Shirt.Woot

DianaSprinkle wrote:Well the first thing to do would be to NOT have an entire reckoning thread filled with people talking about the shirts you hope to get rid of...

Haha ... yeah, Nevermore is up to 14th place now, what with its DSR this week having increased by 3 since yesterday.

Shirts with good potential to escape the danger zone this week ...Cycle of Life and Delusions of Grandeur. Shirts that are bound to be reckoned ... there are five shirts right now that haven't been selling at even 10/day, three of which are currently above #20.

Somehow im kind of praying that Thesaurus jumps out of the reckoning and knocks out nevermore. How ironic would that be?

Liederkranz is getting -very- close to its first 10,000.

I'm pretty safe to say "first", aren't I? Mine arrived today, btw. Printed awesomely.

Arthurbrigade wrote:Somehow im kind of praying that Thesaurus jumps out of the reckoning and knocks out nevermore. How ironic would that be?

The odds of that happening is better than playing the lotto, but that's not saying much. ^_^

Spiritgreen wrote:Liederkranz is getting -very- close to its first 10,000.

I'm pretty safe to say "first", aren't I? Mine arrived today, btw. Printed awesomely.

I would say yes, even though the other Portal shirt sold less than this one has already in its 97 weeks on the charts. Woot wasn't as big back then.

As of this very minute, Cheese hit the 10k mark.

The Cheese is a Liederkranz
has hit 10,000 sales , & for Bass
$15,000 after 399 hours & 12 minutes.
Wooter jappledoe got # 10,000

Narfcake wrote:If you look deeper in, some of the defeating comments start on the day of the derby. Despite being popular enough to win the derby, there have been collaboration efforts that were met with disdain simply because of who the artist collaborated with. Then there are all accusations of "selling out" because a particular work created was "too pop culture".

The fact is, everyone has different tastes, and no one shirt will ever meet that. Some folks are more blunt with their words than others, but for the artists, to make it this far, they would've already learned to take the slack in stride.

It does seem to take thick skin to "play" around here. If a design has a major flaw in composition or basic glaring error that the artist themselves initially overlooked--then they should have it pointed out however, the "bluntness" can cross the line here at times.

Now, saying that you hope a particular shirt gets reckoned because it has been around for too long is annoying to me. However it does--for me at least--fall under the personal preference category and begrudging some one for liking something you hate, or treating them like garbage for liking something you don't is pretty low.

If people want to clear up some room in the reckoning, and they feel a shirt has had it's run or they just don't care for it, then that's their deal. Want to subtely (or bluntly) organize a way to get something reckoned? Go for it, just don't treat other people like scum along the way if the shirt you dislike happens to stick around for another week.

Bottom line point I'm trying to make is this: It crosses the line, at least for me personally, when posts crop up that basically denigrate other people for their tastes.

This would be your general, "You are an i.diot if you like anything to do with pop culture or this shirt" comments, to the more long winded rants. The ones that go something like, "This shirt is horrible, everyone in the world (except for me) is contemptable pond scum whether or not they like the shirt, and this all connects to the Lincoln Douglas debates, 19th century cultural beliefs, and FDR's New Deal and...*sigh* why do I bother even talking to you plebians? Maybe one day you'll be as enlightened as me."

Both of these type of posts aren't really comments on the design style, the reckoning, the derbies, or what have you. If some one says, "I don't like the "Nevermore" shirt because it's an abridged version of the poem and the black letters against the gray shirt really don't work that well. It was a nice concept, but the execution wasn't all the way there," shouldn't that be considered a more worthwhile, and insighful, way of commenting on the shirt?

Sorry if this sounds a little long winded, it's just fustrating to see some people day after day come to this site and not state their views on a design in a concise, kindly manner.

Bluntness should never be an excuse for rudeness.

bluejester wrote:Stuff that bluejester said

By my calculations, after I decided to adder all up, I tend to agree with your statement. I hope there isn't any behind the scene manipulation of the reckoning & I don't think there is, at least in the top 15, due to the number of purchases it would require. Some people like certain styles better than others & that's what should determine what stays. I bought #26 this week & I personally like it better than anything in the top 5. If it gets reckoned away at least I've got mine.

If you want to see Kraken, I put it up in show us your shirts and on its own thread. Lovely.

I love how nicely critiqued this thread is and how everything is neatly rationalized. I was wondering if there are weeks when all 7 noobs survive or are close to just because they look so awesome. And if there are cases where that has happened, did they make major upsets in the reckoning?

bluejester wrote:
Both of these type of posts aren't really comments on the design style, the reckoning, the derbies, or what have you. If some one says, "I don't like the "Nevermore" shirt because it's an abridged version of the poem and the black letters against the gray shirt really don't work that well. It was a nice concept, but the execution wasn't all the way there," shouldn't that be considered a more worthwhile, and insighful, way of commenting on the shirt?

