WootBot


quality posts: 15 Private Messages WootBot

Staff

HEY, THE DERBY IS CHANGING! RIGHT NOW! HERE'S HOW:

We looked at how we do things, and we came to the conclusion that the old way of dealing with Honorable Mentions - posting them to the blog, then doing a Double-Take Derby, then having an Honorable Mentions plus sale - is pretty dumb. We want to follow up with great designs IMMEDIATELY, and that means putting 10-12 Honorable Mentions up for sale as soon as possible after a derby is over! For some perspective: In the past we've run around 200 Honorable Mention designs in a year. With this new setup, we'll add more than 500.

It'll work like this: if your design is chosen as an Honorable Mention, we'll put it up for sale on the MONDAY after the derby. Is it as sexy an offer as we give to the First, Second or Third place derby winners or the daily shirts artists that run during the week? No, but it gives you more chances to get more shirts out there in front of our customers. So we changed the derby contract (link here).

And that's what this is really all about for us: putting up more great designs by more artists. Different people have different sensibilities; the more we work to expand and diversify our design library, the more we strengthen and yep you guessed it diversify the Shirt.Woot community. 

Like always, though, we want to hear what you guys have to say. If you see glaring problems that we missed (or potential upsides we didn't mention here) feel free to post about them in the comments. We're going to try this out for a bit, but it is a work-in-progress, so we're open to tweaking things (and providing full disclosure) as we go.

Mavyn


quality posts: 23 Private Messages Mavyn

So basically, all HM's will be a weekly side sale?

My speech is not parsing. I am speaking in ellipsis.

thatrobert


quality posts: 29 Private Messages thatrobert

I think it's overall a good idea. Two questions:

1. I'm assuming the artist has the right to refuse an HM and not print if they don't want to settle for a D contract, correct?

2. What purpose does the 60 day hold have now? If I didn't get printed and I didn't get an HM, shouldn't I be free to take it to TeeFury right away?

skirochester


quality posts: 4 Private Messages skirochester

nice! I think it's great to give more artists chances to print that don't solely rely on vote totals. And it's nice to have it timely and right after the derby.

kevlar51


quality posts: 47 Private Messages kevlar51

Overall this will be good for sales of those designs--better to sell them when they're in the public's mind.

It's too bad the artist isn't given an opt-out period. I think I'm OK with it, but I know many others who won't be.

Since you were changing the contract, should you have changed the payment terms to reflect reality? Often you have $12 sales, and that still yields compensation. Also the contract still says quarterly payments, which isn't accurate.

tjost


quality posts: 25 Private Messages tjost
kevlar51 wrote:Overall this will be good for sales of those designs--better to sell them when they're in the public's mind.

It's too bad the artist isn't given an opt-out period. I think I'm OK with it, but I know many others who won't be.

Since you were changing the contract, should you have changed the payment terms to reflect reality? Often you have $12 sales, and that still yields compensation. Also the contract still says quarterly payments, which isn't accurate.



This will be good for artists who won't print much or at all normally, but those with more popular designs I'm not seeing it as a great thing. Look at things like my eat more meat shirt. It was an honorable mention and won it's HM derby. I got the 1000 on it plus much greater exposure and time in the top 20. It made me a decent amount of money. There is no way a D contract could come close to this. I've had several D's they never come close to selling anything like the featured item and then your also out the initial lump sum.

Basically now if I get an HM I want an opt out or I'm not submitting.

Also we do get paid for things at the $12 dollar level. We only get a buck though.

sonofafish


quality posts: 11 Private Messages sonofafish

Not to be impatient, but when will we know the HMs / special sale designs for the last 5 derbies? I'm ok with it not being today, just curious when we might find out.

taternuggets


quality posts: 23 Private Messages taternuggets

I am in favor of the proposed change. I think it will help newer artists stay engaged in the derby because they've always got a shot, even if they aren't hitting with the voters.

