Derby #38: The Year You Were Born
+75

1998 - The moon

1998 - The moon
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m2mla2


quality posts: 0 Private Messages m2mla2
Re: 1998 - The moon


In 1998, the Clementine probe found frozen water under the surface of the moon. Also, John Glenn, who had landed on the moon, went back into space. This shirt shows both.

I'm turning 10 this year, woot!

m2mla2


quality posts: 0 Private Messages m2mla2
Re: 1998 - The moon


My mom let me buy the Koi shirt that she has too, and now I can vote for myself!

And for other people, too.

mjc613


quality posts: 47 Private Messages mjc613
Re: 1998 - The moon

Welcome to woot, m2m. I really like how the colors on your shirt really stand out. I wish other designers understood the concept of contrast as well as you do.

Keep drawing, I think you have a good eye for what works well on a shirt.

ilstu99


quality posts: 5 Private Messages ilstu99
Re: 1998 - The moon


I love your shirt! Keep up the good work!

gnuhise


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gnuhise
m2mla2 wrote:In 1998, the Clementine probe found frozen water under the surface of the moon. Also, John Glenn, who had landed on the moon, went back into space. This shirt shows both.

I'm turning 10 this year, woot!


John Glenn never landed on the moon. He was only in orbital flight. The shirt can still apply though.

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
gnuhise wrote:John Glenn never landed on the moon. He was only in orbital flight. The shirt can still apply though.


Please blame her mom's memory problems, not her. Ooops. Thanks for the correction!

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

Jewdave


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jewdave
mia3mom wrote:Please blame her mom's memory problems, not her. Ooops. Thanks for the correction!


I LOVE how the clementine probe looks JUST like a clementine... MMMMM... GMV!!!

-------------------------------------
40 x Shirt.Woot!
10 x Woot!
12 x Crap!
1 x Kids.Woot!
1 x Sport.Woot!
1 x Wine.Woot!
-------------------------------------

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Re: 1998 - The moon


Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers? What does a parent say when their ten year old kid starts getting the sort of critiques that wooters tend to give, and comes running over crying? For all the silly censors, for all the designs people insist are for babies, this is not a kids' site, and it certainly isn't a kids' design site. Which is to say nothing of the 40-something people not related to the kid who voted for it. This isn't "encourage people central." This is a shirt contest. You think you're making a kid feel good, but all you're really doing is making a strong case against your competence to be allowed to choose printable shirts.

jenny78


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jenny78
AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers? What does a parent say when their ten year old kid starts getting the sort of critiques that wooters tend to give, and comes running over crying? For all the silly censors, for all the designs people insist are for babies, this is not a kids' site, and it certainly isn't a kids' design site. Which is to say nothing of the 40-something people not related to the kid who voted for it. This isn't "encourage people central." This is a shirt contest. You think you're making a kid feel good, but all you're really doing is making a strong case against your competence to be allowed to choose printable shirts.


This is awesome. I was wondering when you were going to post in this thread. I seriously couldn't wait for your comment when I saw this in the hotness. Thank You. I couldn't agree more with what you posted.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
AdderXYU wrote:What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers?


Not sure what you meant by this line. Maybe you were thinking too fast and missed a few words when typing? Anyway, as I understand it, the designs honoured on the Best Losers site are chosen by the person who runs that website (Robert, isn't it?). It has nothing to do with the votes.

In general, I agree with you Adder. I do think that it's great to encourage young designers, but I'm afraid that running in the derby may engender false hope and pride or devastatingly critical comments.

But to the young designer - keep on working at it!

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

ilstu99


quality posts: 5 Private Messages ilstu99
AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers? What does a parent say when their ten year old kid starts getting the sort of critiques that wooters tend to give, and comes running over crying? For all the silly censors, for all the designs people insist are for babies, this is not a kids' site, and it certainly isn't a kids' design site. Which is to say nothing of the 40-something people not related to the kid who voted for it. This isn't "encourage people central." This is a shirt contest. You think you're making a kid feel good, but all you're really doing is making a strong case against your competence to be allowed to choose printable shirts.


I genuinely think it's fantastic. I also think a lot of the entries by "adults" are a total joke. Way to cut and paste some clipart. That's some creativity. At least the kid did an original drawing from his own imagination. I'll vote for someone born in 1998, who actually spent some time on his art....over someone who slapped someone else's art on a shirt and called it a "design."

No, this isn't "encourage people central," but it IS about art, and whatever an individual believes to BE art. Don't like it? Don't vote. It's just that easy. YAY!

Dang....at least I could wear this shirt without having to explain it to people....or hope they've partaken of some psilocybin or psyilocin before looking at my t-shirt...

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
eHalcyon wrote:Not sure what you meant by this line. Maybe you were thinking too fast and missed a few words when typing? Anyway, as I understand it, the designs honoured on the Best Losers site are chosen by the person who runs that website (Robert, isn't it?). It has nothing to do with the votes.

In general, I agree with you Adder. I do think that it's great to encourage young designers, but I'm afraid that running in the derby may engender false hope and pride or devastatingly critical comments.

But to the young designer - keep on working at it!


Anyone can technically submit their work to the bestlosers archive, so long as they achieve enough votes... Robert currently has the bar set at 50, to prove that you actually generated some reasonable interest. He selects the entries to feature in his front page post weekly, but any woot designer with an intention to sell and a design that scored well enough can submit to the galleries. This entry is close to that 50 mark last I saw.

i agree that all people who enjoy art should continue making it and honing their skills, but I think that they need to be able to rationalize their relative talent before entering in a contest, and be able to take the lumps that go with it (and believe me, what i've seen 'round here tells me that all artists, great and terrible, need thick skin). An aspiring artist this young is simply gearing themselves up for mockery in an outlet like this, when they should be practicing, drawing for fun, for themselves, and picking up skills as they get more practice at it. I in no way want to discourage a kid from being artistic, but there's a level that should be reached first, in either skill or maturity, and to have someone enter lacking in both is a detriment not only to the derby, but the aspiring artist himself (or herself in this case).

jdrage


quality posts: 3 Private Messages jdrage

Like me, you are probabely looking at this entry because you searched for more recent years out of curiosity. Personally I was astounded that a 10-year-old (even with help from a parent) created and submitted a design. The effort alone should be applauded. Bravo!

While this is indeed far from "encouragement central", I have seen among the pseudo-anonymous trash talk some thoughtful design critique and helpful commentary from the peanut gallery. True that the designer should be able to "take the lumps". Is that out of the question for a 10-year-old? Maybe. But that's the parent's decision and responsibility when approving the entry. Learning to take criticism is arguably a lesson we could all have gone through a little sooner.

The age of the designer alone should not be a reason to shun an entry. Had the theme not given it away, would you have known the age of the submitter? Certainly, a design created by a 10-year-old is unlikely going to be of the same calibre as one created by a designer with 10 years of experience (unless he/she started at birth ). If the design isn't compelling, it won't get votes. But to me, part of the value of a shirt.woot shirt is the story behind it. And this certainly has a noteworthy story.

Now, a couple of notes to the designer. I agree with the person who spoke of colour choices. The contrast is nice and the bold colours work well. Use a vector-based design tool to smooth out those "jaggies", and add a vanishing point for a bit of perspective and I think you've got a winner!

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
AdderXYU wrote:I in no way want to discourage a kid from being artistic, but there's a level that should be reached first, in either skill or maturity, and to have someone enter lacking in both is a detriment not only to the derby, but the aspiring artist himself (or herself in this case).


Fair enough, but I'd like to point out one thing - you said a kid needs to reach a certain level of "either skill or maturity." Now you're assume that the kid isn't mature. Sure, she may be quite young, but that is no measure of maturity. I know plenty of kids in elementary school that are very mature - as well as plenty of university students who are not mature at all.

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
eHalcyon wrote:Fair enough, but I'd like to point out one thing - you said a kid needs to reach a certain level of "either skill or maturity." Now you're assume that the kid isn't mature. Sure, she may be quite young, but that is no measure of maturity. I know plenty of kids in elementary school that are very mature - as well as plenty of university students who are not mature at all.


Wanting to submit this design signals "not mature" to me. There's really no nice way around it. Eventually the story ends with this being a bad design that people are encouraging with votes, as though somehow age compensates for quality, and as bad as it is to see mediocre shirts win the derby for what they reference, it is twice as painful to see an obviously poorly done shirt advance in the derby to this level just because the artist is ten. i've seen monkeys paint, and the fact that they're monkeys doesn't make me want to buy it.

Jewdave


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jewdave
AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers? What does a parent say when their ten year old kid starts getting the sort of critiques that wooters tend to give, and comes running over crying? For all the silly censors, for all the designs people insist are for babies, this is not a kids' site, and it certainly isn't a kids' design site. Which is to say nothing of the 40-something people not related to the kid who voted for it. This isn't "encourage people central." This is a shirt contest. You think you're making a kid feel good, but all you're really doing is making a strong case against your competence to be allowed to choose printable shirts.



First of all this is an open derby so anyone in the public has the ability to possibly some day have a shirt created from their original art. This design is better than many I have seen posted and I also have no question as to whether or not this is an original piece. While I agree that people should not click on the "I'd Want One" button as encouragement for a 10 year old, I do think that a 10, 98, 30, or even 2 year old has the right to submit an entry if it fits into the rules of the contest. If a person wants to wear a shirt that has a 10 year-olds drawing on it, who are you to say otherwise? If this were T-ShirtDesignersOnly.woot.com I would fully support your cause, but it is not. Frankly, I don't think we'd see many of the wonderfully smart and creative entries we do if it were for designers or artists only. Let the voting public decide what they want to wear... Next are you going to tell us we cannot vote for a politician who has no experience in politics?

-------------------------------------
40 x Shirt.Woot!
10 x Woot!
12 x Crap!
1 x Kids.Woot!
1 x Sport.Woot!
1 x Wine.Woot!
-------------------------------------

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Jewdave wrote: Next are you going to tell us we cannot vote for a politician who has no experience in politics?


Is he a good politician? Vote for him. Is he a bad politician? Don't.

Same with shirts. If a 10 year old savant came in drawing designs that were threadless quality, my jaw would drop, and i'd hope to see more of them. This is not "tshirt designers only.woot", but there is a difference between being a designer and being printworthy... I've seen many great shirts by amateurs, and many bad ones by pros. But the fact is here, in any other derby, without an age being given anywhere, this design would be lucky to have 5 votes based on the quality. there is no doubt people are voting based on age, not quality, and quality should be a damn big part of the equation, don't you think?

Jewdave


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jewdave
AdderXYU wrote:Is he a good politician? Vote for him. Is he a bad politician? Don't.

Same with shirts. If a 10 year old savant came in drawing designs that were threadless quality, my jaw would drop, and i'd hope to see more of them. This is not "tshirt designers only.woot", but there is a difference between being a designer and being printworthy... I've seen many great shirts by amateurs, and many bad ones by pros. But the fact is here, in any other derby, without an age being given anywhere, this design would be lucky to have 5 votes based on the quality. there is no doubt people are voting based on age, not quality, and quality should be a damn big part of the equation, don't you think?


But who is to determine quality? The ultimate consumer is the only person that matters in this competition. To many Jackson Pollock's work looks like what a 10 year-old could create, yet his work is still considered art, and on top of that, highly influential art that had a hand in changing the publics view of great art.

In the end, if someone wants to wear something a child obviously created, let them!

-------------------------------------
40 x Shirt.Woot!
10 x Woot!
12 x Crap!
1 x Kids.Woot!
1 x Sport.Woot!
1 x Wine.Woot!
-------------------------------------

mjc613


quality posts: 47 Private Messages mjc613
Re: 1998 - The moon



First of all, I LIKE THIS AND WOULD WEAR IT. Many of you may be too young to remember ties with children's drawings on them. The ties were sold as a fundraiser for a charity ( can't remember which one), but they sold because they really looked good, even with a dark suit. I think this would look good on a shirt, but you don't have to agree with me.

Second of all, I think it is late enough in the derby that this kind of entry should be fine. I agree that having a "just for fun" or "encouragement vote" shirt get into the hotness on the first day is not a good thing. But by now, the only new entries that get all the way to the top are the really outstanding ones. In fact, it takes a lot to get into the top 100 if you enter at this point. I realize that getting into the hotness at this point takes momentum away from other designs, but in general, that only lasts for about an hour or 2, and then the novelty wears off. This is just my observation, not based on any statistics, sanctioned or otherwise.

If by some fluke this won, I would buy 2. It's exponentially better than anything woot has put in the dailies for weeks, and better than many derby entries, past and present. If I am in the minority for thinking that, so be it.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Jewdave wrote:But who is to determine quality? The ultimate consumer is the only person that matters in this competition. To many Jackson Pollock's work looks like what a 10 year-old could create, yet his work is still considered art, and on top of that, highly influential art that had a hand in changing the publics view of great art.

In the end, if someone wants to wear something a child obviously created, let them!


i can't believe I'm seriously arguing about a 10-year-old's design being wearable or not. Woot has seriously reached a new low.

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight

Adder, while I agree with some of what you say, the vitriolic and (dare I pun) venomous way in which you say it seems to be what causes other people on here to disagree with you so strongly. I have noticed, being a bit of a vote watcher this derby, that almost anyone whose shirt gets attacked in an acidic manner (regardless of whether the complaints are well-founded or spurious) tends to gain votes more rapidly.