Nope. Because it's not true that things must have a respectful tone implying that believing the opposite is OK. If you go to make a sandwich, and the bread is moldy, and you make the sandwich anyway on green bread, expecting people to accept this as a matter of taste is naive.

Given the comments you have made on Nevermore in this example, give a logical argument why someone would still like it: They're a huge fan of poorly abridged poetry? They're a Poe fan who actually doesn't care about the content of his work and wants to show the world how little they care? They wanted an asphalt shirt, but couldn't justify buying a blank tee, and Nevermore's impossibility to see after a wash or two fit the bill for them?

If you cannot make a strong argument for your opinions, you have no right to expect respect for them. The Apple Jacks defense of "I just like it" is not a strong argument. Unless one is willing to have zero identity, they need to know why they like the things they like, and they need to accept that sometimes their reasons will be Sirius GPP, and grow thick enough skin to handle it.

You want rudeness eliminated so badly? No one is truly rude when they respect someone. Most of the people I am most interested in discussing things with are those who I don't fully agree with, but who have earned my respect by making intelligent arguments for their side of things. That makes conversation interesting and stimulating. You say "well, maybe someone wants Nevermore because they love the Raven". I say "why would anyone who loved the poem want a keepsake which so thoroughly adulterates it? It would make the wearer seem ignorant of the topic they love so much." You say "well, maybe they just like birds." I say "the number of people who like birds enough to have one made out of words which are truly meaningless to them slapped on their shirt, while possibly extant, is not enough to perpetuate the tee for over two years." And so on and so on. You have three choices: the first is to continue until you make a point strong enough for me to accept your rationalization, regardless of my agreement. The second is to continue until you realize that I can counter any point you make with a better one, and you accept that my reasoning is sound enough for respect. And the third is to whine about how I'm mean and can't I just let people like what they want? Most people choose the third, and the respect they get is paid in kind.

Why does it matter to me why someone likes something? Because it should matter to them why they like something. If it doesn't matter, why bother having the opinion at all? If it does matter, shouldn't it matter enough to know why it does? The "play nice" mentality stems from the insecurity inherent in being questioned. If you have no satisfactory reason to like Nevermore (and such a reason needs to include similar reasons as to why its undeniable shortcomings don't matter... it's not opinion that it fades super quick or that it's sloppily abridged), why should anyone accept your view as valid?

I believe there are magical tiger-elves, as yet unseen by man, which lay invisible eggs in meadows. When you step on an egg, you have good luck. Why do I believe this? I just do. Your basic ideology states that I have a right not only to believe this, but to not have the belief called into question as flat out wrong and ignorant against the facts (which I also refuse to address in relation to the belief). Sound extreme? The facts weigh heavily against Nevermore being a worthwhile tee (and certainly numerous tees could be in its place), and the opinions against it are all evidence and observation based. Just like a tiger-elf, there needs to be incredibly compelling reasoning on the other side before anyone of note is really going to believe it. If there isn't, you bring the mockery and insult upon yourself.

AdderXYU wrote:la la la la I eat applejacks & see tigerelves

Tigerelves are cool. So are Lion fairies. They don't step on eggs though since they are fairies. I haven't seen either since the doctors changed my prescription. Dang lithium. I'd stop taking it but then I'd go into meaningless rants against people I don't even know. Whew, what was that? I think I just saw one out of the corner of my eye. What's that? The voices in my head say it's time for another pill.

bluejester wrote:...
Bluntness should never be an excuse for rudeness.

True to everything you said. I know I usually word things less offensively myself, though I'll be just as ready to admit that there have been, and will be, times in which I'll be just as blunt and insulting because it's something that had to be said.

I think a huge aspect that folks forget is that unlike shirts you buy at other places, the designers here are usually active participants. Generally speaking, you don't bad mouth your colleagues when they're around ... so why do it here?

sirtimbob wrote:I love how nicely critiqued this thread is and how everything is neatly rationalized. I was wondering if there are weeks when all 7 noobs survive or are close to just because they look so awesome. And if there are cases where that has happened, did they make major upsets in the reckoning?

I don't recall seeing any week in which all of them survived. Upsets ... see any week in which a shirt that should've been reckoned wasn't because of "funny business".

AdderXYU wrote:Nope. Because it's not true that things must have a respectful tone implying that believing the opposite is OK.

