Derby #125: Birds
+798

Predator (v2!)

Predator (v2!)
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ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Predator (v2!)


I worked on the bird a bit more, hopefully you'll find it improved from the original. Thanks to everyone who supported the first submission of this design, and thanks for viewing the new one

Anyway, this design took forever to finish, and I hope you like the outcome

CLICK for Larger Version

MissFortune


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MissFortune
ramyb wrote:I worked on the bird a bit more, hopefully you'll find it improved from the original. Thanks to everyone who supported the first submission of this design, and I hope you all like the edits I've made


wow the wings look much improved.
(now my only quibble is the bird's tail though i can't place why)
no worries adder ought to be around soon...

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
Re: Predator (v2!)


Better, yay.

Draug


quality posts: 69 Private Messages Draug
Re: Predator (v2!)


The wing's a bit better, yes. :D
gmv

The enemy's gate is down.
Writers are people too! (Albeit strange ones.)
Save Poe! Reckon Nevermore! Or he'll be head-locked forevermore!

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
MissFortune wrote:wow the wings look much improved.
(now my only quibble is the bird's tail though i can't place why)
no worries adder ought to be around soon...


I know you mean to be pithy, but yeah. Pretty much.

I've made similar comments and watched them disappear, so perhaps if I use a link it'll be considered viable: This is still generic. It looks like a kdeuce piece. I'm not even saying that as an insult to kdeuce, surprisingly. It's literally Red Flew with a negative fill... white for black, color around, not on bird.

Forgive me if I remain unimpressed.

Hengehog


quality posts: 6 Private Messages Hengehog
Re: Predator (v2!)


I think the left wing is still a bit too long and out of proportion.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Predator (v2!)


@MissFortune, Xazothia & Draug- glad you like the changes I think the edits were definitely worth making, after the issues were pointed out to me I sketched over the original and saw how much better it looked and went with it. Deleted the original now.

TobiasAmaranth


quality posts: 24 Private Messages TobiasAmaranth
Re: Predator (v2!)


Really? A Ramy shirt? I'm legitimately surprised. And I have to say that it's a job well done on doing something different. I'm a bit of a raptor fan, so I have no problems with voting for this one. Definitely a wearable shirt, and it still is quite artistic.

At this point, I can't find anything that strikes me as 'off' about it. So on that note, good luck with this change of pace.

Support Fablefire: Follow her on -

MissFortune


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MissFortune
AdderXYU wrote:I know you mean to be pithy, but yeah. Pretty much.

I've made similar comments and watched them disappear, so perhaps if I use a link it'll be considered viable: This is still generic. It looks like a kdeuce piece. I'm not even saying that as an insult to kdeuce, surprisingly. It's literally Red Flew with a negative fill... white for black, color around, not on bird.

Forgive me if I remain unimpressed.


if the tail and talons were better defined and if the bird has some definition on the inside other than being a mass of black it would be much better.

no offense intended adder. i figured you could point out what was wrong with the piece better than i could.

fifteensmiles


quality posts: 0 Private Messages fifteensmiles
TobiasAmaranth wrote:Really? A Ramy shirt? I'm legitimately surprised. And I have to say that it's a job well done on doing something different.


Really? I could tell in an instant it was a Ramy from the thumbnail.

thelopes


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thelopes
MissFortune wrote:wow the wings look much improved.
(now my only quibble is the bird's tail though i can't place why)


I agree this - to me, the tail looks more like tattered cloth than a tail...

But the problem for me comes more in that the action seems to be like a bird coming down to attack - but the tail's direction seems opposite. The tail changes the reaction as though the bird isn't swooping forward, but reeling back - which doesn't really fit "Predator".

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
Re: Predator (v2!)


This is pretty cool! Very nice work Ramy. I like the designs behind the bird. I think this is really different from your recent work, you deserve some praise for that :D

Earlysong


quality posts: 21 Private Messages Earlysong
Re: Predator (v2!)


I think it's very cool every now and then to see what you can do other than cutesy animals. Way to go!

I love this website! ^^

avhienda01


quality posts: 0 Private Messages avhienda01
Re: Predator (v2!)


I don't think I would wear this, but I just thought I'd let you know that I love the textures/patterns in the background. The colors look so crisp and sharp.

sakleehop


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sakleehop
Re: Predator (v2!)


I'm curious - is this supposed to be reflective of an actual predatory bird - if so - which one? I guess I'm having difficulty distinguishing the kind of bird this is. Parts of it remind me of a raptor but then the beak and face don't really match up. Or, is this just a fictional bird - not really representative of any particular species?

jmmbell1987


quality posts: 78 Private Messages jmmbell1987
bassanimation wrote:This is pretty cool! Very nice work Ramy. I like the designs behind the bird. I think this is really different from your recent work, you deserve some praise for that :D


I thought this was a Kdeuce design at first because of those. That might be considered branching out, I suppose.

beso0282


quality posts: 0 Private Messages beso0282
Re: Predator (v2!)


awesome design!

Everything is art.

dmaz


quality posts: 12 Private Messages dmaz
Re: Predator (v2!)


This really needs to fog. Soooo much better than most of whats in there now

HametsuNoSaturn


quality posts: 0 Private Messages HametsuNoSaturn
Re: Predator (v2!)


I really like this one. It's one of my favorites in the Derby right now and I was surprised by all the negative critiquing. While I can see what they're saying, on first glance, I didn't notice anything wrong with it.

Very awesome shirt, I love it.

HametsuNoSaturn


quality posts: 0 Private Messages HametsuNoSaturn
AdderXYU wrote:I know you mean to be pithy, but yeah. Pretty much.

I've made similar comments and watched them disappear, so perhaps if I use a link it'll be considered viable: This is still generic. It looks like a kdeuce piece. I'm not even saying that as an insult to kdeuce, surprisingly. It's literally Red Flew with a negative fill... white for black, color around, not on bird.

Forgive me if I remain unimpressed.


I completely disagree. Aside from it being a stylized bird placed in the upper, right hand corner, it really looks different to me. Even the way it's stylized is different, the only similar aspect is that they're both a bit sketchy, but kdeuce's bird has way thicker lines, where Ramy's is much finer. For as nit-picky as you seem, I'm surprised you found them so very similar.

Draug


quality posts: 69 Private Messages Draug
ramyb wrote:@MissFortune, Xazothia & Draug- glad you like the changes I think the edits were definitely worth making, after the issues were pointed out to me I sketched over the original and saw how much better it looked and went with it. Deleted the original now.


You're welcome! It's good to see you steer a bit away from your usual style. Could we hope for a more radical departure in the next derby?

The enemy's gate is down.
Writers are people too! (Albeit strange ones.)
Save Poe! Reckon Nevermore! Or he'll be head-locked forevermore!

stingray69


quality posts: 4 Private Messages stingray69
Re: Predator (v2!)


It's nice to see some effort, but I will never go for shirts with that kind of random generic pattern of shapes in the background. I've always hated that. At least there isn't a skull on it. Please keep going this direction, though.

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
Draug wrote:You're welcome! It's good to see you steer a bit away from your usual style. Could we hope for a more radical departure in the next derby?


I wouldn't hold your breath, Ramy does occasionally seem to veer away from the random swirly halftone and chibi animal shirts, and I think I've even seen a couple that I didn't immediately hate when he's done this.

But he ALWAYS goes back to the dreck, without fail. I'm not sure if he puts these out because he actually has some shred of boredom with the same old tired non-work every single week, or if he thinks by doing it every blue moon or so he can deflect some of the angry mob that gathers to him. I mean seeing 2-3 Rami/Seki cutesy garbage shirts win a single derby kinda maxes out the frenzy rating here, it's a good time to dissapear for a week or two or put something *gasp* slightly different out.

I have no doubt it's a calculated move, they seem to be pretty savvy and manipulative when it comes to these communities and making money off of them.

I don't like this shirt, I certainly like the mood he's trying to represent but it's just too dark and muddled. One thing I have learned in my time at shirt.woot is to avoid these kinds of shirts that will only fade and become unrecognizable in time. It's a mistake I've made before, most notably with Nevermore I'm ashamed to admit. Oh Burned on the other hand is one of my oldest shirts and it still looks great. It's bright, clear, and a well defined image.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
ramyb wrote:I worked on the bird a bit more, hopefully you'll find it improved from the original. Thanks to everyone who supported the first submission of this design, and I hope you all like the edits I've made


I think there is some confusion. I know many seemed to be focused on the birds anatomical right wing which is on the left side of the comp but it is the birds left wing on the right side of the comp that is the problem. It is cocked back awkwardly and it doesn't fit with the body positioning you have put the bird in. It seems like you attempted to make the wing come directly out at the viewer but it does not come across that way. What you are trying to illustrate:



What you actually have:

Turns out it is pretty hard to find a bird doing what you have it doing because they just can't put their wings in that position during flight. I thought I had one in my own pictures but I didn't so I'll illustrate.



You've also reduced the definition in the bird so now it really does just look like a random black swatch in the midst of some red. Especially around the beak. It will be nearly impossible to see any of the beak detail from a distance. And we still have the random stock vectors. Not to mention because you have made the right wing much longer than it should be, you've shrunk the design so that it will be very tiny on the mens and even smaller on the womens which completely cancels out the effect of having a splash design.

There's almost nothing you've done well in executing this design, unfortunately.

matchstick3


quality posts: 0 Private Messages matchstick3
mrwednesday wrote:I think there is some confusion. I know many seemed to be focused on the birds anatomical right wing which is on the left side of the comp but it is the birds left wing on the right side of the comp that is the problem. It is cocked back awkwardly and it doesn't fit with the body positioning you have put the bird in. It seems like you attempted to make the wing come directly out at the viewer but it does not come across that way. What you have is this (picture demonstrating to come in a second):

You've also reduced the definition in the bird so now it really does just look like a random black swatch in the midst of some red. Especially around the beak. It will be nearly impossible to see any of the beak detail from a distance. And we still have the random stock vectors. Not to mention because you have made the right wing much longer than it should be, you've shrunk the design so that it will be very tiny on the mens and even smaller on the womens which completely cancels out the effect of have a splash design.

There's almost nothing you've done well in executing this design, unfortunately.


I agree with the bird's left wing looking awkward. With no highlights to show it coming toward the viewer it looks odd.

Also, as mentioned, the tail leaves me questioning. The wings are so much better defined than the tail that it makes the tail stand out. It needs a little more defining in my opinion so it doesn't slap the viewer because it looks out of place.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
bluetuba wrote:One thing I have learned in my time at shirt.woot is to avoid these kinds of shirts that will only fade and become unrecognizable in time. It's a mistake I've made before, most notably with Nevermore I'm ashamed to admit.


This isn't really the type of shirt to fade- there's a major difference between this type of shirt and one like nevermore, which is that for lighter colors on a dark shirt, woot puts a white underlayer underneath the ink to make it stand out more. If anything, it will be more visible than it is in the comp. For a shirt like nevermore, on the other hand, the asphalt shirt is darker than the comp in the first place, and there is no white underlayer, so the ink fades quickly and blends in with the shirt. I have designed several shirts with relatively dark colors on black, and all have survived great in the wash because of the white underlayer.

