Shirt.Woot

I think it's great that woot is acknowledging that the derby is in dire need of some variety in both winning artists and style. I hope that the editors use this weekly pick to emphasize quality artwork, great ideas, excellent takes on the theme, and deserving new artists.

I think it's very important to keep the guest editor a secret until the derby is over at least so that person isn't flooded with attempts to buy them or potential harassment.

It should be fine this week as I'm sure Bass will enjoy all the attention :P and it may not apply to celebrity or non-woot guest editors, but with derby regulars and community members I think there could be trouble. There is a prize at stake and money involved!

benjaminleebates wrote:Maybe we can entice back some of those great artist who won infrequently and therefore went away?
Can anyone get a hold of Drakxxx?
We need a Drakxxx signal!

He was the 3rd post in this very thread, blossom. :P

http://shirt.woot.com/forums/viewpost.aspx?postid=5100757&pageindex=1&replycount=80#post5100778

GUEST EDITOR change
--------------
Option 1:

I love the idea but I'd like to see the Guest pick 3-5 entries as potential winners and then have the staff pick one from those. Let's say for whatever reason I was a Guest, I wouldn't pick a Drakxxx design if he had a solo purely because I'd be accused of playing favorites or cheating since we've worked together a lot. I've also made it known that CMDixon2 is one of my favorite designers. But it would also be unfair to not pick those designs if I thought they were worthy. It would take the "blame" or "pressure" or whatever off the guest if they didn't pick ONE definitive entry. A lot of people are friends with a lot of other users. They shouldn't be pressured, accused or blamed. I'd like to believe everyone is an adult and responsible but when money is involved, people get stupid I hate to say. I also think the guest shouldn't be revealed at all. That should be between the Woot staff and the Guest only.
--------------------------------
Option 2:

Always have 3-5 guests who each pick 1-2 winners and the staff picks based on their feedback. Either way, no one woot user is in control of handing anyone a grand. I like that you trust the community and I really would like some new eyes making some good cases for non-top 3 entries, but you guys need to have final word I think. Those are my initial thoughts anyway. I just picture too much back alley emailing going on and we really don't need that.

EDIT: At the very least, don't announce the judge beforehand. Otherwise, least some of the entries, will be designed to cater to the judges style or taste. Catering is why the fog looks the way it does. Catering for votes. Lets not continue the same problem please.

tgentry wrote:Just a few points:

- We're looking at a lot of different avenues to choose our guest editors. It could be artists, staff members, voters/community participants that we think stand out... anyone that we think offers something valuable to the site and might have a fresh and valuable perspective.

- The fog will remain as is.

- The guest editor(s) can still submit designs, but obviously can't pick their own. We'll work with the guest editors to refine what the selection process will look like. I'm excited about the Guest Editor the most because it gets you guys into the fold and gets a lot of new perspectives into the derby and what ultimately gets printed. It's sort of a wild card from week to week and could be really exciting.

- Regarding the guest editors, I think when we approach a community member, it's because we think they have the integrity and ability to honor the process, but that's of course something we'll watch as part of this experiment.

Glad to see the positive response. I'm excited about it to say the least.

EDIT: I also want to add... obviously first place is purely vote driven, but I know we as the editors will also be looking closely at votes and factoring that into our decisions. Votes still count, so keep on voting.

Mr. Gentry - I buy a lot of Woot shirts - I believe I am highly qualified to be a guest editor. I have been here since the inception of shirt.woot. Consider me a Woot shirt philanthropist. I have never submitted any art work, but I have voted in every derby for the last few years.

klynb wrote:Ask and ye shall receive....

i hate cats, but that is hilarious.

I really like this. I've noticed how sometimes the artist's name will win votes, or people will go pop-culture crazy. I hope this allows for more diversity in the reckoning. Also this gives late and resubmitted entries a better chance, since most of the time, they are not able to catch up with the votes.