Surely someone who spends as much time thinking about shirts and designing as yourself can see the results of virulent attacks merely makes the attacker’s problem worse, not better. You can see that rather than discouraging people from voting for the shirts you dislike, you’re actually encouraging them. I understand that you’re quite upset by a lot of the things that happen here that you feel are either unfair or, at the very least, unsupervised by Woot. I understand the frustration of seeing poorly designed shirts get a lot of votes when your own shirts get ignored (I experience that myself, believe me). I’m hoping, though, that you can express your emotions in ways that are no less concrete and powerful, but that leave voters with less of a bad taste in their mouths having read your comments. It’s not a matter of “playing nice” to try to avoid hurting people’s feelings. Rather it’s acting in your own self-interest to accomplish your goals rather than encourage people to do the opposite of what you would like them to do.

I think this is getting kind of long for a post, so I’m going to address my ideas about a ten-year-old designer in the next post I make in this thread.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
AdderXYU wrote:Wanting to submit this design signals "not mature" to me. There's really no nice way around it. Eventually the story ends with this being a bad design that people are encouraging with votes, as though somehow age compensates for quality, and as bad as it is to see mediocre shirts win the derby for what they reference, it is twice as painful to see an obviously poorly done shirt advance in the derby to this level just because the artist is ten. i've seen monkeys paint, and the fact that they're monkeys doesn't make me want to buy it.


Eh, I wouldn't call that immature. She just wanted to submit something - doesn't speak much about maturity.


AdderXYU wrote:there is no doubt people are voting based on age, not quality, and quality should be a damn big part of the equation, don't you think?


While I'm sure some people WOULD wear buy and wear this, I do have to agree with this statement. I think that most people would not have voted for this if not for the age of the artist, as mean as that sounds. ><


mjc613 wrote:If by some fluke this won, I would buy 2. It's exponentially better than anything woot has put in the dailies for weeks, and better than many derby entries, past and present. If I am in the minority for thinking that, so be it.


I think I have to agree with that. The most recent run of dailies has been quite underwhelming.


AdderXYU wrote:i can't believe I'm seriously arguing about a 10-year-old's design being wearable or not. Woot has seriously reached a new low.


The engineer in me wants to point out that this is a fallacious argument that has nothing to do with the original conversation. ;) Also, I don't see why you had to mention the age again - you said earlier that age had nothing to do with it. =P



I see no reason why the girl shouldn't submit her design and no reason why people shouldn't vote for it if they want to. Many people have probably been voting because of the age of the designer, but most of those voters would probably actually buy and wear this as well, for the reason described by mjc613.

Is it the best design? I say no. Is that an unquestionable truth? I will hit you with an International Baccalaureate Theory of Knowledge question and ask you what truth is - something set in stone to begin with, or whatever the community as a whole decides is true?

This late in the game, there is virtually no chance of this design winning anyway. This is true of any design submitted so late and not a judgement of quality. There's really no point in arguing about this - it's inane and a moot point, really. If you really want to make a kerfuffle, wait until she makes the fog in the next derby. ;)

Once more to the designer - I hope these comments aren't too discouraging, but as Jimiyo has recently pointed out, the woot community is HARSH. ^^

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

Jewdave


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jewdave
daedalusknight wrote: that almost anyone whose shirt gets attacked in an acidic manner (regardless of whether the complaints are well-founded or spurious) tends to gain votes more rapidly.


If only that worked for my first few "Elvis" shirts....

-------------------------------------
40 x Shirt.Woot!
10 x Woot!
12 x Crap!
1 x Kids.Woot!
1 x Sport.Woot!
1 x Wine.Woot!
-------------------------------------

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
daedalusknight wrote:Adder, while I agree with some of what you say, the vitriolic and (dare I pun) venomous way in which you say it seems to be what causes other people on here to disagree with you so strongly. I have noticed, being a bit of a vote watcher this derby, that almost anyone whose shirt gets attacked in an acidic manner (regardless of whether the complaints are well-founded or spurious) tends to gain votes more rapidly.

Surely someone who spends as much time thinking about shirts and designing as yourself can see the results of virulent attacks merely makes the attacker’s problem worse, not better. You can see that rather than discouraging people from voting for the shirts you dislike, you’re actually encouraging them. I understand that you’re quite upset by a lot of the things that happen here that you feel are either unfair or, at the very least, unsupervised by Woot. I understand the frustration of seeing poorly designed shirts get a lot of votes when your own shirts get ignored (I experience that myself, believe me). I’m hoping, though, that you can express your emotions in ways that are no less concrete and powerful, but that leave voters with less of a bad taste in their mouths having read your comments. It’s not a matter of “playing nice” to try to avoid hurting people’s feelings. Rather it’s acting in your own self-interest to accomplish your goals rather than encourage people to do the opposite of what you would like them to do.

I think this is getting kind of long for a post, so I’m going to address my ideas about a ten-year-old designer in the next post I make in this thread.


Je d'accord!

Hmm... perhaps I should make some random accounts and troll my own designs when next I enter a derby...

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight

Okay, so now I’m going to speak directly to your points about this entry.

Can it be dangerous, emotionally, for a child to enter a derby where adults are competing?

Yes, it most certainly can be. Parents should very much consider whether a child is emotionally mature enough to handle being in a competition, as it can be a great disappointment and, as you point out, many people can be very mean and vicious in their comments about a shirt’s design. A parent considering this should speak with the child before letting her or him take part. The parent should be sure that the child knows that she or he probably will not win and also that there will be people making critical comments about the shirt as well. The parent should monitor the things said about the shirt design and only allow the child to read comments that the parent feels the child is ready for. That’s good web behavior in general, not just for shirt contests.

Can a child’s design take attention from other, more sophisticated designs?

Yes, it absolutely can. Being an uncle, though, I know quite well that there’s a gigantic market for things that look like children created them. Families with young kids buy that stuff all the time. Heck, I even know a guy in the greeting card business whose job is to draw art that looks like a child did it. It sells greeting cards and it will sell shirts too.

Is it unfair to use a designer’s age as a selling point to get votes?

Well it’s not exactly playing nice, but people present all kinds of personal information that winds up getting votes for them. If this were a competition where nobody told any stories, nobody explained the meaning of a shirt or why they did it, then we most certainly would have a different voting result. Would that mean we would get “better” shirts out of the derby? I really don’t think so. There seem to be a ton of people who don’t even bother reading the forum at all, much less participate in it. They seem to be, by and large, the majority (if I can count the number of votes and the number of posters as a good indicator there). They very often pick quite poorly designed shirts. And then pay money for them.

Continued next post....

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight

Can a ten-year-old make a design worth putting on a t-shirt?

Absolutely. Take a look at this:



It was drawn by a child. Compare that to your own drawing of a horse for this derby.

Here’s her website: Cards by Caiti

Sometimes children are exceptional for their age. Here’s another:

Three year old painter

Clearly he’s no Monet, but he’s managed to grasp shading, composition, and (if that dog painting at the beginning is any indication) he’s going to have a handle on foreshortening by the time he’s ten, I’m sure. That’s more than I can say for a lot of adult entries on here.

Now, despite having said all this, I’m actually very much on your side. I really don’t want this to become a “kid’s art” site where we’re flooded with dozens of entries by children every week. I don’t want to see a lot of young artists get discouraged from doing art because their parents didn’t prepare them properly for an adult world. I really, REALLY don’t want to see artists who are wonderful designers come here and conclude that this derby is a joke and then decide not to participate.

But I think it’s okay to allow an exception here and there, either for a very mature child who knows what he or she is getting and whose parent can help that child deal with the adult nature of this site in a positive way... or for a prodigy... a Mozart, if you will, of shirt design, who can do better than most of the designers here, despite a very young age. I would encourage the parents of either one of these exceptions to not make the child’s age known in the derby entry (I realize there wasn’t a choice this time around... but in the future). I very much encourage the parent to be a strong filter on this site and not let the child see all the adult things that get said around here, especially not the most angry and virulent attacks on the design.

Whew... that was way, way more than I intended to say, but I guess I got on a roll. Sorry for making all you folk bored to tears by now, I’m sure. :-)

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
Jewdave wrote:If only that worked for my first few "Elvis" shirts....


I think, actually, you were killed by helpful comments more than harsh ones. People pointed out in a factual manner what they didn't like about the design or why it broke Woot's rules... though I did see a few scathing poison pen letters in there...

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
eHalcyon wrote:Je d'accord!

Hmm... perhaps I should make some random accounts and troll my own designs when next I enter a derby...


Uhm... yeah... don't do that. That's not what I was trying to encourage here. :-)

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
eHalcyon wrote:Je d'accord!

Hmm... perhaps I should make some random accounts and troll my own designs when next I enter a derby...


i have considered this myself... attacking shirts i secretly wanted. I've decided i'm just not that much of a jerk, tho.

i know the cause and effect. As has been said, this late in the game it doesn't matter, it won't win. and that's why it needs to be said. If this makes top 10 out of pity votes or spite for me, it's high enough that woot can't say they didn't notice, and every design woot can't say they didn't notice is a victory, however small. In time, woot will need to make their intentions as a shirt company clear. If they want to be a competition that people think of as a joke, these entries will roll off their backs. if they want to be taken seriously as a shirt site, there will be a breaking point. This should be filed away in woot's mental bank. If it increases votes, so be it... the victory is in making sure it can't be ignored.

Playing nice is fine and good. But for everyone who may feel i'm too harsh, there is likely another saying "thank god SOMEONE said something." Let he who has never laughed at a heather pickens entry cast the first stone.

And as to the small novella posted since I began this, there is a major difference between art by a child and child art. The horses you note are definitely better than I have the skill to make. and they're also not submit to this derby. You bring that kid here, let her compete, you won't hear a peep outta me. If woot decided that all shirts needed to be as well done as said horses, I'd take my rejections like a man until my skill improved enough for their standards. The fact is, this particular entry should not be treated differently from any adult MS Paint debacle. It's the same quality, and should be judged thusly. It's not about a ten year old submitting, it's about submitting the work of an average 10 year old. This should be equally discouraged no matter what the age, but the truth of the matter is, this same work wouldn't be getting any votes from an adult. Because it's not good. Let that be inspiration to improve, instead of letting a whole bunch of undeserved votes create a delusion leading to week after week of work just like this, with no desire to improve upon what's already working.

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
AdderXYU wrote:
Playing nice is fine and good. But for everyone who may feel i'm too harsh, there is likely another saying "thank god SOMEONE said something." Let he who has never laughed at a heather pickens entry cast the first stone.


Again, I have no problem with you saying something. I very often agree with what you have to say and am glad to have heard you say it. I just would prefer if you expressed your opinions with more care. Take a look at what I've done with a few shirts this derby. Darth Vader shirt, as an example, was withdrawn by the user without having to be rejected by Woot. The result of that is that the shirt that's not going to be made anyway is not taking away attention from better shirts that actually have a chance at being published.

I'm not asking for a complete turnaround in your style of expression. Just a bit more carefulness in how you express yourself. I think Bluchez (hope I spelled that correctly) does an good job of this... letting people know what they did wrong but also decidedly not expressing it in a way that insults the person.

Even if they deserve to be insulted. :-)

Okay... I need to head to bed. I'll see you folks another day.

superspryte


quality posts: 21 Private Messages superspryte

Volunteer Moderator

jdrage wrote:Like me, you are probabely looking at this entry because you searched for more recent years out of curiosity. Personally I was astounded that a 10-year-old (even with help from a parent) created and submitted a design. The effort alone should be applauded. Bravo!

While this is indeed far from "encouragement central", I have seen among the pseudo-anonymous trash talk some thoughtful design critique and helpful commentary from the peanut gallery. True that the designer should be able to "take the lumps". Is that out of the question for a 10-year-old? Maybe. But that's the parent's decision and responsibility when approving the entry. Learning to take criticism is arguably a lesson we could all have gone through a little sooner.

The age of the designer alone should not be a reason to shun an entry. Had the theme not given it away, would you have known the age of the submitter? Certainly, a design created by a 10-year-old is unlikely going to be of the same calibre as one created by a designer with 10 years of experience (unless he/she started at birth ). If the design isn't compelling, it won't get votes. But to me, part of the value of a shirt.woot shirt is the story behind it. And this certainly has a noteworthy story.

Now, a couple of notes to the designer. I agree with the person who spoke of colour choices. The contrast is nice and the bold colours work well. Use a vector-based design tool to smooth out those "jaggies", and add a vanishing point for a bit of perspective and I think you've got a winner!

Don't forget about the irrationally rude and lewd comments that come through here frequently. I think Adder's point is this is not a child-safe venue. I do as best as I can but it's not fast enough to eliminate the NSFC aspect.

w: 7 | t.w: 1 | h.w: 1 | tg.w: 0 | sp.w: 0 | a.w: 0 | k.w: 0 | s.w: 15 | w.w: 15 | so.w: 2

mjc613


quality posts: 47 Private Messages mjc613
eHalcyon wrote:Once more to the designer - I hope these comments aren't too discouraging, but as Jimiyo has recently pointed out, the woot community is HARSH. ^^


I'd have to guess that mia is not letting her 10-yr-old read these comments. And for most 10-yr-olds, it will be enough to hear "You have XX votes. There are some nice comments! There is also a discussion about whether you should be an adult to post on woot. It's kind of boring, so how about I just read you the stuff about your art?"

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
mjc613 wrote:I'd have to guess that mia is not letting her 10-yr-old read these comments. And for most 10-yr-olds, it will be enough to hear "You have XX votes. There are some nice comments! There is also a discussion about whether you should be an adult to post on woot. It's kind of boring, so how about I just read you the stuff about your art?"


My daughter is 12, and had just turned 12 when I helped her with her first entry in the dreams contest. I certainly let her read the comments, though I have to say all the comments she's gotten have been positive. Had there been a derby when she was 10, I don't think I would have been comfortable with allowing her to enter. Frankly, I have little doubt about her ability, and I don't think she would have been at a disadvantage in terms of the sophistication of her designs. I'm just not certain that at ten she would have been able to understand the ability of the haters to pose as thoughtful critics when their only purpose was to provoke upset and to foment meanness.