So I think you're saying that there are times when it's actually ok to be rude. I can't think of any situations right now where that's true, but I'm not going to argue with that statement in general. But the fact is, this is a shirt site. People are stating their opinions on the ART on a shirt. Art is subjective. There is no reason to be venomously rude and scathing when discussing something so objectively subjective as art.

AdderXYU wrote:Nope. Because it's not true that things must have a respectful tone implying that believing the opposite is OK. If you go to make a sandwich, and the bread is moldy, and you make the sandwich anyway on green bread, expecting people to accept this as a matter of taste is naive.

Given the comments you have made on Nevermore in this example, give a logical argument why someone would still like it: They're a huge fan of poorly abridged poetry? They're a Poe fan who actually doesn't care about the content of his work and wants to show the world how little they care? They wanted an asphalt shirt, but couldn't justify buying a blank tee, and Nevermore's impossibility to see after a wash or two fit the bill for them?

Since you've appointed yourself the authority on the definition of proper arguments, please allow me to point out some of the fallacies of yours.

Your comparison of the persistence of "Nevermore" to people eating moldy sandwiches, is patently absurd--and if you don't see this then please just stop pretending that you are practicing logic. This is called a straw-man argument: whereby you wrongly state someone else's argument and then mock it. First, it WOULD be a matter of taste if some people said they preferred the TASTE of moldy sandwiches--however, because it's really a matter of safety, that overrides the taste issue. Look at the junk that's for sale all over the free world--if moldy sandwiches weren't dangerous they would be for sale.

Furthermore, you (and many others on this board) are convinced that your own artistic opinion is fact--either because you know something about art or because you think you do--neither of which have any bearing on matters of opinion.

You want people to provide you reasons why "Nevermore" has survived for so long. Why? Why does anyone need to justify why they buy a shirt to an elitist who will simply mock them for it?

To date 36,944 people have bought "Nevermore." That's proof enough that an awful lot of people don't share your view. And I reject the notion that simply because I don't know why it's so popular, is a valid reason to assume that it shouldn't be popular.

But if you want a specific answer:

AdderXYU wrote:why someone would still like it: They're a huge fan of poorly abridged poetry? They're a Poe fan who actually doesn't care about the content of his work and wants to show the world how little they care?

Seriously? Do you think a single one of the nearly 37000 purchasers are using this t-shirt as a literary reference? Do you think anyone cares a lick if it's poorly abridged? It's a T-SHIRT. I'm not wearing "Starry Night" on my chest...I'm wearing a one-liner about Monty Python. I figure if I'm wearing a good t-shirt someone will look at it for 1-2 seconds, and in that 2 seconds they will decide if they like it. If someone is a fan of Poe (which I am) and they stop me to actually READ more than the first couple of lines, I'd probably think they were of less than average intelligence.

People buy pop-culture and shallow T-Shirts because that's what t-shirts are. Even if you take a great work of art and put it on a t-shirt, the t-shirt isn't art. And frankly, one of the ugliest things about this site are the elitists who talk down to people because you don't like the shirts they like or buy.

Your opinion on the merits of a shirt is "A"...mine is "B"....if you really think that makes you better than me, that's kind of pathetic.

dcroe05 wrote:dcroe05's well mannered reply

Exactly! If you like it or if you don't, vote with your wallet. I like some of the less popular designs & I buy them for me & maybe the laugh they will get from my friends. I'm not expecting a Van Gogh for 10 bucks & anyone that would think a shirt was that kind of art may need some professional help.

AdderXYU wrote:
Given the comments you have made on Nevermore in this example, give a logical argument why someone would still like it: They're a huge fan of poorly abridged poetry? They're a Poe fan who actually doesn't care about the content of his work and wants to show the world how little they care? They wanted an asphalt shirt, but couldn't justify buying a blank tee, and Nevermore's impossibility to see after a wash or two fit the bill for them?

I got Nevermore knowing full well it was a poorly abridged, highly overrated Poe poem (It's got a bird on it though, that auomatically makes it better. Ah, Portlandia.). I also bought it knowing full well that it would probably be poorly printed, as that has so helpfully been pointed out in numerous posts.

You are right; I didn't care.

I only have to look at the image to hear the words in my head. I hear myself as a word entranced child sitting in the library all summer. I hear socially awkward teen campers trying to scare each other at a campfire. I hear college roommates trying to impress their Lit major girlfriends with overly dramatic readings. I hear my nephew laughing at the Simpsons on Halloween. It's like singing along with an old song on the radio...the words may not quite be right, but the joy of the moment is still there. That transandental moment is currently stitched to a canvas and hanging on my wall for me to re-visit every day. It may be just an ugly $15 t-shirt to some, but to me it is a bit of artistically executed monochromatic joy.

