aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712

I understand that the folks at woot should have the ability to edit a thread when absolutely necessary, but what has been happening lately is appalling.

After what was presumably a callous remark (many of us don't know what was there due to censorship), a wooter rightly expressed that they were upset by the remark and the response to it. What happens? The post and all made it support of the upset wooter are deleted. Woot, you preach the value of community, but then this happens. I'm sure this will be deleted quickly, but those at Woot need to know that they can't just delete or alter posts and act like they were never there.

You've screwed up big time with this and are just making things worse.

Oh, and the selective censorship, only intervening when woot looks bad, very classy.

bounty42


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bounty42

Seconded.

There are reports of any anti-Anvil post not in the designated thread being removed.

I've noticed posts stating which Blank a Shirt was printed on have been pulled from a lot of pages too.



Numquam minoris aestimo potentia stultis, maxime in magna coetus
------------------------------------
■(1:40 PM, 7/27/2012) bounty42 quips, "Forget Guest Editor, what we need is a Guest Rejectionator."
■(10:40 AM, 6/21/2012 ) bounty42 inquires, "Is it just me, or do we not typically get this many Editors Choice shirts?"
■(2:02 PM, 6/15/2012) bounty42 runs numbers.
■(10:40 AM, 6/7/2012) bounty42 dispenses wisdom for all those 'too late' naysayers, "A woot shirt is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
■(3:20 PM, 5/18/2012) bounty42 states, "The turtle is very cute, and I love the smug look he's got."

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712

Apparently, writing a comment in support of an upset wooter is a terrible thing to do. How else can the deleted posts be justified?

Edit - Nice job adding the content description to your sig line.

Edit 2 - Just want to make clear that the "terrible thing" remark is meant to be laced with disdain for woot's terrible decisions.

loridi


quality posts: 5 Private Messages loridi

Oddly enough, my little comment to neuro remains, so they aren't being consistent about it either. Or at least it was still there before this was posted. Afterwards, who knows.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
aerc712 wrote:Apparently, writing a comment in support of an upset wooter is a terrible thing to do. How else can the deleted posts be justified?

Whoah!
Wow!
Welcome to the happy garden.

move along

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712
j5 wrote:Whoah!
Wow!
Welcome to the happy garden.



Quite a few of the now deleted posts had positive messages for neuro. However, since supporting neuro also meant calling out woot on handling things terribly, pretty much everything was censored and deleted.

blanked


quality posts: 10 Private Messages blanked

I think the reason for the deletion ( if I am guessing right to what is gone) was due to too much personal info. And the one not deleted is because you didn't have that info in your post. It is pointless to delete the original but leave the quotes.

Of course whether it was TMI is up for opinions. I would guess it got tattled on but who knows.


Edit- part of why I am thinking opposite of many is because I have seen people criticize filters before and be acknowledged and not deleted. Of course different moderator and you get a different style of handling things they see as inflammatory.

bounty42


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bounty42
blanked wrote:I think the reason for the deletion ( if I am guessing right to what is gone) was due to too much personal info. And the one not deleted is because you didn't have that info in your post. It is pointless to delete the original but leave the quotes.

Of course whether it was TMI is up for opinions. I would guess it got tattled on but who knows.


Edit- part of why I am thinking opposite of many is because I have seen people criticize filters before and be acknowledged and not deleted. Of course different moderator and you get a different style of handling things they see as inflammatory.



My big concern is that a) They can obviously edit posts, because the edited but left a reply.
b) that post said that she wasn't going to be around, but would be working on trades.

While I understand the need to clear flamable materials, removing those last 2 fact CREATES flamable materials.

EDIT: forgot my own point: They could have just editied out the part they didn't like, and left that she'll not be around, and that she will be completing trades.