This feels like it's going to be a positive experience, way to go Woot!

tgentry wrote:My hope is that the move increases diversity from the derby. We now have three different prints coming from three different channels: the voting public, Woot, and an ever-changing guest editor. Hopefully we see positive results, but again, we do consider this an experiment. We're as curious as you are to see how it turns out.

ever thought of having the guest editor pick the theme? who wants to pick a design from a theme that doesn't interest them?

also, someone else mentioned maybe stop submissions before voting starts, I think that's a great idea.

CrescentDebris wrote:GUEST EDITOR change
--------------
Option 1:

I love the idea but I'd like to see the Guest pick 3-5 entries as potential winners and then have the staff pick one from those. Let's say for whatever reason I was a Guest, I wouldn't pick a Drakxxx design if he had a solo purely because I'd be accused of playing favorites or cheating since we've worked together a lot. I've also made it known that CMDixon2 is one of my favorite designers. But it would also be unfair to not pick those designs if I thought they were worthy. It would take the "blame" or "pressure" or whatever off the guest if they didn't pick ONE definitive entry. A lot of people are friends with a lot of other users. They shouldn't be pressured, accused or blamed. I'd like to believe everyone is an adult and responsible but when money is involved, people get stupid I hate to say. I also think the guest shouldn't be revealed at all. That should be between the Woot staff and the Guest only.
--------------------------------
Option 2:

Always have 3-5 guests who each pick 1-2 winners and the staff picks based on their feedback. Either way, no one woot user is in control of handing anyone a grand. I like that you trust the community and I really would like some new eyes making some good cases for non-top 3 entries, but you guys need to have final word I think. Those are my initial thoughts anyway. I just picture too much back alley emailing going on and we really don't need that.

EDIT: At the very least, don't announce the judge beforehand. Otherwise, least some of the entries, will be designed to cater to the judges style or taste. Catering is why the fog looks the way it does. Catering for votes. Lets not continue the same problem please.

I think you've brought up some really valuable points. I hope that the woot-folks give your thoughtful comment consideration.

Personally, I love this pretty major change. I'm fascinated to see how it plays out. I really hope it does increase the diversity, not only of the prints, but mostly of the submissions to the derby.

All of this discussion is so much fun. I have high hopes for the variety of designs and winning artists that come from this. The guest editor thing sounds super fun, of purse, but also like quite the responsibility. Woot's gonna put one whole day in the hands of a single user.

I think in terms of diversity, this will shake things up. Some people will loose future money too (the constant derby winners).

Other than that I think this move will make the derby becomes less exciting, because now votes become less important. It's almost like 1 derby and 6 dailies.

I predict there will be less drama in the thread.

Gotta say Im looking forwards to seeing how this change affects things. I think its a great idea and as many others have already said, definitely should help counter the "I submitted late and will never catch up with the votes".

I hope there aren't too many teething problems and everything goes smoothly because ideas like this that (hopefully) make things more interesting and perhaps fair deserve to succeed.

grrlmarvel wrote:I like that those who don't get their designs in at the bell will have a chance. There are a lot of strong entries every week that just didn't "post" at the right time. I'm glad to see some of those folks getting a chance at printing. I hope this will encourage more artists to submit as well.

This was EXACTLY my thought! YaY!!

So, SO pleased to see this shake-up in the rules. I liked this idea when it was first being bandied about the forums a couple of years ago, and I'm no less enthused about it now.

Unfortunately I personally still won't be buying shirts (nothing fits), but the new process certainly sounds like it will put some life back into the derby process.

I'll admit to having felt a little burnt out on Woot lately - the lack of diversity and glut of repetitive pop culture memes being the primary reasons for my waning interest, even moreso than the blank switch. (Anvil was more the 'nail in the coffin'.)

Now I've got a reason to start checking out the derby once more, as there's actually a chance some of the criminally underappreciated designs I love best (which typically seem to fall outside the fog, somewhere between 10th and 20th place) will receive due recognition!

The unexepectedness and element of surprise are likely enough to keep me around for a while, even if my wallet is to remain closed for the foreseeable future! (Thereby eliminating my already miniscule chances of ever guest-editing, I'm certain.)

Well done, Woot!

In the early days of the derby, wasn't 1st place the only shirt to print? I wasn't around then, but can someone who was talk about the history of changes to the derby?