I do have one thing to ask. I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but if there could be a way for artists to track the sales of their shirts that print in this fashion. I'm not so much talking about just during the week long side sale period, but assuming these shirts will go to the catalog like other side sale shirts do, there is no way to know if you have sold any shirts. One of my back catalog shirts was a collab and I never know if I owe my co-artist any money. I'd hate to bother artistpayments every month for them to tell me "yeah, you sold one whole shirt, dirtbag."


Nothing follows.

marceepauff


quality posts: 18 Private Messages marceepauff

Yes, I think the contract should say $12 too. My most recent contract said $13 and it always makes me sad.

I, too, agree, artists should be allowed to opt-out. Even if half of the HM's opt out, a plus sale would still be a good side sale with 6 or 7 prints instead of 10 or 12 - and fewer shirts with the same theme would hopefully allow for more sales for the artists who choose to print.

ETA: agree re sales tracking. I still wish artists were able to get monthly invoices with number sold/pmt made. (Says the girl with only 4 prints in her catalog.)

Narfcake


quality posts: 293 Private Messages Narfcake
tjost wrote:... Also we do get paid for things at the $12 dollar level. We only get a buck though


I didn't even see that part in the T&C ...

(We better not be sinking to the Threadless level of suckage, BTW. No more $2k and compensation by sales, 20% of "net profit" with a 0.25 minimum. Yes, a quarter. )

Narfcake


quality posts: 293 Private Messages Narfcake
thatrobert wrote:... 2. What purpose does the 60 day hold have now? If I didn't get printed and I didn't get an HM, shouldn't I be free to take it to TeeFury right away?


A good question bears repeating.

sonofafish


quality posts: 11 Private Messages sonofafish

Oh, and this change is totally jake with me. I'd really like to earn even a single dollar to validate the time and energy I've spent on the derby.

While bigger artist may balk, they're still taking the biggest slice of the pie, and rightfully so. I just want a little taste.

no1


quality posts: 7 Private Messages no1
sonofafish wrote:Oh, and this change is totally jake with me. I'd really like to earn even a single dollar to validate the time and energy I've spent on the derby.



THE CREATION OF ART IS ITS OWN REWARD

taternuggets


quality posts: 23 Private Messages taternuggets

.


Nothing follows.

sonofafish


quality posts: 11 Private Messages sonofafish
no1 wrote:THE CREATION OF ART IS ITS OWN REWARD



"No Woot! Stop sending me checks! I made this for people to enjoy, not for profit! Take back this check and tear it up."

- said no woot artist ever

Kidding. But cards on the table, not making any profit for weeks/months/years makes you wonder if you're ever going to. I'm not trying to have woot put my kids through college, but a little beer money would be refreshing (see what I did there?).

skirochester


quality posts: 4 Private Messages skirochester
marceepauff wrote:

ETA: agree re sales tracking. I still wish artists were able to get monthly invoices with number sold/pmt made. (Says the girl with only 4 prints in her catalog.)



+1 for this suggestion.

Narfcake


quality posts: 293 Private Messages Narfcake
sonofafish wrote:"No Woot! Stop sending me checks! I made this for people to enjoy, not for profit! Take back this check and tear it up."

- said no woot artist ever


On more than one occasion, artists have had all their compensation directly donated to a charity - @bassanimation, @fishbiscuit5, and @kevlar51 to name a few.

(Sidenote: I hope GoodJoe will be back ...)

no1


quality posts: 7 Private Messages no1
sonofafish wrote:Kidding. But cards on the table, not making any profit for weeks/months/years makes you wonder if you're ever going to. I'm not trying to have woot put my kids through college, but a little beer money would be refreshing (see what I did there?).



it'll come. be patient.

fishbiscuit5


quality posts: 39 Private Messages fishbiscuit5
marceepauff wrote:
ETA: agree re sales tracking. I still wish artists were able to get monthly invoices with number sold/pmt made. (Says the girl with only 4 prints in her catalog.)