Numquam minoris aestimo potentia stultis, maxime in magna coetus
------------------------------------
■(1:40 PM, 7/27/2012) bounty42 quips, "Forget Guest Editor, what we need is a Guest Rejectionator."
■(10:40 AM, 6/21/2012 ) bounty42 inquires, "Is it just me, or do we not typically get this many Editors Choice shirts?"
■(2:02 PM, 6/15/2012) bounty42 runs numbers.
■(10:40 AM, 6/7/2012) bounty42 dispenses wisdom for all those 'too late' naysayers, "A woot shirt is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
■(3:20 PM, 5/18/2012) bounty42 states, "The turtle is very cute, and I love the smug look he's got."

blanked


quality posts: 10 Private Messages blanked

Bounty

From talking to mods on other sites; how much work is involved varies. The site I am referring to has an unfriendly set up for mods. If they want to delete a single post it is more work than deleting it and all its replys. I have no idea how woot's forums are set up, but they may have just taken the quickest and most thurough way rather than accidentally leave bits.
People do get bent out of shape when they get edited, but I have had post go away because it added nothing to the conversation. (ohh, nice shirt posts). When there is more than 10 of those in a row they seem to thin the herd of them.
Why don't we first see how Neuro feels before getting out the pitchforks?

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712

To reiterate a point I made in a now deleted post -
Behind each screen name here is a person with unique experiences and emotions. When that person is upset by the words and actions of others, they should be able to state that and not risk being judged. My understanding is that neuro unfortunately endured a violent encounter and quite understandably has trouble with violent material, like Game of Thrones. There was one thoughtful response that I saw, but then one that was callous and reprehensible. That remark should have been deleted in its entirety. However, it wasn't. Snippets were left behind and they were not good. Neuro was upset by them and wrote, for the circumstances, a very composed and thoughtful response to the matter and ultimately said that because of how things played out would be leaving woot. Many left comments in support of neuro, one admitted fault, one ignored it, and almost everything that spoke to how woot mismanaged this situation was deleted.

Parts should have been deleted, I will agree to that. But the editing and censoring was carried out in a terrible manner and hurt a member of the woot community. But since a lot of what was said made woot look bad many posts in the recent discussions were deleted. Woot has attempted to act like none of this is going on which is abhorrent.

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712
blanked wrote:Bounty
Why don't we first see how Neuro feels before getting out the pitchforks?



We were able to, but then Neuro's post explaining the situation was deleted.

newnie


quality posts: 2 Private Messages newnie

I thought something funky was going on there, I saw nueros post then got distracted by the cute baby piggies. When I came back later to respond I couldn't find it anymore.

P.S. I've had several of my comments deleted when talking about AA/Anvil!

bluchez


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bluchez

I think the posts in question in the reckoning thread were most likely deleted because they had nothing to do with the reckoning. Deleting off topic posts is and always has been the official stance.

I do not believe that woot was trying to hide anything or prevent people from supporting a poster.

Narfcake


quality posts: 287 Private Messages Narfcake
bluchez wrote:I think the posts in question in the reckoning thread were most likely deleted because they had nothing to do with the reckoning. Deleting off topic posts is and always has been the official stance.

I do not believe that woot was trying to hide anything or prevent people from supporting a poster.


Perhaps so, but then why was the offending comment allowed to linger in the original shirt discussion thread in the first place? The staff moderators should have redacted it in the first place instead of a volmod going in afterwards to do the real cleanup.

FWIW, I do have a copy of Neuro's post from last night, but I don't have the copy of the original offending post.

loridi


quality posts: 5 Private Messages loridi
bluchez wrote:I think the posts in question in the reckoning thread were most likely deleted because they had nothing to do with the reckoning. Deleting off topic posts is and always has been the official stance.

I do not believe that woot was trying to hide anything or prevent people from supporting a poster.



I thought that too, but they did leave my response there. It no longer quotes neuro, but it is still there. THey could have missd it I guess, thought it got caught during the inital sweep when they were remvoving the quotes of neuro's entry.

Gatzby


quality posts: 43 Private Messages Gatzby

As ever, we love and encourage your feedback, but we want to make sure it gets read, ergo, we ask you to keep it in the appropriate places, like here.

Dig: Someone's looking for posts about the reckoning? Seems likely they're going to visit the reckoning thread. Someone wants to have a discussion about shirt sizes, manufacturers, or colors? It's silly to discuss that in a thread about one specific shirt.

Some of it is our anal retentive need to organize and sort, but even more of it is we want to be able to find, hear, and use your feedback. Having it scattered makes that tough and it gets lost in the "noise." Even more importantly, having a dedicated discussion thread means other people can find it and add their two bits.