Anyway, I'm really glad to see that some people like how this turned out, it was definitely a fun experiment to say the least

thunderstar


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thunderstar

Oh my gosh! I love this to death! Which, oddly, is what this reminds me of. GMV easily!

marmls2m


quality posts: 2 Private Messages marmls2m
AdderXYU wrote:I know you mean to be pithy, but yeah. Pretty much.

I've made similar comments and watched them disappear, so perhaps if I use a link it'll be considered viable: This is still generic. It looks like a kdeuce piece. I'm not even saying that as an insult to kdeuce, surprisingly. It's literally Red Flew with a negative fill... white for black, color around, not on bird.

Forgive me if I remain unimpressed.


the exact composition is different and the bird has remnants of ramy's classic shiny style, but conception and execution is incredible similar. it even has that bubble stock vector texture and paint drips and splatter. even the color palate is the same. should be rejected IMO


Deleter8


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Deleter8

this shirt really rocks, I hope it gets sold cuz I'm definitely a buyer...

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
Re: Predator (v2!)


I'm amused at the anatomy pokings on this one.

Plenty of anatomy issues arise in tons of designs here and elsewhere. It's very, very difficult to draw organic creatures. While this may not be quite correct, it's still an appealing image of a bird. If I had a nickel for every anatomy mistake I see in art I'd be rich. Lord knows I fudge countless bones and muscles.

Lots of great artists I know still make anatomy mistakes. It rarely makes the design 'horrible'.

cmdixon2


quality posts: 21 Private Messages cmdixon2
jmmbell1987 wrote:I thought this was a Kdeuce design at first because of those. That might be considered branching out, I suppose.


My first thought was Kdeuce as well.

colinm09


quality posts: 70 Private Messages colinm09

I see a shirt like this and wonder why Ramy bothers with those awful chibi animals. This isn't horrible. It's not anything amazing, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of any cutesy swirl design he does. More of this in the future and none of the horrible chibi stuff, Ramy? Please? Please? Anything is better than that.

-Matt Colin

kylemittskus


quality posts: 230 Private Messages kylemittskus
Re: Predator (v2!)


This is vectored right?

It's also pathetic and my first thought was KDeuce as well.

So can we at least give Ramyb credit for finding a new style? Did he steal this new style? Sure. But at least it's new! (In case you missed it, I am being absolutely facetious.)

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

yumac29


quality posts: 3 Private Messages yumac29
Draug wrote:You're welcome! It's good to see you steer a bit away from your usual style. Could we hope for a more radical departure in the next derby?


Draug, is your sig a Enders Game reference?

Nothing like a good shirt.woot argument. Gets me through a whole class.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
bassanimation wrote:Lots of great artists I know still make anatomy mistakes. It rarely makes the design 'horrible'.


It depends on the magnitude of the mistake. When the mistake is horribly large, well, I think you can follow what that makes the end result look like.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 230 Private Messages kylemittskus
bassanimation wrote: Lots of great artists I know still make anatomy mistakes. It rarely makes the design 'horrible'.


The difference between a good artist making an anatomical mistake and this POS is that the good artist will fix that mistake by studying said anatomy over and over again and not be satisfied until it is correct. A good artist would certainly not submit, or call an anatomically incorrect design finished.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

banzaaiii


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
Re: Predator (v2!)


i dont think the anatomy is that incorrect or bad, i just think the position and features of the bird arent clearly shown due to being basically a silhouette. the bird is kind of turned at an angle out of the shirt, in an attacking position, with its wings in a "braking" position. its heading in the direction its body, head, talons and tail are heading. its not a straight on picture like youre depicting mr. wednesday. (and btw did you really just take a picture of yourself to show that?!?!). However, because the wing is just pure black, you dont get the element of depth

a quick google search gave me these two photos that kind of resemble it, just imagine turning them a little to fit the angle of this desingn

http://i.pbase.com/u26/bookjohn/upload/43645513.Eagleattackbrzweb.jpg

http://www.robertbotts.com/Gallery/IOW/Images/hawk_owl_6480_03_750.jpg

birds wings arent as stiff and immovable as a lot of you seem to think. they dont just flap up and down.

Edit: i think the thing that throws it a bit off for me is the birds left wing having too long of a horizontal line before it turns up, so it looks a little like its in the same plane as the other one. the high point of it might need to be a little lower as well, not much, but a little. but hard to say when you cant make the changes and see for real

also, i dont really see much of a resemblence between this one and the kdeuce on adder linked. theyre drawn nothing alike, but feature the same concept (a bird in this position, but kdeuces is turned inwards)

that said, this shirt isnt for me. now go vote on "stupid parrot, this is a black tie affair" everyone

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
banzaaiii wrote:a quick google search gave me these two photos that kind of resemble it, just imagine turning them a little to fit the angle of this desingn





birds wings arent as stiff and immovable as a lot of you seem to think. they dont just flap up and down.


As someone who has spent a summer observing turkey vultures as a part of a research project and who has spent much time birding as well as owned them myself, I will try to show you where you have it wrong.

I've very crudely (since I don't want to spend that much time on it) illustrated the directionality of the feathers. They are not coming directly out at the viewer as I already mentioned. ramy has clearly drawn them swept backward and pointed downward. Look at the design again and then look at your photos. If that is what he was trying to illustrate he has not done it. Pure and simple. The bird is doing exactly what I demonstrated before.

Additionally, I drew in the bone structure of the bird wing. You'll notice that the hand of the bird ends at the alula yet ramy has illustrated the bone structure continuing well past the alula in the right wing of the bird and as a result it is exceedingly long and the primaries are attached much too far down the wing. You can chalk this up to stylization but it does not make the anatomy correct.

sekiyoku


quality posts: 18 Private Messages sekiyoku
banzaaiii wrote:(and btw did you really just take a picture of yourself to show that?!?!).


seriously funny right? :D

Aberrantic


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Aberrantic
bassanimation wrote:I'm amused at the anatomy pokings on this one.

Plenty of anatomy issues arise in tons of designs here and elsewhere. It's very, very difficult to draw organic creatures. While this may not be quite correct, it's still an appealing image of a bird. If I had a nickel for every anatomy mistake I see in art I'd be rich. Lord knows I fudge countless bones and muscles.

Lots of great artists I know still make anatomy mistakes. It rarely makes the design 'horrible'.


Hmm. Not so much. I am far, far, far from a professional artist, I've never taken an art course in my life, and yet I can draw a more anatomically correct bird than this junk. All it takes is a half way to decent reference picture and a little bit of patience and attention to detail. But I'm guessing the last two are not often in large supply for ramy. Sure, it's very, very difficult to actually get all bones and muscles in exactly the right place and the more someone has spent time with a particular animal, the easier it is for that person to notice the problem (I have birds. The mistakes are glaring), but just getting the general shape of the body correct is really not that hard. If you're going to try to draw something in a realistic anatomical fashion, don't half ass it like this, plzkthx.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola

Is anybody nitpicking Edgars design because the bird is not anatomically correct? I think Edgars is very very good btw.

This weeks design for Ramyb compared to last week is light years ahead and much better. He has also listened to peoples criticism and has been making some changes, and undeniably on theme this week, yet people still find a way to pick it apart and never be happy. haha

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
mikenytola wrote:Is anybody nitpicking Edgars design because the bird is not anatomically correct? I think Edgars is very very good btw.

This weeks design for Ramyb compared to last week is light years ahead and much better. He has also listened to peoples criticism and has been making some changes, and undeniably on theme this week, yet people still find a way to pick it apart and never be happy. haha


Edgar's anatomy is consistent throughout and his birds are in actual bird positions. ramy's isn't in a position a bird would ever be in and is not consistent right to left.

lrn2artcritickthxbai

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
mrwednesday wrote:Edgar's anatomy is consistent throughout and his birds are in actual bird positions. ramy's isn't in a position a bird would ever be in and is not consistent right to left.

lrn2artcritickthxbai

I think your critiques of the birds anatomy are justified actually, I'm just pointing out the obvious reasons for the amount of critiques here. And Edgar's birds are quite off anatomically doesn't matter they are in a natural position when we are talking anatomy. I never argued the position did I? ;) My point is only people are nit picking in here.

lrn2notalwaysbesodfenseivandrudekthxbai

Aberrantic


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Aberrantic
mrwednesday wrote:Edgar's anatomy is consistent throughout and his birds are in actual bird positions. ramy's isn't in a position a bird would ever be in and is not consistent right to left.

lrn2artcritickthxbai


Also, Edgar doesn't seem to be trying for precise anatomy, to me at least. He has a very stylized way of drawing, and that is why people don't harp on him or other artists who are clearly drawing in a certain not true to nature style, whereas ramy did appear to try to match nature here and failed.

MafiaAce


quality posts: 0 Private Messages MafiaAce

Best entry in the derby. Don't listen to the mindless fools, this is brilliant, far from generic.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
Aberrantic wrote:Also, Edgar doesn't seem to be trying for precise anatomy, to me at least. He has a very stylized way of drawing, and that is why people don't harp on him or other artists who are clearly drawing in a certain not true to nature style, whereas ramy did appear to try to match nature here and failed.


Exactly. I will say again, ramy doesn't get more criticism because people dislike him. He gets more criticism because he consistently submits flawed and unfinished work.

Correlation does not imply causation.

phantom09


quality posts: 1 Private Messages phantom09
mrwednesday wrote:

Correlation does not imply causation.


Yay statistics!

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
Aberrantic wrote:Also, Edgar doesn't seem to be trying for precise anatomy, to me at least. He has a very stylized way of drawing, and that is why people don't harp on him or other artists who are clearly drawing in a certain not true to nature style, whereas ramy did appear to try to match nature here and failed.

Then how come nobody has mentioned the bottom half of the bird and is fixated on the wings which are not that bad (yet anatomically incorrect)? You say Edgar has a style, so does Ramyb, love it or hate it he is being stylized as well.

It's nitpicking when he has put more effort into this one than others by a landslide (imo), at least give the kid some credit where credit is due. He's starting to listen to people's criticisms and more open to changing some things. I'm not disagreeing that the bird's anatomy is incorrect, I agree with it but it's just not that big a deal beacuse this is not trying to be photo realistic and it's not grossly off. At least some people are being less insulting and more critiquing, so I guess that's giving him some credit. I think some of the regular haters (ex. Mr Wed) are actually being pretty good and constructive in here for a change. (It's a compliment, don't get defensive) Hell, he even used a photo example that was pretty damn funny and gave me a laugh.

Draug


quality posts: 69 Private Messages Draug
yumac29 wrote:Draug, is your sig a Enders Game reference?


Yep! ^_^

The enemy's gate is down.
Writers are people too! (Albeit strange ones.)
Save Poe! Reckon Nevermore! Or he'll be head-locked forevermore!

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
mikenytola wrote:Then how come nobody has mentioned the bottom half of the bird and is fixated on the wings which are not that bad (yet anatomically incorrect)? You say Edgar has a style, so does Ramyb, love it or hate it he is being stylized as well.

