Derby #270: Propaganda...FOR SCIENCE!
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Join the evolution

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ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb

paleodon


quality posts: 0 Private Messages paleodon
Re: Join the evolution


Kinda torn here. Good drawing and propaganda design (though using an outdated picture as representation of evolution) but it doesn't really address the other half of the theme, because part of the reason science IS awesome is that it doesn't require belief. Could reference supporting with evidence instead. As a grad student, still hoping to see a print with this cool idea!

alohawoot1


quality posts: 0 Private Messages alohawoot1
paleodon wrote:Kinda torn here. Good drawing and propaganda design (though using an outdated picture as representation of evolution) but it doesn't really address the other half of the theme, because part of the reason science IS awesome is that it doesn't require belief. Could reference supporting with evidence instead. As a grad student, still hoping to see a print with this cool idea!


I agree.

You don't have to believe it: change happens!

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial
paleodon wrote:Kinda torn here. Good drawing and propaganda design (though using an outdated picture as representation of evolution) but it doesn't really address the other half of the theme, because part of the reason science IS awesome is that it doesn't require belief. Could reference supporting with evidence instead. As a grad student, still hoping to see a print with this cool idea!

IMHO, the reference to how science is amazing is more implicit than explicit, but I've always found evolution to be the epitome of how amazing science is: serendipity, combined with deductive reasoning and close examination of evidence, resulted in an unexpected discovery that changed the way many look at the very meaning of life. That's pretty cool!

Aside from Ramy's shirt, I disagree (in a nuanced way) that science doesn't require belief. For example, I've seen only a fraction of the fossil record with my own eyes, but I believe that the rest exists. I've not seen the evidence for the Higgs boson, but I believe that it exists. I've definitely not seen the Krebs cycle in action with my own eyes. If someone walks into my office and is capable of picture matching and object identification, but produces agrammatical speech, I might diagnose damage to Broca's area because I believe that the posterior inferior frontal gyrus contains a portion of brain critical for expressive language. (To be fair, someone else can verify this based on MRI, but even then, I'm reliant on a belief in imaging and the science behind neuroradiology, because I definitely can't read MRIs!)

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
paleodon wrote:Kinda torn here. Good drawing and propaganda design (though using an outdated picture as representation of evolution) but it doesn't really address the other half of the theme, because part of the reason science IS awesome is that it doesn't require belief. Could reference supporting with evidence instead. As a grad student, still hoping to see a print with this cool idea!


To me, that's the crux of the joke with this entry. First of all, just as a semantic point, belief doesn't necessarily imply blind faith. It just means that you trust in the truth of something, which can be accomplished by reviewing convincing evidence.

But on to more interesting thoughts: my idea in creating this design is that there is so much that people are asked to believe WITHOUT evidence, and that's what sets science apart. Ultimately, there have been discoveries that were later refuted, but the very basic principles of scientific investigation involve seeing (in the most general sense) before believing. To me, that really falls in stark opposition to the way that propaganda works, which is preying on people's emotions rather than their sensibilities. I thought this design highlighted that by taking a popularized type of slogan and putting it in a context that gives it entirely different meaning that really highlights what is so great about science.

(And for the record, there are still plenty of people who don't believe in evolution)

Reclaimer456


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Reclaimer456
Re: Join the evolution

I fully expect someone to play the racism card on this entry.

roysterer


quality posts: 5 Private Messages roysterer
Re: Join the evolution


I really like the idea, but I do not like the art. It looks very much like the figure on the left is a chimp, and I have no idea what the middle one is supposed to be.

AntarcticanMafia


quality posts: 0 Private Messages AntarcticanMafia
Re: Join the evolution


/winning

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
Re: Join the evolution


This looks like plagiarism to me

deboraho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deboraho
tomspc wrote:This looks like plagiarism to me


Jesus...... I watch my guy spend hours drawing and questioning every aspect of his artwork.... this is something else.....

flemtone


quality posts: 7 Private Messages flemtone
tomspc wrote:This looks like plagiarism to me


oops....after toggling between the images for a few minutes, I concur. These are just too close for comfort, at least imho.

orabbit


quality posts: 31 Private Messages orabbit
Re: Join the evolution


I just want to say that this plagiarism witch hunt is ridiculous. The evolution sequence is nearly as ubiquitous as the smiley face. This was clearly drawn from scratch to evoke a well known and oft-used image.

Last week's debacle was a different matter. You can smell art theft a mile away, and this is not that. As Louis Armstrong said, “If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.”

ETA - I was enjoying the discussion this was provoking, and I was glad to hear Ramy's well worded thoughts on belief. Now the whole thread has "devolved" into a morass of negative energy.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
orabbit wrote:I just want to say that this plagiarism witch hunt is ridiculous. The evolution sequence is nearly as ubiquitous as the smiley face. This was clearly drawn from scratch to evoke a well known and oft-used image.

Last week's debacle was a different matter. You can smell art theft a mile away, and this is not that. As Louis Armstrong said, “If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.”

ETA - I was enjoying the discussion this was provoking, and I was glad to hear Ramy's well worded thoughts on belief. Now the whole thread has "devolved" into a morass of negative energy.