If you're ever upset by a post, report it! Then we know there's an issue. Replying to it just makes it a bigger issue and requires more effort to clean things up. We are human, we make mistakes, so sometimes things slip by, or get nuked in favor of making sure the majority have the best possible experience.

Edit: Content that does not meet our guidelines should be treated equally, regardless of the tone of the post. Criticism is awesome, just make sure it's constructive.

Did you know shirt.woot ships internationally? Get you some!
Why do my posts always get deleted? -- Noise Reduction -- Try it in podcast format.
No, you can't have our iPod, keys, or Lego. Sorry.

blanked


quality posts: 10 Private Messages blanked

Yes, behind the screen is a real person, same with those doing the moderating. If you make allowance one way you need to make them the other too. And direct your anger at the troll who, for sh*** and giggles, flamed someone who was a victim of domestic abuse. They have forfeited their allowances.

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial

I initially heard that woot had deleted my post and several messages of support via an email from a friend I initially met in the Reckoning thread. I was, to say the least, utterly flabbergasted by the way that woot has handled this situation (including some private communication to me from woot staff). I had no idea how to respond. And then I remembered that I am a numbers-watcher. I turn woot into quantitative information.

Gatzby wrote:As ever, we love and encourage your feedback, but we want to make sure it gets read, ergo, we ask you to keep it in the appropriate places, like here.

Dig: Someone's looking for posts about the reckoning? Seems likely they're going to visit the reckoning thread.

The thread for Reckoning 251 was created at 12:01AM on 05/29/2012. I posted at approximately 11:30PM on 05/30/2012. Between those two timestamps, 47.5 hours (2849 minutes) elapsed. There were 79 posts to the Reckoning 251 thread, inclusive of wootbot's post opening the thread but exclusive of my now-deleted post. According to the logic expressed above by woot staff, we would expect 100% of those posts to be on-topic for the Reckoning, yes?

Content Analysis of Reckoning 251 thread (05/29/2012 12:01AM - 05/30/2012 11:30PM), allotting fractional content (e.g., a post mentioning both shirt sizes and the lack of sales stats post-redesign would be given 1/2 point for each topic); 17 total topics of discussion:
1) posts containing solely non-Reckoning-related jokes or otherwise not related to woot in any way: 13 1/3
2) posts related to sales figures of a single shirt made by artists confused by the sales tracker available only to a shirt's artist: 12
3) posts noting that woot removed the sales numbers for all shirts during the redesign: 10 1/2
4) posts related to Reckoning standings or the chances that Nevermore will ever be Reckoned: 8 1/3
5) posts related to Anvil shirts being sent for shirts sold as AA or related to shirts labelled with the wrong size: 7 1/12 (over 8 posts)
6T) posts related to problems with the artists' coupon charging for shipping: 3
6T) posts related solely to the Derby: 3
6T) posts related solely to methods of shirt storage or shirt buying "habits": 3
9T) AA updates: 2
9T) site redesign, not related to sales numbers: 2
11T) posts related solely to the side sales: 1 1/2
11T) jokes related to the "Don't Mention Nevermore" meme: 1 1/2
13T) topics with only one post
- a comment that several shirts in the Reckoning were listed as "sold out"
- a thank-you for a referral to non-woot sites selling shirts on AA
- woot trivia
- wootbot opening the thread
- a thank-you

Three of the 87 posts are by woot staff: wootbot opening the thread; a post about artist coupons and free shipping; and a post noting that a non-Reckoning-related-post was funny.

Of the 87 posts made in the first 47 1/2 hours of the Reckoning 251 thread, less than 10% were related to the Reckoning. I assume that the 78 posts that do not mention the Reckoning will be deleted now that woot staff has been made aware of the off-topic nature of those posts.

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial
Gatzby wrote:Someone wants to have a discussion about shirt sizes, manufacturers, or colors? It's silly to discuss that in a thread about one specific shirt.

Of the 34 posts made between 12:01AM and 5:07PM in the thread for today's Daily, 18 regard today's shirt (with a generous definition of "regard"); 5 are about music; 4 are about the site redesign; 2 are about the price increase that took place in January; 2 are about political correctness (vaguely shirt-related); 1 criticizes the choice of shirts printed by woot over "the past few months;" 1 is the artist offering thanks; 1 is solely "go artist" on his first print. The only post by woot staff in the thread is about music. That's 47% of posts not related to today's shirt.