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness?


Thanks Adder. Just when I was starting to agree with you on more topics.

I I am an un-original person to see how my daughter entering a design during a "year you were born" derby damages the derby. And as for her response to critiques, I'm screening them, PLUS you were the first one to critique.

I allowed the entry BECAUSE it was a year you were born derby, so her age would be obvious. It is unlikely she will enter again any time soon. She does have a great sense of design and color, she is just limited by tools (no tablet) and age. I don't think that a 10 year old's design in the hotness is more of a problem than an adult copy/pasting a clip-art image.

Thank you for your concern. Unless woot instills an age limit, then there is no reason why she can't enter.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
jdrage wrote:
Now, a couple of notes to the designer. I agree with the person who spoke of colour choices. The contrast is nice and the bold colours work well. Use a vector-based design tool to smooth out those "jaggies", and add a vanishing point for a bit of perspective and I think you've got a winner!


Thanks! I'll pass this on to her. After some of the above comments, she isn't going to be reading her comments without them being screened.

And as for help, I did very, very little. It was drawn using GIMP on a MacBook, so on a trackpad rather than with a mouse. We're looking at helping her with other design tools, but since it was a year-you-were-born derby, I was fine with her age "showing" in her design.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
eHalcyon wrote:

In general, I agree with you Adder. I do think that it's great to encourage young designers, but I'm afraid that running in the derby may engender false hope and pride or devastatingly critical comments.

But to the young designer - keep on working at it!


Thanks eHalcyon. She has no illusions of winning the derby (though she loved being in the hotness! ;) I have been reading the posts here, and was screening the comments for her.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
Jewdave wrote:First of all this is an open derby so anyone in the public has the ability to possibly some day have a shirt created from their original art. This design is better than many I have seen posted and I also have no question as to whether or not this is an original piece. While I agree that people should not click on the "I'd Want One" button as encouragement for a 10 year old, I do think that a 10, 98, 30, or even 2 year old has the right to submit an entry if it fits into the rules of the contest. If a person wants to wear a shirt that has a 10 year-olds drawing on it, who are you to say otherwise? If this were T-ShirtDesignersOnly.woot.com I would fully support your cause, but it is not. Frankly, I don't think we'd see many of the wonderfully smart and creative entries we do if it were for designers or artists only. Let the voting public decide what they want to wear... Next are you going to tell us we cannot vote for a politician who has no experience in politics?


thank you very much Jewdave.

I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts, but you said it well. I appreciate your post.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
mjc613 wrote:First of all, I LIKE THIS AND WOULD WEAR IT. Many of you may be too young to remember ties with children's drawings on them. The ties were sold as a fundraiser for a charity ( can't remember which one), but they sold because they really looked good, even with a dark suit. I think this would look good on a shirt, but you don't have to agree with me.


Thank you! I appreciate your support of my daughter and your signature! I know Unicef and Save the Children do ties, and I think others do, too.

[user="mjc613"]Second of all, I think it is late enough in the derby that this kind of entry should be fine. I agree that having a "just for fun" or "encouragement vote" shirt get into the hotness on the first day is not a good thing. But by now, the only new entries that get all the way to the top are the really outstanding ones. In fact, it takes a lot to get into the top 100 if you enter at this point. I realize that getting into the hotness at this point takes momentum away from other designs, but in general, that only lasts for about an hour or 2, and then the novelty wears off. This is just my observation, not based on any statistics, sanctioned or otherwise.[/quote]

well said - I wanted her to work on it for a while, so it wasn't entered the first day. And, she wanted to bike ride, play, etc so this wasn't her top focus. In entering in a derby *with her age in the title* I thought it would be a fun thing for her to do. I never expected her to get in the hotness, and once she did we both knew it would wear off soon. She loves watching the votes for the derby, and is quick to point out to anyone who sees our shirt that they are from shirt.woot and the complimenter should go buy one.

[user="mjc613"]If by some fluke this won, I would buy 2. It's exponentially better than anything woot has put in the dailies for weeks, and better than many derby entries, past and present. If I am in the minority for thinking that, so be it.[/quote]

thank you thank you thank you. I'm not sure if I agree with you, but I really appreciate the thought and your support of my daughter.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
daedalusknight wrote:Okay, so now I’m going to speak directly to your points about this entry.

Can it be dangerous, emotionally, for a child to enter a derby where adults are competing?

Yes, it most certainly can be.


agreed. hence why I am filtering the comments for her.

As to your other points, if she were a prodigy, I doubt I would have agreed to let her to enter in a "year you were born" derby. Since the year was evident in the date, she entered. She and I have no plans to let her enter weekly, unless she designs something stunning that can work as a stand-alone piece.

If people could only vote for a certain number of entries, i wouldn't have allowed her to enter, either. That just wouldn't be fair. But in this circumstance, I agreed to let her enter.

In general, I agree with much of what Adder posts, and much of what others are saying. I also think that most "legitimate t-shirt designers" would be entering dailies not the Derby, but that's just me. This was entered on a Tuesday and had no chance of breaking 100 much less fogging. I have seen things done by adults that were much less sophisticated. And honestly, if John Glenn weren't in the pic, I don't know if people would've seen it as a kid's drawing. As daedalusknight pointed out, there are a lot of kid-like artists out there, and some of them are surviving reckoning after reckoning.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

shan24


quality posts: 3 Private Messages shan24
daedalusknight wrote:

Let's not forget that lukekim91 placed in the derby back in September with Decomposition, one of the best-selling shirts on Woot. He was 15 or 16, obviously better able to handle the comments on here but I'm just saying the derby is open to all ages, and all ages have the right to enter. Obviously parents should monitor their kids' computer usage no matter what site they are on, but I don't think Woot needs to step in and enforce a minimum age. Talent is talent, and you can do with your vote as you wish.

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
superspryte wrote:Don't forget about the irrationally rude and lewd comments that come through here frequently. I think Adder's point is this is not a child-safe venue. I do as best as I can but it's not fast enough to eliminate the NSFC aspect.


agreed. We only look at the site together, and I keep an eye on what comments they read and which ones they don't. I have sensitive kids, so they're used to me screening stuff.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

bluchez


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bluchez
Re: 1998 - The moon


Comments:

- This design looks very childlike and nothing like what I would assume anyone that is not currently a child or currently with their children would wear. That said, there is an audience for it, I understand, but woot's audience isn't that one.
- This design has many other problems, that many critics would be happy to critique if not for the overall childlike and MS Paint appearance of the design.
- Make sure that your resulting design is not rectangular or boxy in shape. It does not work well for tshirt designs The fabric is flexible and will flex around the shape of the body, so the designer needs to consider that.
- Make sure that all of your design elements fit into your design area. Leaving a portion of the satellite off the design area with the flat chopped edge make it look very rushed, and that not a lot of thought was put into the design.
- The four "exclamation points" on the design would be argued as being text if not for the overall lack of effort that it appears was put into the design. I do not know their purpose, perhaps "shooting stars", but that is a guess since they look much more like punctuation marks to me.
- The bright orange of the satellite makes it look more organic then man made. The contrast with the gray solar arrays makes it look like a very odd and unrealistic item.
- The lunar surface jaggedness should be smoothed out into an arc, and then crater details should be added.
- The floating crater (?) really detracts from the separation of moon from space.
- The coloring of the moon black and space black really do prevent the visual separation. The surface of the moon should not be the same color as dead space.
- The astronaut's suit is extremely lumpy. I realize that skek's entry may have made you think that all space suits are made of lumps, but taking some time to clean up the lines of the arms and legs would help much. The gloves being different sizes, as well as larger then the boots, make the figure very odd proprortionally. The one round side one flat side of the body is also very noticable and makes it look rushed and childlike.
- Overall, I disagree that the color choice was appropriate or makes a good tshirt altogether. The orange doesn't fit at all, in my opinion. The blue used should be of a lighter shade to not look so out of place on the moon, and would fit more since it was frozen water.

The fact that something like this has more votes then other shirts, specifically, just looking beneath it: Save the Whales, Sprinkbok, Jarvic, Bobby Fischer, and Walkman (each of which took a great deal of time and effort) makes it very discouraging for artists to spend any time or effort working on, much less spending the time to perfect, their pieces. I think that each voter who causes this to happen is encouraging sloppy, childlike, and quickly thrown together pieces to be entered into the derby. It is very discouraging for the AMATEURS that try to perfect their designs each week entering the derby. The argument "this is too late to matter" is a horrible straw to grasp at, because it is not a fear of this getting printed, it is a fear that the people currently putting forth effort will stop putting in the same level of effort, and something like this will be printed in the future.

egsaba


quality posts: 0 Private Messages egsaba

I, for one, would love a totally "crappy" design like one to be sold. I think it would be great to wear a shirt designed by someone without sophisticated design skills. For instance, my favorite derby entry is this one: http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=1266 , which I would love to be able to buy, as long as the picture and text both made it onto the shirt. I want amateur designs!

AttilaTheMom


quality posts: 5 Private Messages AttilaTheMom
Re: 1998 - The moon


There are many reasons why I might vote for a shirt. Age generally isn't one of them. In this case, despite all the obvious design flaws I voted because John Glenn is my hero, and I love space designs (I voted for almost all of them this derby). So she was briefly in the hotness, so what? Who are you people to say what is deserving of being printed and what isn't? This site is as close as we'll get to a perfect democracy in tee shirts, and as we should all know by now, democracy isn't perfect. With more than 30 derbies to date, I think we can safely say that vitriolic bashing hasn't had the desired effect of limiting the derby to 'good' designs. So maybe we should try something different now? Maybe offering thoughtful and polite suggestions would improve the overall quality of submitted designs? In any case, props to mia's kid for even entering, and for doing her own art, and for picking such an awesome vote worthy subject.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH........ whatever.

bluchez


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bluchez
m2mla2 wrote:My mom let me buy the Koi shirt that she has too, and now I can vote for myself!

And for other people, too.


And what is a 9-10 year old doing with a credit card? ;)

AttilaTheMom


quality posts: 5 Private Messages AttilaTheMom
bluchez wrote:And what is a 9-10 year old doing with a credit card? ;)


at least she has good taste in shirts. koi is awesome.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH........ whatever.

treychel


quality posts: 0 Private Messages treychel
AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers? What does a parent say when their ten year old kid starts getting the sort of critiques that wooters tend to give, and comes running over crying? For all the silly censors, for all the designs people insist are for babies, this is not a kids' site, and it certainly isn't a kids' design site. Which is to say nothing of the 40-something people not related to the kid who voted for it. This isn't "encourage people central." This is a shirt contest. You think you're making a kid feel good, but all you're really doing is making a strong case against your competence to be allowed to choose printable shirts.


So, you are concerned about a kid crying because their shirt received some criticism? Shouldn't you be concerned about your comment making this kid cry when they read it or have mom explain it to them? I think it is a good thing that this is in the derby. At least it will teach them a valuable lesson about being a good sport about losing and criticism people can give. Just my opinion.... and for the record, I like it and voted.

jenny78


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jenny78
mjc613 wrote:First of all, I LIKE THIS AND WOULD WEAR IT. Many of you may be too young to remember ties with children's drawings on them. The ties were sold as a fundraiser for a charity ( can't remember which one), but they sold because they really looked good, even with a dark suit. I think this would look good on a shirt, but you don't have to agree with me.

Second of all, I think it is late enough in the derby that this kind of entry should be fine. I agree that having a "just for fun" or "encouragement vote" shirt get into the hotness on the first day is not a good thing. But by now, the only new entries that get all the way to the top are the really outstanding ones. In fact, it takes a lot to get into the top 100 if you enter at this point. I realize that getting into the hotness at this point takes momentum away from other designs, but in general, that only lasts for about an hour or 2, and then the novelty wears off. This is just my observation, not based on any statistics, sanctioned or otherwise.

If by some fluke this won, I would buy 2. It's exponentially better than anything woot has put in the dailies for weeks, and better than many derby entries, past and present. If I am in the minority for thinking that, so be it.


Of course you like it, AND would wear it. It was drawn by your kid. If that's the case, have her draw on a tshirt and proudly wear it. I have kids myself, and I am proud of everything they draw for me, but I wouldn't push their art on anyone who isn't a close to my them. I remember those ties drawn by children, but what you are leaving out is that they were drawn for charity. People who bought them were donating to a charity. This isn't charity woot.com. This is a contest with a payout if you win, and I must say, if I spent anytime at all on an entry and I saw that this entry was ahead of mine in the polls, I would be VERY discouraged. I know this is your kids art, and you, of course, love your child, but this entry would have gotten rejected if she hadn't posted that she was 10 years old. For the exclamation point shooting stars alone. I've seen extremely well drawn shirts rejected for much less. The fact that this has any votes beyond the kid's vote and her mom's vote is insane. The fact that it has 60 votes is just ridiculous. And saying this shirt is better than the dailys is REALLY, REALLY insulting to the artists who have daily shirts printed, and really just false.

BanderMort


quality posts: 0 Private Messages BanderMort
Re: 1998 - The moon


To me this shirt is unwearable, sorry kid.