It's nitpicking when he has put more effort into this one than others by a landslide (imo), at least give the kid some credit where credit is due. He's starting to listen to people's criticisms and more open to changing some things. I'm not disagreeing that the bird's anatomy is incorrect, I agree with it but it's just not that big a deal beacuse this is not trying to be photo realistic and it's not grossly off. At least some people are being less insulting and more critiquing, so I guess that's giving him some credit. I think some of the regular haters (ex. Mr Wed) are actually being pretty good and constructive in here for a change. (It's a compliment, don't get defensive) Hell, he even used a photo example that was pretty damn funny and gave me a laugh.


It's not nitpicking. This design is seriously flawed for multiple reasons. Edgar's would take a lot more effort than this one. His is hand drawn and there is a lot more detail. ramy only drew a rough outline (which is not anatomically correct by a long shot in the wings or the tail and is not consistent from side to side) and then placed and colored some stock vectors he pulled from a vector pack. I don't care who the artist is, I don't ever want to see clipart. I can make a clipart design. A 4 year old can drag clipart around until it looks pretty.

As with his swirl designs, if this prints you will see many designs like it until people start to tire of them and then he will move back to the chibi animals once he thinks enough people have gotten over their reluctance to vote for and buy another one. If this doesn't print you'll never see a design like it again. Remeber "The Open Sea?" It didn't print and he never submitted anything like it again despite the fact that it garnered by far the most praise of any design he's submitted.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
mrwednesday wrote:
As with his swirl designs, if this prints you will see many designs like it until people start to tire of them and then he will move back to the chibi animals once he thinks enough people have gotten over their reluctance to vote for and buy another one.

Well if that's the case than I'd like to see this win so we don't see anything like the two in last weeks derby for a while which I did not care for at all. ;)

GravityJMB


quality posts: 5 Private Messages GravityJMB
Re: Predator (v2!)



Love this! Hope it prints!

adbaxter


quality posts: 0 Private Messages adbaxter
Re: Predator (v2!)


Ohhhhhhhh...

This just needed vector pack swirlies and distressing to print...

Darn.

Aberrantic


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Aberrantic
mikenytola wrote:Then how come nobody has mentioned the bottom half of the bird and is fixated on the wings which are not that bad (yet anatomically incorrect)? You say Edgar has a style, so does Ramyb, love it or hate it he is being stylized as well.

It's nitpicking when he has put more effort into this one than others by a landslide (imo), at least give the kid some credit where credit is due. He's starting to listen to people's criticisms and more open to changing some things. I'm not disagreeing that the bird's anatomy is incorrect, I agree with it but it's just not that big a deal beacuse this is not trying to be photo realistic and it's not grossly off. At least some people are being less insulting and more critiquing, so I guess that's giving him some credit. I think some of the regular haters (ex. Mr Wed) are actually being pretty good and constructive in here for a change. (It's a compliment, don't get defensive) Hell, he even used a photo example that was pretty damn funny and gave me a laugh.


I suppose the wings aren't that bad in that they're cleanly drawn and shiny and all. But the right one (my right, the shirt's left) is horrid. If I saw a bird like that, I'd bundle it in a towel so it couldn't jostle its wing anymore, stick it in a carrier, and take it to the vet.
And I agree with Wednesday about the clipart background. Back in the early days of shirt.woot, solid clipart shirts were quite in vouge for a while and won or placed in a number of derbies until people finally started to realise that they took no artistic skill to create and were the equivalent of nicely coloured pixel vomit. And then they stopped appearing and I, for one, missed them not at all and had really hoped the woot community and artists had moved past them.

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
mrwednesday wrote:It depends on the magnitude of the mistake. When the mistake is horribly large, well, I think you can follow what that makes the end result look like.


True, but, I honestly don't see it as that bad here. I've seen much, much worse, in published artwork of all kinds. Plus, sometimes when things look "too real" or "too correct" it can look sort of stilted or lifeless. The errors in art are what make it human. Just my view, everyone's is different.

bsketbllplyer


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bsketbllplyer
Re: Predator (v2!)


Do Adder or wednesday ever submit anything? I really want them to submit something they feel is good, and then I can just be blown away by its perfection.

I'm new, so this is actually an honest question, with a semi-sarcastic remark following.

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
bsketbllplyer wrote:Do Adder or wednesday ever submit anything? I really want them to submit something they feel is good, and then I can just be blown away by its perfection.

I'm new, so this is actually an honest question, with a semi-sarcastic remark following.


it's an often-made, and very false, assumption that one must be an excellent artist/designer/whatever to have valid critique of other art/design/whatever. But we all know you don't have to sing like Whitney Houston to know that Britney Spears is bad.

That said, Adder has submitted designs to Cameesa and Goodjoe, while openly admitting he's not a great artist. I don't know about Mr. Weds.

JadenKale


quality posts: 181 Private Messages JadenKale
bsketbllplyer wrote:Do Adder or wednesday ever submit anything? I really want them to submit something they feel is good, and then I can just be blown away by its perfection.

I'm new, so this is actually an honest question, with a semi-sarcastic remark following.


Most of Adder's entries are commentaries on the stupidity of woot... though, I am quite a fan of Walrusbird.

bsketbllplyer


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bsketbllplyer
xazothia wrote:it's an often-made, and very false, assumption that one must be an excellent artist/designer/whatever to have valid critique of other art/design/whatever. But we all know you don't have to sing like Whitney Houston to know that Britney Spears is bad.

That said, Adder has submitted designs to Cameesa and Goodjoe, while openly admitting he's not a great artist. I don't know about Mr. Weds.


I agree that you don't need to be an artist to critique art. However it just irks me to hear people say how easy this is, and how anyone can do it, and so on.

I'll admit, I have thrown an insult or two towards the recent use of "autotune" in music, claiming even I could pull that off. Yet in actuality, I in no way see me being able to make millions using "autotune". If I could, I would... money is money.

I feel, in this case for wednesday, if this level of art is so easy to do, as he claims, he'd at least throw his hands into the fray and give it a shot. At the very least to prove a point.. and earn some money while doing so.

And if you're going to argue that he is too noble to do this, well then I guess you have beat me.

edit: typo... *crosses fingers*

xazothia


quality posts: 54 Private Messages xazothia
bsketbllplyer wrote:I agree that you don't need to be an artist to critique art. However it just irks me to hear people say how easy this is, and how anyone can do it, and so on.

I'll admit, I have thrown an insult or two towards the recent use of "autotune" in music, claiming even I could pull that off. Yet in actuality, I in no way see me being able to make millions using "autotune". If I could, I would... money is money.

I feel, in this case for wednesday, if this level of art is so easy to do, as he claims, he'd at least throw his hands into the fray and give it a shot. At the very least to prove a point.. and earn some money while doing so.

And if you're going to argue that he is too noble to do this, well then I guess you have beat me.

edit: typo... *crosses fingers*


I don't think wednesday was implying that it's easy, simply that there are certain things that people with certain amounts of knowledge are going to be inherently better at doing even with minimal skill. For example, I can't draw airplanes for the life of me unless I'm staring at a photo and trying really, really hard - the proportions of a plane don't come to me as naturally as do the proportions of the human figure. But I bet that my friend who is an aerospace engineering student can draw one a million times better than me despite having zero artistic talent (in his own words).

So, it follows that if you've spent a long time around birds, you might not have the coordination and dexterity to draw it "attractively", but anatomically you'll be significantly closer to "accurate".

Jestik


quality posts: 50 Private Messages Jestik


does anyone watch "Deadliest Warrior" on SpikeTV ?


I love that show.

Poraro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Poraro

In defense of the design (to mrwednesday's comment) I don't think anyone is going to look deep enough into the shirt, or be knowledgeable enough, to notice the error anyway. Maybe a couple of people will realise it looks awkward without being told it is, but the majority of people won't. I didn't even think it looked slightly awkward until I read comments.

marzipanapple


quality posts: 7 Private Messages marzipanapple
bluetuba wrote:
But he ALWAYS goes back to the dreck, without fail. I'm not sure if he puts these out because he actually has some shred of boredom with the same old tired non-work every single week, or if he thinks by doing it every blue moon or so he can deflect some of the angry mob that gathers to him.


In no way am I an avid supporter of Ramy's usual work (and even less a fan of Seki's work..regardless of it looking the 'same', you can tell Ramy at least has a better understanding of basic shapes/anatomy than she does), but I would like to try being the devil's advocate on this for a sec.

Imagine that he truly enjoys drawing that 'tired non-work' he submits every week. Now let's imagine that he makes lots of money with it (well..I guess 'accept' is a better word than imagine). Now let's all wonder why he's not thwarted by people who are against him.

The equation is pretty much: Draw what you love + get paid for it = WOOHOO!

I think everyone assumes he's pandering on purpose (and sometimes, that might be the case) but even when he *is* I'm pretty sure he loves what he's doing(unfortunately we don't).

Anyway, on the subject of this one I thought the anatomy naysayers might've been too nitpicky until I really looked at the design. Sorry Ramy, but I'm assuming since his talons are in the air that he's in flight. Instead though, it sort of looks like someone is either holding the bird up by his wing joints or threw him really hard at a perfectly horizontal angle (and he's just hit the wall). 'Lookit that, Earl! Bird's bleed'n neon ornge!'

Altheahelaine


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Altheahelaine
Re: Predator (v2!)


Looks like something I can find in Target. The mass public seem to like those target/circle swirls or whatever.

I live, I learn, and so aid my end while I believe I'm winning

bluetuba


quality posts: 58 Private Messages bluetuba
marzipanapple wrote:In no way am I an avid supporter of Ramy's usual work (and even less a fan of Seki's work..regardless of it looking the 'same', you can tell Ramy at least has a better understanding of basic shapes/anatomy than she does), but I would like to try being the devil's advocate on this for a sec.

Imagine that he truly enjoys drawing that 'tired non-work' he submits every week. Now let's imagine that he makes lots of money with it (well..I guess 'accept' is a better word than imagine). Now let's all wonder why he's not thwarted by people who are against him.

The equation is pretty much: Draw what you love + get paid for it = WOOHOO!

I think everyone assumes he's pandering on purpose (and sometimes, that might be the case) but even when he *is* I'm pretty sure he loves what he's doing(unfortunately we don't).


You are right to a degree, I can't imagine any reason why he wouldn't just love drawing anime kitties and making a couple grand every other week here. Speculating on his motivation is just that, speculation.

The post was originally meant to be a response to the people hoping this would represent some new trend where he'd quit flooding woot with his "winning" formula. I would dispute the winning thing because I believe there is reason to believe they manipulate the vote illegally or they do so by bringing in masses of people from elsewhere who just do what he says. You can crank out low quality generic scaffolding that will get a certain amount of votes from wooters, and then bringing in your own crew of hundreds and easily win quite alot. Illegal? Maybe not, but super lameass nonetheless.

They get banned and ignored by other tee shirt sites for a reason. Adder and others are right, a pure votes system is easily exploitable and that's what we've been seeing for a year since they came here.

This is indeed tiring, it comes up every week on every Ramy/Seki entry thread, I regret perpetuating it.

My point is that it won't stop, ever. The occasional non-formulaic entry is not the start of a trend.