(FWIW, of the 96 posts remaining in the thread for yesterday's Daily, 31 do not mention, reference, or regard the shirt by any stretch of the imagination: that's 32%).

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

bounty42


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bounty42
neuropsychosocial wrote:Of the 34 posts made between 12:01AM and 5:07PM in the thread for today's Daily, 18 regard today's shirt (with a generous definition of "regard"); 5 are about music; 4 are about the site redesign; 2 are about the price increase that took place in January; 2 are about political correctness (vaguely shirt-related); 1 criticizes the choice of shirts printed by woot over "the past few months;" 1 is the artist offering thanks; 1 is solely "go artist" on his first print. The only post by woot staff in the thread is about music. That's 47% of posts not related to today's shirt.

(FWIW, of the 96 posts remaining in the thread for yesterday's Daily, 31 do not mention, reference, or regard the shirt by any stretch of the imagination: that's 32%).



a) Zinged by the numbers team.
b) Glad to see you're at least marginally with us. Though I think you, Narf, and I may not see July 1st at the current rate.



Numquam minoris aestimo potentia stultis, maxime in magna coetus
------------------------------------
■(1:40 PM, 7/27/2012) bounty42 quips, "Forget Guest Editor, what we need is a Guest Rejectionator."
■(10:40 AM, 6/21/2012 ) bounty42 inquires, "Is it just me, or do we not typically get this many Editors Choice shirts?"
■(2:02 PM, 6/15/2012) bounty42 runs numbers.
■(10:40 AM, 6/7/2012) bounty42 dispenses wisdom for all those 'too late' naysayers, "A woot shirt is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
■(3:20 PM, 5/18/2012) bounty42 states, "The turtle is very cute, and I love the smug look he's got."

no1


quality posts: 7 Private Messages no1
neuropsychosocial wrote:I initially heard that woot had deleted my post and several messages of support via an email from a friend I initially met in the Reckoning thread. I was, to say the least, utterly flabbergasted by the way that woot has handled this situation (including some private communication to me from woot staff). I had no idea how to respond. And then I remembered that I am a numbers-watcher. I turn woot into quantitative information.
The thread for Reckoning 251 was created at 12:01AM on 05/29/2012. I posted at approximately 11:30PM on 05/30/2012. Between those two timestamps, 47.5 hours (2849 minutes) elapsed. There were 79 posts to the Reckoning 251 thread, inclusive of wootbot's post opening the thread but exclusive of my now-deleted post. According to the logic expressed above by woot staff, we would expect 100% of those posts to be on-topic for the Reckoning, yes?



not at all. with only one or two notable exceptions, woot in the past has rarely exhibited a zero-tolerance policy on off-topicness. more often than not, they seem to be more interested in heading off heated discussions that lead to several hundred off-topic posts. the off-topic comments that don't spark long strings of angry posts usually seem to fly under the radar. a few dozen is relatively easy to wade through; a thousand, less so.

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial
Gatzby wrote:Some of it is our anal retentive need to organize and sort, but even more of it is we want to be able to find, hear, and use your feedback. Having it scattered makes that tough and it gets lost in the "noise."

I see. But that does not explains why several people tattled on chrysknife's post early in the day and woot staff chose not to redact any portion of his post until late in the day. If I am interpreting gatby's post and inkycatz' post correctly via the logical axiom advanced by gatby - and I assume that woot's logic is consistent, sound, and valid - I posit that woot staff is claiming that a comment saying no one cares if I were murdered and that woot will be sure to pass along chrysknife's sentiment to me is, in fact, considered on-topic for a thread discussing a shirt riffing on Game of Thorns.

I confess that I can't see the connection. Would woot staff be willing to clarify for their customer base whether posts about murdering their customers are generally considering on-topic in individual shirt threads?

Gatzby wrote:Even more importantly, having a dedicated discussion thread means other people can find it and add their two bits.

Thanks for letting us know! I assume this means that woot will support me in starting a new thread to discuss yesterday's incident: fantastic! Narfcake, would you send me my now-deleted post made to the Reckoning thread last night? I'm accepting suggestions for a thread title. I'm thinking of: "Woot staff promises to tell customer that another customer does not care if victims of domestic violence are murdered." Although that actually sounds more like the title of a typical post by The Consumerist.