2thFairy


quality posts: 2 Private Messages 2thFairy
jenny78 wrote:Of course you like it, AND would wear it. It was drawn by your kid. If that's the case, have her draw on a tshirt and proudly wear it. I have kids myself, and I am proud of everything they draw for me, but I wouldn't push their art on anyone who isn't a close to my them. I remember those ties drawn by children, but what you are leaving out is that they were drawn for charity. People who bought them were donating to a charity. This isn't charity woot.com. This is a contest with a payout if you win, and I must say, if I spent anytime at all on an entry and I saw that this entry was ahead of mine in the polls, I would be VERY discouraged. I know this is your kids art, and you, of course, love your child, but this entry would have gotten rejected if she hadn't posted that she was 10 years old. For the exclamation point shooting stars alone. I've seen extremely well drawn shirts rejected for much less. The fact that this has any votes beyond the kid's vote and her mom's vote is insane. The fact that it has 60 votes is just ridiculous. And saying this shirt is better than the dailys is REALLY, REALLY insulting to the artists who have daily shirts printed, and really just false.



mia3mom is this kid's mom, not mjc613.. unless that is an alternate account

2thFairy


quality posts: 2 Private Messages 2thFairy
Re: 1998 - The moon


I'm all for kids being creative and "anyone can enter this contest," but come on people..get real!! Vote if you would buy this, not because it is a nice thing to do.

artulo


quality posts: 13 Private Messages artulo
Re: 1998 - The moon


Why on earth does this have sixty-something votes? Discouraging, indeed.

pstan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pstan
Re: 1998 - The moon


I like it and I voted for it. I would wear it. If the derby wasn't 'year you were born' you would have no idea it was done by a ten year old.

The other thing is there is no rule about who can enter. Her entry didn't break any rules so it is good to go. All woot asks is if you would want one. They don't ask if it is 'good' or not. If you would wear it vote for it, if you wouldn't then don't.

pennylaned


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pennylaned
pstan wrote:I like it and I voted for it. I would wear it. If the derby wasn't 'year you were born' you would have no idea it was done by a ten year old.

The other thing is there is no rule about who can enter. Her entry didn't break any rules so it is good to go. All woot asks is if you would want one. They don't ask if it is 'good' or not. If you would wear it vote for it, if you wouldn't then don't.


I would wear this!! I love it. It fits the theme very well. If you were born in this year this is what your artwork would look like. Great job. It does not discourage me at all. It is refreshing to have new talent in the derby instead of the same old designers and concepts. If anything it encourages me. I hope you continue to enter your work!! You go girl!

jenny78


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jenny78
pstan wrote:I like it and I voted for it. I would wear it. If the derby wasn't 'year you were born' you would have no idea it was done by a ten year old.

The other thing is there is no rule about who can enter. Her entry didn't break any rules so it is good to go. All woot asks is if you would want one. They don't ask if it is 'good' or not. If you would wear it vote for it, if you wouldn't then don't.


I think EVERYONE would have a pretty good idea that this was drawn by a child even if the theme wasn't the year you were born. C'mon. Say it was for an outer space themed derby, we'd all know it was drawn by a child. If not, then everyone would berate the adult that had the audacity to enter such a 'childish' design, and it would have gotten rejected for the use of text.

pstan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pstan
jenny78 wrote:I think EVERYONE would have a pretty good idea that this was drawn by a child even if the theme wasn't the year you were born. C'mon. Say it was for an outer space themed derby, we'd all know it was drawn by a child. If not, then everyone would berate the adult that had the audacity to enter such a 'childish' design, and it would have gotten rejected for the use of text.


You do realize that some people suck at art eh? Me for example. If I entered stuff it wouldn't be much better than what she accomplished. If people didn't like it they wouldn't vote for it and I would go on my marry way. I would rather see something like this then clip art and copyrighted images.

Also I don't think that the comets are exclamation marks.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
2thFairy wrote:mia3mom is this kid's mom, not mjc613.. unless that is an alternate account


To be fair, it's an easy mistake to make. If you would wear a kid's artwork, you're probably the kid's mom.

The one thing I will agree with in this whole nonsense, other than the "I agree with you, Adder" posts, is that I'd rather have designs like these than clipart. Clipart is rarely superior to a child's art, because the child at least put effort in. But that does not mean it's good. Sure, art is personal, art is a matter of tastes, but seriously, what message does this send the world? It says "woot allows freakin' anyone to enter, AND THEY WILL GET VOTES". If you think the dailies are so bad (and seriously, you know nothing if you think this is better than any of them recently), think to yourself, "Would I want to submit my best work to a site that will vote for children's designs, if I was an artist?"

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
pstan wrote:I like it and I voted for it. I would wear it. If the derby wasn't 'year you were born' you would have no idea it was done by a ten year old.


Yeah, there's absolutely no hints about the age of the artist.

MissLauraB


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MissLauraB
AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby. It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest... what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? What does it say about the voters reliability if a kid's entry looks does well enough to be legitimately included over at Best Losers? What does a parent say when their ten year old kid starts getting the sort of critiques that wooters tend to give, and comes running over crying? For all the silly censors, for all the designs people insist are for babies, this is not a kids' site, and it certainly isn't a kids' design site. Which is to say nothing of the 40-something people not related to the kid who voted for it. This isn't "encourage people central." This is a shirt contest. You think you're making a kid feel good, but all you're really doing is making a strong case against your competence to be allowed to choose printable shirts.


Hmm... I wonder why this 12 year old 'child' resents that comment? As I recall, you were one of the first people to complement one of my designs. By the way, only some wooters give horrid comments. Honestly, Adder, she's 10. Well, m2m, don't take carp. Hope I see your designs in oncoming contests. ;)

superspryte


quality posts: 21 Private Messages superspryte

Volunteer Moderator

MissLauraB wrote:Hmm... I wonder why this 12 year old 'child' resents that comment? As I recall, you were one of the first people to complement one of my designs. By the way, only some wooters give horrid comments. Honestly, Adder, she's 10. Well, m2m, don't take carp. Hope I see your designs in oncoming contests. ;)

Twelve isn't nine. ^_~

w: 7 | t.w: 1 | h.w: 1 | tg.w: 0 | sp.w: 0 | a.w: 0 | k.w: 0 | s.w: 15 | w.w: 15 | so.w: 2

ckpete2887


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ckpete2887

So I've been thinking a lot about it, and I think that if a shirt is in the fog there should also be an option for "I wouldn't want one" or something similar. I think it would make things a lot more interesting. Not sure if it would work, but I think it would be very nice to have.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
MissLauraB wrote:Hmm... I wonder why this 12 year old 'child' resents that comment?


Because this 12 year old is unable to separate her own work from this piece. You're offended by the implication that a younger artist can't produce good work, and you're offended by this because you're a younger artist who feels she can produce good work. Think of it another way: if you'd entered this week, and were being beaten by a 10 year old who drew worse than you, just because that artist was 10, would you not feel slighted? Wouldn't you think "man, I'm only 2 years older, and I can give a number of the adults a run for their money! Why am I not getting more votes?"

The derby should be run on quality, and the fact is that the vast majority of children are simply not going to submit quality. As the derby is right now, I have no problem with you playing the game, because your designs have shirt potential, but I can't see myself feeling bad to lose one artist talented beyond her years for the sake of blocking more of this sort of thing.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
AdderXYU wrote:Because this 12 year old is unable to separate her own work from this piece. You're offended by the implication that a younger artist can't produce good work, and you're offended by this because you're a younger artist who feels she can produce good work. Think of it another way: if you'd entered this week, and were being beaten by a 10 year old who drew worse than you, just because that artist was 10, would you not feel slighted? Wouldn't you think "man, I'm only 2 years older, and I can give a number of the adults a run for their money! Why am I not getting more votes?"

The derby should be run on quality, and the fact is that the vast majority of children are simply not going to submit quality. As the derby is right now, I have no problem with you playing the game, because your designs have shirt potential, but I can't see myself feeling bad to lose one artist talented beyond her years for the sake of blocking more of this sort of thing.


The adult designers you are so protective of, Adder, have submitted 34 entries with text in them, and at least 2 'boob' shirts,
19 without including the year in the title, and one of whom actually submitted shirts for two different years, apparently figuring no-one would notice.
This doesn't include all of the shirts rejected for too many colors, or using obviously copyrighted things or directly pixel for pixel copied artwork, or traced artwork.

These designers need reading lessons, and/or to attempt to comprehend what they've read. They don't need to be protected from one 10 year old kid.

...and you've decided to choose a 10 year old kid as your target of the week. nice work.



I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there are differences in the quality of work among the adult designers, just as there are among the more youthful ones. I don't think that excluding kids younger than, what, 16? is that old enough for you?
anyway, I don't really think that excluding the few kids that might be interested in submitting designs is going to affect the more adult designers in any way. They will continue to complain about how really crappy shirts win every week, and how woot is never going to be a quality place, all because of some other issue- clipart, or traced images, or whatever.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
Re: 1998 - The moon


I was just reading through the massive amount of comments left here and I just wanted to comment on something that bluchez mentioned. He said that the orange made it look more organic - I believe that this was exactly the artist's intention. It's the CLEMENTINE satellite - she wanted it to look like an orange. And obviously she succeeded!

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

MissLauraB


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MissLauraB
AdderXYU wrote:Because this 12 year old is unable to separate her own work from this piece. You're offended by the implication that a younger artist can't produce good work, and you're offended by this because you're a younger artist who feels she can produce good work. Think of it another way: if you'd entered this week, and were being beaten by a 10 year old who drew worse than you, just because that artist was 10, would you not feel slighted? Wouldn't you think "man, I'm only 2 years older, and I can give a number of the adults a run for their money! Why am I not getting more votes?"

The derby should be run on quality, and the fact is that the vast majority of children are simply not going to submit quality. As the derby is right now, I have no problem with you playing the game, because your designs have shirt potential, but I can't see myself feeling bad to lose one artist talented beyond her years for the sake of blocking more of this sort of thing.


Adder, I seriously doubt woot is going to block kids off the sight because you don't like a design that happens to be by a kid. I have friends who draw really well and friends who don't. There are adults on the sight who draw really well and adults who don't. What makes up the fun of entering in a derby is seeing the votes rise up -- So I wouldn't care whether a design by someone younger got votes -- besides, I haven't even entered this contest.

rabbitjr


quality posts: 2 Private Messages rabbitjr
jdrage wrote:
The age of the designer alone should not be a reason to shun an entry. Had the theme not given it away, would you have known the age of the submitter? Certainly, a design created by a 10-year-old is unlikely going to be of the same calibre as one created by a designer with 10 years of experience (unless he/she started at birth ). If the design isn't compelling, it won't get votes. But to me, part of the value of a shirt.woot shirt is the story behind it. And this certainly has a noteworthy story.


This design is certainly much better than some of the others submitted, by older artists! I only wish I had such talent!

superspryte


quality posts: 21 Private Messages superspryte

Volunteer Moderator

Josephus wrote:The adult designers you are so protective of, Adder, have submitted 34 entries with text in them, and at least 2 'boob' shirts,
19 without including the year in the title, and one of whom actually submitted shirts for two different years, apparently figuring no-one would notice.
This doesn't include all of the shirts rejected for too many colors, or using obviously copyrighted things or directly pixel for pixel copied artwork, or traced artwork.

These designers need reading lessons, and/or to attempt to comprehend what they've read. They don't need to be protected from one 10 year old kid.

...and you've decided to choose a 10 year old kid as your target of the week. nice work.



I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there are differences in the quality of work among the adult designers, just as there are among the more youthful ones. I don't think that excluding kids younger than, what, 16? is that old enough for you?
anyway, I don't really think that excluding the few kids that might be interested in submitting designs is going to affect the more adult designers in any way. They will continue to complain about how really crappy shirts win every week, and how woot is never going to be a quality place, all because of some other issue- clipart, or traced images, or whatever.

The person with multiple years must have a split personality then, because there were two different writing styles and they claimed to be siblings. ^_~

And many people are getting upset with Adder over this. But you yourself said you wouldn't have been keen on miss Laura entering over two years ago. This is a hostile environment. To me it's like taking a kid to an R-rated movie. Ultimately it's at the discretion of the parents but everyone else can see the kid and you bet that parent's going to get frowned at.

w: 7 | t.w: 1 | h.w: 1 | tg.w: 0 | sp.w: 0 | a.w: 0 | k.w: 0 | s.w: 15 | w.w: 15 | so.w: 2

geekfactor12


quality posts: 11 Private Messages geekfactor12
Josephus wrote:The adult designers you are so protective of, Adder, have submitted 34 entries with text in them, and at least 2 'boob' shirts,
19 without including the year in the title, and one of whom actually submitted shirts for two different years, apparently figuring no-one would notice.
This doesn't include all of the shirts rejected for too many colors, or using obviously copyrighted things or directly pixel for pixel copied artwork, or traced artwork.

These designers need reading lessons, and/or to attempt to comprehend what they've read. They don't need to be protected from one 10 year old kid.

...and you've decided to choose a 10 year old kid as your target of the week. nice work.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there are differences in the quality of work among the adult designers, just as there are among the more youthful ones. I don't think that excluding kids younger than, what, 16? is that old enough for you?
anyway, I don't really think that excluding the few kids that might be interested in submitting designs is going to affect the more adult designers in any way. They will continue to complain about how really crappy shirts win every week, and how woot is never going to be a quality place, all because of some other issue- clipart, or traced images, or whatever.


I think in general, the comments on this shirt have been pretty similar to the comments that used to show up on HeatherPickens shirts when she submitted. With two differences: 1) the shirt appears to be submitted properly in terms of the jpeg images that were posted, and 2) the designer's age was evident from the shirt title. So there wasn't the same kind of blatant bashing that sometimes happened, but there was sincere praise, which Pickens rarely got (the art is better than a lot of what she submitted, also, which contributes to that).