I have seen charts like this since elementary school however they are not all identical. It is not the smiley face. This is the first chart that appears when you google it. Ramyb could have changed it up but even the arms, legs, the hair line, everything is identical to this one picture. Call it what you want, whether it's plagiarism or not it's definitely lazy. Come on be original. If Ramyb is such a great artist as everyone in here claims, he/she would not be taking these types of short cuts.

deboraho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deboraho
orabbit wrote:I just want to say that this plagiarism witch hunt is ridiculous. The evolution sequence is nearly as ubiquitous as the smiley face. This was clearly drawn from scratch to evoke a well known and oft-used image.

Last week's debacle was a different matter. You can smell art theft a mile away, and this is not that. As Louis Armstrong said, “If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.”

ETA - I was enjoying the discussion this was provoking, and I was glad to hear Ramy's well worded thoughts on belief. Now the whole thread has "devolved" into a morass of negative energy.


I am really confused.... seriously, what determines theft vs not, if it is someone else's art work ?

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
orabbit wrote:I just want to say that this plagiarism witch hunt is ridiculous. The evolution sequence is nearly as ubiquitous as the smiley face. This was clearly drawn from scratch to evoke a well known and oft-used image.

Last week's debacle was a different matter. You can smell art theft a mile away, and this is not that. As Louis Armstrong said, “If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.”

ETA - I was enjoying the discussion this was provoking, and I was glad to hear Ramy's well worded thoughts on belief. Now the whole thread has "devolved" into a morass of negative energy.


"Art plagiarism is taking the basic composition of a piece of art and using that as basis to make your own image. You may not have a print-out of the "reference work" directly beneath your paper, and you may even be changing which character(s) are portrayed, but that still doesn't change the fact that the composition of a piece of art is the intellectual property of the original owner. You're still stealing artwork if you keep the same composition and specific details/arrangement, even *if* you changed which characters are portrayed and even *if* you drew the lines without tracing them. The specific combination of elements that together combine to form the overall composition of a work is the intellectual property of the original creator.

But, don't be fooled--just like it's art theft to combine multiple images into one image, it's art plagiarism to combine multiple "references" into a single piece. Identically copying any major element of another person's work is still art theft."

http://datenshikurai.deviantart.com/journal/What-Is-Art-Plagiarism-READ-THIS-234951828

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
deboraho wrote:I am really confused.... seriously, what determines theft vs not, if it is someone else's art work ?


Last week they crucified Lyoncc for using clip art. He claimed he drew it using the picture as a guide but Off My Gangplank! they said they could tell that he didn't draw it, through the flames and all. But apparently they can tell that Ramyb drew his. It's ridiculous. I guess it depends on the artist whether or not it's plagiarism.

Based on that, I can come into the derby and take someone elses idea as long as I "draw" it, I can submit it as my own.

mjc613


quality posts: 48 Private Messages mjc613
orabbit wrote:I just want to say that this plagiarism witch hunt is ridiculous. The evolution sequence is nearly as ubiquitous as the smiley face. This was clearly drawn from scratch to evoke a well known and oft-used image.
.


I found another example online where the postures and arm placements are the same.
http://scienceblogs.com/observations/2010/11/01/evolution-a-game-of-chance/

Woot in the past has allowed work that is inspired by another piece of work, and there are lots of drawings showing the stages of evolution. Since the actual people aren't copied, just the outlines, woot will probably overlook it. Is it totally ethical? In my opinion no, but ramy knows just how far to push the boundaries, and his work is popular.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
Re: Join the evolution


I'm not seeing the parody, actually it's offensive if you really look at it. "Change we can believe in" is Obama's slogan so are you referring to Obama as a monkey?

deboraho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deboraho
tomspc wrote:I'm not seeing the parody, actually it's offensive if you really look at it. "Change we can believe in" is Obama's slogan so are you referring to Obama as a monkey?


Hollyyyy Crap !

dawnao


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dawnao
Re: Join the evolution


Help me understand....



AND



= WINNING DESIGN???

deboraho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deboraho
mjc613 wrote:I found another example online where the postures and arm placements are the same.
http://scienceblogs.com/observations/2010/11/01/evolution-a-game-of-chance/

Woot in the past has allowed work that is inspired by another piece of work, and there are lots of drawings showing the stages of evolution. Since the actual people aren't copied, just the outlines, woot will probably overlook it. Is it totally ethical? In my opinion no, but ramy knows just how far to push the boundaries, and his work is popular.


I am not sure the use of "His" was appropriate here....Not from what I have seen today.

runnerfrog13


quality posts: 10 Private Messages runnerfrog13
tomspc wrote:Last week they crucified Lyoncc for using clip art. He claimed he drew it using the picture as a guide but Off My Gangplank! they said they could tell that he didn't draw it, through the flames and all. But apparently they can tell that Ramyb drew his. It's ridiculous. I guess it depends on the artist whether or not it's plagiarism.