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial
Gatzby wrote:If you're ever upset by a post, report it! Then we know there's an issue. Replying to it just makes it a bigger issue and requires more effort to clean things up.

Yes, that worked supremely well yesterday, when woot staff chose to leave chrysknife's post intact for hours after it was reported. I can't imagine how much more effort was required today to clean up my post in the Reckoning thread and all the replies to it. I suspect this has been a bit of a headache for woot since their customers began criticizing them for how the situation was handled.

My post, FWIW, was not about criticizing woot. Most of my post thanked my fellow numbers-watchers and the regular posters in the Reckoning thread in order to explain why another Reckoning regular would no longer be around; it also noted that I would return to the Reckoning thread in order to fulfill several tasks/responsibilities related to the Reckoning thread that I had promised to post to the Reckoning thread. Since that's quite clearly related to the Reckoning thread as woot has traditionally allowed it to exist, I do not understand the deletion of those comments. Perhaps woot wanted to give the impression that I was skipping out on my responsibilities and would not be fulfilling my promises?

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial

[snip one paragraph of Gatzby's post]

Gatzby wrote:Edit: Content that does not meet our guidelines should be treated equally, regardless of the tone of the post. Criticism is awesome, just make sure it's constructive.

If I am interpreting this correctly, chrysknife's criticism of me was considered constructive criticism (presumably, constructive criticism of me and my worth to humanity), but my post explaining that I would be taking a break from woot because I was struggling with inkycatz' choice to quote another customer saying that no one cared if I were murdered and her choice to respond that she would be sure that I saw that portion of his quote was in violation of woot's standards.

Woot, we are all human; we all make mistakes. The way your staff chose to handle the situation in the "Iron or Gold" thread involved mistakes. That's okay. It happens. Humans can acknowledge mistakes; humans can accept responsibility; humans can extend apologies; humans can forgive mistakes.

But woot, O woot, the way that your staff chose to handle the reality that your staff made mistakes yesterday
- by attempting to cover up their mistakes through deleting all mention of said errors in judgment?
- by failing to accept responsibility through sending another staff member to deny responsibility?
- by denying comfort to the victim of your mistake by deleting posts in support of her?

I don't need to be an I/O psychologist to know that you've violated just about every principle of managing mistakes made by your company. I don't need to be any kind of psychologist at all to know that you've provided a well-respected member of your community with motivation to ensure that other members of your community know that you do not find the murder of domestic violence victims to be distasteful or off-topic. I also don't need to be a psychologist to understand that you've offended many of the core members of this community who exert considerable effort cleaning up the missteps made by your staff or offering our knowledge so your staff doesn't need to respond.

We can't clean up this misstep for you; only you can do that.

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

amreli


quality posts: 8 Private Messages amreli

Well, I can piece together the gist of what happened and I'm sorry. I have to admit I'm another person who has become more disillusioned with woot recently and this sort of thing makes it even worse.


bounty42


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bounty42

So I went to reply to a comment and saw this:

Yeah! You Tell `Em
You're not gonna sit there and let that jerkface get away with saying that, are you?

Wow. Apparently Woot is PRO-Flame.



Numquam minoris aestimo potentia stultis, maxime in magna coetus
------------------------------------
■(1:40 PM, 7/27/2012) bounty42 quips, "Forget Guest Editor, what we need is a Guest Rejectionator."
■(10:40 AM, 6/21/2012 ) bounty42 inquires, "Is it just me, or do we not typically get this many Editors Choice shirts?"
■(2:02 PM, 6/15/2012) bounty42 runs numbers.
■(10:40 AM, 6/7/2012) bounty42 dispenses wisdom for all those 'too late' naysayers, "A woot shirt is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
■(3:20 PM, 5/18/2012) bounty42 states, "The turtle is very cute, and I love the smug look he's got."

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712
neuropsychosocial wrote:
But woot, O woot, the way that your staff chose to handle the reality that your staff made mistakes yesterday
- by attempting to cover up their mistakes through deleting all mention of said errors in judgment?
- by failing to accept responsibility through sending another staff member to deny responsibility?
- by denying comfort to the victim of your mistake by deleting posts in support of her?