"You can't just dress a Minion like Spock, and add a caption that says "Logical Me". There's a prison for people like that. Below my house."

juliaL719


quality posts: 0 Private Messages juliaL719
marzipanapple wrote:

AInstead though, it sort of looks like someone is either holding the bird up by his wing joints or threw him really hard at a perfectly horizontal angle (and he's just hit the wall). 'Lookit that, Earl! Bird's bleed'n neon ornge!'


Oh hee. Oh hee hee hee.

Yeah, the flattened wing is really bothering me. This is honestly a problem which could have been fixed via looking at like 3 pictures of a swooping falcon - that IS what kind of bird is depicted, correct? Because the parrot-esque beak was throwing me off.

I doodle a lot of swoopy birds - I haven't the slightest idea why - and I generally had the same fundamental problem with getting the closer wing just so. Perspective's a pain to learn, but it is a hell of important thing to learn.

As an aside, I am sick to death of the pervasive vector-vomit in the world of mass-marketed shirts. Say I am in Target and realize that boyfriend needs a new t-shirt. Alas! They have all been puked upon by distressed skulls and swirlies and circles.

SJulian1


quality posts: 0 Private Messages SJulian1
mrwednesday wrote:Exactly. I will say again, ramy doesn't get more criticism because people dislike him. He gets more criticism because he consistently submits flawed and unfinished work.

Correlation does not imply causation.


You can't honestly say that he doesn't get some flack because people don't like him (with proper reasons)

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
bsketbllplyer wrote:Do Adder or wednesday ever submit anything? I really want them to submit something they feel is good, and then I can just be blown away by its perfection.

I'm new, so this is actually an honest question, with a semi-sarcastic remark following.


I would also love to see them submit work here, or anywhere. But, I dont think they have the confidence to show us anything that is less than perfection. That would actually open them up to the same type of crit they offer up here daily. I don't know if they have the heart for that . It's not easy having anons on the internet pick apart your every efforts while making assumptions about your character and personal goals.

strawhat311


quality posts: 6 Private Messages strawhat311
Re: Predator (v2!)


Looks great! Congratulations. I'd buy it. GMV!

bassanimation


quality posts: 98 Private Messages bassanimation
bluetuba wrote:"winning" formula


Ramy and Seki aren't the only artists who use favored techniques to consistently gain votes. Just an observation. -shrugg- If the shoe fits, I don't see a problem with wearing it. Obviously others don't have a problem with it either.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 230 Private Messages kylemittskus
bassanimation wrote:I would also love to see them submit work here, or anywhere. But, I dont think they have the confidence to show us anything that is less than perfection. That would actually open them up to the same type of crit they offer up here daily. I don't know if they have the heart for that . It's not easy having anons on the internet pick apart your every efforts while making assumptions about your character and personal goals.


Please stop using this argument. It's meaningless and completely ignorant.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
SJulian1 wrote:You can't honestly say that he doesn't get some flack because people don't like him (with proper reasons)


Yes I can and you've listed the important part there: "with proper reasons." The proper reasons are the reason he gets flack. People also don't like him, but I can only speak for myself in saying that it doesn't motivate the criticism. From what I have seen from his other major critics, personal vendettas or jealousy don't motivate them either. The few times he has actually put enough effort to make his subs free of major flaws, I've not had a word to say, but that rarely ever happens so you won't notice unless you're paying attention. And honestly, in those cases, his designs don't really do well because most of his casual supporters even recognize the thumbnails.

But honestly, anyone who is motivated by their distaste for ramy, I don't even blame them. It's painfully clear (especially given the mask entry from the mystery derby) that people vote the artist not the submission. That "ramyb" above the comp is just as important as what is below it so why shouldn't people criticize the artist?

InfernoX


quality posts: 1 Private Messages InfernoX

Grats for doing something different.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
marzipanapple wrote:In no way am I an avid supporter of Ramy's usual work (and even less a fan of Seki's work..regardless of it looking the 'same', you can tell Ramy at least has a better understanding of basic shapes/anatomy than she does), but I would like to try being the devil's advocate on this for a sec.

Imagine that he truly enjoys drawing that 'tired non-work' he submits every week. Now let's imagine that he makes lots of money with it (well..I guess 'accept' is a better word than imagine). Now let's all wonder why he's not thwarted by people who are against him.

The equation is pretty much: Draw what you love + get paid for it = WOOHOO!

I think everyone assumes he's pandering on purpose (and sometimes, that might be the case) but even when he *is* I'm pretty sure he loves what he's doing(unfortunately we don't).

Anyway, on the subject of this one I thought the anatomy naysayers might've been too nitpicky until I really looked at the design. Sorry Ramy, but I'm assuming since his talons are in the air that he's in flight. Instead though, it sort of looks like someone is either holding the bird up by his wing joints or threw him really hard at a perfectly horizontal angle (and he's just hit the wall). 'Lookit that, Earl! Bird's bleed'n neon ornge!'


Which is why knowing more about him is so important.

If I love selling cars, and it is my job, obviously I'm going to get paid for it and no one is going to like me, because car salesmen are high-pressure jerkoffs. But I might not be a jerkoff (lol at that) in real life. I might simply love the challenge and the interacting with people. You can certainly love what you do and make money off it even if it is scaffolding.

But Ramy's entire artistic career has been about sneaking and manipulating and greed and jealousy of anything that isn't him. If we even go so far as his responses at woot, every one from he and his girl are condescending, nose-thumbing, etc. They do not care, because it brings in money.

They also so rarely stay on theme. The last two weeks, it's been impossible to NOT be on theme, but most weeks they do the bare minimum to be juuuust on the edge where they can argue a theme that only they and woot seem to see. If this was something they truly loved, they would respect the contest. They would force themselves to be on theme, instead of just drawing the same trash every week and shoehorning it in. This is easy to show for anyone who has been here for over two months following things

And then, we go back to before woot. Sekiyoku's multi-account ban from deviantart, which Ramy even talks about and admits at his own DA blog. The Otakon incident, where their work was being sold at tables which were not theirs, working around the rules to oversaturate their own exposure potential and bring in more money, and they brought in a non-artist to be a decoy and sell more of their work and create enough doubt. Ramy's own constant defenses of other "controversies" pre-woot on his DA blog, and the frequent attacks there on any art other than his own style (any instance of DA narrowing the anime style from front-page exposure, such as disallowing it in certain catagories or allowing literature to be considered art, for example... god forbid he love doing his work enough to do it when exposure is lessened). And of course, this gif of Ramy's many facial shapes and expressions.

You can postulate all you want that he truly loves doing this style, but I believe that the reason he truly loves it is purely because it brings in the mindless praise and eventually the megabucks. He may like how it looks, or have fun doing it, too, but if that were the main thing, he'd do it while staying on theme, and do it while searching for creative ideas, and do it while altering his specifics to diversify within his style, and most importantly, he'd do it without a shady history as vast and multifaceted as his is.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
bassanimation wrote:Ramy and Seki aren't the only artists who use favored techniques to consistently gain votes. Just an observation. -shrugg- If the shoe fits, I don't see a problem with wearing it. Obviously others don't have a problem with it either.


No, no, they're not the only PEOPLE who use these things. Most people who rely on the same tired cliches are not artists. They are businesspeople. They are nothing. You can't be artistic and cliche and tired unless you are able to continually bring something new to the table, and something impressive to the table.

There are people who have similar elements frequently but DO bring something. They have impressive skills in their execution, they have a diversity of subjects to incorporate elements into, they are willing to expand from those subjects and take risks, and they are doing things that are uniquely them, even if they do it repeatedly. The people who do the same as Ramy and Seki, however... using one or two simple, uncreative, marketflooding styles to make generic work of boring ideas for the sake of making a quick buck, and never push themselves... those people get what ramiyoku get. They're just here less. Why? Because all they care about is money, and with ramy and seki clenching their artless hands around the payoffs, it's not worth it for them to waste time. Because to all of these people, a design that might not win is a waste of time.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
marmls2m wrote:if the argument is so meaningless, why dont you come up with a better one, huh??

go easy on her kyle, she's just a designer. she cant be expected to understand things like logic and ethics


As cynical as I am, half the reason I fight here at all is because I believe that artists AND designers can and should understand logic and ethics. Not so much around here, but I've seen it elsewhere.

Design IS an art. Good design should ALWAYS have artistry in it. But while we can praise the abstractions of art without any element of design, design that lacks art is like local, low-budget commercials... created solely to bring in sales, and ugly and horribly done.

ressamac


quality posts: 4 Private Messages ressamac
Re: Predator (v2!)


I wish these great discussions about art and design were in their own thread so I could find them.

I think Ramyb has an eye for color.

marmls2m


quality posts: 2 Private Messages marmls2m
AdderXYU wrote:As cynical as I am, half the reason I fight here at all is because I believe that artists AND designers can and should understand logic and ethics. Not so much around here, but I've seen it elsewhere.

Design IS an art. Good design should ALWAYS have artistry in it. But while we can praise the abstractions of art without any element of design, design that lacks art is like local, low-budget commercials... created solely to bring in sales, and ugly and horribly done.


given that my original comment was removed i have no doubt your reply will be removed too, and this comment possibly too. however, in that post i did not mean to differentiate between artists and designers. i might as well have said:

"go easy on her kyle, shes just an artist"


ssjbryces


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ssjbryces

Excellent. This entry shows significant improvement over your entries last week. Please keep this style, but the anatomy could use some work. If you improve at this rate every week, I might be voting for you within the year.

sefjwm


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sefjwm

Yay now I don't have to drive down to Walmart.

palookaboy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy
sefjwm wrote:Yay now I don't have to drive down to Walmart.


lmao to that.

Time was, I found ramy and seki's shirts appealing (though not buy-worthy) at first. And I'll admit that when I first started reading Adder's rants, I initially thought "This a-hole needs to get over it."

But as weeks went by and I began seeing more of these shirts over and over (and over) and reading Adder's responses (over and over) I've actually come to your side of the fence.

I think Adder's comparison to kdeuce's Red Flew is entirely valid. Just because it's not exactly the same doesn't mean it's not too similar. I wouldn't get away with making a movie about a bus that had to drive 50 mph or it would explode just by making it a school bus instead of a public transportation bus.

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
Re: Predator (v2!)



What the heck is this garbage doing in the fog? Why doesn't Woot just stop having derbies. This is becoming a big joke. I'm sorry but this is just pitiful. Every damn week!

wootasourous


quality posts: 119 Private Messages wootasourous
snarkygal wrote:What the heck is this garbage doing in the fog? Why doesn't Woot just stop having derbies. This is becoming a big joke. I'm sorry but this is just pitiful. Every damn week!


I'll show you the front door if you want to leave?

TheyKilledKenny


quality posts: 2 Private Messages TheyKilledKenny
ramyb wrote:This isn't really the type of shirt to fade- there's a major difference between this type of shirt and one like nevermore, which is that for lighter colors on a dark shirt, woot puts a white underlayer underneath the ink to make it stand out more. If anything, it will be more visible than it is in the comp. For a shirt like nevermore, on the other hand, the asphalt shirt is darker than the comp in the first place, and there is no white underlayer, so the ink fades quickly and blends in with the shirt. I have designed several shirts with relatively dark colors on black, and all have survived great in the wash because of the white underlayer.