Overall, I'd say that the age may have affected the vote totals (that appears to be the case, based on the comments, though we have no way of knowing for sure). But even HeatherPickens was in the hotness a few times. So who knows? I'd say that there have been printed derby winners of lower quality than this. It's certainly not the worst entry this week by a longshot, and while there are things ranked lower that took more skill, it's also true to me that there are worse things ranked even higher. This kind of thing is inherent in a popularity contest, which is all a pure voting system ever is. If you need to hate on something, direct it at Woot for putting the system in place, not the individual artists using it to their advantage.

In the end, I'd rather be beaten by a nine year old than clip art. But what I'd prefer even more than that is being beaten by a nine year old who made a much better shirt than me. And truthfully, at least in terms of picking a marketable theme, that totally happened this week :D

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
Re: 1998 - The moon


thank you to everyone who commented. today was spent out of the house but a part of tomorrow will be spent distilling constructive criticism, learning about different choices she could have made, and talking about the negative comments, but with me filtering them, of course. I have a life outside woot, and this was a good distraction from our real-life problems today.

Because of the derby, she is now more interested in saving for a Wacom tablet than a Nintendo DS (yay!), and she has been working off her shirt purchases (no credit card, bluchez - Paypal) with chores, something that is good for everyone. I have tried to write more here about designers improving every derby through constructive criticism, but nothing has come out properly. I have read all the comments, and just can't respond to each one individually, but I have given thought to every point.

As for her shirt getting more votes than more deserving shirts, she is honestly upset by that. JadenKale is one of her favorite designers (3 Nessie shirts in our house), and she is so sad that [url=http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=13090]the great horse design/url] doesn't have more votes. Ditto for many, many other entries. Most of her votes have been for the entries with fewer votes. However, since there's no limit to the number of votes someone can cast, she encourages everyone to vote for the under-appreciated designs.

Many thanks to people who have been supportive, and to the people with constructive criticism!

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

Re: 1998 - The moon



I vote for, would buy and wear Laura's shirts because they are as good as the adults.
I voted for and would buy and wear M2MLA2's shirt because it has the innocience and beauty that only a child has.

You guys are just lucky that there are no mod links on these threads , or you would be on a "play nice" probation.

Playing nice is something you learn in kindergarten. Some of you must have forgotten.

Art should convey a feeling and this shirt does. It reminds me of being a child on a summer night looking at the moon and stars and wondering what it was like up there.
It conveys some of the best parts of being a child.

Laura's dragons, although they could have been drawn by an adult, still have the innocence and sweetness of a child. I showed one to my 21 year old son, and he would wear it too.

It is sad that an adult would be upset that a child was doing better then he was.


As the only mom mod (although we have an aunt mod) I'm going to view negitive comments posted in the thread of any child's shirt as an attack.
There are other threads that you can use to say stuff like this.
Keep it out of the thread that the child should be able to read.
It goes back to the old "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.

You can express your view, but not here. Use the contest thread.


WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

geekfactor12


quality posts: 11 Private Messages geekfactor12
dontwantaname wrote:I vote for, would buy and wear Laura's shirts because they are as good as the adults.
I voted for and would buy and wear M2MLA2's shirt because it has the innocience and beauty that only a child has.

You guys are just lucky that there are no mod links on these threads , or you would be on a "play nice" probation.

Playing nice is something you learn in kindergarten. Some of you must have forgotten.

Art should convey a feeling and this shirt does. It reminds me of being a child on a summer night looking at the moon and stars and wondering what it was like up there.
It conveys some of the best parts of being a child.

Laura's dragons, although they could have been drawn by an adult, still have the innocence and sweetness of a child. I showed one to my 21 year old son, and he would wear it too.

It is sad that an adult would be upset that a child was doing better then he was.


As the only mom mod (although we have an aunt mod) I'm going to view negitive comments posted in the thread of any child's shirt as an attack.
There are other threads that you can use to say stuff like this.
Keep it out of the thread that the child should be able to read.
It goes back to the old "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.

You can express your view, but not here. Use the contest thread.


I would like some more guidance on what constitutes playing nice in terms of commenting on an entry in a contest.

As an artist, I enjoy getting feedback on my work- both favorable and unfavorable, as that is what tells me what areas need improvement. Are we denying children the ability to grow in this way? Because even in elementary school, my art classes involved critiquing.

I've yet to see anything in this thread as something that seemed like an attack on the artist, which is why I would like more feedback on this.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
dontwantaname wrote:I vote for, would buy and wear Laura's shirts because they are as good as the adults.
I voted for and would buy and wear M2MLA2's shirt because it has the innocience and beauty that only a child has.

You guys are just lucky that there are no mod links on these threads , or you would be on a "play nice" probation.

Playing nice is something you learn in kindergarten. Some of you must have forgotten.

Art should convey a feeling and this shirt does. It reminds me of being a child on a summer night looking at the moon and stars and wondering what it was like up there.
It conveys some of the best parts of being a child.

Laura's dragons, although they could have been drawn by an adult, still have the innocence and sweetness of a child. I showed one to my 21 year old son, and he would wear it too.

It is sad that an adult would be upset that a child was doing better then he was.


As the only mom mod (although we have an aunt mod) I'm going to view negitive comments posted in the thread of any child's shirt as an attack.
There are other threads that you can use to say stuff like this.
Keep it out of the thread that the child should be able to read.
It goes back to the old "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.

You can express your view, but not here. Use the contest thread.



Is it a case of moderation power abuse if they say something that requires negative comment? i can't reply to this apparently without getting probation.

These threads are FOR THE ENTRIES!!!! Where else are we supposed to express views if not here???? It's an attack on a child but not on an adult? It'd be the same shirt!!!!!!! And "Play Nice" probations? Yes, you learn that in Kindergarten, but once you get into the adult world you grow some damn thicker skin and accept that the real world doesn't have that rule. This is a bad entry, and it will be a bad entry forever, and if daring to say that is "not playing nice," probate the entire damn board. If a child is going to enter this contest, they need to be treated as an adult, like the rest of us. That means being honest, that means accepting that art isn't suddenly better if you drop the age of the artist, and that means voting for the design, not the artist. You would not be voting for this if i submit it. Why? Because it's unwearable without knowing a kid made it. Do you vote for every MS Paint design? No? Well, I guess you would if it was posted in EBW, but otherwise, I'm certain this is the only one you've voted on

Be a mod. That means being unbiased. Viewing these posts as attacks, any more so than if they were made to someone who was an adult, is not unbiased unless you view ALL these sorts of posts as attacks, no matter who the artist is, and WHOOPS there goes the whole board. If you're unable to be impartial, you don't deserve the title.

peppersabaddog


quality posts: 1 Private Messages peppersabaddog
AdderXYU wrote:Is it a case of moderation power abuse if they say something that requires negative comment? i can't reply to this apparently without getting probation.

These threads are FOR THE ENTRIES!!!! Where else are we supposed to express views if not here???? It's an attack on a child but not on an adult? It'd be the same shirt!!!!!!! And "Play Nice" probations? Yes, you learn that in Kindergarten, but once you get into the adult world you grow some damn thicker skin and accept that the real world doesn't have that rule. This is a bad entry, and it will be a bad entry forever, and if daring to say that is "not playing nice," probate the entire damn board. If a child is going to enter this contest, they need to be treated as an adult, like the rest of us. That means being honest, that means accepting that art isn't suddenly better if you drop the age of the artist, and that means voting for the design, not the artist. You would not be voting for this if i submit it. Why? Because it's unwearable without knowing a kid made it. Do you vote for every MS Paint design?

Be a mod. That means being unbiased. Viewing these posts as attacks, any more so than if they were made to someone who was an adult, is not unbiased. If you're unable to be impartial, you don't deserve the title.





i had no intention of getting involved before this. after reading everything to this point i NOW applaud you adder. i am revolted that this has to happen in a childs thread. first, because both sides argueing about it is lunacy IMO. second, because exactly as you said, a child has no buisness entering if we cannot say the same things to them that are said to cho. HOW DARE any of you differentiate between entries on anything other than merit of design alone. we are not voting for a person you dolts, we are voting on a wearable shirt. there are child art competitions out there and if you want to buy a childs (or some other wooters regular entries for that matter) go there. all of this is repulsive and all of you, should be ashamed of yourselves. one side for putting this dreg in the derbies in the first place, and the other for feeling they have to bring it to the attention of anyone. anyone stupid enough to not understand what a competition is cannot be taught anyway.

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
mia3mom wrote:agreed. hence why I am filtering the comments for her.


Thus demonstrating you are a good parent, as I suspected from the start. :-)

mia3mom wrote:If people could only vote for a certain number of entries, i wouldn't have allowed her to enter, either. That just wouldn't be fair. But in this circumstance, I agreed to let her enter.


Again, a responsible attitude that shows your maturity. :-)

mia3mom wrote: As daedalusknight pointed out, there are a lot of kid-like artists out there, and some of them are surviving reckoning after reckoning.


Indeed. There's a whole market of people who want that kind of art on their shirts. And ties. And greeting cards. Mugs especially. I see them all over the place. Not what I would wear, but it's clearly marketable.

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
mia3mom wrote:I have sensitive kids, so they're used to me screening stuff.


Hehh... better keep them away from the test tube baby shirt discussion thread. :-)

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
geekfactor12 wrote:...I've yet to see anything in this thread as something that seemed like an attack on the artist, which is why I would like more feedback on this.


I guess most of Adder's posts seemed like attacks on the artist to me. He repeatedly has said that he thinks that kids shouldn't be allowed to submit to the derby, that it lowers the standards of the derby, that it's a black eye for woot that this kid not only entered but got around fifty votes (higher than that now, thanks to Adder). If that isn't an attack, what exactly is it? If he were talking about old people, or people of any recognizable ethnic or other minority group, it simply wouldn't be tolerated, but because he's talking about kids, it isn't a prejudiced attack? I think it has to be.

These comments all seem to be pretty harsh, and all directed toward the artist.

AdderXYU wrote:...It's the biggest black eye woot has as a contest...what legit designer would find woot, look at the derby, and consider it worth designing for if they found a shirt designed by a ten year old (which looks like it was designed by a ten year old) in the hotness? ...


AdderXYU wrote: ...i've seen monkeys paint, and the fact that they're monkeys doesn't make me want to buy it.


AdderXYU wrote:i can't believe I'm seriously arguing about a 10-year-old's design being wearable or not. Woot has seriously reached a new low.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Josephus wrote:The adult designers you are so protective of, Adder, have submitted 34 entries with text in them, and at least 2 'boob' shirts,
19 without including the year in the title, and one of whom actually submitted shirts for two different years, apparently figuring no-one would notice.
This doesn't include all of the shirts rejected for too many colors, or using obviously copyrighted things or directly pixel for pixel copied artwork, or traced artwork.

These designers need reading lessons, and/or to attempt to comprehend what they've read. They don't need to be protected from one 10 year old kid.

...and you've decided to choose a 10 year old kid as your target of the week. nice work.



I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there are differences in the quality of work among the adult designers, just as there are among the more youthful ones. I don't think that excluding kids younger than, what, 16? is that old enough for you?
anyway, I don't really think that excluding the few kids that might be interested in submitting designs is going to affect the more adult designers in any way. They will continue to complain about how really crappy shirts win every week, and how woot is never going to be a quality place, all because of some other issue- clipart, or traced images, or whatever.


You fail to make a very important distinction in all this, though... this is successful only because it's done by a kid. decomposition wasn't successful because Luke was 16, it was successful because it was a wearable design. Your daughter's work isn't successful because she's a kid, it's successful because she can draw, and draws cute. People LOVE cute. This is not wearable or drawn well (and is arguably not cute). I don't like this sort of thing from adults either, but the adults don't get pity votes. That is my issue. A ten year old putting up something that would get rejected by Highlights isn't the issue. Look further. This is a bad design, undeniably so without bias, and it is doing better than plenty of GOOD designs. I don't care about the boob designs, the idiots who can't follow simple no text rules... that all gets rejected, and it's hilarious when it does. This is on topic, but so far off quality. Most people who enter low quality don't see 25, let alone 50. This has surpassed both because it's a kid. And a design like this succeeding DOES have repercussions. You just may never see them, outside of in the form of more and more bad shirts from otherwise great artists.

Also, way to claim ageism about a post or two above this. I'm being crapart-ist. If a Black Arab pleasantly upbeat Woman submit this, it would still be bad. And people would say "this looks like a kid did it." Because it does. Would they be ageist, too? Would they be racist, homophobic, sexist, for hating a bad design? No. You're defending bad designs, and nothing more.

mia3mom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages mia3mom
dontwantaname wrote:
<a lot of great stuff>
Keep it out of the thread that the child should be able to read.
It goes back to the old "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing."


thank you, Ms. Name, for your support as a mod. I respect the right of people to write things with which I disagree, even if I am saddened by some of the comments. I'm very glad that we had pre-arranged that I would be a filter for any comments on her entry. *phew*!

I *really* appreciate the constructive criticism offered - that will definitely help her grow as an artist. In general, she has a better flair for color and design than many people we know (including me), and this is a learning experience. She needs better tools, experience, and time before she submits another entry.

Today's posts were interesting reading, at least. Nothing dull.

& the Gaggle of Girls; so many shirts, so little space in the dresser!

peppersabaddog


quality posts: 1 Private Messages peppersabaddog
mia3mom wrote:thank you, Ms. Name, for your support as a mod. I respect the right of people to write things with which I disagree, even if I am saddened by some of the comments. I'm very glad that we had pre-arranged that I would be a filter for any comments on her entry. *phew*!

I *really* appreciate the constructive criticism offered - that will definitely help her grow as an artist. In general, she has a better flair for color and design than many people we know (including me), and this is a learning experience. She needs better tools, experience, and time before she submits another entry.