We can't clean up this misstep for you; only you can do that.



Neuro, I'm glad that even though the positive messages for you were deleted you were still able to feel the support of some members of the woot community. The way everything happened with the situation was so troubling and the fact that woot pathetically tried to cover up what happened is what ultimately led to me starting this thread. I feel terribly about what happened and it can't be pushed aside, no matter how much woot wants to pretend like nothing bad happened.

Among the deleted posts from the reckoning thread were remarks from the two official woot folks responsible for the initial censorship and distasteful remark. While there was one apology, there was also one blatant refusal to address the f-up. In that thread I wrote that Neuro should be getting a long, sincere apology and explanation from woot (privately of course) and if that has not happened yet, SHAME ON YOU WOOT.

Folks at woot will offer halfhearted attempts to redirect conversations when the discussion gets a little personal, but when they screw up as royally as they have here, there's little to no acknowledgement. Well, besides deleting or editing posts. How dare you speak of the importance of community but not apologize when you've upset someone so much.

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712
blanked wrote:Yes, behind the screen is a real person, same with those doing the moderating. If you make allowance one way you need to make them the other too. And direct your anger at the troll who, for sh*** and giggles, flamed someone who was a victim of domestic abuse. They have forfeited their allowances.



No one is saying that the jerk who made the initial comment should be defended. If anything I said before gave that impression, then I am sorry.

My issue was with the fact that the message left to replace the censored comments was along the lines of "remarks that are directed at an individual and are cruel, insensitive won't be tolerated" but then, a snippet was left behind because a woot staffer had quoted it before writing a glib response. Snarky comments are part of woot, but sweet baby Jesus, there is no way to justify what was not only left behind but also said in response.

Then what did Woot do? They tried to delete all evidence of the initial exchange and all of the remarks that called out woot on having folks here commenting and controlling the boards that screwed up royally. The "human error" excuse doesn't fly for what woot did. "Moral failure" seems a bit more appropriate.

bounty42


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bounty42
neuropsychosocial wrote: I was, to say the least, utterly flabbergasted by the way that woot has handled this situation (including some private communication to me from woot staff). I had no idea how to respond.


aerc712 wrote:
Then what did Woot do? They tried to delete all evidence of the initial exchange and all of the remarks that called out woot on having folks here commenting and controlling the boards that screwed up royally. The "human error" excuse doesn't fly for what woot did. "Moral failure" seems a bit more appropriate.



It's a small throw away in the bigger picture, but it sounds as though they ALSO sent some unacceptable personal messages as well.



Numquam minoris aestimo potentia stultis, maxime in magna coetus
------------------------------------
■(1:40 PM, 7/27/2012) bounty42 quips, "Forget Guest Editor, what we need is a Guest Rejectionator."
■(10:40 AM, 6/21/2012 ) bounty42 inquires, "Is it just me, or do we not typically get this many Editors Choice shirts?"
■(2:02 PM, 6/15/2012) bounty42 runs numbers.
■(10:40 AM, 6/7/2012) bounty42 dispenses wisdom for all those 'too late' naysayers, "A woot shirt is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
■(3:20 PM, 5/18/2012) bounty42 states, "The turtle is very cute, and I love the smug look he's got."

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712
bounty42 wrote:It's a small throw away in the bigger picture, but it sounds as though they ALSO sent some unacceptable personal messages as well.



Oops, missed the part where Neuro mentioned the private messages.

It's one thing to quickly comment without thinking, but if the private messages also added to the situation and made it worse, then something is very wrong with the folks at woot.

anoted


quality posts: 1 Private Messages anoted

I wish this surprised me. But it doesn't.

One of the great things about the internet is that you get smart talented people volunteering their time and expertise to help communities (whether they're centered around commerce or not). They take time out of their days to help strangers, some of whom become friends. It's particularly remarkable in communities like this one where really, woot! is a business. And there are people who are paid money who are supposed to be catching mistakes and helping people. But people are still randomly kind, volunteering, getting nothing in return from the company. Even though they are helping the company keep costs down because they don't have to hire they people it would take to do the job if their customers just stopped volunteering one day.