Anyway, I'm really glad to see that some people like how this turned out, it was definitely a fun experiment to say the least


That's actually very good information to know... I see very discussion regarding the shirts themselves... and the quality of the Woot shirt/print...

Excuse Me Maam, Your Woot is Showing...

jskunze


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jskunze

I like it, nice "detail fade" for lack of an educated term.

Zyphron


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Zyphron
Re: Predator (v2!)


as much as you may not like What he says. Adder is Right. He's throwing Fact after fact out against Ramy and seki and you people still Defend them. They have shown time and time again they are in it for the money. But can you blame them? woot makes it so easy for the system to be abused.

if the only easy way to "Win" is to use the "cheat Codes" then why Try it the correct way?

I'm not calling anyone a cheater. I just want the Lifeless turtles, bunnies, mice, and Penguins to stop, and i'm not the only one.

like said above. the Artist holds as much if not alot more weight as the Art does. people see the names and mindlessly vote.

ambergreen


quality posts: 11 Private Messages ambergreen
MafiaAce wrote:Best entry in the derby. Don't listen to the mindless fools, this is brilliant, far from generic.


Except that it generically looks like any shirt at Fred Meyer, Walmart, Target, Kohl's, or [insert regional department store here] with a swirly, spotty, geometric, color splash background and a foreground with a skull, guitar, tree, etc.

Shirt.Woot has made me realize how many of the same shirt in different color combos/main meme exist on the store shelves. And occasionally one of them still shows up/wins here.

yankeebird


quality posts: 7 Private Messages yankeebird
Zyphron wrote:as much as you may not like What he says. Adder is Right. He's throwing Fact after fact out against Ramy and seki and you people still Defend them. They have shown time and time again they are in it for the money. But can you blame them? woot makes it so easy for the system to be abused.

if the only easy way to "Win" is to use the "cheat Codes" then why Try it the correct way?

I'm not calling anyone a cheater. I just want the Lifeless turtles, bunnies, mice, and Penguins to stop, and i'm not the only one.

like said above. the Artist holds as much if not alot more weight as the Art does. people see the names and mindlessly vote.


I really Like and Admire your random Usage of capital Letters.

johncreillyphile


quality posts: 0 Private Messages johncreillyphile
Zyphron wrote:as much as you may not like What he says. Adder is Right. He's throwing Fact after fact out against Ramy and seki and you people still Defend them. They have shown time and time again they are in it for the money. But can you blame them? woot makes it so easy for the system to be abused.

if the only easy way to "Win" is to use the "cheat Codes" then why Try it the correct way?

I'm not calling anyone a cheater. I just want the Lifeless turtles, bunnies, mice, and Penguins to stop, and i'm not the only one.

like said above. the Artist holds as much if not alot more weight as the Art does. people see the names and mindlessly vote.


No facts have been presented. You are in the minority of people who want the cute stuff to stop. That can be proven by sales - you know - the facts.

Mancho


quality posts: 4 Private Messages Mancho
ambergreen wrote:Except that it generically looks like any shirt at Fred Meyer, Walmart, Target, Kohl's, or [insert regional department store here] with a swirly, spotty, geometric, color splash background and a foreground with a skull, guitar, tree, etc.

Shirt.Woot has made me realize how many of the same shirt in different color combos/main meme exist on the store shelves. And occasionally one of them still shows up/wins here.


Have to agree. Although this is a nice (albeit, likely temporary) departure from his norm, it is still the kind of generic stuff you can pick up at any of those stores.

The wing proportions might be a little off, but it's not a big deal. Certainly not a buy for me, though.

Ramy, I know you can do better than this. I'm not holding my breath, but if you balanced out the chibi dreck with some better caliber stuff, it would sure be appreciated.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 230 Private Messages kylemittskus
wootasourous wrote:I'll show you the front door if you want to leave?


You haven't been here long enough to go kicking people out.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

sezen


quality posts: 9 Private Messages sezen
Re: Predator (v2!)


Pretty good. I'd buy it.

wootasourous


quality posts: 119 Private Messages wootasourous
kylemittskus wrote:You haven't been here long enough to go kicking people out.


Well, I'm not necessarily going to kick anyone out. I just know where the front door is. :P
And anyways, one person complaining about shirt.woot and not wanting any more shirts can just leave... in all honesty for every person that stops probably 10 more join...

icymallard


quality posts: 4 Private Messages icymallard
Re: Predator (v2!)


im torn cuz i like this shirt....
i also really liked kdeuce's shirt that conveyed a similar style and coloring but that one didnt fog at all even though i gave it One vote.

What the Heck guys?
What the Heck?

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
icymallard wrote:im torn cuz i like this shirt....
i also really liked kdeuce's shirt that conveyed a similar style and coloring but that one didnt fog at all even though i gave it One vote.

What the Heck guys?
What the Heck?


Kdeuce's was a lot more visually appealing as well. People vote the artist, pure and simple.

ep9683


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ep9683
AdderXYU wrote:Which is why knowing more about him is so important.

If I love selling cars, and it is my job, obviously I'm going to get paid for it and no one is going to like me, because car salesmen are high-pressure jerkoffs. But I might not be a jerkoff (lol at that) in real life. I might simply love the challenge and the interacting with people. You can certainly love what you do and make money off it even if it is scaffolding.

But Ramy's entire artistic career has been about sneaking and manipulating and greed and jealousy of anything that isn't him. If we even go so far as his responses at woot, every one from he and his girl are condescending, nose-thumbing, etc. They do not care, because it brings in money.

They also so rarely stay on theme. The last two weeks, it's been impossible to NOT be on theme, but most weeks they do the bare minimum to be juuuust on the edge where they can argue a theme that only they and woot seem to see. If this was something they truly loved, they would respect the contest. They would force themselves to be on theme, instead of just drawing the same trash every week and shoehorning it in. This is easy to show for anyone who has been here for over two months following things

And then, we go back to before woot. Sekiyoku's multi-account ban from deviantart, which Ramy even talks about and admits at his own DA blog. The Otakon incident, where their work was being sold at tables which were not theirs, working around the rules to oversaturate their own exposure potential and bring in more money, and they brought in a non-artist to be a decoy and sell more of their work and create enough doubt. Ramy's own constant defenses of other "controversies" pre-woot on his DA blog, and the frequent attacks there on any art other than his own style (any instance of DA narrowing the anime style from front-page exposure, such as disallowing it in certain catagories or allowing literature to be considered art, for example... god forbid he love doing his work enough to do it when exposure is lessened). And of course, this gif of Ramy's many facial shapes and expressions.

You can postulate all you want that he truly loves doing this style, but I believe that the reason he truly loves it is purely because it brings in the mindless praise and eventually the megabucks. He may like how it looks, or have fun doing it, too, but if that were the main thing, he'd do it while staying on theme, and do it while searching for creative ideas, and do it while altering his specifics to diversify within his style, and most importantly, he'd do it without a shady history as vast and multifaceted as his is.


I want to know more about you. Why should I listen to your opinion?

spartankid125


quality posts: 0 Private Messages spartankid125




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... great illustration about the problems you see with the wing! (the shirt you're wearing however still makes no sense to me! none lol)

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
ep9683 wrote:I want to know more about you. Why should I listen to your opinion?


You should listen based on the strength and validity of the evidence presented not your opinion of the person presenting it.

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
johncreillyphile wrote:No facts have been presented. You are in the minority of people who want the cute stuff to stop. That can be proven by sales - you know - the facts.


Sales do not represent total amount of people who visit. I'm sure many more people have looked at the shirt and NOT bought it than have. So, your logic is flawed.

snarkygal


quality posts: 4 Private Messages snarkygal
wootasourous wrote:Well, I'm not necessarily going to kick anyone out. I just know where the front door is. :P
And anyways, one person complaining about shirt.woot and not wanting any more shirts can just leave... in all honesty for every person that stops probably 10 more join...


I DO want more shirts. What I want is NOT scaffolding like this or any of his and his g/f's designs. I want quality designs that I wouldn't be ashamed of walking down the street in. I'm not 12. I don't wear cute and shiny or generic stuff like this that I could go into any store and buy. I come here for original designs that appeal to me. None have in a very long time unfortunately.

JaundiceDave


quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
mrwednesday wrote:You should listen based on the strength and validity of the evidence presented not your opinion of the person presenting it.


This is exactly how I feel about Adder and his accusations of cheating.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
JaundiceDave wrote:This is exactly how I feel about Adder and his accusations of cheating.


I'm glad you agree that ramy and seki's wins are suspect at best. Good to hear.

JaundiceDave


quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
mrwednesday wrote:I'm glad you agree that ramy and seki's wins are suspect at best. Good to hear.


No, I'm referring to how Adder fails to look at the evidence (or lack thereof) of cheating and instead lets his unabashed loathing of the two cloud his judgement. Let me get this out of the way: I'm no ramy/seki groupie. I don't like most of their designs, though I have bought one by Ramy (blue moon). I'm not from gaia or DA (I can't stand either site) and I have no motivation for defending either of them other than that seeing unfounded ad homenim attacks pisses me off to no end.

Let us look at an actual Adder post in which he discusses his accusations of cheating on the part of Ramy and Seki.

AdderXYU wrote:Given their nigh-instantaneous dual-popularity here, the sheer frequency of their wins from the beginning, the lack of precedence of similar work winning regularly before, the increasing lack of quality in their pieces attached to similar winning percentages, the amount of votes they beat most other designs by, and their resurgence as a winning force to be reckoned with since the creation of a larger fog unseen in the hotness, after a number of slower months, I find it VERY hard to believe there is none of that shady past involved.


Oh please. None of this is hard proof, or even vaguely solid evidence. All it is is the angry conjecture of one poster who freely admits he has a personal vendetta against both artists. When you look deeper at the post, however, it becomes more than a misguided fearmongering diatribe.

Firstly, bear in mind that other things that Adder has listed as dishonest have included,"bringing people in from other sites" which is patently ridiculous. Nowhere on any woot site can I find a single mention of the illegality of advertising one's design on an exterior site.

Secondly, let me define what I would view as cheating on a derby. Gaming the system through technological means, (aka hacking of some sort) or by registering fake accounts and voting. Again, there is absolutely zero evidence for either of those occuring. I think Woot would have noticed by now if they were artificially inflating the vote count by hacking, and the idea that they are registering these multitudes of false accounts is ridiculous, as the very nature of the site prevents it. I doubt even the most desperate cheater would pay thousands of dollars for a shirt to win a derby. Adder and others suffer from a bad case of confusion of causation/correlation and a bias against the artists that manifests itself in interpretations of derby performances that, when viewed from a clear perspective, are laughable in their stupidity. Ramy or Seki winning by a large margin? Well, they can't possibly have a decent design that is well targeted with large amounts of popular appeal! Perish the thought! They must be cheating! What's this, Ramy and Seki are submitting more designs after a lull in activity? It can't possibly that one or both are simply tired of shirt design and wants to take a break! They MUST BE CHEATING!!!!

