orabbit


quality posts: 30 Private Messages orabbit
randomwordz321 wrote:Wow, anonymity really makes a lot of you jerks. I can't really do anything about most of you but when artists are being jerks to other artists or users, it really makes me not want to vote for your designs -- just so you know... it is about the art but it's also about not supporting a**holes.
If you have legitimate concerns or complaints, say them clearly and then be done.



If that's directed at me, all I said was that I wish I had what lyonscc had. A network of wooters to guarantee me 80+ votes on anything I submit. Others commented as they saw fit.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc

The rejectionator finally shows up but only rejects one shirt...seriously??

helo12


quality posts: 0 Private Messages helo12
lyonscc wrote:I get that. Part of the thing is, I submit usually 2-4 shirts a week, and most never make it halfway up the rankings. The 'invictus' shirt was one I'd already designed a month or two ago, and I have a group of friends (and a few family members) who have a lot of sentiment tied up in that poem. I actually 'lobbied' harder with that one - sending it out to a group of another 20-30 folks, mostly from my college days, because I knew they'd like it and probably buy one if it printed. (And FWIW, I wish that derby had come a few weeks later, as I was trying to figure a way to halftone it to use less ink.)

When I design shirts that have references to fantasy works (LotR, especially), I have another group I send a message to. (I used to sell thousands of LotR trading cards, and I've still got customer lists and a long list of friends that are LotR fans - plus I still make designs for TheOneRing.net)

This week, I sent a link to my Dark Tower shirt to a small group of friends that are Stephen King fans. A lot of good that has done me, in terms of vote total, you can probably see.

No insult taken, and I understand. I was quite frustrated when I first started designing here a year or so ago, until I started paying attention to what the more successful artists were doing to promote their work (in Facebook and elsewhere). Most of them are professional (or semi-professional) artists with folks that follow their artwork. In my case, I am a Professional Engineer (a registered PE, actually, though I've not had to use my registration for years), with a large network of friends and family who are somewhat nerdy/geeky like me, so that's who I leverage.

Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design. In the case of the Pi Rho Delta one, I got a number of thumbs down, but submitted it anyway (as it was a college joke fraternity we used to talk about, and sentiment overrode good sense).

So, I do get what you're saying. I just don't know how to best act on it, other than to make sure that the groups I target for support are ones that would actually buy the shirt.

Thanks again, and no offense taken.



I understand, there's nothing wrong with campaigning and it sounds like your votes are from genuine people that like the design and would buy the shirt. All you can really do is keep doing what you're doing. Democracy should prevail, so in the end what will win is what people want. I know I have a long way to go before mine get up there, haha. I'm glad you replied. Best of luck!

orabbit


quality posts: 30 Private Messages orabbit
lyonscc wrote:I get that. Part of the thing is, I submit usually 2-4 shirts a week, and most never make it halfway up the rankings. The 'invictus' shirt was one I'd already designed a month or two ago, and I have a group of friends (and a few family members) who have a lot of sentiment tied up in that poem. I actually 'lobbied' harder with that one - sending it out to a group of another 20-30 folks, mostly from my college days, because I knew they'd like it and probably buy one if it printed. (And FWIW, I wish that derby had come a few weeks later, as I was trying to figure a way to halftone it to use less ink.)

When I design shirts that have references to fantasy works (LotR, especially), I have another group I send a message to. (I used to sell thousands of LotR trading cards, and I've still got customer lists and a long list of friends that are LotR fans - plus I still make designs for TheOneRing.net)

This week, I sent a link to my Dark Tower shirt to a small group of friends that are Stephen King fans. A lot of good that has done me, in terms of vote total, you can probably see.

No insult taken, and I understand. I was quite frustrated when I first started designing here a year or so ago, until I started paying attention to what the more successful artists were doing to promote their work (in Facebook and elsewhere). Most of them are professional (or semi-professional) artists with folks that follow their artwork. In my case, I am a Professional Engineer (a registered PE, actually, though I've not had to use my registration for years), with a large network of friends and family who are somewhat nerdy/geeky like me, so that's who I leverage.

Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design. In the case of the Pi Rho Delta one, I got a number of thumbs down, but submitted it anyway (as it was a college joke fraternity we used to talk about, and sentiment overrode good sense).

So, I do get what you're saying. I just don't know how to best act on it, other than to make sure that the groups I target for support are ones that would actually buy the shirt.

Thanks again, and no offense taken.



I feel the need to address this so as not to be seen as passive aggressive. Chris, I've got no personal beef with you, in fact we had a nice chat last week. My problem is that it seems as though you're in an echo chamber. You've got a guaranteed vote bloc, so it seems as though every idea you submit is a hit. You're not getting the same feedback as other artists as to what works and what doesn't. If anyone else had submitted "Sammiches For Supermodels", for example, it would have struggled to break 30 votes, IMO, and they would have learned from that misstep. Or maybe I'm just out of touch with what the voters want. For example - do they want a Dread Pirate Roberts shirt? To look at your entry, yes. To look at mine, no. Are the two designs that different?

Anyway, I'm in awe of your voting network. I have to explain what Woot is to everyone I know, and convincing them to buy something to earn a vote has proved difficult. It's great that you have so many friends and family members that are Woot shoppers. I am jealous, and that is the cause of my passive aggressive comments.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
randomwordz321 wrote:Wow, anonymity really makes a lot of you jerks. I can't really do anything about most of you but when artists are being jerks to other artists or users, it really makes me not want to vote for your designs -- just so you know... it is about the art but it's also about not supporting a**holes.
If you have legitimate concerns or complaints, say them clearly and then be done.



Some a**holes in here ask for the abuse. They don't follow the rules, they throw crap out here that's not even remotely art, they're hacks, and then they get their loyal band of followers to vote them into the fog. So yes, "real" artist, the ones who can truly draw without using clip art and photos, get a little ticked off. Personally, I hope you never vote for me.

lotsofgoats


quality posts: 3 Private Messages lotsofgoats
randomwordz321 wrote:If you have legitimate concerns or complaints, say them clearly and then be done.



I don't think that having an army of people who will vote regardless of design quality is doing a service to the derby or to the quality of lyonscc's work. Yes, he has some good designs that hit the fog -- I acknowledged him for this (go see!). The fact remains that there are others that simply aren't good, and I'm not saying that in terms of my personal taste and what I would wear (which is a very small set), but rather on the theme or idea and its execution.

I get wanting to use your resources, but it turns the derby into a popularity contest. I don't care at all what name pops up next to the winning designs, I just want them to be the best of the bunch.

lotsofgoats


quality posts: 3 Private Messages lotsofgoats
lyonscc wrote:Sometimes, I test designs on a few of them before ever submitting them, and if I get a thumbs down, I don't submit the design.



This sounds like the best way to make use of your network. The broad group here is more than willing to suggest tweaks, so I can only imagine what some more fine-tuned audiences would come up with when it comes to pop-culture references and the like.

lyonscc


quality posts: 5 Private Messages lyonscc
orabbit wrote:I feel the need to address this so as not to be seen as passive aggressive. Chris, I've got no personal beef with you, in fact we had a nice chat last week. My problem is that it seems as though you're in an echo chamber. You've got a guaranteed vote bloc, so it seems as though every idea you submit is a hit. You're not getting the same feedback as other artists as to what works and what doesn't. If anyone else had submitted "Sammiches For Supermodels", for example, it would have struggled to break 30 votes, IMO, and they would have learned from that misstep. Or maybe I'm just out of touch with what the voters want. For example - do they want a Dread Pirate Roberts shirt? To look at your entry, yes. To look at mine, no. Are the two designs that different?

Anyway, I'm in awe of your voting network. I have to explain what Woot is to everyone I know, and convincing them to buy something to earn a vote has proved difficult. It's great that you have so many friends and family members that are Woot shoppers. I am jealous, and that is the cause of my passive aggressive comments.



No problems, and I do understand the frustration. I think back to a couple of weeks ago when folks were upset with Walmazan's Cat science design that got, like, 25 positive comments in less than an hour (it seemed like). While some seemed to think there was something shady going on, it took me a few minutes, but I realized that he must have sent out some sort of blast communication to his network. Ramyb supposedly had a list of several hundred folks he could email to get tons of votes on most every design. (and FTR, I'm not claiming to be in their league by any stretch of the imagination - I am not - I'm just using them as examples of folks who I've observed using the social network to boost their vote totals.)