The problem is that employees are human. They can be great or terrible. People are lazy, petty and sometimes downright mean and vicious and sometimes they take that to work with them. But when they post on woot or write e-mails or anything else as an employee, they aren't being seen as a person, but as the company.

So you need people to speak for your company daily, you want to hire great people and make sure that they respect each person who walks through their virtual doors. But at some point or another you'll have some sort of problem.

When this happens, the only way to handle things is to have clear, firm company policies and transparency. So if one employee screws up, you can complain and instead of getting wish--wash excuses, someone else is able to restore deleted posts if appropriate, apologize and let you know that the matter is being taken care of.

People are going to screw up at work. Sometimes they just made a mistake, sometimes they are the mistake. I don't think anyone expects perfection from a company. I don't expect it from anyone. But I do expect that when a mistake is made that it's owned up to and an attempt is made to fix it or prevent it from happening again. Society expects that. We expect that from people in our lives, from children. Your having a delete button does not make you exempt. And it just draws more attention to the problem. Before the problem was one or two individual staff members. Due to the course you've chosen, and until such time until a course correction is made it's the company as a whole. The longer you stand by this path, the greater a course correction.will be needed.

Well Woot!, what have you got to say for yourself? A message of love or hope? A subtle hint about how the community thing isn't really a community but more of a way for you to get free labour? What have you got to say?

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday

Add me to the list of people completely not surprised. However, I don't think it has a single thing to do about the vagaries of humanity. In my experience woot applies its moderation rules pretty consistently. The problem is that the rules are completely devoid of logic and full of hypocrisy.

Here are the rules. If you say something critical against a shirt or artist you will be deleted for mentioning anything that is not a concrete observation on the design (and sometimes then too).

If you respond to a critical comment you are allowed strawmen, ad hominem attacks, false logic, or anything else you would like to throw in because your comment is a negative of a negative and therefore positive so ok.

If the original commenter responds to ad hominem attacks or anything else from the second poster that is now a negative of a negative of a negative and therefore negative so you get deleted and probably probation unless it's your first time.

The only exception to this rule is if multiple back and forths occur before the mods become aware of it. In that case the original comment will be deleted, and all further comments by the original poster will be deleted. The first response will always be left. Further portions will be left or deleted depending on whether or not they still make sense with all of the original poster's comments gone.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

TiraNomChu


quality posts: 5 Private Messages TiraNomChu

oh, well that must be why I have such a tough time following some of the discussions around here. too bad there's no way to really re-read the posts (besides, from what I understand, it doesn't sound like anyone would want to spread that can of worms around again)

The only thing I hope from this situation is that the one who made the (apparently disturbing) comments about violence was banned or in some way punished? it's terrible that the victim gets caught in the crossfire, but i hope that at least something was done about THAT situation.

anoted


quality posts: 1 Private Messages anoted
mrwednesday wrote:Add me to the list of people completely not surprised. However, I don't think it has a single thing to do about the vagaries of humanity. In my experience woot applies its moderation rules pretty consistently. The problem is that the rules are completely devoid of logic and full of hypocrisy.

Here are the rules. If you say something critical against a shirt or artist you will be deleted for mentioning anything that is not a concrete observation on the design (and sometimes then too).

If you respond to a critical comment you are allowed strawmen, ad hominem attacks, false logic, or anything else you would like to throw in because your comment is a negative of a negative and therefore positive so ok.

If the original commenter responds to ad hominem attacks or anything else from the second poster that is now a negative of a negative of a negative and therefore negative so you get deleted and probably probation unless it's your first time.

The only exception to this rule is if multiple back and forths occur before the mods become aware of it. In that case the original comment will be deleted, and all further comments by the original poster will be deleted. The first response will always be left. Further portions will be left or deleted depending on whether or not they still make sense with all of the original poster's comments gone.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?



Very. So it's not that they don't have real rules and are aimlessly pulling the trigger and then giving reasons like OT, it's that they have a set of rules separate to the ones they publish and quote in defense of their actions.

And they do have a logic, albeit a donkey-backward one.

This behavior is not fit for any kind of company or community. Those are the kind of weird sadistic rules you find on message boards where a power hunger person like to watch fights start, swoop in and "break them up", delete almost everything, innocent or not, and punish everyone to restore order.

Is woot being run by teenagers? Because it really seems like it sometimes.