No.
Until I see solid, non biased information from a reliable source that doesn't rely on conjecture and strawman arguments, I will let Ramy and Seki be innocent until proven guilty. Unless Adder, along with redefining what art is, seeks to redefine the core idea of a system of justice as well? I wouldn't be surprised in the least.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
JaundiceDave wrote:snip


Actually, everything you quoted from Adder is true and documented by woot. They were immediately popular and no one had ever won with similar designs. The quality has decreased or at the very least not gotten better and they have increased their win percentage since the move to the new fog and hotness which would hide any vote tampering. While you may disagree with the conclusions reached, you also cannot argue that they have bee caught making fake accounts in the past (seki on DA) because it is a fact and documented. They also (potentially within the rules) had their family and friends sign up for tables at otakon so they could have an increased presence beyond what they were allowed to personally sign up for. They also disregarded the rules about displaying only 50% fanart until they were told by the con directors that they had to display original work. ramy said this himself.

What is funny is that you evidence against is even more speculative and to be honest based on less than the accusations that Adder is making. Even the wording you use shows that there is no evidence for any of it but you assume that it "must" be happening. As of this point, you can argue that Adder's points are circumstantial evidence of their actions here but it is evidence. You have no evidence whatsoever that anything you have stated is true.

JaundiceDave


quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
mrwednesday wrote:Actually, everything you quoted from Adder is true and documented by woot.


I freely admit some of it is, where my problem lies is how Adder and others interpret derby results. Is it true that they became popular quite quickly? Yes. Is it true that they have a high frequency of wins? Yes. How, though, is any of this indicative of cheating. Do you maybe not understand the causation/correlation idea? Perhaps a simple parable will help illustrate the concept. A Russian Tsar noticed that one province in his empire had the most sick people. He saw also that it had the most doctors. He put two and two together incorrectly and determined that it was the doctors that caused the sickness, and promptly ordered them all shot. Now if we apply the lessons from the parable to your accusations of cheating, what can we glean? Perhaps their popularity is due to their large following on other sites and the easy appeal of their designs, which though we both dislike them (though I can admit have popular appeal) are made to sell well. Adder and you, however, seem to view the success of any style you view as “not worthy” as incredibly suspicious if they do well in the derby. Why this is is beyond me.

They were immediately popular and no one had ever won with similar designs. The quality has decreased or at the very least not gotten better and they have increased their win percentage since the move to the new fog and hotness which would hide any vote tampering. While you may disagree with the conclusions reached, you also cannot argue that they have bee caught making fake accounts in the past (seki on DA) because it is a fact and documented. They also (potentially within the rules) had their family and friends sign up for tables at otakon so they could have an increased presence beyond what they were allowed to personally sign up for. They also disregarded the rules about displaying only 50% fanart until they were told by the con directors that they had to display original work. ramy said this himself.


I think I will address this paragraph point by point.

  • They were immediately popular and no one had ever won with similar designs. I have no idea how this is supposed to show cheating. As you freely admit, ramy and seki were very popular on several sites before coming to shirt.woot, and nowhere does it say that it is forbidden or discouraged to advertise or bring in fans from other sites.
  • The quality has decreased… which would hide any vote tampering. Nice run-on. Firstly, since you have such a derisive view of those who purchase their shirts, do you really think that they care if the quality of the designs goes down? If it has, it certainly has not to a notable extent. It has seemed somewhat impressive in its constant mediocrity. Regarding win percentages, again, how does this show cheating? If they are already winning, why would they possibly want to make it look more suspicious by artificially increasing the win percentage? The idea is nonsensical. And again, why would they need to hide their “vote tampering”? Woot knows the votes, and they are the only ones who matter who could care about cheating. What would ramy and seki achieve by trying to boost their win percentages in the advent of the new fog? There is no motivation, and any attempt to argue otherwise is inherently moot.
  • While you may disagree … said this himself.Am I supposed to care about their prior activities on Deviantart? The difference between face accounts there and on woot is huge, since , again, they would be paying thousands of dollars to win by the amounts you claim they fake, and would need to pay even more if they wanted to actively increase the percentage of votes they win by, another point you make. Why would they do this? It effectively cancels out all their profits. Again, no motivation, point is moot. Regarding their activities at Otakon: I actually read through the DA journals of the persons involved despite my deep-seated loathing for that horrible site and found your milquetoast disclaimer describing their antics as “potentially within the rules” was quite the understatement. What they did, as admitted by one of the self-described “victims” was completely within the rules, and the butthurt tears that resulted mean no more than the self-righteous anger at the supposed sins of (gasp) bringing in friends from other sites to help vote. As for the whole 50% fan art thing, who cares? It has nothing to do with the subject at hand (an internet t-shirt competition, in case you have forgotten) and serves only as vaguely insidious character assassination.



What is funny is that you evidence against is even more speculative and to be honest based on less than the accusations that Adder is making.


Are you joking? My evidence is your clear lack thereof, and is not speculation but simple logic and common sense to anyone with a clear head. I am not accusing anyone, simply pointing out the flaws in your argument which I feel have gone uncalled-out for far too long.

Even the wording you use shows that there is no evidence for any of it but you assume that it "must" be happening.


I’m confused. Are you referring to the mocking part of my past post where poke fun at the causation/correlation confusion that you and Adder seem to suffer? I’m not saying that they must be cheating, mrwednesday, but precisely the opposite. Perhaps I was mistaken in assuming that the sarcasm was clear.

As of this point, you can argue that Adder's points are circumstantial evidence of their actions here but it is evidence. You have no evidence whatsoever that anything you have stated is true.


Ah, and here we have a perfect wrap-up to a post, an ad homenim accusation wrapped up in a strawman, tied with a bow of deceptive language. You admit in the first sentence that the sacred tenets of your accusations of cheating are merely circumstantial, an illuminating viewpoint. You close by saying that I have no evidence of anything that I’ve said. Really? Really? Are you illiterate? I have backed up every single statement I have made with either facts of the record of common sense, and that is an objective fact. Compared to the “evidence” provided by you and Adder, I seem like a veritable Sherlock Holmes.

ep9683


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ep9683
mrwednesday wrote:You should listen based on the strength and validity of the evidence presented not your opinion of the person presenting it.


The "why should I should listen" part was based on the statement about how knowing more about Ramyb would affect my opinion of the shirt. I really am just curious Adder. I see Adder's posts here all the time and they are stated as though the opinions are fact. There are some facts but much of the interpretation of art is opinion. I do understand the mistakes and issues he points out but I take offense to telling people they are wrong for liking it. I honestly want to know what leads him to believe he is better than the rest of woot or specifically those who enjoy the shirts in question. Trying to guilt people into voting against what they like is not cool. End of semi-rant

Selene1212


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Selene1212

Not cute enough! LOL ;)

dsatele


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dsatele
kylemittskus wrote:You haven't been here long enough to go kicking people out.


Have I? If so, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
mrwednesday wrote:Kdeuce's was a lot more visually appealing as well. People vote the artist, pure and simple.


Once upon a time, kdeuce had unstoppable legions voting for identical, sloppy abstracts. We haven't seen much of him, tho, since Ramygate. Obviously we know whose "fanbase" is stronger. And we know much about the former's motivations for designing, as well.

IndependentVik


quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
JaundiceDave wrote:*long post refuting the "evidence" for cheating*


Great post, Dave. Is it possible they're cheating? Yes. Is there evidence for it? No. The evidence that's been cited wouldn't stand muster anywhere other than in front of a crazed mob. People are letting their hatred overcome their reasoning.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
ep9683 wrote:The "why should I should listen" part was based on the statement about how knowing more about Ramyb would affect my opinion of the shirt. I really am just curious Adder. I see Adder's posts here all the time and they are stated as though the opinions are fact. There are some facts but much of the interpretation of art is opinion. I do understand the mistakes and issues he points out but I take offense to telling people they are wrong for liking it. I honestly want to know what leads him to believe he is better than the rest of woot or specifically those who enjoy the shirts in question. Trying to guilt people into voting against what they like is not cool. End of semi-rant


That you can understand mistakes and issues I point out, yet cannot grasp why people are wrong for then wanting things so full of mistakes and issues, then you've just answered why I "believe [I am] better than... those who enjoy the shirts in question." All most people have is what I call "the Apple Jacks excuse"... ie: 'we eat what we like'. But if what "you like" has no value, you have to accept it has no value.

Point in Case: I own more CDs by The Presidents of the United States of America than Eric Clapton. This is not because I don't understand that Clapton is far more talented than the other guys, nor that I don't like Clapton's work... it's been mostly a matter of circumstances and moods. This said, if for some reason Clapton and the Presidents were competing for $1000 in some song-composing competition, and I voted for the dopes who wrote "Peaches," not the guy with decades of brilliant music and more guitar chops than a butcher has pork chops, I have an incredibly warped and wrong view. Aesthetics of any sort are about more than just opinion. You can talk about golden ratios, or artistic movements, or emotional connections... whatever the case, certain things are just undeniable. You can't deny that Jeff Buckley was more talented vocally than Lady Gaga, and if you do you don't have a right to talk. It's that obvious. And I think that woot's "quality" issues are similarly obvious. I feel I have given enough viable critiques to have my opinion trusted. Hell, even you seem to agree with much of what I note. People may not love my methods, but the fact is (and yes, this is studyable fact if you cared to look it up) most of the people who are against me cannot defend what they like with anything but "SALES SALES SALES I LIKE IT BLAH BLAH". They can't give reasons why it is better than something else. They cant give reasons they like it at all. They just do. And no matter what 80s cereal told you, that's not a viable excuse.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
IndependentVik wrote:Great post, Dave. Is it possible they're cheating? Yes. Is there evidence for it? No. The evidence that's been cited wouldn't stand muster anywhere other than in front of a crazed mob. People are letting their hatred overcome their reasoning.


There is no clouded reasoning over derby after derby of off-theme content.

There is no clouded reasoning over derby after derby of the same exact designs.

There is no clouded reasoning that Otakon itself does not say they cleared anyone, but that they were unable to prove anything. There is no clouded reasoning behind them saying the events raised sufficient concern. If everything was proven AOK, they would have no such concern.

It is no clouded reasoning to presume that a boy who has proven so disrespectful to every community he's ever been in doesn't care about anything but his own advancement. Go read his DA journal. Read him lashing out at photography and literature for daring get their own face time on DA. Read him explaining away why his work is sucking lately, and continually covering his ass for some controversy or another. Then come back here and read his responses to people. Look at his entries. Check out his diatribe during the "Basic Training" thread, where he accuses everyone BUT the one guy with a girlfriend who's been banned for cheating of manipulating votes, and then insists he will start trying out new styles, but never actually does, instead keeping safe in the same old moneymakers.