Today's posts were interesting reading, at least. Nothing dull.





props to you as a mom for filtering the *stuff* that has appeared here.
just an FYI, there are children's contests where these entries would be safe from this lunacy. im not saying kids shouldnt enter here in any way, but perhaps starting in a child friendly atmosphere would be better suited for these designs. people that vote and buy are moms and kids, this might get you a better chance to print anyway.

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
AttilaTheMom wrote: With more than 30 derbies to date, I think we can safely say that vitriolic bashing hasn't had the desired effect of limiting the derby to 'good' designs. So maybe we should try something different now? Maybe offering thoughtful and polite suggestions would improve the overall quality of submitted designs?


I completely agree. And I seem to be making small progress in that area. I've made polite comments about several shirts that I saw were in need of improvement or removal. So far it seems that several people have responded well to the comments, including even removing their shirt designs before Woot had a chance to reject them. I call that a positive step towards a better derby. I even see some other commenters following my comment patterns with similar sucesses (feel free to cut and paste like a form letter, I don't mind).

If your goal is to make this a better derby, please join in. Obviously, not everyone will respond well to polite requests. Some folks are just her to provoke a negative reaction. When you give them that reaction it is, as they say, feeding the trolls. Let's do what we can to starve them out, yes?

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
dontwantaname wrote:I vote for, would buy and wear Laura's shirts because they are as good as the adults.
I voted for and would buy and wear M2MLA2's shirt because it has the innocience and beauty that only a child has.

You guys are just lucky that there are no mod links on these threads , or you would be on a "play nice" probation.

Playing nice is something you learn in kindergarten. Some of you must have forgotten.

Art should convey a feeling and this shirt does. It reminds me of being a child on a summer night looking at the moon and stars and wondering what it was like up there.
It conveys some of the best parts of being a child.

Laura's dragons, although they could have been drawn by an adult, still have the innocence and sweetness of a child. I showed one to my 21 year old son, and he would wear it too.

It is sad that an adult would be upset that a child was doing better then he was.


As the only mom mod (although we have an aunt mod) I'm going to view negitive comments posted in the thread of any child's shirt as an attack.
There are other threads that you can use to say stuff like this.
Keep it out of the thread that the child should be able to read.
It goes back to the old "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.

You can express your view, but not here. Use the contest thread.



W_T_F is a play nice probation?

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
artulo wrote:Why on earth does this have sixty-something votes? Discouraging, indeed.


Partly because some people like childlike art on shirts.

Partly because when people make mean comments about a shirt it tends to drive up the vote count. The more heated discussion there is about a shirt... the more arguing... the better it tends to do.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

AdderXYU wrote:Is it a case of moderation power abuse if they say something that requires negative comment? i can't reply to this apparently without getting probation.

These threads are FOR THE ENTRIES!!!! Where else are we supposed to express views if not here???? It's an attack on a child but not on an adult? It'd be the same shirt!!!!!!! And "Play Nice" probations? Yes, you learn that in Kindergarten, but once you get into the adult world you grow some damn thicker skin and accept that the real world doesn't have that rule. This is a bad entry, and it will be a bad entry forever, and if daring to say that is "not playing nice," probate the entire damn board. If a child is going to enter this contest, they need to be treated as an adult, like the rest of us. That means being honest, that means accepting that art isn't suddenly better if you drop the age of the artist, and that means voting for the design, not the artist. You would not be voting for this if i submit it. Why? Because it's unwearable without knowing a kid made it. Do you vote for every MS Paint design? No? Well, I guess you would if it was posted in EBW, but otherwise, I'm certain this is the only one you've voted on

Be a mod. That means being unbiased. Viewing these posts as attacks, any more so than if they were made to someone who was an adult, is not unbiased unless you view ALL these sorts of posts as attacks, no matter who the artist is, and WHOOPS there goes the whole board. If you're unable to be impartial, you don't deserve the title.


You can say it here. You can start a thread in world of woot shirts and argue your point all you want.
I found the post in the thread for that shirt.
I have no problem with it being here.

As a mom I have a problem with fact you posted the comment back in the thread for the shirt when you knew it was a child.
The same post to an adult wouldn't have bothered me.









WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

daedalusknight


quality posts: 1 Private Messages daedalusknight
jenny78 wrote:I think EVERYONE would have a pretty good idea that this was drawn by a child even if the theme wasn't the year you were born. C'mon. Say it was for an outer space themed derby, we'd all know it was drawn by a child. If not, then everyone would berate the adult that had the audacity to enter such a 'childish' design, and it would have gotten rejected for the use of text.


I think you're right. But, like I said before, I know a guy in the greeting card business who makes child-like art for a living. He's in his mid-thirties. He's very convincing. And he sells a lot of cards.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
dontwantaname wrote:You can say it here. You can start a thread in world of woot shirts and argue your point all you want.
I found the post in the thread for that shirt.
I have no problem with it being here.

As a mom I have a problem with fact you posted the comment back in the thread for the shirt when you knew it was a child.
The same post to an adult wouldn't have bothered me.


So I should post all derby related items, such as comments on individual shirts, in world of woot shirts, not in the threads the staff provided to talk about individual shirts?

Also, you're made of bias. A kid came to an adult forum. They are getting an adult forum experience. Make up rules with your own kids, not with adults.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

snarkygal wrote:W_T_F is a play nice probation?



The probation I've given out for general nastiness.
I'm sure there is an official way of phrasing it.
Woot would like to be a friendly, safe for work environment.

WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

AdderXYU wrote:So I should post all derby related items, such as comments on individual shirts, in world of woot shirts, not in the threads the staff provided to talk about individual shirts?


What did it really have to do with the shirt?
Your complaint was it was a child.
The child didn't need to read it. You could say it here, you can start a thread, you can gripe directly to Joel.
That entire thread turned into a debate.

As a non artist, I liked the shirt. It had a childlike quality and it was drawn by a child, not an adult drawing badly.

There are plenty of poorly drawn shirts in the contest....go pick on those adults.


WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

AdderXYU wrote:So I should post all derby related items, such as comments on individual shirts, in world of woot shirts, not in the threads the staff provided to talk about individual shirts?

Also, you're made of bias. A kid came to an adult forum. They are getting an adult forum experience. Make up rules with your own kids, not with adults.


An adult forum that is suppose to be PG13. Not aimed towards kids, but kid friendly.

WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

bluchez


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bluchez
dontwantaname wrote:You can say it here. You can start a thread in world of woot shirts and argue your point all you want.
I found the post in the thread for that shirt.
I have no problem with it being here.

As a mom I have a problem with fact you posted the comment back in the thread for the shirt when you knew it was a child.
The same post to an adult wouldn't have bothered me.


I am curious about this. I made a constructive post but referred to the artwork as childlike and critiqued the color choices, etc. Does this cross the new "please play nice in a kid's tshirt thread" boundary?

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
dontwantaname wrote:The probation I've given out for general nastiness.
I'm sure there is an official way of phrasing it.
Woot would like to be a friendly, safe for work environment.


That is sooo vague. I truely believe personalities come into play into this. If a mod likes somebody, they get wider berth. General nastiness is not a rule. THIS PLACE IS GETTING SUCKIER BY THE MINUTE.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
dontwantaname wrote:What did it really have to do with the shirt?
Your complaint was it was a child.
The child didn't need to read it. You could say it here, you can start a thread, you can gripe directly to Joel.
That entire thread turned into a debate.

As a non artist, I liked the shirt. It had a childlike quality and it was drawn by a child, not an adult drawing badly.

There are plenty of poorly drawn shirts in the contest....go pick on those adults.


You realize "here" is where all the comments on the individual shirt pages go, right?

My complaint isn't that it's a child. There's another child shirt in this derby, but no one is voting for it. why? Because it's bad and done by a child. This one got a plug about being done by a kid, which got people voting for it. It is a bad design getting votes because it's a child. I don't mind that it's a bad design. I don't care who submits. But most poorly drawn shirts, at least this level of bad, don't get votes. This is, and only because it's done by a kid. I have no gripe with the kid or the mom. I have a gripe with the people who somehow think a shirt that they'd have passed by if it was by an adult is suddenly worth more from a kid. It's not. I am picking on adults. Adults who don't get what the derby's about. Adults who are, as I've said before, making more and more good artists avoid this site every week they do something like this. Get offended that I'm attacking your taste, not that I'm attacking a kid. The kid can't help it. Adults can.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
snarkygal wrote:That is sooo vague. I truely believe personalities come into play into this. If a mod likes somebody, they get wider berth. General nastiness is not a rule. THIS PLACE IS GETTING SUCKIER BY THE MINUTE.


A pretty strict rule they have is the one for "mod-baiting". That's a Gatzby rule, and is probation city.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Josephus wrote:A pretty strict rule they have is the one for "mod-baiting". That's a Gatzby rule, and is probation city.


What happens when the mod is out of line? As I see it, this is actually a mod baiting people.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

peppersabaddog wrote:you dont seem to understand that the comment thread and the individual shirt thread are the same thing.
also; friendly, i loled.
so we can only say nice things? i hope to god no one submits anything less than perfent from this point on, because no one is allowed to have a dissenting opinion of anything according to you and thats girraffe like... yeah i typed it out myself.... this isnt 1984 and people are allowed to voice opinions however they see fit, as long as it isnt breaking the REAL rules. you are not a god, nor are you my mother. having mod privlidges does not grant you supreme authority of my thoughts or anyone else's. if you want to be extreme in your discretionary rights do so with your own children, not with a forum of mainly adults. if a parent brings their child in these forums it should be with the knowledge that this is the internet for gods sake, not sesame street.


There are tons of reports for comments made on shirt that are out of line. Yes, you can get probation for that, especially when it turns into personal attacks.
I call them play nice probation's.

For goodness sakes, it is a young kid.
The shirt was colorful and not all that bad. Made me smile.
She shouldn't be reading all this stuff, but why post the entire debate about kids on her shirts thread?

The only probation's I've ever given out on shirt were for posts that people reported. Usually more than one person.


I posted my view on the thread for that one shirt. If those comments get posted here too....well I don't read the shirt threads, they are too long, so I didn't realize it. I was only talking about that one shirt.

I


WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
dontwantaname wrote:There are tons of reports for comments made on shirt that are out of line. Yes, you can get probation for that, espically when it turns into personal attacks.
I call them play nice probations.

For goodness sakes, it is a young kid.
The shirt was colorful and not all that bad. Made me smile.
She shouldn't be reading all this stuff, but why post the entire debate about kids on her shirts thread?

The only probations I've ever given out on shirt were for posts that people reported. Usually more than one person.


I posted my view on the thread for that one shirt. If those comments get posted here too....well I don't read the shirt threads, they are too long, so I didn't realize it. I was only talking about that one shirt.

I


You're arguing that your opinion is better than ours. Awesome.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
AdderXYU wrote:...

My complaint isn't that it's a child...


any more, I guess you mean, 'cause before, you were saying that kids shouldn't be allowed in the derby, just because they're kids:

AdderXYU wrote:Look, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for daring to criticize a child's entry, but there should not be child's entries in the derby...


AdderXYU wrote:...I can't see myself feeling bad to lose one artist talented beyond her years for the sake of blocking more of this sort of thing.
<<referring to Laura


From what I've seen in your comments, Adder, you just aren't sure what you think about this. On the one hand, at first, you were clearly stating that kids shouldn't be in the derby. But then you started talking about how you wouldn't mind kids being here if they were great, Threadless quality designers.

Now, you seem to be suggesting that it's the voters who ought to get their heads straight, and vote for the good designs, regardless of who entered them, and that you really don't have any bad feelings about this kid or her design at all, except that the doofus voters are voting for her design, and by doing so they are continuing the slide into awfulness that the derby is apparently on.

So, finally, at this point, I really have NO idea whether I agree with you or disagree with you. I think that the design and the comments posted by the mom and the designer caught on at first because it was just a sweet story, near the end of the derby, when most of the people who check out the forums had already voted for their favorites, and it got a little ride in the hotness. Then, you got a hold of it and boom! 70 votes or so! Probably the next entry she submits will be more down to earth in its votes, and this will all be forgotten.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Josephus wrote:<<referring to Laura


From what I've seen in your comments, Adder, you just aren't sure what you think about this. On the one hand, at first, you were clearly stating that kids shouldn't be in the derby. But then you started talking about how you wouldn't mind kids being here if they were great, Threadless quality designers.

Now, you seem to be suggesting that it's the voters who ought to get their heads straight, and vote for the good designs, regardless of who entered them, and that you really don't have any bad feelings about this kid or her design at all, except that the doofus voters are voting for her design, and by doing so they are continuing the slide into awfulness that the derby is apparently on.

So, finally, at this point, I really have NO idea whether I agree with you or disagree with you. I think that the design and the comments posted by the mom and the designer caught on at first because it was just a sweet story, near the end of the derby, when most of the people who check out the forums had already voted for their favorites, and it got a little ride in the hotness. Then, you got a hold of it and boom! 70 votes or so! Probably the next entry she submits will be more down to earth in its votes, and this will all be forgotten.


I dont think any of those options is so bad. I see no reason to need bad designers, kid designers, or moron voters.

I hope you and Name enjoyed unloading your copious extra votes on this brilliant shirt, the sort of which we should cherish and wish for more of.
(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
Josephus wrote:<<referring to Laura


From what I've seen in your comments, Adder, you just aren't sure what you think about this. On the one hand, at first, you were clearly stating that kids shouldn't be in the derby. But then you started talking about how you wouldn't mind kids being here if they were great, Threadless quality designers.

Now, you seem to be suggesting that it's the voters who ought to get their heads straight, and vote for the good designs, regardless of who entered them, and that you really don't have any bad feelings about this kid or her design at all, except that the doofus voters are voting for her design, and by doing so they are continuing the slide into awfulness that the derby is apparently on.