There is little joy in demanding black and white logic and perfection. There is a lot of joy in sharing a love of literature, no matter how trite, and even if it is on ironic Asphalt. 161 weeks, and that argument is still strong.
Feel free to dispute that in 250 words or less.

gwendyw wrote:Feel free to dispute that in 250 words or less.

You know that's almost like an impossible feat, right? ^_^

dcroe05 wrote:Your comparison of the persistence of "Nevermore" to people eating moldy sandwiches, is patently absurd--and if you don't see this then please just stop pretending that you are practicing logic.

His comparison of designs he doesn't like to moldy bread and designers he doesn't like to crack-head-child-molesters leads me to discount everything else he says as the rantings of a crazy, bitter man (cue cliche of a fist shaking at the sky) .

We seem to have shifted from one end of the spectrum, having 5 noobs in the Top 20, to the other, having absolutely 0 shirts in the Top 20

gwendyw wrote:I got Nevermore knowing full well it was a poorly abridged, highly overrated Poe poem (It's got a bird on it though, that auomatically makes it better. Ah, Portlandia.). I also bought it knowing full well that it would probably be poorly printed, as that has so helpfully been pointed out in numerous posts.

You are right; I didn't care.

I only have to look at the image to hear the words in my head. I hear myself as a word entranced child sitting in the library all summer. I hear socially awkward teen campers trying to scare each other at a campfire. I hear college roommates trying to impress their Lit major girlfriends with overly dramatic readings. I hear my nephew laughing at the Simpsons on Halloween. It's like singing along with an old song on the radio...the words may not quite be right, but the joy of the moment is still there. That transandental moment is currently stitched to a canvas and hanging on my wall for me to re-visit every day. It may be just an ugly $15 t-shirt to some, but to me it is a bit of artistically executed monochromatic joy.

There is little joy in demanding black and white logic and perfection. There is a lot of joy in sharing a love of literature, no matter how trite, and even if it is on ironic Asphalt. 161 weeks, and that argument is still strong.
Feel free to dispute that in 250 words or less.

No lover of literature would demand anything in 250 words or less.

I can say "I see this and that" in any shirt, but if I cannot explain WHY, it is worthless critique. So you see a montage of the tritest geek-film cliches in this tee (and I would agree that only a geek film cliche would be appropriate to stick it on). It completely matters if the song has the right words. You don't love every cover of every song you've ever liked, right? How it is presented is always important.

It is noble to take the "I care about literature" tack, but literature, as an art, should be preserved in the artful. It should be about the personal, because that is what literature touches on. There is no personal touch in here unless you force it. The text is copied and font-based, the silhouette is clip-art chic. For $15, frame your favorite book and buy a new copy. That will capture all the same things in an honest manner. Otherwise, if the sum total of what Nevermore is still makes it meaningful for just touching on literature, then Snooki's book is too, because it has words in it. Defending the greed that led to a sloppy, impersonal tee design is defending the Stephanie Meyers and Danielle Steeles of the world with the same literary respect. And if the 161 weeks is truly important, I hope your favorite book was the Da Vinci Code, because it's the only text I can think of where its success can be directly measured to time-spent-on-bestseller-lists. Though I hope it's not actually, because with the ideals you ascribe to Nevermore, it'd be a shame to cite Dan Brown as an author, let alone a good one.

I hope that wasn't too verbose for a literature lover like yourself to plod through.

Assassin15 wrote:So I think you're saying that there are times when it's actually ok to be rude. I can't think of any situations right now where that's true, but I'm not going to argue with that statement in general. But the fact is, this is a shirt site. People are stating their opinions on the ART on a shirt. Art is subjective. There is no reason to be venomously rude and scathing when discussing something so objectively subjective as art.

Art cannot be totally subjective, though. Nothing can be. There are facts around, and if the opinion flies in the face of fact (like when people say "this would look better if it was on any color but black," despite the shirt being on navy), the opinion is worthless. And when worthless opinion is used as though it has merit to equal opinion which jives better with fact and has a viable basis for its creation, then there is complete reason to be venomously rude and scathing. No matter what topic is in play.

Not to mention that art is not the insignificant thing that the New Consumerist Army of Woot thinks it is. Arts of all sort are the vehicles of ideas and expressions, and there is no more important aspect of what makes us human than our ability to have ideas and express them. To assign such menial importance to them, as this site seems to love to do, assigns menial importance to the essence of being human. And that leads to a shirt like Meh selling better than Fresh Ideas.