Ironically, it's almost like the better you are at using references to get poses/outlines/etc correct, or the more realistic you can draw, the more likely you are to be called out for "copying."

aerc712


quality posts: 4 Private Messages aerc712
orabbit wrote:I just want to say that this plagiarism witch hunt is ridiculous. The evolution sequence is nearly as ubiquitous as the smiley face. This was clearly drawn from scratch to evoke a well known and oft-used image.

Last week's debacle was a different matter. You can smell art theft a mile away, and this is not that. As Louis Armstrong said, “If you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know.”

ETA - I was enjoying the discussion this was provoking, and I was glad to hear Ramy's well worded thoughts on belief. Now the whole thread has "devolved" into a morass of negative energy.


amen

It feels like, in my opinion, that part of the issue with the critiques is plagiarism v parody. It's one thing to steal someone else's hard work. It's another to take an existing concept, character, design and change things up a bit and put your own spin on it.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
aerc712 wrote:amen

It feels like, in my opinion, that part of the issue with the critiques is plagiarism v parody. It's one thing to steal someone else's hard work. It's another to take an existing concept, character, design and change things up a bit and put your own spin on it.


What was changed?? It is clearly the Evolution chart along with Obama's campaign poster. The poster wasn't changed at all and the evolution chart was silhouetted. It's not a parody, actually it's quite offensive. Rules say "Keep it Classy"...uh not classy

EDIT: Explain how last week he took an flaming eyeball and added a window washer, which is funny. Why is that not a parody?????? He was called a thief and beat up. Ramyb does the exact same thing (except it's not funny) and he's a genius?

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
tomspc wrote:What was changed?? It is clearly the Evolution chart along with Obama's campaign poster. The poster wasn't changed at all and the evolution chart was silhouetted. It's not a parody, actually it's quite offensive. Rules say "Keep it Classy"...uh not classy

EDIT: Explain how last week he took an flaming eyeball and added a window washer, which is funny. Why is that not a parody?????? He was called a thief and beat up. Ramyb does the exact same thing (except it's not funny) and he's a genius?


I am a little surprised that this entry has caused so much controversy, and I've come to learn that participating in such discussions usually leads to a much worse response, but I can't help but jump in here anyway.

First of all, tracing is not the same as referencing by any stretch of the imagination. If you look up "evolution" on google images, you will find thousands of nearly identical images, as this representation has become absolutely the standard in terms of depicting evolution. In creating this image, I didn't even look at one specific image, I just freehanded it with the google images section open to pick three stages that could represent the idea. And for the record, you can try as hard as you want to overlay the images (or this with any other evolution image for that matter), and you will not be able to because I drew it entirely from scratch. There is nothing even remotely questionable about that.

Secondly, the joke here is not that Obama is a monkey. The joke is that evolution is change. It is taking the word change, and applying a different meaning of it to the poster. This shirt is not telling the world that you believe in Obama's message and that he is a monkey. It is telling the world that you believe in evolution, and that in a general sense you are a person who believes things based on evidence. That is all.

I thought this idea fit the theme, had an easy to understand message, and used a simple (and relatable) graphic to get the point across. There really isn't much ambiguity here, and if you want to intentionally distort the message to serve your purpose, that is your prerogative.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
ramyb wrote:Secondly, the joke here is not that Obama is a monkey. The joke is that evolution is change. It is taking the word change, and applying a different meaning of it to the poster. This shirt is not telling the world that you believe in Obama's message and that he is a monkey. It is telling the world that you believe in evolution, and that in a general sense you are a person who believes things based on evidence. That is all.

I thought this idea fit the theme, had an easy to understand message, and used a simple (and relatable) graphic to get the point across. There really isn't much ambiguity here, and if you want to intentionally distort the message to serve your purpose, that is your prerogative.


I believe it is you who is trying to stretch this "simple and relatable" idea into something else. I live in the south, specifically Atlanta, and if I wore that shirt out in public, I guarantee it would be taken offensively. Not sure where you live but feel free to wear that shirt through the south and see if people get your simple idea because I'm sure they'll get the relatable part.

deboraho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deboraho
tomspc wrote:What was changed?? It is clearly the Evolution chart along with Obama's campaign poster. The poster wasn't changed at all and the evolution chart was silhouetted. It's not a parody, actually it's quite offensive. Rules say "Keep it Classy"...uh not classy

EDIT: Explain how last week he took an flaming eyeball and added a window washer, which is funny. Why is that not a parody?????? He was called a thief and beat up. Ramyb does the exact same thing (except it's not funny) and he's a genius?



My thoughts also.

dawnao


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dawnao
ramyb wrote:I am a little surprised that this entry has caused so much controversy, and I've come to learn that participating in such discussions usually leads to a much worse response, but I can't help but jump in here anyway.

First of all, tracing is not the same as referencing by any stretch of the imagination. If you look up "evolution" on google images, you will find thousands of nearly identical images, as this representation has become absolutely the standard in terms of depicting evolution. In creating this image, I didn't even look at one specific image, I just freehanded it with the google images section open to pick three stages that could represent the idea. And for the record, you can try as hard as you want to overlay the images (or this with any other evolution image for that matter), and you will not be able to because I drew it entirely from scratch. There is nothing even remotely questionable about that.