Accounting will send you a monthly breakdown of your sales if you email them. I always know when I owe kevlar51 a dollar! :P











sonofafish


quality posts: 11 Private Messages sonofafish
Narfcake wrote:On more than one occasion, artists have had all their compensation directly donated to a charity - @bassanimation, @fishbiscuit5, and @kevlar51 to name a few.

(Sidenote: I hope GoodJoe will be back ...)



well, then i revise my joke to "said very few woot artists". It's not as funny.

Are we coming to a consensus then that woot shouldn't offer any compensation at all? I'm game! XD

Seriously tho, have no problem with committing to that myself. If there is a sidesale and I am in it, I'll give all the proceeds to International Rescue Committee. Full disclosure, I already give as heavily as I can to them.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

So yeah, that's the big change, guys. Every Monday we'll be running the Honorable Mention sale featuring 10-12 new designs. A design could sell 50, or it could sell 500. Overall we think we're going to get a lot more designs printed, a lot more people paid, and a big improvement in new selection for our customers. Plus less confusion for new artists on the convoluted HM, Double-take, Mentions of Honor system. We really like the simplicity of this format and the fact that we'll be printing a lot more of your designs.

Regarding payment, our accounting team defaults to $2 per item sold even when the design is at $12. For instance we're currently selling tees for $12 in Plus sales and artists are getting $2 for those.

The language is in there to cover when we drop to a point where we aren't making enough to cover that. We typically won't call that out to accounting until we hit $10 or lower. We'll then often go to $1, or occasionally one-time flat payments.

Regarding an "opt-out", currently we don't have one. By submitting to the derby you're saying that you're OK that your design may print as 1st-3rd or as an honorable mention. This is something we can look at, but for now that's how the derby will work. Of course we can't physically make you send us your artwork, so I guess there's that "unofficial" opt-out...

Finally, we're testing this out. Nothing is set in stone and we'll likely be making adjustments as the changes play out and we see what the response is. I'm really excited about seeing another 10-12 designs every week. The cost of that is the loss of the double-take winners, but we also gain 3-4 more derbies a year for you to participate in and win the daily prize.

fishbiscuit5


quality posts: 39 Private Messages fishbiscuit5
tjost wrote:This will be good for artists who won't print much or at all normally, but those with more popular designs I'm not seeing it as a great thing. Look at things like my eat more meat shirt. It was an honorable mention and won it's HM derby. I got the 1000 on it plus much greater exposure and time in the top 20. It made me a decent amount of money. There is no way a D contract could come close to this. I've had several D's they never come close to selling anything like the featured item and then your also out the initial lump sum.

Basically now if I get an HM I want an opt out or I'm not submitting.

Also we do get paid for things at the $12 dollar level. We only get a buck though.



I like the idea of more/new artists getting a shot at printing each week. It's easy to get discouraged with the derby. Giving more artists a chance to build their catalog is a positive. I also think an opt out is reasonable, without one we may see less submissions. Not sure how an opt out would impact the overall setup for the new HM procedure.

(I would also like to know about the 60 day hold and why it's necessary after the HMs go up.)










tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

fishbiscuit5 wrote:

(I would also like to know about the 60 day hold and why it's necessary after the HMs go up.)



I brought this up and it wasn't something they were comfortable dropping at the time. I'll keep poking on that because I personally would like you to be able to go elsewhere ASAP.

no1


quality posts: 7 Private Messages no1
fishbiscuit5 wrote:Not sure how an opt out would impact the overall setup for the new HM procedure.



since the hm sales happen almost rite away, there isn't much time for people to find out they've been hmed before they have to go for sale on monday. i'd guess for an opt-out to work, there would have to be an option to opt out of hms at time of submission.

thatrobert


quality posts: 29 Private Messages thatrobert
no1 wrote:since the hm sales happen almost rite away, people aren't going to know they've been hmed until they see their shirt for sale on monday. i'd guess for an opt-out to work, there would have to be an option to opt out of hms at time of submission.



