken any rules to this contest, so let him eat his pie in peace!"

"But he stole old man Crenshaw's valuables, and shot his dog so no one would be alerted!"

"Yes, and that was wrong, but that doesn't mean you should say he is a bad person! Maybe he needed the money! And anyway, you're just attacking him needlessly. All he wants it to win a pie-eating competition!"

You might not read it this way, but it is how you sound to me, almost all the time. Your defense is always far more plentiful than your lack of approval.

People who are on the fence might tune me out, but you have surely seen plenty of comments the likes of "Adder, I used to think you were a total jerk, but now I see you're right". Because I am right. And the more people see the same argument, and the more nothing changes so the argument is still valid, the more they have to say, even grudgingly, "he is correct... this guy has no shame, or wooters have no taste". We've all seen it happen. Being reactionary makes the message noticeable. It may drive off people on the fence, at least at first, but being tepid about it doesn't hook those fence-sitters, because they simply ignore you. They might look at your comment, and agree internally, but it won't sway them. There's no passion.

If you're fighting a war, someone is going to get hurt. And I really think there is a war going on for woot's soul.

Obviously I feel differently, but if that's how you see me, I can't really argue against it. But I'd like to say it again - your responses here show just how well you can argue your points without making attacks personal. Even your little pie-eating story reads to me as light and jokey (and I certainly hope you didn't mean it to be scathing or inflammatory).

Of your posts, it's the ones like these that grab me the most. Your passion really comes through whereas the insults just make you look vindictive, spiteful and jealous. How many times have you been accused of being a troll?

And when people come back to you admitting that you're right, I'm sure many still think you're a jerk. Maybe they would have been more apt to listen to you earlier if you had been a bit more polite.

I don't know if you're really a jerk anyway. I've seen better sides of you both here in the forum and on your blog.

eHalcyon wrote:Obviously I feel differently, but if that's how you see me, I can't really argue against it. But I'd like to say it again - your responses here show just how well you can argue your points without making attacks personal. Even your little pie-eating story reads to me as light and jokey (and I certainly hope you didn't mean it to be scathing or inflammatory).

Of your posts, it's the ones like these that grab me the most. Your passion really comes through whereas the insults just make you look vindictive, spiteful and jealous. How many times have you been accused of being a troll?

And when people come back to you admitting that you're right, I'm sure many still think you're a jerk. Maybe they would have been more apt to listen to you earlier if you had been a bit more polite.

I don't know if you're really a jerk anyway. I've seen better sides of you both here in the forum and on your blog.

It's not my concern if people here like me. So long as they're listening. Regardless of what perceived harm my tone might cause, it cannot be half the harm of saying things in a way no one listens to.

And it's pretty unimportant to me how often I am called a troll. I will always be a troll to the sort of person who wants the status quo and is too ignorant or scared to change. They can call me whatever they want, but anyone intelligent enough to do their own reading would know that even at my most belligerent, I simply do not fit the definition.