Secondly, the joke here is not that Obama is a monkey. The joke is that evolution is change. It is taking the word change, and applying a different meaning of it to the poster. This shirt is not telling the world that you believe in Obama's message and that he is a monkey. It is telling the world that you believe in evolution, and that in a general sense you are a person who believes things based on evidence. That is all.

I thought this idea fit the theme, had an easy to understand message, and used a simple (and relatable) graphic to get the point across. There really isn't much ambiguity here, and if you want to intentionally distort the message to serve your purpose, that is your prerogative.



I'm not going to get into parody vs plagiarism or the "rules" because to be honest there seems to be a double standard in here. There's been a hint over time but the last 2 weeks is very telling. Enough said on that subject.

I have to agree that this could be offensive. Once I saw the evolution pic and the Obama pic together, it's pretty damning.

growgreen


quality posts: 0 Private Messages growgreen
dawnao wrote:Help me understand....



AND



= WINNING DESIGN???


multiply that equation by one RAMYB...

Reclaimer456


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Reclaimer456
Re: Join the evolution

Reclaimer456 wrote:I fully expect someone to play the racism card on this entry.

tomspc wrote:I'm not seeing the parody, actually it's offensive if you really look at it. "Change we can believe in" is Obama's slogan so are you referring to Obama as a monkey?


Called that.

deesbar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deesbar
ramyb wrote:
First of all, tracing is not the same as referencing by any stretch of the imagination. If you look up "evolution" on google images, you will find thousands of nearly identical images, as this representation has become absolutely the standard in terms of depicting evolution. In creating this image, I didn't even look at one specific image, I just freehanded it with the google images section open to pick three stages that could represent the idea. And for the record, you can try as hard as you want to overlay the images (or this with any other evolution image for that matter), and you will not be able to because I drew it entirely from scratch. There is nothing even remotely questionable about that.


I took your challenge and over layed your "drawing" with the original pics. Freehand huh?

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
tomspc wrote:Shocking!

Personally I don't care if it's not original artwork but I do care when some are called out on it and beat up over it while others are praised. It does lend some credibility to the whole clique conspiracy theory, that I've been told on more than one occasion, doesn't exist.

Um, looking back at this thread, there is one positive comment and a couple indifferent. The rest is outrage. Hardly "praise". Unless if by "praise" you mean that it is in the fog. In that case, recall that LyonsCC's was also in the fog at the time.

move along

phoenixgirrl


quality posts: 1 Private Messages phoenixgirrl
Re: Join the evolution


In addition to this being offensive, it's also a pop culture riff. How is this not rejected?

deboraho


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deboraho
phoenixgirrl wrote:In addition to this being offensive, it's also a pop culture riff. How is this not rejected?


I believe RAMYB must be a WOOT employee.... only thing that makes SENSE !

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
phoenixgirrl wrote:In addition to this being offensive, it's also a pop culture riff. How is this not rejected?


Good question! I've been asking but all I get is "crickets"

nestersoup


quality posts: 0 Private Messages nestersoup
Re: Join the evolution


From Last weeks fight, a BootsBoots Quote that still seems applicable.

BootsBoots wrote:Anyway... I don't think it really matters if you drew the image just by looking at a reference or not. Whether you're live tracing, sketching over, or drawing something completely freehand, if it ends up looking exactly like your reference image, then you've copied someone else's work. It's not yours to use.

samanthastroud


quality posts: 0 Private Messages samanthastroud
ramyb wrote:I am a little surprised that this entry has caused so much controversy, and I've come to learn that participating in such discussions usually leads to a much worse response, but I can't help but jump in here anyway.

First of all, tracing is not the same as referencing by any stretch of the imagination. If you look up "evolution" on google images, you will find thousands of nearly identical images, as this representation has become absolutely the standard in terms of depicting evolution. In creating this image, I didn't even look at one specific image, I just freehanded it with the google images section open to pick three stages that could represent the idea. And for the record, you can try as hard as you want to overlay the images (or this with any other evolution image for that matter), and you will not be able to because I drew it entirely from scratch. There is nothing even remotely questionable about that.

Secondly, the joke here is not that Obama is a monkey. The joke is that evolution is change. It is taking the word change, and applying a different meaning of it to the poster. This shirt is not telling the world that you believe in Obama's message and that he is a monkey. It is telling the world that you believe in evolution, and that in a general sense you are a person who believes things based on evidence. That is all.

I thought this idea fit the theme, had an easy to understand message, and used a simple (and relatable) graphic to get the point across. There really isn't much ambiguity here, and if you want to intentionally distort the message to serve your purpose, that is your prerogative.