You mentioned "Sammiches for Supermodels". I think it was the tagline ("World Hunger Tour"), and the odd title that got the votes, more than the artistic design. (From a little bit of observation with a small sample set of non-artists, if you can get someone to click on the thumbnail to view your design, and if they even chuckle at the joke, chances are they will vote for it).

You probably didn't notice, but my Gardenian Rhapsody design (which I actually liked much more than the SfS shirt) finished the week with 40 votes. (And when it comes to "guaranteed votes" - my sister and Christian and some of my other friends frequently refuse to vote for shirts they don't like - and tell me they dislike them. My sister didn't vote for my Donner Party one that printed, and probably wouldn't wear it if I bought her one. My son owns two, and a bag. Go figure.)

Most of my designs don't go much of anywhere, especially if they're posted after the first hour on Friday. (Which, IMO, is still the leading factor in whether a shirt prints or not.) I honestly didn't expect this Dread Pirate Roberts shirt to do as well as it's done (and I hope I'm not jinxing it), simply because I submitted it almost a day late.

Looking at our two designs - I like your skull and the shading very much. I think mine is a little more in-your-face with the movie reference (and that it uses the plural, for English majors out there), and looks a little more "piratey". That's probably the difference, IMO.

As for friends that are Woot shoppers - I had all sorts of friends who tried to get me to be a Wooter for months before I bought anything. (Christian, thePenrod, above, finally got me to the dark side, and we would have Woot-off parties, where we tried to get B0C's). So, with Woot, I actually felt like I was late to the party. Part of this, I think, is because I was in the LotR card business and played in tournaments here in town at GenCon, where I hung out with the exact sort of crowd that woots.

One thing you probably don't see is that I have dozens of designs that go nowhere (and often, I will just pull them before the end of the first day with the red "x", if I think I can rework them for a later derby) - like the Dark Tower and Pi Rho designs this week. During the winter, I deal with insomnia quite a bit, so that gives me more time to design (and more chances to learn from failure). So, I do tend to learn from failure, but I try to shorten the learning cycle as much as I can...

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
tomspc wrote:The rejectionator finally shows up but only rejects one shirt...seriously??


The rejectionator is a busy robot. Any design with a snowball's chance of printing can safely be ignored. Fogged designs seem to need an act of congress or just blatant violations to reject. Some claim there's legal involvement and it takes longer, but I haven't seen that spelled out anywhere, nor do I see the validity in that statement.

move along

jacksorbetter


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jacksorbetter

Love the concept. Kai the "Hitch Hiking" "Smash Smaaash Smaaaash" dude is a "Hero" in my eyes.
Hope your design prints. I'd luv to wear it.

ENarciso


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ENarciso
tomspc wrote:Some a**holes in here ask for the abuse. They don't follow the rules, they throw crap out here that's not even remotely art, they're hacks, and then they get their loyal band of followers to vote them into the fog. So yes, "real" artist, the ones who can truly draw without using clip art and photos, get a little ticked off. Personally, I hope you never vote for me.



I like you, Tom. Couldn't have said it better myself. Using a giant network of people to get votes isn't doing anyone any service. It's allowing shirts that no one (Actual wooters who buy lots of shirts) wants to rise in the ranks, just so someone can make a buck and say "I made that". And frankly, it pisses me off to see shirts using horrible effects and stolen "reworked" graphics in the fog, when there are dozens of beautifully drawn shirts struggling for even 10 votes.

blackbirdps3


quality posts: 0 Private Messages blackbirdps3
Re: Cat's Eyes Wide Shut


I'm ridiculously happy to see that my drawing reached over 60 votes. It makes me feel like all my effort is appreciated. Thanks to everyone who voted and all those who will. TO THE FOG!

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
lyonscc wrote:Ramyb supposedly had a list of several hundred folks he could email to get tons of votes on most every design. (and FTR, I'm not claiming to be in their league by any stretch of the imagination - I am not -



I actually see some similarities between you and Ramyb, and if you aren't careful you might end up as disliked as he.