Like Travis said you could conveniently "lose the mail" where Woot asks for the print-ready artwork if you don't want to take the lower $$$. For that reason you'd know ahead of time if you're going to print or not.

fishbiscuit5


quality posts: 39 Private Messages fishbiscuit5
no1 wrote:since the hm sales happen almost rite away, there isn't much time for people to find out they've been hmed before they have to go for sale on monday. i'd guess for an opt-out to work, there would have to be an option to opt out of hms at time of submission.



Yup, I can see that getting kind of messy and hard to track. Like Travis said, no print file, no print. Personally, I'm ok with the HM side sale option. I've had derby entries go on to print at other sites. Some do well, some don't, you just never know. I don't mind adding to my woot catalog.










fishbiscuit5


quality posts: 39 Private Messages fishbiscuit5
thatrobert wrote:Like Travis said you could conveniently "lose the mail" where Woot asks for the print-ready artwork if you don't want to take the lower $$$. For that reason you'd know ahead of time if you're going to print or not.



Everybody keeps replying while I'm typing! I look like a copycat! :D










no1


quality posts: 7 Private Messages no1
thatrobert wrote:Like Travis said you could conveniently "lose the mail" where Woot asks for the print-ready artwork if you don't want to take the lower $$$. For that reason you'd know ahead of time if you're going to print or not.



i thought at one time they were asking every1 to send in print readies early, not just the top three. request for print ready could mean you're being considered for an hm, not that you're guaranteed to print.

oakenspirit


quality posts: 93 Private Messages oakenspirit

This was actually what I suggested in the artist survey we got a week or so ago, though I am certain they already had it lined up-

My one extra caveat, was to simply have a checkbox on the derby submission page that said I AGREE TO HAVE MY ENTRY ELIGIBLE FOR THE HM SIDE SALE- You could check it or not when you submit-

;)

I am pretty excited about this prospect, truthfully, as I have had pretty limited success anywhere but woot and really just like woot better in general- Having all my shirts together is a plus for me.

YAY!


Narfcake


quality posts: 293 Private Messages Narfcake
no1 wrote:i thought at one time they were asking every1 to send in print readies early, not just the top three. request for print ready could mean you're being considered for an hm, not that you're guaranteed to print.


I think that "policy" came about after that time Ramy didn't send his in; it was in the top 3.

ste7enl


quality posts: 15 Private Messages ste7enl
tgentry wrote:So yeah, that's the big change, guys. Every Monday we'll be running the Honorable Mention sale featuring 10-12 new designs. A design could sell 50, or it could sell 500. Overall we think we're going to get a lot more designs printed, a lot more people paid, and a big improvement in new selection for our customers. Plus less confusion for new artists on the convoluted HM, Double-take, Mentions of Honor system. We really like the simplicity of this format and the fact that we'll be printing a lot more of your designs.

Regarding payment, our accounting team defaults to $2 per item sold even when the design is at $12. For instance we're currently selling tees for $12 in Plus sales and artists are getting $2 for those.

The language is in there to cover when we drop to a point where we aren't making enough to cover that. We typically won't call that out to accounting until we hit $10 or lower. We'll then often go to $1, or occasionally one-time flat payments.

Regarding an "opt-out", currently we don't have one. By submitting to the derby you're saying that you're OK that your design may print as 1st-3rd or as an honorable mention. This is something we can look at, but for now that's how the derby will work. Of course we can't physically make you send us your artwork, so I guess there's that "unofficial" opt-out...

Finally, we're testing this out. Nothing is set in stone and we'll likely be making adjustments as the changes play out and we see what the response is. I'm really excited about seeing another 10-12 designs every week. The cost of that is the loss of the double-take winners, but we also gain 3-4 more derbies a year for you to participate in and win the daily prize.



Just not a fan of this new system at all. Side sales never make much money for me, and the more designs you print, the less each design is going to be worth. It is very hard to standout to customers in a side sale, if the sale even gets noticed in the first place.