As long as the ninjas still get up there, I'm happy with it.

CrescentDebris wrote:GUEST EDITOR change


EDIT: At the very least, don't announce the judge beforehand. Otherwise, least some of the entries, will be designed to cater to the judges style or taste. Catering is why the fog looks the way it does. Catering for votes. Lets not continue the same problem please.

I was thinking some variety of this thought earlier. And that guest editors, if derbying artists, should at least sit out the derby they're guest editing for. Of course, if one wants the guest editor to be anonymous, then...oh, this is going to have interesting complications to sort out, isn't it.

LOVE the changes. This is the kind of thing I've been hoping for for a long, long time, Shirt.woot. This'll make it much easier, I think, for a new artist or few to break in on this site, while still keeping the community involved.

benjaminleebates wrote:Maybe we can entice back some of those great artist who won infrequently and therefore went away?
Can anyone get a hold of Drakxxx?
We need a Drakxxx signal!

I've had my share of glory here in the weekly contests, so I can promise that I won't ever forget about ol' shirt woot. I've taken a somewhat undisclosed hiatus to pursue some other things, and also, the themes as of recent have left me pretty stumped.

These new derby rules are fantastic though on many levels, and I can almost guarantee that me, and/or me and my pal Crescentdebris will be getting more involved and active with submissions.

Again, great news shirt woot!

Please bring back Mario, Dr. Who, Star Wars, Monty Python, and Zelda to Shirt!

Don't forget about all the number crunchers too. Just think of all the new and interesting ways they will find to calculate/collate/compare/compile & tally the derby data!

I like seeing lot of old shirtwoot commentors here. I hope this change also brings back our other favorite artists-in-hiatus.

As someone who consistently submits designs days into the derby I'm excited by the shake up. It will be interesting to see whether a balance is struck between weight of votes and strength of design when the top placeholders are announced. Regarding guest judges, I think it was good idea announcing bassanimation as the poster child for the launch. Whether it continually runs that way is something that can no doubt be fine tuned. Woot will have no shortage of candidates for the job. My guess is that artist's will put aside their bias. Bringing objectivity to your own designs can be tough, but putting a lot of other designs side-by-side and making sound design choices is what they are practiced at. I'm confident that they'll make good choices seeing as they only get the one chance to pick and they are under the scrutiny of such a large, vocal audience.
Only be suspicious if the first winner is a rodent design by someone calling themselves Bossanimation

THIS RUINS SHIRT.WOOT!

Just kidding, you guys are cool.

But... aren't the other 4 shirts during the week already selected by the editors? So doesn't this kind of mean that each week we get 1 voted shirt and 6 editor picked shirts?

I like having more power in the hands of the voters. =(

I agree that it's unfair that later submitted shirts don't really have a chance, but couldn't you remedy that problem by announcing the theme of the next derby a few days earlier so people have time to create their designs?

@woot team: Bold move, great idea.

THANK YOU for finally giving some fresh, less "popular" talent a chance to shine in the derby.

I've been hoping for something like this for more than the past year.

You will probably get more shirt sales from me, now.

I think this is an awesome idea! Way to go, Woot. I look forward to seeing more quality, thought out designs in the derbies!

Hugely welcome change.

If only the bizarrely-shaped women's t-shirt sizes would be adjusted.

Like the changes, hope that maybe someday I will get to be a guest judge

Change is good. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out, but first thought? Really off putting to see all the people 'volunteering' to be a guest judge.

The community has lost so many of the artists contributions and voices. I hope that this can bring them back.

Mavyn wrote:Change is good. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out, but first thought? Really off putting to see all the people 'volunteering' to be a guest judge.

Agreed. I think a lot of less confident people often think things like this will somehow confirm that they are popular in the community. I seriously hope that the guest judge spot doesn't become a popularity contest. That would just be so depressing

limberlost wrote:Please bring back Mario, Dr. Who, Star Wars, Monty Python, and Zelda to Shirt!

Please definitely DON'T bring these back! Watching shirts win just because they made a cute reference to a popular theme is boring and discouraging.