This must be pretty frustrating as an artist who just took a very popular image (which we see all the time and it's always identical)and put a political spin on it (propoganda?)and everyone blows it out of proportion. I am starting to think if anyone other than Ramby eneterd this design it wouldn't have been taken so badly. That being said if people are taking it to be a racial issue then intensions aside there is a problem. I for one thought that this was pretty clever at first glance and wouldn't have made the racial connection, but that's just me

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
samanthastroud wrote:This must be pretty frustrating as an artist who just took a very popular image (which we see all the time and it's always identical)and put a political spin on it (propoganda?)and everyone blows it out of proportion. I am starting to think if anyone other than Ramby eneterd this design it wouldn't have been taken so badly. That being said if people are taking it to be a racial issue then intensions aside there is a problem. I for one thought that this was pretty clever at first glance and wouldn't have made the racial connection, but that's just me


First, anyone who just steals others work is not an artist. I have photoshop. I can't even draw a circle. I guess that makes me an artist.
Second, I don't give a rats-you-know-what if it's Ramyb or anyone else.
Third, it would definitely be considered racist where I come from.
Fourth, there's nothing clever about taking 2 pieces of art and merging them together. It took me all of about 10 mins to duplicate this in photoshop.
Fifth, the Obama slogan/sign is POP-CULTURE

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
nestersoup wrote:BootsBoots wrote:
Anyway... I don't think it really matters if you drew the image just by looking at a reference or not. Whether you're live tracing, sketching over, or drawing something completely freehand, if it ends up looking exactly like your reference image, then you've copied someone else's work. It's not yours to use.


AGREE

phoenixgirrl


quality posts: 1 Private Messages phoenixgirrl
tomspc wrote:First, anyone who just steals others work is not an artist. I have photoshop. I can't even draw a circle. I guess that makes me an artist.
Second, I don't give a rats-you-know-what if it's Ramyb or anyone else.
Third, it would definitely be considered racist where I come from.
Fourth, there's nothing clever about taking 2 pieces of art and merging them together. It took me all of about 10 mins to duplicate this in photoshop.
Fifth, the Obama slogan/sign is POP-CULTURE


Yes. This.

I live in the Northeast, in an area with few minorities, and it would also be viewed as racist here. I would be embarrassed to be seen in it.

tarheel239


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tarheel239
tomspc wrote:AGREE


As a graphic design student, I just have to throw my two cents in here. You could spend YEARS arguing this. Designers often do. I've sat through HOURS of lectures about how to differentiate between paying homage to good design and plagiarism. Unfortunately, nobody has an answer. I think arguing that the evolution sequence is the IP of one entity is rediculous. Even if they did use live trace of an existing image, the point is that this image is now almost iconic in our society. Christians might as well sue the people that make the Darwin fish things for stealing the fish idea.
The Obama part of it, at least to me, has more grounds for questioning. First off it is a pop culture deal, but, it *technically* is the IP of Obama/his campaign.

All that aside- I think the design is it's own thing entirely- combining two unlike elements to create a cohesive design, and a clever statement. And I like the design.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
Re: Join the evolution


IMO, this shirt is plagiarized. The Obama slogan and the image are too close for comfort.

HOWEVER, if you are making some comparison between Obama and monkeys, that's all you. I am so god d*amn sick of this political correct BS. This is a joke, playing off a political slogan and evolution. And the joke would still be funny if it were a white guy who had the "change" slogan. Screw your political correctness. But screw Ramy for more rule-pushing crap.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
kylemittskus wrote:IMO, this shirt is plagiarized. The Obama slogan and the image are too close for comfort.

HOWEVER, if you are making some comparison between Obama and monkeys, that's all you. I am so god d*amn sick of this political correct BS. This is a joke, playing off a political slogan and evolution. And the joke would still be funny if it were a white guy who had the "change" slogan. Screw your political correctness. But screw Ramy for more rule-pushing crap.


I understand what your saying about the PCness of it all and I agree people are overly sensitive these days BUT this is an election year where Obama and that campaign slogan are everywhere. The timing is bad for this design. Keep in mind that there is a long history in this country of white people comparing black people to apes and monkeys. So putting apes on Obama's campaign slogan can and will be misunderstood by many people. This is why it is highly offensive. No one will look at this design as evolution humor. I doubt Ramyb meant it that way however I would not risk offending people by wearing that shirt.

Reclaimer456


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Reclaimer456
tomspc wrote:I understand what your saying about the PCness of it all and I agree people are overly sensitive these days BUT this is an election year where Obama and that campaign slogan are everywhere. The timing is bad for this design. Keep in mind that there is a long history in this country of white people comparing black people to apes and monkeys. So putting apes on Obama's campaign slogan can and will be misunderstood by many people. This is why it is highly offensive. No one will look at this design as evolution humor. I doubt Ramyb meant it that way however I would not risk offending people by wearing that shirt.

People misunderstanding something does not make it offensive.

Other than using a campaign slogan, there is absolutely nothing about the shirt which implies that Obama is a monkey. (note that the outlined person is both white in the original image and not anything resembling a caricature of Obama)

That being said, the utter lack of creativity on this image would make it a shame if it prints. At best, Ramyb is too liberally sampling from other works (can't even be bothered to change the font on the slogan?), and at worst, he is flat out plagiarizing other works.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
Reclaimer456 wrote:People misunderstanding something does not make it offensive.