- Designs deemed "less artistic" by the community (Ramy draws crude but shiny chibi or repetative swirl, you do graphic design and text but no drawing)

- Has large outside following that noticeably votes up entries

- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..

- Works hard to get around derby rules, themes, and the rejectionator

- Has fanboi posters that will vehemently defend and threaten critics, often on anon accounts.

- Has a loud hate club

tjschaeffer


quality posts: 7 Private Messages tjschaeffer
Re: Dread Pirate Guild (v2)



Suddenly lyonscc has become the new ramyb, but without all the success (no offense meant, I'm talking purely about derby wins). I'm having trouble understanding what the complaint is all about. Is the problem how quickly he is in the fog? Or that he's using his social network to get votes? Or that his designs aren't "artistic" enough? All of the above?

I'm not a successful artist, but it seems to me that there's always been an allowance and encouragement by woot to use social media. How is his method different than walmazan giving away free stuff to people who comment on his derby entries (not a criticism of walmazan, I actually think it is a brilliant use of fan base!)?

I just have a hard time seeing what the complaints really are. Do I like all of lyonscc's designs? No, definitely not. But he takes advantage of the bonus of early submissions and uses his network in a woot approved way, just like everyone else tries to do.

fuzzzydunlop


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fuzzzydunlop
bluetuba wrote:I actually see some similarities between you and Ramyb, and if you aren't careful you might end up as disliked as he.

- Designs deemed "less artistic" by the community (Ramy draws crude but shiny chibi or repetative swirl, you do graphic design and text but no drawing)

- Has large outside following that noticeably votes up entries

- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..

- Works hard to get around derby rules, themes, and the rejectionator

- Has fanboi posters that will vehemently defend and threaten critics, often on anon accounts.

- Has a loud hate club



Whether you love him or hate him, Ramy makes designs that people like. He has the sales numbers to back that up.

People are mad because lyonscc's concepts are usually pretty bad, and he's not a good graphic designer. He's been called out several times for live tracing photos, denied it, then changes his story as more evidence comes out.

If he spent more time working at understanding how graphic design works, and just just a bunch of filters, and worked hard at becoming a good designer, people wouldn't be mad at all. There are several designers here who started out without much of a clue and through hard work became successful. With $1000 on the line, it's easier to try to manipulate the voting system than it is to do the hard work needed to become a respected designer.

Look at the voting totals in the last few months. 100 built in votes gives you an amazing head start on all of the other designs.

lyonscc


quality posts: 5 Private Messages lyonscc
bluetuba wrote:I actually see some similarities between you and Ramyb, and if you aren't careful you might end up as disliked as he.

Designs deemed "less artistic" by the community (Ramy draws crude but shiny chibi or repetative swirl, you do graphic design and text but no drawing)


I recognize that I need to use more drawing in my work, which is actually what I'm trying to learn (using vectors to translate my drawings from analog to digital). I got a nice Wacom pad for Christmas, and have been practicing with a number of sources to improve this. So I definitely recognize that I need to draw more and incorporate that into my designs. I didn't realize, though, that a lack of drawing was some sort of disqualification...

- Has large outside following that noticeably votes up entries


If 20-30 (sometimes with another 10-40 if the subject matter matches the interest group)is a "large outside following", Ok. I guess I see the most successful artists doing this, with a much larger fan base, so I don't see the problem. If my design were to win, I'm pretty sure most of the folks on my list would buy one (as was the case with the two shirts I've printed).

- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..



Not sure I see this. I usually don't post much at all, positive or negative - I'm too busy during the day with my job to read the boards most of the time. I'm just in bed with the flu today, so I've had more time to read (and sleep).

- Works hard to get around derby rules, themes, and the rejectionator


I'd disagree with this, but I know that I have had disagreements (primarily over IP references, IIRC). I wouldn't say that I try to work around the rules, but (as other artists have commented) sometimes you start with one idea, and by the time you're done, you've crossed some line in the week's rules.

I know there was the issue last fall with the Eye of Sauron design and my question about clip art that ticked folks off (completely unintentionally), so I've altered my design process so as to avoid this.