Narfcake


quality posts: 287 Private Messages Narfcake
TiraNomChu wrote:The only thing I hope from this situation is that the one who made the (apparently disturbing) comments about violence was banned or in some way punished? it's terrible that the victim gets caught in the crossfire, but i hope that at least something was done about THAT situation.


You have more waaaaaaaaaayyy hope than I do.

(My basis is that they couldn't even task themselves for banning a proven art thief from a situation that had lawyers involved.)

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
TiraNomChu wrote:The only thing I hope from this situation is that the one who made the (apparently disturbing) comments about violence was banned or in some way punished? it's terrible that the victim gets caught in the crossfire, but i hope that at least something was done about THAT situation.

I think the standard penalty for personal attacks is a 96 hour probation from posting to the forums.

move along

bluejester


quality posts: 564 Private Messages bluejester

I just noticed that Neuro's comments and my comments/jibes about the post feeling familiar was just completely scrubbed from the latest side sale. It wasn't anything overtly negative, just us joking around and poking a little fun, but those got the chop? Not to sound accusatory, but was somebody a bit touchy about it or did we offend anybody? It makes me sad that a couple people making light humor suddenly has to be scrubbed.

What's going on Woot guys and gals? This just makes me all sorts of sad, and just totally killed my mood before heading to bed. It's not like it was award winning humor or something heartfelt, just a little whimsy. Are you guys trying to take the whimsey out of Woot? Talk about a downer. =(

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
bluejester wrote:I just noticed that Neuro's comments and my comments/jibes about the post feeling familiar was just completely scrubbed from the latest side sale. It wasn't anything overtly negative, just us joking around and poking a little fun, but those got the chop? Not to sound accusatory, but was somebody a bit touchy about it or did we offend anybody? It makes me sad that a couple people making light humor suddenly has to be scrubbed.

What's going on Woot guys and gals? This just makes me all sorts of sad, and just totally killed my mood before heading to bed. It's not like it was award winning humor or something heartfelt, just a little whimsy. Are you guys trying to take the whimsey out of Woot? Talk about a downer. =(

What time were those posted? The side sale went through a few resets before the final went up, if it was after midnight CST, then tsk. tsk. on Woot.

eta: In the grand scheme of things, there were no posts.

move along

ThunderThighs


quality posts: 565 Private Messages ThunderThighs

Staff

bluejester wrote:I just noticed that Neuro's comments and my comments/jibes about the post feeling familiar was just completely scrubbed from the latest side sale. It wasn't anything overtly negative, just us joking around and poking a little fun, but those got the chop? Not to sound accusatory, but was somebody a bit touchy about it or did we offend anybody? It makes me sad that a couple people making light humor suddenly has to be scrubbed.

What's going on Woot guys and gals? This just makes me all sorts of sad, and just totally killed my mood before heading to bed. It's not like it was award winning humor or something heartfelt, just a little whimsy. Are you guys trying to take the whimsey out of Woot? Talk about a downer. =(


Just wanted the thread to have a clean start. Many people didn't notice that the thread posted early so it just confused the conversation about the shirts.

Besides, that little booboo is our secret. Okay? Shhhhhhhh.



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bounty42


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bounty42
ThunderThighs wrote:Just wanted the thread to have a clean start. Many people didn't notice that the thread posted early so it just confused the conversation about the shirts.

Besides, that little booboo is our secret. Okay? Shhhhhhhh.



Woot has lots of secrets these days. Early sales, edit policies, the SALES NUMBERS.

I'm punching out here before I invoke a Goodwins.



Numquam minoris aestimo potentia stultis, maxime in magna coetus
------------------------------------
■(1:40 PM, 7/27/2012) bounty42 quips, "Forget Guest Editor, what we need is a Guest Rejectionator."
■(10:40 AM, 6/21/2012 ) bounty42 inquires, "Is it just me, or do we not typically get this many Editors Choice shirts?"
■(2:02 PM, 6/15/2012) bounty42 runs numbers.
■(10:40 AM, 6/7/2012) bounty42 dispenses wisdom for all those 'too late' naysayers, "A woot shirt is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to."
■(3:20 PM, 5/18/2012) bounty42 states, "The turtle is very cute, and I love the smug look he's got."