Other than using a campaign slogan, there is absolutely nothing about the shirt which implies that Obama is a monkey. (note that the outlined person is both white in the original image and not anything resembling a caricature of Obama)

That being said, the utter lack of creativity on this image would make it a shame if it prints. At best, Ramyb is too liberally sampling from other works (can't even be bothered to change the font on the slogan?), and at worst, he is flat out plagiarizing other works.


I understand where you're coming from. I believe the timing is off on this hacked design. I would not want to wear a shirt that people might misunderstand and while I'm trying to explain the woot derby, WWII propaganda and evolution, I'm getting my arse kicked.

jspickler


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jspickler

My 0.02...

If you understood evolution you would understand that there are no apes or monkeys depicted on this shirt. They are all hominids. So where, might I ask, does the race card come into play?

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
jspickler wrote:My 0.02...

If you understood evolution you would understand that there are no apes or monkeys depicted on this shirt. They are all hominids. So where, might I ask, does the race card come into play?


Since it's a silhouette, you really can't say that it's not an ape. Do me a favor, wear that shirt through Atlanta, Selma, Montgomery, Jackson, etc. and let me know how the ape and hominid conversation works out for you.

jspickler


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jspickler
tomspc wrote:Since it's a silhouette, you really can't say that it's not an ape. Do me a favor, wear that shirt through Atlanta, Selma, Montgomery, Jackson, etc. and let me know how the ape and hominid conversation works out for you.


I'm from Columbus, Georgia and am currently living in Virginia and as a biologist, would have no problem wearing this.

Edit: It's not an ape, silhouette or not, since it's in the context of evolutionary progression. If the first silhouette were standing alone then I would agree with you since it appears ape-like. However, it's shown here in the context of human evolution which would make it a common ancestor, not an ape. Anyone exposed to this image in school should understand that.

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
jspickler wrote:I'm from Columbus, Georgia and am currently living in Virginia and as a biologist, would have no problem wearing this.

Edit: It's not an ape, silhouette or not, since it's in the context of evolutionary progression. If the first silhouette were standing alone then I would agree with you since it appears ape-like. However, it's shown here in the context of human evolution which would make it a common ancestor, not an ape. Anyone exposed to this image in school should understand that.


"No, that's not a Swastika I'm wearing. It's an equilateral cross with four arms bent at right angles. And did you know that it's an ornament that was widely used in the Indus Valley Civilization of Ancient India? What? You didn't learn ancient history in school. You're joking, right?"

Yeah, I see how my education can easily explain that to people who might be offended. Thanks for the pointers!

meandsecoya


quality posts: 12 Private Messages meandsecoya
Re: Join the evolution


I think it's interesting that an identical shirt (which was probably submitted to prove a point) was rejected for "photos, halftones, racist" but this one still stands. Yes, the other one was a direct copy of this one, so it should have been rejected, but being a copy of this one wasn't WHY it was rejected.

Edit: Nevermind, I see it was submitted AS a rejection. Sorry.

Mavyn


quality posts: 22 Private Messages Mavyn
meandsecoya wrote:I think it's interesting that an identical shirt (which was probably submitted to prove a point) was rejected for "photos, halftones, racist" but this one still stands. Yes, the other one was a direct copy of this one, so it should have been rejected, but being a copy of this one wasn't WHY it was rejected.


Look again. That one (as of now) has not been rejected (it shows 0 votes and can still be voted on). The design was MADE with the REJECTED stamp and the design name is Rejected: ect ect. So that is not from woot at all.

My speech is not parsing. I am speaking in ellipsis.

meandsecoya


quality posts: 12 Private Messages meandsecoya
Mavyn wrote:Look again. That one (as of now) has not been rejected (it shows 0 votes and can still be voted on). The design was MADE with the REJECTED stamp and the design name is Rejected: ect ect. So that is not from woot at all.


Yeah, I saw that right after I posted and edited my post to reflect it. Apparently, I haven't had enough coffee yet.

Mavyn


quality posts: 22 Private Messages Mavyn
meandsecoya wrote:Yeah, I saw that right after I posted and edited my post to reflect it. Apparently, I haven't had enough coffee yet.


I'm on my second cup, so I empathize. ;)

My speech is not parsing. I am speaking in ellipsis.

cdrewlow


quality posts: 9 Private Messages cdrewlow
deborah11565 wrote:No Way !!! Nobody on here would fake anything.


My real beard is a lot less majestic and a lot grayer.

citizencoyote


quality posts: 42 Private Messages citizencoyote
phoenixgirrl wrote:In addition to this being offensive, it's also a pop culture riff. How is this not rejected?

For the same reason all of the "Keep Calm and Carry On" derivatives are not being rejected.

deboraho wrote:I believe RAMYB must be a WOOT employee.... only thing that makes SENSE !

I hope you're being sarcastic.

As for this particular entry, I have mixed feelings about it. I think Ramy should have chosen a different font for the slogan, but as this is clearly parody use of Obama's old slogan I don't think it runs afoul of any copyright. The evolution image is so burned into my mind after years of science and anthropology classes that I didn't think twice about his rendition of it. I can see where people could infer racism or such from the juxtaposition of the image with the slogan, but not everyone would see it and I certainly don't think it's reflective of Ramy's views.