- Has fanboi posters that will vehemently defend and threaten critics, often on anon accounts.


You've got me at a loss here. I don't remember this ever happening.

- Has a loud hate club


Until this moment, I'd wonder about this, too. Maybe I'm oblivious, but until thePenrod said something awhile ago, I didn't know anyone was complaining about anything.

I am aware, though, now, and I will make sure that the folks I send email/tag FB posts to are folks who would buy the shirt.

Sorry if I've caused any offense...

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
- Posts alot, calling out critics and decrying "haters hating for no reason" Ramy did in his heyday anyway..


lyonscc wrote:Not sure I see this. I usually don't post much at all, positive or negative - I'm too busy during the day with my job to read the boards most of the time. I'm just in bed with the flu today, so I've had more time to read (and sleep).



LyonCC - you post a lot and every post is practically a dissertation. Thanks for the laugh!

lyonscc


quality posts: 5 Private Messages lyonscc
fuzzzydunlop wrote:
(snipped rant)

Look at the voting totals in the last few months. 100 built in votes gives you an amazing head start on all of the other designs.


When I look back over the voting totals, I see quite a few designs with 60-80 fewer votes than the "100 built in votes" you seem to think I have. I do have some designs that did very well, and quite a few that went nowhere.

I'm always looking to improve, and you can't improve if you don't have a lot of failure along the way...

windwounder


quality posts: 0 Private Messages windwounder
helo12 wrote:Just a fun idea I had thought of. I remember how cool I thought those hidden messages were in comics, magazines and stickers when I was a kid. Just use a red filter of some sorts to see the message, it should still be slightly visible without a filter but for those who can't see it try the filter. Let me know what you guys think!



Cool I just had to shift the laptop a little to see it.

rcg4


quality posts: 0 Private Messages rcg4
meise wrote:This one made me laugh out loud! So funny



Thanks!

lyonscc


quality posts: 5 Private Messages lyonscc

Also, seeing how this causes strife, I'll cut back on my use of social media during the first several days of a derby, until a design has done well/poorly with the smaller community here...

orabbit


quality posts: 30 Private Messages orabbit
lyonscc wrote:Also, seeing how this causes strife, I'll cut back on my use of social media during the first several days of a derby, until a design has done well/poorly with the smaller community here...



You shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot. Do what you do, unless you want a truer picture of what the pure Woot community thinks of a design.

lyonscc


quality posts: 5 Private Messages lyonscc
orabbit wrote:You shouldn't shoot yourself in the foot. Do what you do, unless you want a truer picture of what the pure Woot community thinks of a design.



I don't think it's so much "shooting myself in the foot", as it is with preventing the "echo chamber" appearance, etc. I'll still send it to family & close friends right away, buy leave the affinity lists for later in the week, if it's still doing well...

randomwordz321


quality posts: 0 Private Messages randomwordz321
tomspc wrote:Some a**holes in here ask for the abuse. They don't follow the rules, they throw crap out here that's not even remotely art, they're hacks, and then they get their loyal band of followers to vote them into the fog. So yes, "real" artist, the ones who can truly draw without using clip art and photos, get a little ticked off. Personally, I hope you never vote for me.



Tom, I didn't know you were an artist. I don't think I've ever seen any of your designs.

My main point, and I apologize for not making it all that well, or making it seem like it was only happening on this particular thread, is that it bothers me to see others (especially other artists) get petty (and no, Orabbit, I was not referring to you) because a design they don't like (or don't think is artsy enough?) is too popular.
Yes, there are horrible designs and completely copied designs and sometimes the rejectionator doesn't do its job that well... but (but!) everyone in here should accept that if they're going to enter new designs. Only Woot can change that.

Also, there's money potential to be had! Money!

It is ultimately Woot's job to fix the problems and to set and enforce the rules. If they don't enforce their own rules to our standards we cannot just take over for them by being mean.

Besides, art is a matter of personal taste. Other people might really love what you think is horrible (even complete strangers to the artist!) It's like assuming Thomas Kindade is so popular only because he's a hack and cheating. I don't like his work and would never buy his stuff but I don't begrudge the man his success or people their taste.