So, finally, at this point, I really have NO idea whether I agree with you or disagree with you. I think that the design and the comments posted by the mom and the designer caught on at first because it was just a sweet story, near the end of the derby, when most of the people who check out the forums had already voted for their favorites, and it got a little ride in the hotness. Then, you got a hold of it and boom! 70 votes or so! Probably the next entry she submits will be more down to earth in its votes, and this will all be forgotten.


Then why must you put yourself in this argument? It really didn't concern you at all.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

snarkygal wrote:That is sooo vague. I truely believe personalities come into play into this. If a mod likes somebody, they get wider berth. General nastiness is not a rule. THIS PLACE IS GETTING SUCKIER BY THE MINUTE.


Oh, come on, it isn't that vague.
When there are 5 reports on the same post, or the same person, it isn't personal.


Yeah, this is just because the thread for a young child's shirt became a battleground or sorts.

I didn't deal with this with my kids. My kids grew up when there was only one computer in the house, so it wasn't an issue. My youngest is 21.

If it is bias that a mom would go defend a kid I don't know....well deal with it.
I was only talking about posts made in a shirt thread where we know a child made the shirt. Not the general world of shirtwoot.





WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
snarkygal wrote:Then why must you put yourself in this argument? It really didn't concern you at all.


Oh, gee, maybe the fact that Adder was proposing that kids be banned? and that I have a 12 year old daughter that fairly often submits designs? Who belongs in this discussion if not me?

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

AdderXYU wrote:You realize "here" is where all the comments on the individual shirt pages go, right?

My complaint isn't that it's a child. There's another child shirt in this derby, but no one is voting for it. why? Because it's bad and done by a child. This one got a plug about being done by a kid, which got people voting for it. It is a bad design getting votes because it's a child. I don't mind that it's a bad design. I don't care who submits. But most poorly drawn shirts, at least this level of bad, don't get votes. This is, and only because it's done by a kid. I have no gripe with the kid or the mom. I have a gripe with the people who somehow think a shirt that they'd have passed by if it was by an adult is suddenly worth more from a kid. It's not. I am picking on adults. Adults who don't get what the derby's about. Adults who are, as I've said before, making more and more good artists avoid this site every week they do something like this. Get offended that I'm attacking your taste, not that I'm attacking a kid. The kid can't help it. Adults can.



Actually I didn't realize that the post went here too. But post here don't go there, unless woot is a mind reader and knows which shirt we are talking about.

Like I said, it bothered me that the posts were there, where the kid would read them.
Your posts would not be considered, by me, to be out of line if it wasn't a child.
Plus, just to get you guys more upset....I agree, a child should be allowed to read this large thread, so that is why I wouldn't care if the posts were just here.

I'm now going to check and see what is back in the shirt thread. If this post is there I am going to think the woot computer is named Hal!



WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

dontwantaname wrote:Actually I didn't realize that the post went here too. But post here don't go there, unless woot is a mind reader and knows which shirt we are talking about.

Like I said, it bothered me that the posts were there, where the kid would read them.
Your posts would not be considered, by me, to be out of line if it wasn't a child.
Plus, just to get you guys more upset....I agree, a child should be allowed to read this large thread, so that is why I wouldn't care if the posts were just here.

I'm now going to check and see what is back in the shirt thread. If this post is there I am going to think the woot computer is named Hal!



Wow, it is.
How did they do that?

So, in the future, if it is a kid, ignore them and hope it doesn't win.

WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
dontwantaname wrote:Wow, it is.
How did they do that?

So, in the future, if it is a kid, ignore them and hope it doesn't win.


This sounds like great advice. If a kid enters again, we should all ignore them and hope they don't win.

You go first

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
AdderXYU wrote:I'd say your 12 year old daughter does. Unless you believe your work is more representative?


My 12 year old daughter is busy sleeping. She can certainly speak for herself, as she did earlier, but she has more important things to do right now. By the way, I would certainly not shield her from the comments made on woot, especially about her designs.I think the lessons she will learn from seeing the unvarnished harshness here will, in the long run, help her deal with life in high school and in adulthood. She is not going to grow up unaware of the real world, and in the context of things that she is personally involved in is a far better way for her to learn than being told about it.

I do think that everyone ought to be able to enter, especially her.
I also think that the voters, by and large, are poor at picking the best shirts. Of course, I think woot is also poor at picking the best shirts, so I don't see how taking it out of the voters' hands is really going to help much.

bluchez


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bluchez
dontwantaname wrote:Wow, it is.
How did they do that?

So, in the future, if it is a kid, ignore them and hope it doesn't win.


Just for the record, I lied about my birth year in my designs. I'm actually 9. Finally, noone is allowed to criticize me. MUHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
bluchez wrote:Just for the record, I lied about my birth year in my designs. I'm actually 9. Finally, noone is allowed to criticize me. MUHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA


well, except Adder. ;^)

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Josephus wrote:

I do think that everyone ought to be able to enter, especially her.
I also think that the voters, by and large, are poor at picking the best shirts. Of course, I think woot is also poor at picking the best shirts, so I don't see how taking it out of the voters' hands is really going to help much.


For the umpteenth time, woot picks bad shirts largely because they can't get most good designers to offload good designs. Know why? Because woot's derbies are jokes.

I'd love it if someone like jimiyo, or someone else who has had extensive experience with real designers, could back me up on this. It just seems so obvious.

Josephus


quality posts: 25 Private Messages Josephus
AdderXYU wrote:For the umpteenth time, woot picks bad shirts largely because they can't get most good designers to offload good designs. Know why? Because woot's derbies are jokes.

I'd love it if someone like jimiyo, or someone else who has had extensive experience with real designers, could back me up on this. It just seems so obvious.


We agree completely.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
I don't believe that a child's submission receiving some votes will drive away good designers. Even when bad designs get put up for sale, I don't think most designers will be put off by that, though it may seem a bit discouraging. I think that the biggest problem new designers have with woot is the environment. It's threads like this that drive away new talent.

Adder, you made the comment that this design is unwearable. I thus find this comment of yours quite hypocritical:


AdderXYU wrote:You're arguing that your opinion is better than ours. Awesome.



Your suggestion that this design is unwearable is an OPINION. Frankly, I agree - I wouldn't wear this. But everyone has different tastes - Adder, who are you to say that other people can't vote for this if they want to? You are assuming that all the votes were made in pity.

Some people voted on this because it was designed by a 10 year old - I disagree with this because I think designs should be judged by their merit alone, independent of the designer. Some people voted on this because of the senseless argument this thread has degenerated into - I disagree with this too because it serves no purpose but to underscore that democracy doesn't always work. I am also positive that some people voted for this design simply because they liked it, would buy it, and would wear it.

This was a child's submission. It was sent in for kicks, and I doubt that there was any expectation of it winning. What was the point in filling this thread with nasty comments and bitter insults? Adder, you stated your feelings on the matter. All was well and good. Some people disagreed with you. Everything was still fine. And then everything snowballed and nobody was willing to just stop and say "we disagree. Oh well."

To that end, I think that it's wonderful how so many people here have stepped up to defend the young designer. But honestly, all you're doing is perpetuating an argument that will never end. These shirt comment threads are supposed to be for encouragement, praise and constructive criticism, and maybe the ocassional pithy joke. Instead, your combined vehemence has turned this thread into an ugly pit of insults and slander. I've seen Adder spew out his fair share of unwarranted drivel, but he hasn't been alone in that.

On the comments by dontwantaname - I understand that you feel that comments such as these shouldn't be on a kid's shirt, but I think it would be wrong to give this design special treatment simply because the artwork is a child's. This is a contest and, as long as submissions follow the rules, everyone is elligible and everyone is equal, in opportunity if not in skill.

That said, I feel that certain comments here have stepped across the line. I don't know if anybody deserves to be put on probation or if any comments should be deleted. I just think that these comments should be treated the same as comments on any other shirt. It is unfortunate that the kid can't read comments on her shirt without them being filtered by her mom, but given this community, that is how it should be. This design should be treated as any other design, regardless of the age of the designer. Comments should be treated the same as well, regardless of the shirt on which the comments are made.


And I'll reiterate my comment on this:

AdderXYU wrote:For the umpteenth time, woot picks bad shirts largely because they can't get most good designers to offload good designs. Know why? Because woot's derbies are jokes.

I'd love it if someone like jimiyo, or someone else who has had extensive experience with real designers, could back me up on this. It just seems so obvious.


The derbies may be part of the problem, but so are the ridiculous flame wars that crop up here. If someone makes a tiny submission error or accidentally breaks a rule, it seems like everyone is jumping down their throat. Again - THIS was a child's submission made and submitted for fun. You've turned it into a circus. In any case, what does the derby have to do with daily submissions?

Anyway, it's probably too much to hope for, but could everyone just close their eyes, take a big deep breath and let this whole mess go?

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

AdderXYU wrote:This sounds like great advice. If a kid enters again, we should all ignore them and hope they don't win.

You go first



Since all the post go back to the original shirt thread, the parents are responsible to make sure the kid doesn't see it.

But since you know that, why start? Give the kid some tips and move on.

If the kid wins, blame it on the voting. We have voted in some bad shirts in the past.

Just remember, if we are sure it is a child, be gentle. I'm talking young kids....most of the teenagers can take care of themselves.

Now go argue with yourselves. I have two rats looking at me because they know they get fed at 1am and it is 1:30 now.
Wait till they find out there is nothing exciting tonight. Just some uncooked oatmeal , a grape and a baby carrot.


Every comment gets dumped into one thread? That is nuts.

WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

dontwantaname


quality posts: 13 Private Messages dontwantaname

Volunteer Moderator

eHalcyon wrote:I don't believe that a child's submission receiving some votes will drive away good designers. Even when bad designs get put up for sale, I don't think most designers will be put off by that, though it may seem a bit discouraging. I think that the biggest problem new designers have with woot is the environment. It's threads like this that drive away new talent.

Adder, you made the comment that this design is unwearable. I thus find this comment of yours quite hypocritical:




The derbies may be part of the problem, but so are the ridiculous flame wars that crop up here. If someone makes a tiny submission error or accidentally breaks a rule, it seems like everyone is jumping down their throat. Again - THIS was a child's submission made and submitted for fun. You've turned it into a circus. In any case, what does the derby have to do with daily submissions?

Anyway, it's probably too much to hope for, but could everyone just close their eyes, take a big deep breath and let this whole mess go?


Watch out, if you make that much sense, they might ask you to be a mod!

eHalcyon is right.
Now everyone give up and go to sleep!

WE LURV YOU TOO! Dork!!!
No greater love is lost than that not shared.

peppersabaddog


quality posts: 1 Private Messages peppersabaddog
dontwantaname wrote:Watch out, if you make that much sense, they might ask you to be a mod!

eHalcyon is right.
Now everyone give up and go to sleep!




strange, its the same thing i said, only nicer.


just remember people:
the people that vote for woot shirts vote for president too.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
eHalcyon wrote:I don't believe that a child's submission receiving some votes will drive away good designers. Even when bad designs get put up for sale, I don't think most designers will be put off by that, though it may seem a bit discouraging. I think that the biggest problem new designers have with woot is the environment. It's threads like this that drive away new talent.


then you are wrong.

Adder, you made the comment that this design is unwearable. I thus find this comment of yours quite hypocritical:


I'm not a mod threatening probations for disagreeing with my opinion. DWAN is. Which I still feel is a pretty poor stance for a mod to take.

The derbies may be part of the problem, but so are the ridiculous flame wars that crop up here. If someone makes a tiny submission error or accidentally breaks a rule, it seems like everyone is jumping down their throat.


If you cannot read a contest's rules before entering it, you deserve this. Simple reading. Even the 10 year old followed the submission guidelines.

In any case, what does the derby have to do with daily submissions?


Derby success gives potential designers an idea of what woot is looking for. If they send in dailies, they will most often be dailies that fit the woot mold... something mediocre, something skully or memey, etc. These artists don't enter derbies because they don't want to waste the time against a tasteless crowd. They give their worst work day after day because they don't want to waste a killer one on a site where their work won't even exist more than a week. They submit designs that failed elsewhere because they know woot will take anything. People voting for such mediocre work leads designers to work just that hard when submitting to woot. It leads plenty of good designers to take derby breaks out of frustration. These are real issues in this site. So is the reaction from a MODERATOR. Mods with that kind of partiality are not healthy for a community... it just makes people too scared to be themselves. Even one stupid little derby shirt can pull up the dark, disgusting underbelly, and thats why we need to be vigilant. Again, woot themselves have begged us to police the derbies ourselves. If I'm one of the few willing to do that, and I'm constantly harassed for it, that's fine.

Anyway, it's probably too much to hope for, but could everyone just close their eyes, take a big deep breath and let this whole mess go?


this line doesn't work if you've just made a huge post trying to have the last word.

jimiyo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jimiyo
AdderXYU wrote:For the umpteenth time, woot picks bad shirts largely because they can't get most good designers to offload good designs. Know why? Because woot's derbies are jokes.

I'd love it if someone like jimiyo, or someone else who has had extensive experience with real designers, could back me up on this. It just seems so obvious.


Woot derbies are hit and miss. I suppose if I were to politik, and consistently submit, I would eventually start winning derbies often, but Im not particular to how the woot audience treats good artist. They seem to have a love hate relationship with them. In a second they seem to turn on you. Ive seen Cho's work get criticized or some sassy chimpanzee come in and threadcrap.. it seemed to happen every week. Of course he wins, cause there still enough people who admire his work, but I have to tell you, I only got a little bit of it, and I was amazed at how disdainful the woot audience is, and how discouraging it is.

I get the feeling theres a bunch of trolls that are allowed to plunder around and be meanies without any sort of punishment.