For some people, just getting their design up for sale might be a great thing, but I have regularly had more success taking my near misses elsewhere, or putting them up in my own shops where exclusivity isn't an issue. If I am not getting paid a decent upfront fee I really have no interest in giving up exclusive rights to my work. I'll probably stick to daily submissions going forward.

I personally think if you want to go with a royalty only system for any designs it should be a timed exclusive or non-exclusive.

skirochester


quality posts: 4 Private Messages skirochester

Any word on the HMs (and missing HMs) after the last DTD? Should we expect a huge HM side sale? 1 last DTD? Or are those just faint memories of woot past?

(I was kinda hoping Father Son Picnic & Yoda Pants would have another shot)

taternuggets


quality posts: 23 Private Messages taternuggets
fishbiscuit5 wrote:Accounting will send you a monthly breakdown of your sales if you email them. I always know when I owe kevlar51 a dollar! :P



Yeah, I get that... and if I had 40 shirts in the woot catalog, I wouldn't feel guilty asking. As it is now, I do feel guilty asking so I don't bother.


Nothing follows.

no1


quality posts: 7 Private Messages no1
taternuggets wrote:Yeah, I get that... and if I had 40 shirts in the woot catalog, I wouldn't feel guilty asking. As it is now, I do feel guilty asking so I don't bother.



on the plus side, you get to keep the dollar!

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit

Do we still get the free shirt coupon? Presumably, I would use it to get a copy of my design.

sonofafish


quality posts: 11 Private Messages sonofafish
no1 wrote:on the plus side, you get to keep the dollar!



agingdragqueen


quality posts: 135 Private Messages agingdragqueen

Staff

orabbit wrote:Do we still get the free shirt coupon? Presumably, I would use it to get a copy of my design.



Yes indeed, coupons are still happening.

Also I'm asking accounting peeps if they can automate some sort of report, but tgentry thinks right now at least that if you want itemized stuff, make sure to email artistpayments@woot.com, the more they're annoyed, the more leverage we'll have.

tessderpervilles


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tessderpervilles
skirochester wrote:Any word on the HMs (and missing HMs) after the last DTD? Should we expect a huge HM side sale? 1 last DTD? Or are those just faint memories of woot past?

(I was kinda hoping Father Son Picnic & Yoda Pants would have another shot)

Whereas we the undersigned heretofore did not undersign nor agree to the newly revised and binding terms and conditions, the expectations presented above in the above quoted passage above, as regards a huge side sale, would require communications to the honorees to request an opt-in of the aforementioned revised terms and conditions insofar as new contracts would necessitate undersignage.
< /pseuodlawyer>

littleclyde


quality posts: 16 Private Messages littleclyde

Sigh, the old system was rather good to me. Not a fan of the new one, but I guess we'll see how it shakes out. A problem I see is that the new HM prints have no chance of getting into the top 20. I had two shirts print in the last double-take, and they managed to hang in the top 20 for 4-5 weeks, making some nice extra money on top of the lump sum. It's hard to justify giving up perpetual rights for the amount you make from what is essentially a side sale. I think a non-exclusive contract would be a lot fairer in this case. Woot used to do C contracts that gave you rights back after a year - wouldn't that be more appropriate here? Also think an official opt-out should be an option.

agingdragqueen


quality posts: 135 Private Messages agingdragqueen

Staff

kevlar51 wrote:Since you were changing the contract, should you have changed the payment terms to reflect reality? Often you have $12 sales, and that still yields compensation. Also the contract still says quarterly payments, which isn't accurate.



I talked more to Joel about this (and I think he's going to be clarifying some points later) but we have quarterly & >$13 = $2 commission in the contract as a sort of under-promise, over-deliver scenario. If you guys have gotten itemized statements, you should be seeing that we do pay $2 on $12 shirts.

It's tough, I know, the contract is in a way misleading, you kinda just have to trust that we will give full commission to artists as we can- we're just covering our butts on future sales that maybe have too-small a margin. My understanding is that if we do systematically change the way we pay artists, we'll make an effort to communicate that to artists.