Okay, I'm done. If I keep responding (and yes, I know I started it), I'm pretty sure that it could take up a lot of my life

wottwin


quality posts: 2 Private Messages wottwin
Re: Secret Hitchhikers Society



Okay, that's a hoot.

flattopfrank


quality posts: 1 Private Messages flattopfrank

I see that I missed a lot today. (Quality Post!)

orabbit


quality posts: 30 Private Messages orabbit
flattopfrank wrote:I see that I missed a lot today. (Quality Post!)



Frankie, if you want a quality post, get on a sale page, like today's shirt, or today's woot, and say something funny/insightful/useful. Then hope that the mod gods bestow upon you the golden crown of quality. That crown is heavy, Flattop. Be careful what you wish for.

magicmikeymike


quality posts: 0 Private Messages magicmikeymike
Re: Secret Hitchhikers Society



This was a fun design to put together,check out the video! *warning* language/content

chachachino


quality posts: 0 Private Messages chachachino
Re: CODEX ARCANA



At last! Ancient rites and sacred magics revealed. Gain the power that has long been locked away behind the gates of the initiated. Summon Anubis, the judge of the ancients, or learn to perform alchemy. Fun for all ages!

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
randomwordz321 wrote:Tom, I didn't know you were an artist. I don't think I've ever seen any of your designs.

My main point, and I apologize for not making it all that well, or making it seem like it was only happening on this particular thread, is that it bothers me to see others (especially other artists) get petty (and no, Orabbit, I was not referring to you) because a design they don't like (or don't think is artsy enough?) is too popular.
Yes, there are horrible designs and completely copied designs and sometimes the rejectionator doesn't do its job that well... but (but!) everyone in here should accept that if they're going to enter new designs. Only Woot can change that.

Also, there's money potential to be had! Money!

It is ultimately Woot's job to fix the problems and to set and enforce the rules. If they don't enforce their own rules to our standards we cannot just take over for them by being mean.

Besides, art is a matter of personal taste. Other people might really love what you think is horrible (even complete strangers to the artist!) It's like assuming Thomas Kindade is so popular only because he's a hack and cheating. I don't like his work and would never buy his stuff but I don't begrudge the man his success or people their taste.

Okay, I'm done. If I keep responding (and yes, I know I started it), I'm pretty sure that it could take up a lot of my life



I'm not an artist, that part was a joke. I agree with you 100%, this is all Woot's fault for not rejecting the hacks, instead they let them hang around,move up in votes even into the fog.

deesbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deesbar
Re: Loyal Order of Cookie



Oh no! you're moving away from the fog, I want this shirt!

chachachino


quality posts: 0 Private Messages chachachino
Re: CODEX ARCANA



larger image of the artwork. feel free to comment. i welcome your feedback.

chachachino


quality posts: 0 Private Messages chachachino
Re: Redactors' Guild



Behind every strong secret society there stands a dull meticulous secret society that's subservient to the more prominent one. Enter the Redactors' guild. Way less glamorous but equally confidential.

Behold the Redactors' Guild Manifesto:

chachachino


quality posts: 0 Private Messages chachachino
Re: Redactors' Guild



--Also I realize there was another entry like this one. Very similar execution, not so similar idea. Both doomed to failure. * shrug *

6amcrisis


quality posts: 4 Private Messages 6amcrisis
lonelypond wrote:I've always thought American history would benefit from more fictional takes. I was thinking Black Adderish, but I can see this version working.



Black Adderish would be cool actually. Good call. Next time.

jeadly


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jeadly

Want so hard.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
Re: Imonthepotti


This appeals to my inner 10 year old.
Should be on....brown.

move along

kevlar51


quality posts: 44 Private Messages kevlar51
Re: Redactors' Guild



Why oh why did they have to use black highlighters?!

mchazin


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mchazin

I have to get this shirt!! Please tell me I can buy one.

cabinboy100


quality posts: 1 Private Messages cabinboy100
Re: CODEX ARCANA



GMV! Wondering if the "L" at the top ought to be the other way/hand? For proper "L"-ing from the non-shirt-wearer's POV.