If you can go through that evidence and still like Ramy's work, and still sympathize with him, you are reaching for straws. There is plenty of evidence that should cast his true motives in light. All that should be needed to damn him is his continual lack of respect for the derby with off theme and uncreative work. This is incredibly hard to invalidate if you have any working knowledge of pop art, pop culture, this site, deviant art, the themes set forth... these are people who insist pointillism can use a flat base outline and still be pointillism. These are people who think that bears being the #1 enemy of America isn't Stephen Colbert's intellectual property, without any parodic element. These instances, weekly as they tend to be, should be enough to cast the two out forever. They do not play by the rules. Anyone can see that. That should be enough. But really, in the real world, anyone who has created the mass fraud Seki did at Deviant Art would never really be taken seriously anywhere else ever again. No one who followed it up with the Otakon incident would be welcomed anywhere. You may say there's no solid evidence, but there is nothing about either of them that makes them worthy of being allowed to profit further from activity which has been shady for years prior to woot. Activity which has been proven. Name one other place where you could create the sort of fraud Sekiyoku did at DA and then be allowed to participate in a similar community.

As for multiple accounts costing thousands of dollars? These two have made over 100K here. If they spent even 1% on fake accounts, they have 100. That isn't enough to win on its own, but it sure as hell is enough to help, and to keep some serious hotness exposure. Wake up.

Sales mean nothing. There are millions of wooters, and only thousands of voters. That their generic schlock wins weekly isn't proven by sales... of course generic schlock will sell. It just won't necessarily win to print. People can argue that there is no firm evidence that they are cheating, but there is even less that they aren't. There are plenty of proveable incidents of both of them ignoring rules for their own benefits. There are plenty of proveable incidents of them manipulating other communities for their own benefit. There is no reason we should be so naive as to think they wouldn't do the same here, and there is no reason we should allow them the chance.

Pinque13


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Pinque13

much better than last weeks entry, and def my style of shirt. Has my vote.

JaundiceDave


quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
Adder, I noticed that in your last two posts, you did not quote me at all and in fact only made one direct refutation of a point I had made, which was that they had enough money to register fake accounts. I have responded to this, and I would like to see you actually respond to the points I make, not go off on tangential character assassination.

-

This post will be long enough that I am going to have to break up this wall of text for easier reading. Thus, I will be splitting it into two parts. The first concerns the consistent allegations of cheating, which I feel I have sufficiently debunked here, but which AdderXYU continues to debate. The second part was not something I originally planned on including, but in the end I felt it essential. It concerns what I view as Adder’s harmful and deluded statements regarding art and freedom of choice.

N.B. To keep things simpler and to reduce the sheer aggravation of having to type their names over and over, I’ll refer to Ramy and Seki as R and S. No shirts were harmed in the writing of this post.

On Cheating
I’ll cut any expository introduction here and skip straight to the meat of my argument. The main thrust of my ideas on R and S’ cheating is thus: There is no even vaguely firm evidence linking them to any kind of cheating, which I define as gaming the system through technological means, (aka hacking of some sort) or by registering fake accounts and voting. I do NOT view asking friends on other sites to vote as cheating, and the same goes for anything not defined by Woot as a bannable offense. Adder and others have relied on conjecture fueled by personal dislike of the artists in question, and relentlessly attack them using strawman arguments that fail to stand to even the most cursory logical examination. Adder cites several ‘suspicious behaviors’, including their sudden burst of popularity and their sustained success, which in his eye is impossible from an artist he does not personally care for. I am also not a R and S fan, though I own one shirt by R (Blue Moon), but the behaviors he lists are easily explained in a vastly simpler way in accordance with Occam's Razor, namely that R and S have lots of exterior support and have a knack for creating designs that, while they aren’t the most appealing to me or to Adder, have (to me and to the majority of people) a clear popular appeal.

Adder also contends that R and S register new accounts, make a purchase with each of them, and then use them to “stuff the ballot box.” This, to me, is the most far-fetched and silly of the claims, for several reasons.

  • First, this would require a very sizable amount of money. While R and S have found plenty of success both on Woot and on other sites, I find it amusing to imagine that they would ferret away their winnings sitting in front of a computer for hours registering accounts (each with separate emails I might add) and making purchases with them simply to bump their votes by a few hundred.
  • Second, I have no lack of faith in the technical abilities of the Woot staff. If they noticed that several hundred people voted for R and S each week had only bought one item, never made posts, and probably had similar sounding names and were otherwise inactive on the site, would you not think that they might run an I.P address sweep on the votes? Or does Adder think that R and S are actually using separate I.P addresses for each account, an idea that is patently ridiculous.
  • Third, and last, this idea stands directly contrary to their immediate success on the site from their first derbies. Does Adder think that when they first started out here, they had the cash flow to create accounts and make purchases with them? Where would this money have come from? And why would R and S make such a risky move as to invest thousands of dollars in “startup costs” of a t-shirt regime?


In addition to these claims, Adder and others attempt to cast doubt over the character of R and S, bringing up past incidents and what they view as current misdeeds. I believe these to be blown out of proportion, and/or completely non-applicable to the situation at hand. First and foremost, Adder attempts to use their antics at Otakon 2008 and the website deviantart.com to convince the Woot populace that R and S are devious and cannot be trusted. At deviantart, S, there known as Amuria, created fake accounts to help up-rank her work, or at least that is how I understand it. While certainly in a moral grey area, this was within the site’s terms of use, as evidenced by the current successful existence of both R and S’ deviantart accounts. Perhaps Adder wishes to use that example to illustrate that R and S might be making fake accounts at Woot, however, I have already stated why I believe this to be an extreme unlikelihood. Continuing on. At Otakon 2008, R rented more tables than is customary in order to sell more art. Again, this was an action, that while viewed as immoral by some, was completely within the rules of the Con, as admitted by the “victims” of the event. In any case, this has nothing to do with an internet t-shirt competition, and is simply fodder for character assassination by Adder and others.

In conclusion, the whole idea that R and S are cheating is completely unfounded in any fact, and is riddled with logical fallacies. I believe that I have sufficiently and logically demonstrated this, and I would welcome any response.

-

On Art

It has always jumped out to me that Adder seems to have some interesting ideas about art; concerning namely exactly what it is, the superiority of one piece of art over another and whether people can be objectively wrong about the art that they enjoy.

Regarding the first part of that sentence (what art is), I find it handy to take a look at a comment Adder made on an S shirt when it won the derby last week. I found this phrase inherently ridiculous, and I hope you will agree.
Artists should profit from their work, not work for profit.

This is one of the silliest, and to me, offensive, phrases I have heard on this site. I am a working photographer. When I am paid to shoot a wedding, I create beautiful photos. I view them as art, the couple views them as art, and the world views them as art. I was paid to make them. Are those photos art now? Or are they inferior, somehow, to the photos I take on my off time, the stuff I don’t make specifically to get paid for, even though many of my wedding photos I view as better than my off-time photos. Or, for instance, think of Michaelangelo’s David. It was created for profit from the patronage of the Medicis. Would Adder look at that beautiful sculpture and say “Sorry, it was made for profit, it is not art.” Adder, I hate to break this to you, but every single shirt on woot and the vast majority elsewhere is created for profit. This is especially apparent in the derby, where all the shirts are made with the hope of getting printed and netting the artist profit. Yet, I would call every original design here art. Would Adder agree? Probably not.

This leads me to the second part of my argument, which is that Adder, in claiming the superiority of one type (or piece) of art over another, is ruining the very idea of what art is, which is that to the unbiased viewer, all art is completely equal. As he says,

You can't deny that Jeff Buckley was more talented vocally than Lady Gaga, and if you do you don't have a right to talk. It's that obvious.
While this statement is clearly slightly humorous in its writing, its meaning and the motives behind it are completely serious and, to me, disturbing. What if there were one person who really, with all their heart, believed that Lady Gaga was the best singer ever? That is viewpoint on art, and you cannot objectively tell someone that their view is incorrect and invalid, because that runs completely contrary to the very idea of art! When Adder decries all the people who buy R and S shirts as flawed in their perception of art, he is wrong, because NOBODY is flawed in their perception of art. The very concept is ridiculous! As another anecdote, I showed my little cousin a photo I took recently, and he looked up at me and said without a shred of doubt “That is the best photo ever!” I don’t think it is, but I didn’t try and correct him, because to him, to someone who believes in what they like, saying that what they like is not art is completely heartless, and I am amazed that someone whose self-professed goal on this site is to “maintain art” could hold such beliefs.

In conclusion, I have made my case that Adder’s views on art are extremely overreaching and flawed in their clear embodiment of his ego. For Adder, what he views as art is art, and everything else is not. That’s fine. What is NOT fine is telling other people what they can and cannot like. That was the reason that I have made these posts protesting his and his ideas, and it is the reason I will continue writing them, however long they may be.

P.S. I am not alone in my beliefs. I received a message from a popular, well-respected artist that Adder has praised in the past, with the subject: ‘You’re my Hero’, and continued
Thanks for pointedly sticking it to Adder and Wednesday. I have thought along the lines of many of your arguments but it's potential suicide for an artist to get too caught up in politik. I actually support Adder on some of his points too but it's infuriating when they use if/then logic that doesn't work and impose their personal preference as fact. Thanks


To that artist, thank you for the message. To everyone, thank you for reading this, all 1781 words of it, if you did. I really do appreciate it, and I feel that what I say is important. But hey, in the end:

jamescho84


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jamescho84
JaundiceDave wrote:Adder, I noticed that in your last two posts, you did not quote me at all and in fact only made one direct refutation of a point I had made, which was that they had enough money to register fake accounts. I have responded to this, and I would like to see you actually respond to the points I make, not go off on tangential character assassination.

-

This post will be long enough that I am going to have to break up this wall of text for easier reading. Thus, I will be splitting it into two parts. The first concerns the consistent allegations of cheating, which I feel I have sufficiently debunked here, but which AdderXYU continues to debate. The second part was not something I originally planned on including, but in the end I felt it essential. It concerns what I view as Adder’s harmful and deluded statements regarding art and freedom of choice.

N.B. To keep things simpler and to reduce the sheer aggravation of having to type their names over and over, I’ll refer to Ramy and Seki as R and S. No shirts were harmed in the writing of this post.

On Cheating
I’ll cut any expository introduction here and skip straight to the meat of my argument. The main thrust of my ideas on R and S’ cheating is thus: There is no even vaguely firm evidence linking them to any kind of cheating, which I define as gaming the system through technological means, (aka hacking of some sort) or by registering fake accounts and voting. I do NOT view asking friends on other sites to vote as cheating, and the same goes for anything not defined by Woot as a bannable offense. Adder and others have relied on conjecture fueled by personal dislike of the artists in question, and relentlessly attack them using strawman arguments that fail to stand to even the most cursory logical examination. Adder cites several ‘suspicious behaviors’, including their sudden burst of popularity and their sustained success, which in his eye is impossible from an artist he does not personally care for. I am also not a R and S fan, though I own one shirt by R (Blue Moon), but the behaviors he lists are easily explained in a vastly simpler way in accordance with Occam's Razor, namely that R and S have lots of exterior support and have a knack for creating designs that, while they aren’t the most appealing to me or to Adder, have (to me and to the majority of people) a clear popular appeal.

Adder also contends that R and S register new accounts, make a purchase with each of them, and then use them to “stuff the ballot box.” This, to me, is the most far-fetched and silly of the claims, for several reasons.