I will say that when a Ramy entry generates a huge discussion, it feels like the old Woot again.

ThunderThighs


quality posts: 584 Private Messages ThunderThighs

Staff

Just a reminder to keep your comments focused on THIS design and keep comments civil.

If you have issues with the design, tattle.

Comments on the design? Great but focus on the design.

Thanks!



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Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5
Edit for on topicness. I think the shirt is genuinely funny.. really funny! Outside of this derby I'd probably even buy it. That said, the clip art, the definitely pop-culture slogan, and the lack of propaganda style is plenty of reason not to vote for it. And, the clip art/ pop culture should be reason enough for rejection.

tomspc wrote:No one will look at this design as evolution humor. I doubt Ramyb meant it that way however I would not risk offending people by wearing that shirt.


By that logic, all of the voters that put this piece in the fog must go ape-Gaaar, Peter! for racist humor. Shame on them!

Also, If a person or persons misunderstand or misinterpret something to be racist, the something then becomes racist, even if it wasn't racist to begin with?

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
Johndis5 wrote:By that logic, all of the voters that put this piece in the fog must go ape-Gaaar, Peter! for racist humor. Shame on them!

Also, If a person or persons misunderstand or misinterpret something to be racist, the something then becomes racist, even if it wasn't racist to begin with?



Ok I will try to explain it in simple terms for you. We all have the knowledge that the design is based on science and WWII propaganda, armed with that knowledge, the design is not racist. However outside the derby, in the real world, people who see the design will not be armed with that knowledge. This is when the design can be misunderstood and appear racist.

No one remembers Bush or Clinton's campaign slogans so down the road after Obama has left office, his campaign slogan will be forgotten as well. Then the design will not be offensive because no one will remember that it's tied to Obama. The timing is bad.

I've said this before, if you have to explain the design to people then there is something wrong with the design.

Johndis5 wrote:Edit for on topicness. ...That said, the clip art, the definitely pop-culture slogan, and the lack of propaganda style is plenty of reason not to vote for it. And, the clip art/ pop culture should be reason enough for rejection.


EDIT: Agree 100% but apparently Woot is not going to reject this design for those reasons, even though they have rejected many in the past for those same offenses.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
tomspc wrote:EDIT: Agree 100% but apparently Woot is not going to reject this design for those reasons, even though they have rejected many in the past for those same offenses.


I'm not sure why my comment on the matter got deleted earlier, but woot is not rejecting it because it is not clip art and it is not a photo. It is 100% hand drawn, and does not match up with any references whatesoever. It doesn't even come close to matching up, it is only similar in as much as the poses are reminiscent, and that is in no way rejectionable at all, especially considering the ubiquitous nature of the evolution image.

Secondly, I don't think that the propaganda component of this design is necessary in order for it to be understood. I think the idea is 100% clear to anyone who has ever heard of evolution at first glance, so it works just fine outside the context of the derby.

Third, I'm not sure why this would be considered pop culture when references to specific communist propaganda would not be. Pop culture doesn't mean recent culture, it just means popular and often cited, which communist references fall into much more easily. The way I understood the no pop culture riffs rule is related to the science subject matter depicted (eg no Bill Nye as Uncle Sam), but if using things like an Uncle Sam style poster would fall under the category of no pop culture, there would be very few entries left in the derby and I really don't think that's the nature of what woot intended with this theme.

Anyway, I don't think anyone is going to be convinced one way or the other at this point, and I am glad to see that there are many people out there enjoying this design for its intended message. Thanks to all of you, and hopefully my future ideas will be seen as less controversial :P

jspickler


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jspickler
tomspc wrote:"No, that's not a Swastika I'm wearing. It's an equilateral cross with four arms bent at right angles. And did you know that it's an ornament that was widely used in the Indus Valley Civilization of Ancient India? What? You didn't learn ancient history in school. You're joking, right?"

Yeah, I see how my education can easily explain that to people who might be offended. Thanks for the pointers!


If you are worried about being perceived as racist for wearing this clever design, just don't buy it if it prints. Your persistent rantings on the many flaws you see with the design are not convincing Woot staff to reject it nor are they preventing me (and many others) from buying it if printed. You can be the first to point at me and call me racist next time I head through ATL.

BootsBoots


quality posts: 37 Private Messages BootsBoots

I find this slogan design to be incredibly clever (and slogans are kind of my thing). I'd wear it, and I'm sure no one would think that it's racist. I live in backwoods country and even we have heard of evolution.

Edit: It seriously tickles me that this shirt could be seen as racist. Reading that kind of made my day.


Johndis5


quality posts: 3 Private Messages Johndis5

Armed with the knowledge of the derby will not stop hordes of people from calling out something if they thought it could be construed as racist. That's 30% of what people do on the internet. The fact is, no one else is saying it, because no one else is seeing it.

I'm sure this whole thread has inspired people to look at it again and try to see it as racist. Still, nothing.