CrescentDebris wrote:
I love the idea but I'd like to see the Guest pick 3-5 entries as potential winners and then have the staff pick one from those...It would take the "blame" or "pressure" or whatever off the guest if they didn't pick ONE definitive entry. A lot of people are friends with a lot of other users. They shouldn't be pressured, accused or blamed. I'd like to believe everyone is an adult and responsible but when money is involved, people get stupid I hate to say. I also think the guest shouldn't be revealed at all. That should be between the Woot staff and the Guest only.
...EDIT: At the very least, don't announce the judge beforehand. Otherwise, least some of the entries, will be designed to cater to the judges style or taste. Catering is why the fog looks the way it does. Catering for votes. Lets not continue the same problem please.

Agreed, those are very good addendums to a change that's already pretty good on its own. It's gonna be a very interesting experiment. I hope it works out nicely.

I think I'm going to stand along as the curmudgeon who doesn't this this is going to solve the issues people think it will. While freeing 2 of the votes from the straight jacket of "last in" voting issues, I think tjost's 2nd place shirt with a Tuesday Noon submission stamp proves that for a truely good design, this isn't as big of an issue.

Also, while this might open up the field a little to the "less popular" artists, the people who print aren't just popular with the voters, but with the editors as well. I've got the feeling that 1 of the 2 editor selections is still going to be one of the top pool people, every week, and I'd be surprised if we ever see a shirt below 15th or so get a slot.

I'm also wondering if anyones loosed at Editor's Choice sales vs. 2nd Chance Derby Winner sales.

orabbit wrote:In the early days of the derby, wasn't 1st place the only shirt to print? I wasn't around then, but can someone who was talk about the history of changes to the derby?

i don't remember the exact timeline, but yes, they started with only printing the 1st place finisher on friday (so shirt.woot sold prints m-f, no new tees on the weekend). iirc, the prize was $200. the first derby theme was announced on friday (not thursday), the same time that entries were allowed and every1 scrambled to get a design in.

a bit later after the derby started, they went back and printed some of their favoured 2nd and 3rd place designs from the first few derbies. eventually they started printing #1-#3 regularly, going to a 7-days-a-week schedule. and they moved the theme announcement a day earlier (to thursday) and the prizes eventually ramped up to where they are today.

and they lived happily ever after. the end.

I'm delighted with the changes! Lately I haven't even been looking at the later-submitted designs, because it was too depressing to see a great one that had no chance of ever being sold.

And now maybe we'll see fewer cutsie cats and penguins, Dr. Who and Star Wars figures, and Starry Night variations. This opens the door to many more creative designs.

bounty42 wrote:
I've got the feeling that 1 of the 2 editor selections is still going to be one of the top pool people, every week, and I'd be surprised if we ever see a shirt below 15th or so get a slot.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic but I disagree, I don't think Woot would bother with this change if they were just going to EC the same things that win every week anyway.

I haven't been real happy lately with HM and EC choices but I think with a weekly EC from the derby it will free them up to take risks a little more. Woot has in the past been willing to pluck out the more quirky or unique designs with fewer votes and print them.

Also, there's no telling what the guest editors will pick. If you get nerd celebs like Wil Wheaton or Chris Hardwick looking over the derby for one they like it may very well be some brand new artist with a cool design in the middle of the pack that never got much attention from the masses. Plus I think certain community members or long time derby artists will be just as willing to bestow a print on a design that's different (but well done) or from an artist who doesn't get the recognition around here that they deserve.

Not sure how this will play out, but hope it rocks

bluetuba wrote:Also, there's no telling what the guest editors will pick. If you get nerd celebs like Wil Wheaton or Chris Hardwick looking over the derby for one they like it may very well be some brand new artist with a cool design in the middle of the pack that never got much attention from the masses.

idk, i can imagine woot asking an outside celeb to be guest editor, and the first thing they do when looking could be to rank by votes, start looking from the top down (counting on the voters to order them by "quality" and thereby save the celeb valuable time) and stop when they find something interesting, meaning the middle of the pack still mite not get noticed.

This is one of the best changes to woot in recent memory, but only if I get to be a guest editor one day purely because I'm cool.