After I stopped submitting I made some small comment about how I didnt like someones shoddy ceiling cat,

(cause we all know... Ceiling Cat should be done with the utmost quality so's not to anger him, he's up there, waiting if you anger him, to use his sharp claws, and you know when hes looking down at you... that wouldnt be a good time for him to extract revenge.)

and someone, wait no, ExpletiveDeleted, called me a jerk. Sup with that? So other people can go around and be meanies but Im held to a higher standard?

Really, I just needed to step back from the Derby cause it was too time consuming for the payout and abuse. But $1000 aint bad...

But I dont understand the quality of the Dailies. Woot cant be getting that many crappy designs for them not to be able to choose something awesome. I dunno. $1000 aint bad for doing almost WHATEVER you want to do...

Erm... apparently theres some mentally infatuated kid who was helped by his parents to submit a design? I havent read all the details... That's cool... I mean, just as long as it doesnt win, unless its some killer crazy ass autistic kid who can draw a mean Joe Perry ripping up on a guitar, or a David Lee Roth like kicking up in the air like in Jump video! now THAT... done by an austitic kid would rOCK the House and should win.

But then you know if he kept on coming back and winning, eventually they would turn on him too. Call him infatuated or something.

But the first few wins, let the giraffe win a few.

Woot audience will turn. I guarantee.

eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
AdderXYU wrote:then you are wrong.


Yeah, thanks for letting others have opinions. You seem to think that your opinion is a fact. How could you possibly know how many designers have taken a look at these sorts of comments and just thought to themselves "no thanks" and walked away?


I'm not a mod threatening probations for disagreeing with my opinion. DWAN is. Which I still feel is a pretty poor stance for a mod to take.


Okay, perhaps I missed it, but I never saw a comment like that. She wasn't against your difference of opinion - she was against the inflammatory and unduly harsh delivery of that opinion. And that doesn't change the hypocrisy of that comment of yours. The fact that you're not a mod doesn't make it ok to be hypocritical.


If you cannot read a contest's rules before entering it, you deserve this. Simple reading. Even the 10 year old followed the submission guidelines.


It doesn't mean you have to be rude about it. Is civility really such an undesirable trait to you? The problem with being a jerk to everyone who makes a stupid mistake is that you end up being a jerk to those who make legitimate mistakes, i.e. if someone absolutely new reads the official rules and submits a flying penguin design. The banning of flying penguins is not mentioned on any official page - it's a legitimate mistake. But if people continually act in an elitist manner, they start to treat new people with contempt.


Derby success gives potential designers an idea of what woot is looking for. If they send in dailies, they will most often be dailies that fit the woot mold... something mediocre, something skully or memey, etc. These artists don't enter derbies because they don't want to waste the time against a tasteless crowd. They give their worst work day after day because they don't want to waste a killer one on a site where their work won't even exist more than a week. They submit designs that failed elsewhere because they know woot will take anything. People voting for such mediocre work leads designers to work just that hard when submitting to woot. It leads plenty of good designers to take derby breaks out of frustration.


For every mediocre piece that has been put on sale, I've seen another that is creative, fresh and well-executed. Most of the top selling shirts are examples. If you disagree with that, it's fine, but your opinion is worth no more than my own or that of anybody else on this site. If potential designers decide to submit their worst as a daily, I would blame that on the designers rather than the derbies. The majority of unpopular daily submissions I've seen do not compare in the slightest to derby winners.


These are real issues in this site. So is the reaction from a MODERATOR. Mods with that kind of partiality are not healthy for a community... it just makes people too scared to be themselves.


I've already commented on DWAN's reaction and her suggestion that a kid's shirt be given less severe comments than others'. I agreed with you. But although she showed some partiality, it doesn't make the worst of these comments any less probation-worthy.


Even one stupid little derby shirt can pull up the dark, disgusting underbelly, and thats why we need to be vigilant.


My point exactly. This design was one little derby shirt, but everyone is just raging and flaming and going on and on. I'm no better - here I am responding to you, and doubtless I will receive another lengthy reply, and the cycle I tried to end will go on and on simply because I don't want my opinion misrepresented - and you probably feel the same way.

Adder, I feel that you made some very strong points. But your less-than-cordial manner and outright verbal abuse of people undermines your arguments! I find myself arguing against you when I actually agreed with most of your initial comments. Please, continue shining your light on all the little problems with woot and the derbies and the submissions and the people, but do it without pulling up that dark, disgusting underbelly of yours. You can continue being the crusader you are without offending everyone in sight - just offend most of them!


Again, woot themselves have begged us to police the derbies ourselves. If I'm one of the few willing to do that, and I'm constantly harassed for it, that's fine.


Woot may have asked the users to police the derbies, but they did not ask us to form militias or angry mobs. They didn't ask us to hurl insults at each other, start little wars or make mountains out of molehills, as has been done with this shirt designed by a young girl. Plenty of people are policing the derbies - the evidence is right here in this thread. Many people - I included - have been trying to step in and end this farce. Unfortunately, we all have simply been dragged into it, further escalating the problem. And I am sorry if you feel harassed, but nothing said against you has been any worse than the comments you yourself have made. Many of the most harassing comments I've read have been yours, actually.


this line doesn't work if you've just made a huge post trying to have the last word.


You think the worst of me. I wasn't trying to get the last word in, Adder. I was trying to mediate. Sorry, I'm a stereotypical Canadian like that. I was trying to show that both sides had valid points and that this whole thread exploded because nobody was willing to just stop and take the high road.

I was trying to be impartial. If it seemed like I was focusing on you, I apologize - you're just one of the most vocal (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). But surely you must admit that this has gotten out of hand, and almost everyone who has participated in this conversation has played a part in it.

Edit: I read over my replies and some of them seem a bit harsh to me. I apologize for any undue snappiness - it's late and I wrote two final exams today.




jimiyo wrote:...Im not particular to how the woot audience treats good artist...
...I was amazed at how disdainful the woot audience is, and how discouraging it is.

I get the feeling theres a bunch of trolls that are allowed to plunder around and be bitches without any sort of punishment...

...Really, I just needed to step back from the Derby cause it was too time consuming for the payout and abuse...


It sounds to me like the woot audience is simply too harsh, both to designers and to others who are commenting. Like in this thread - if you read the beginning of this fiasco, Adder was perfectly civil. In fact, there was good dialog, good discussion. Then somebody criticized Adder for his opinion, and he defended himself in a similarly critical manner, and everyone went bananas.


and someone, wait no, ExpletiveDeleted, called me a jerk. Sup with that? So other people can go around and be bitches but Im held to a higher standard?


I think it's because you're so great and mighty that you need to set a proper example for the rest of us. And also, some people don't have a sense of humour. It's a serious medical condition.


But I dont understand the quality of the Dailies. Woot cant be getting that many crappy designs for them not to be able to choose something awesome. I dunno. $1000 aint bad for doing almost WHATEVER you want to do...


I have a question about that, actually. Does woot actually require that you have an extensive profile before choosing your daily? From the FAQ, I got the sense that only experienced designers could apply, and then woot would look at the designer's profile. If they liked what they saw, they would contact the designer, who would then design a daily. However, this seems contrary to what I've picked up from the general community. Can amateurs submit designs as dailies, or is it just that artists can apply and, if they are lucky enough, get commissioned to create a daily?

I'll see if I get an answer here, but if the question gets buried in an avalanche of diatribe and rhetoric I'll repost it later in a more appropriate forum.

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

jimiyo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jimiyo
eHalcyon wrote: Can amateurs submit designs as dailies, or is it just that artists can apply and, if they are lucky enough, get commissioned to create a daily?


well it seems that most of the dailies printed are linked to some kind of portfolio. i know the recent people have been printed elsewhere so i guess they are justified as a designer.

i suppose if you had a design you felt was good, you could always email them. 'artist' is a very loose term to me. although i feel they might have been getting quite a few submissions lately with the increase in payout. i know theres certainly been many designers on a website i frequent buzzing about it.

doesnt hurt try is my advice. you never get anything if you dont ask.

try it... at the next time you are at mcdonalds... Gimme some free fries Yo!

just like that. i bet if you asked 100 places, you would... be granted Free Fries.


eHalcyon


quality posts: 66 Private Messages eHalcyon
jimiyo wrote:try it... at the next time you are at mcdonalds... Gimme some free fries Yo!

just like that. i bet if you asked 100 places, you would... be granted Free Fries.


It might work better if you asked the same place 100 times.

(Unofficial) Derby Rules (outdated?)
Designing for the Derby (definitely outdated)
Tips for New Designers (always useful)

2thFairy


quality posts: 2 Private Messages 2thFairy
dontwantaname wrote:
I posted my view on the thread for that one shirt. If those comments get posted here too....well I don't read the shirt threads, they are too long, so I didn't realize it. I was only talking about that one shirt.


Soooo, not only are you biased, but you don't even know how the forums that you are so-called moderating work?

Schrobblehead


quality posts: 1 Private Messages Schrobblehead
Re: 1998 - The moon


I got bored about half-way throught this thread so I don't know half of what was said prior to this comment, but I think anyone who is discouraged by the votes a design gets lacks the sort of competitive spirit necessary to compete in a CONTEST. Designers just need to get over the fact that they are going to be overlooked sometimes while others get attention for reasons they won't agree with. If you play the game, you need to understand the game and quit whining about it.

I'm a Christmas Unicorn! In a uniform made of gold, with a billy-goat beard, and a sorcerer's shield, and mistletoe on my nose!

superspryte


quality posts: 21 Private Messages superspryte

Volunteer Moderator

snarkygal wrote:General nastiness is not a rule.

Actually, it is. Or at least it's in our moderation guidelines.

w: 7 | t.w: 1 | h.w: 1 | tg.w: 0 | sp.w: 0 | a.w: 0 | k.w: 0 | s.w: 15 | w.w: 15 | so.w: 2

jaf28


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jaf28
AdderXYU wrote:Anyone can technically submit their work to the bestlosers archive, so long as they achieve enough votes... Robert currently has the bar set at 50, to prove that you actually generated some reasonable interest. He selects the entries to feature in his front page post weekly, but any woot designer with an intention to sell and a design that scored well enough can submit to the galleries. This entry is close to that 50 mark last I saw.

i agree that all people who enjoy art should continue making it and honing their skills, but I think that they need to be able to rationalize their relative talent before entering in a contest, and be able to take the lumps that go with it (and believe me, what i've seen 'round here tells me that all artists, great and terrible, need thick skin). An aspiring artist this young is simply gearing themselves up for mockery in an outlet like this, when they should be practicing, drawing for fun, for themselves, and picking up skills as they get more practice at it. I in no way want to discourage a kid from being artistic, but there's a level that should be reached first, in either skill or maturity, and to have someone enter lacking in both is a detriment not only to the derby, but the aspiring artist himself (or herself in this case).


Oh please. Who are any of you to say that someone should or should not enter something in a CONTEST -- a contest that leaves voters to their own devises to vote for which ever entry they choose to vote for, and for whatever reason. You are in no position to say what guidelines someone should use to vote. Just because I vote for something that you don't vote for doesn't mean I'm wrong for voting for it. That goes for anyone's votes. And what's with all the "ooh poor children who are gearing themselves up for criticism" they are only facing criticism because of overly judgmental people like yourselves who need to point out flaws in everyone's work because you see yourself as fit to sit in judgment of everyone's art. Artistic talent is subjective and you are certainly in no position to determine what is and is not artistic to another human being. If you are afraid of the criticism hurting a young artist then you should stop the criticism. Besides you don't even know the person who may not give any credence to what you say even at a young age. It's pretty apparent that you have two cents input on what everyone does and it sure seems to lessen the value of anything you have to say in my opinion.

klswoot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages klswoot
Re: 1998 - The moon


Goodness! I'm been out with a cold and haven't been following the derby talk much at all this week. I just saw the discussion in your daughter's entry. I hope she isn't saddened by some of the hurtful comments. I actually really like her design and would purchase it on a tshirt for my child to wear. It has a wonderful childlike innocence to it....which is so popular in naive american folk art. Grandma Moses started painting at 68, my daughter sold her first painting at age 18 months. Alexandra Nechita "Little Picasso" sold paintings for tens of thousands of dollars when she was only 10 years old. Age shouldn't matter. Art is subjective. Folks are going to appreciate works differently, but I would hope that everyone can be respectful of one's efforts and remember that the derby does allow for amateur entries.

You, Mia, came to the derby having been a woot customer first. You have supported many of us by purchasing our shirts and have left great photos and opinions about the shirts that you have purchased. You got your 3 daughters involved in the shirt.woot excitement and have them as walking billboards for shirt.woot. I would imagine that you have also sent numerous emails to other family members showing off shirt.woot by also showing off your daughter's entry. This is priceless advertising for Shirt.Woot. For this, you should be thanked....not subjected to crticisim in the forums. The derby isn't for professionals only...it encourages submissions from amateurs and I enjoyed seeing your daughter's entry.

Anyway... I hope you will continue to support the other designers and continue to patronize shirt.woot. Your enthusiasm (prior to this) was contagious and it was so nice to see you and your daughters so excited about the shirts that they bought. I hope the drama around your daughter's entry doesn't sour you to the whole derby 'fun'.

Jewdave


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jewdave
Re: 1998 - The moon


Why don't we just ask Woot! to print the shirt and see if it sells. If it sells at least as many as there are votes for it then it is justified, if not, then at least it would have sold more than some of the recent Dailies...

-------------------------------------
40 x Shirt.Woot!
10 x Woot!
12 x Crap!
1 x Kids.Woot!
1 x Sport.Woot!
1 x Wine.Woot!
-------------------------------------

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