Thinking is so important. That there is ANYONE not outraged to the point of venom that people don't seem to find it vital to think through their opinions should only make the rest of us all the more angry.

ThunderThighs wrote:Damn, 308. With a little editing, I think you could have done it.

That's the funniest thing I've read all day. Give yourself a Q.u.a.l.i.t.y. - p.o.s.t. from all of us to you.

It seems strange that while all of this weeks' shirts are incredibly disappointing, it's all of last weeks' shirts that are in the danger zone.

Delusions of Grandeur, Cycle of Life, License and Registration, and Let's Get Kraken are all much better t-shirts than all the t-shirts printed this week.

So far for this week's DSR numbers, based on 4 days of data from Monday night to Friday night ...

- Four shirts have been selling below an average of 10/day; two are deep in the danger zone, two are not but certainly can be if their sales don't improve over the weekend.
- Six of the top eight are selling above 20/day.
- First place is selling above a 3:1 ratio versus second place. The #1 spot is pretty much guaranteed for its 5th week in the reckoning.
- For tonight's newest entry into the bystanders list, 38.12% of the sales were still mens shirts, so phhhhhhbt! to all you naysayers.

Is the danger zone broken?? I don't think I've seen anything move all week!

lily1029 wrote:Is the danger zone broken?? I don't think I've seen anything move all week!

There has been some movement, but I'm surprised the two I called out earlier hasn't broken out of the danger zone yet. They have been selling at a higher rate than several others.

...aaaaaaand Thesaurus finally breaks through the seemingly insurmountable barricade of sales! Looks like he'll be the only n**b in the top 20.

Finally we get the new shirt break in. We will see if Metrognome has a response, it looked pretty dead for most of last week but got surprising late sales to stick around.

gricomet wrote:Finally we get the new shirt break in. We will see if Metrognome has a response, it looked pretty dead for most of last week but got surprising late sales to stick around.

43 sales in the past 5-1/2 days; daily, its sales rate this week has been hovering between 7-8 per day. I don't see it recovering - it's not just one day to low sales make up, but an entire week's worth.

Should the artist pull off a "buy-it-yourself-for-a-bump" move, it won't pay off at all because the additional sales expected won't make up for the one's you had to buy yourself. Even artists famous for doing this knows there are times in which it's just not worth doing.

There's a time for every shirt to be reckoned. This may be its week.

Narfcake wrote:43 sales in the past 5-1/2 days; daily, its sales rate this week has been hovering between 7-8 per day. I don't see it recovering - it's not just one day to low sales make up, but an entire week's worth.

Should the artist pull off a "buy-it-yourself-for-a-bump" move, it won't pay off at all because the additional sales expected won't make up for the one's you had to buy yourself. Even artists famous for doing this knows there are times in which it's just not worth doing.

There's a time for every shirt to be reckoned. This may be its week.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting any artist shenanigans. As I remember the rate just looked really low during last week but the last couple of days seemed to be higher and made it up. As you say, a late surge might not even be enough with the bad sales this week.

gricomet wrote:Yeah, I'm not suggesting any artist shenanigans.

Well, I did say this last week, though I think they're all clean. Even though such a move is legal, there's something stronger to be said about the artist's own integrity over trying to gain a few more bucks.

As you say, a late surge might not even be enough with the bad sales this week.

This week ... it'd have to be a sizable surge. Still, bigger surprises have happened here before, so.

Arthurbrigade wrote:Dont worry, it comes with woot changing derogitory terms. I mean look at my name, woot changes Arthurbrigade to Aurthur when you quote me or when I get a quality post. Damn the censors!

All of the changes seem to be relevant though. So my question is which Arthur does the PTB think is a Arthur?

I don't hit the forums much, but from some of the comments I assume that a sizable number of people don't like shirts being in the Reckoning for long periods of time. I assume that's because it keeps newer shirts off. Which brings to mind a thought I've had several times - woot should have some sort of permanent place for shirts that last a year or more. Obviously more people keep buying them, so why not? And it would free up that space for other shirts in the Reckoning.

(Sorry if this is rehashing old stuff; as I said, I don't hit the forums much.)

blanked wrote:All of the changes seem to be relevant though. So my question is which Arthur does the PTB think is a Arthur?

Dudley Moore's version?

lily1029 wrote:Is the danger zone broken?? I don't think I've seen anything move all week!

I think the tubes are clogged with cheese.

Those little water drops on "Cycle of Life" represent my tears that it hasn't moved up and out of the Reckoning.

Also sorry to see License and Registration get the boot so quickly.

Both of those were solid, and awesome designs.