Also, if Woot! is paying attention, I think it's time to filter the word "racist".

DJTweekNYC


quality posts: 4 Private Messages DJTweekNYC
Re: Join the evolution


I don't think this design calls for so much outrage. I think it's very clever. In fact, it's the perfect time for it. As far as it being construed as racist, I think you have to be a little racist to see it that way. I think the only people being offended by this shirt are fundamentalists, and that's OK by me. But I have to agree with another person from this forum, if this was a different artist's submission, then I don't think people would be as outraged at all.

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
Re: Join the evolution


Buncha godless heathens upinz.
This design offends me to the core of my being*.

I'm not a robot
I'm not a monkey
I will not dance even if the beat is funky.



*nonotreally

move along

tomspc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tomspc
DJTweekNYC wrote:I don't think this design calls for so much outrage. I think it's very clever. In fact, it's the perfect time for it. As far as it being construed as racist, I think you have to be a little racist to see it that way. I think the only people being offended by this shirt are fundamentalists, and that's OK by me. But I have to agree with another person from this forum, if this was a different artist's submission, then I don't think people would be as outraged at all.


Wrong. This is the first time this artist has submitted artwork since I've started participating in the forums. My only thought about this artist is that they're not as talented as I thought they would be, considering the huge fan base.

I have no issue with photo usage. My biggest issue is with the double-standard. I watched an artist get beat-up and rejected twice last week for the same thing this artist did. The reason was "seems to be a photo". Either it is or isn't. I think the same rules should apply to all.

And I do feel this design can be and probably will be considered offensive, especially by people who are not in on the know. I have posted this design on FB and shared with my colleagues; about 60% found it offensive. The rest either didn't know that it was Obama's slogan or too young to get the black/monkey reference from our history or felt the way you do, that it's clever.

TommyGunES


quality posts: 0 Private Messages TommyGunES

Not going to join the debate, but this entry reminded me of this poster, which I think is funnier/better:

shellbell330


quality posts: 1 Private Messages shellbell330
tomspc wrote:Wrong. This is the first time this artist has submitted artwork since I've started participating in the forums. My only thought about this artist is that they're not as talented as I thought they would be, considering the huge fan base.


This is a RamyB shirt. There is always a debate or controversy over one of his shirts. He is also one of the most printed artists in woot history.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
TommyGunES wrote:Not going to join the debate, but this entry reminded me of this poster, which I think is funnier/better:


Love it.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

neuropsychosocial


quality posts: 171 Private Messages neuropsychosocial
tomspc wrote:Wrong. This is the first time this artist has submitted artwork since I've started participating in the forums.

Wrong. You even commented on Ramy's entry to Derby 269 last week (Honorable Mention).

I won't bother going back further than that.

RIP A.A. Blanks (Obituary)

pappanino


quality posts: 2 Private Messages pappanino

awesome..... that is all

cbearns


quality posts: 1 Private Messages cbearns
tomspc wrote:I understand what your saying about the PCness of it all and I agree people are overly sensitive these days BUT this is an election year where Obama and that campaign slogan are everywhere. The timing is bad for this design. Keep in mind that there is a long history in this country of white people comparing black people to apes and monkeys. So putting apes on Obama's campaign slogan can and will be misunderstood by many people. This is why it is highly offensive. No one will look at this design as evolution humor. I doubt Ramyb meant it that way however I would not risk offending people by wearing that shirt.


Agreed. I think the racial overtones were unintentional, but are still offensive given the long history of portraying Black and African-Americans as apes.

Obama is an incumbent president. In an election year, "change" means that someone else would be elected. So the "before" would be Obama, the "after" would be the new President. On this shirt, the "before" is an ape and the "after" is a human. Using Obama's campaign slogan invites direct political comparisons.

I dig the idea, but the final product carries all sorts of nasty racist implications. Artist's good intentions aside, I do not believe this shirt should be printed.

scubastove


quality posts: 0 Private Messages scubastove
neuropsychosocial wrote:Wrong. You even commented on Ramy's entry to Derby 269 last week (Honorable Mention).

I won't bother going back further than that.


+1 internet to you.

Inconsistency is not a good thing to present in a debate. It makes your entire argument questionable in a huge way. The fact that you are writing this shirt off as racist is laughable. There's nothing wrong with it at all. I agree with many of the previous posters suggesting that the depicted "evolving from chimpanzee to human" image, in and of itself, is recognized enough to essentially become public domain, no one artistic entity "owns" that image, for Christ's sake. That is akin to chastising someone for drawing a picture of the solar system, if the picture they drew is somehow reminiscent of a picture that someone else drew 30 years ago.

tl;dr, This design is fine. The racism accusations are utterly absurd.

Also "if you have to explain a design to someone, it's not a good design", right. yeah. Subtlety is for chumps.

kattotang


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kattotang
scubastove wrote:

Also "if you have to explain a design to someone, it's not a good design", right. yeah. Subtlety is for chumps.


...yeah. I'm not sure who originally said that, but obviously they're confusing "designs" with "jokes". I find that the shirts I own that I consider having the best designs are the ones that baffle the most people.

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