  • First, this would require a very sizable amount of money. While R and S have found plenty of success both on Woot and on other sites, I find it amusing to imagine that they would ferret away their winnings sitting in front of a computer for hours registering accounts (each with separate emails I might add) and making purchases with them simply to bump their votes by a few hundred.
  • Second, I have no lack of faith in the technical abilities of the Woot staff. If they noticed that several hundred people voted for R and S each week had only bought one item, never made posts, and probably had similar sounding names and were otherwise inactive on the site, would you not think that they might run an I.P address sweep on the votes? Or does Adder think that R and S are actually using separate I.P addresses for each account, an idea that is patently ridiculous.
  • Third, and last, this idea stands directly contrary to their immediate success on the site from their first derbies. Does Adder think that when they first started out here, they had the cash flow to create accounts and make purchases with them? Where would this money have come from? And why would R and S make such a risky move as to invest thousands of dollars in “startup costs” of a t-shirt regime?


In addition to these claims, Adder and others attempt to cast doubt over the character of R and S, bringing up past incidents and what they view as current misdeeds. I believe these to be blown out of proportion, and/or completely non-applicable to the situation at hand. First and foremost, Adder attempts to use their antics at Otakon 2008 and the website deviantart.com to convince the Woot populace that R and S are devious and cannot be trusted. At deviantart, S, there known as Amuria, created fake accounts to help up-rank her work, or at least that is how I understand it. While certainly in a moral grey area, this was within the site’s terms of use, as evidenced by the current successful existence of both R and S’ deviantart accounts. Perhaps Adder wishes to use that example to illustrate that R and S might be making fake accounts at Woot, however, I have already stated why I believe this to be an extreme unlikelihood. Continuing on. At Otakon 2008, R rented more tables than is customary in order to sell more art. Again, this was an action, that while viewed as immoral by some, was completely within the rules of the Con, as admitted by the “victims” of the event. In any case, this has nothing to do with an internet t-shirt competition, and is simply fodder for character assassination by Adder and others.

In conclusion, the whole idea that R and S are cheating is completely unfounded in any fact, and is riddled with logical fallacies. I believe that I have sufficiently and logically demonstrated this, and I would welcome any response.

-

On Art

It has always jumped out to me that Adder seems to have some interesting ideas about art; concerning namely exactly what it is, the superiority of one piece of art over another and whether people can be objectively wrong about the art that they enjoy.

Regarding the first part of that sentence (what art is), I find it handy to take a look at a comment Adder made on an S shirt when it won the derby last week. I found this phrase inherently ridiculous, and I hope you will agree.


To that artist, thank you for the message. To everyone, thank you for reading this, all 1781 words of it, if you did. I really do appreciate it, and I feel that what I say is important. But hey, in the end:


Manos: The Hands of Fate (1966). damn man lmao ffs

JaundiceDave


quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
jamescho84 wrote:Manos: The Hands of Fate (1966). damn man lmao ffs


What? Also, I just noticed the link is broken in the second paragraph of my post. The correct link is this. http://tinyurl.com/yf8pjex

fugrank


quality posts: 1 Private Messages fugrank
Re: Predator (v2!)


So, while it is somewhat circumstantial, and I don't know the history of derby votes vs shirts sold (certainly there is no 1:1 relationship). I would expect it to be somewhat proportional. In the previous derby Oops I missed, let me try again placed 2nd with 880 votes and sold 2299 shirts. However, Goldfish of Doom! placed 3rd with 819 votes and sold 2512 shirts. It is strange to me that the shirt with more votes would sell fewer shirts. That is all.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
JaundiceDave wrote:snip


I really liked this post. You managed to pack in all of the requisite buzz words all while circularly talking around the logic of all of your post. Completed by ignoring the relevant information. I see someone was in the debate club. If you talk long enough and say nothing, no one will even care to argue with you. I'll sum up concisely because I have no interest in the obfuscation (zomg! big words! I must be winning, mirite!) of the discussion.

Your points (quoted):

I think Woot would have noticed by now if they were artificially inflating the vote count by hacking, and the idea that they are registering these multitudes of false accounts is ridiculous, as the very nature of the site prevents it.


No one has ever accused them of hacking, though it is telling that your "evidence" is "I think" and that "the nature of the site (whatever that means) prevents it." Here we have a statement based on preconceived notions which have not been shown to be true.

I doubt even the most desperate cheater would pay thousands of dollars for a shirt to win a derby.


Again, you assume what must be going on. I buy a shirt about once a month. Over the course of a year that means I can have 12 voting accounts (it is easy enough to register multiple accounts and purchase from all of them, it's been done and woot doesn't view this as problematic). Now ramy and seki have made over $100,000 to date here at woot. Your assumption that the cost is the limiting factor goes right out the window.

I have yet to read through your even longer, and I'm sure even more flawed post but I'll respond initially now. You state at the outset that your previous "evidence" is rock solid, yet you have none. At best what you have here is assumptions based on assumptions. You don't even have correlation much less causation. I really hope the rest is not more of the same because if it is, I really am not looking forward to reading it.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
JaundiceDave wrote:lots of lol


I'll just respond to the cheating aspect for now.

The first concerns the consistent allegations of cheating, which I feel I have sufficiently debunked here


Your link is broken. Much like your argument and a reliable indicator of what is to come in your post.

There is no even vaguely firm evidence linking them to any kind of cheating, which I define as gaming the system through technological means, (aka hacking of some sort) or by registering fake accounts and voting.


Strawman. They are linked to cheating and have been punished for cheating elsewhere. To say that only their history at woot is applicable is a strawman argument. That it has not been proven here is neither here nor there. Woot has never said there is not cheating only that they think they have it under control. By there own admission there is cheating going on in the derby.

First, this would require a very sizable amount of money. While R and S have found plenty of success both on Woot and on other sites, I find it amusing to imagine that they would ferret away their winnings sitting in front of a computer for hours registering accounts (each with separate emails I might add) and making purchases with them simply to bump their votes by a few hundred.


Emails are not important though it only takes 30 seconds to set one up at yahoo or google. Wins are often decided by only a few votes (look at the last few derbies) so even 50 extra votes is significant. Also, they have made a sizable amount of money here and by selling their "art" at cons.

Second, I have no lack of faith in the technical abilities of the Woot staff. If they noticed that several hundred people voted for R and S each week had only bought one item, never made posts, and probably had similar sounding names and were otherwise inactive on the site, would you not think that they might run an I.P address sweep on the votes? Or does Adder think that R and S are actually using separate I.P addresses for each account, an idea that is patently ridiculous.


The massive amount of bugs that have cropped up in coding recently is a testament that woot staff is at the best extremely overworked. Second, you do not understand woot's account system. They do not under any circumstances restrict IP addresses. Many families have multiple accounts (one for each) and woot is fine with this. Secondly, given that they are at a university, there is no way for woot to authenticate IP as they are often randomly assigned. But again, IP address conflicts are meaningless, the only issue is credit card information which can be used once, changed and then used again to create a new account.

Third, and last, this idea stands directly contrary to their immediate success on the site from their first derbies. Does Adder think that when they first started out here, they had the cash flow to create accounts and make purchases with them? Where would this money have come from? And why would R and S make such a risky move as to invest thousands of dollars in “startup costs” of a t-shirt regime?


Selling their work at anime cons. As to the rest, your speculation is no better than anyone else's.

At deviantart, S, there known as Amuria, created fake accounts to help up-rank her work, or at least that is how I understand it. While certainly in a moral grey area, this was within the site’s terms of use, as evidenced by the current successful existence of both R and S’ deviantart accounts.


False. Amuria was banned for making fake accounts because it was against the terms of use. Not only do you not have evidence but what information you do have is wrong.

Continuing on. At Otakon 2008, R rented more tables than is customary in order to sell more art. Again, this was an action, that while viewed as immoral by some, was completely within the rules of the Con, as admitted by the “victims” of the event. In any case, this has nothing to do with an internet t-shirt competition, and is simply fodder for character assassination by Adder and others.


It have everything to do with their current success here. They broke ToU as DA to gain popularity. They did their best to manipulate the specified rules at Otakon to over represent themselves despite the fact that they knew it was frowned upon. And as you ignored before, they did not display original work until told to do so which did break the rules of the con. So we have a history of breaking rules, making fake accounts and disrespect for the artistic communities which they are members of. This does not show causation which no one has stated, but it is a very tight correlation and one that cannot be ignored if you want to pretend to be "logical."

Under any scientific approach, one would expect this correlation to continue in all venues. That we cannot test this prediction is irrelevant. People should still be aware of the information going in and if you actually took the time to get accurate information your "logic" would not be completely flawed.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
AdderXYU wrote:People can argue that there is no firm evidence that they are cheating, but there is even less that they aren't. There are plenty of proveable incidents of both of them ignoring rules for their own benefits. There are plenty of proveable incidents of them manipulating other communities for their own benefit. There is no reason we should be so naive as to think they wouldn't do the same here, and there is no reason we should allow them the chance.

Guilty until proven innocent, ah yes... the Adder American way. Not saying what you have stated is false... just sayin that's all. lolz

mrwednesday wrote:But again, IP address conflicts are meaningless, the only issue is credit card information which can be used once, changed and then used again to create a new account. .

Not arguing here, just curious. Are you able to sign up with a second account and still use the same credit card information? If you can then they should definitely do something about that.

Dealing with the whole IP issue would just be a pain in the bum for woot, because there are ways around hiding your IP and changing it very easily if they are using a personal computer at home and have the know-how. Restricting people to one account per card/billing address might be a good idea with the option to add a second card to the account in case somebody would like to use more than one. Somewhat how Amazon does it. Obviously at a smaller scale than Amazon. There are ways around that as well, but it's better than nothing.

nic22380


quality posts: 0 Private Messages nic22380
mikenytola wrote:Not arguing here, just curious. Are you able to sign up with a second account and still use the same credit card information? If you can then they should definitely do something about that.


Not sure about credit cards, but my husband and I have separate woot accounts but use the same PayPal account to buy our shirts.

Poraro


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Poraro

Don't you people have better things to do than write walls of text about ramy and seki all the time? Your arguments go around in circles every single week and it's getting really, really stupid.

Also, the fact mrwednesday has found them on other sites and found out they have been punished before really shows how much you need to move on with life.

paulkremer


quality posts: 4 Private Messages paulkremer
JaundiceDave wrote:
  • First, this would require a very sizable amount of money. While R and S have found plenty of success both on Woot and on other sites, I find it amusing to imagine that they would ferret away their winnings sitting in front of a computer for hours registering accounts (each with separate emails I might add) and making purchases with them simply to bump their votes by a few hundred.
  • Second, I have no lack of faith in the technical abilities of the Woot staff. If they noticed that several hundred people voted for R and S each week had only bought one item, never made posts, and probably had similar sounding names and were otherwise inactive on the site, would you not think that they might run an I.P address sweep on the votes? Or does Adder think that R and S are actually using separate I.P addresses for each account, an idea that is patently ridiculous.

  • First, I want to say that I am not joining in the group accusing anyone of cheating. I have no evidence one way or the other. But this is a paragraph written by an honest person who probably doesn't try to game systems. If it guaranteed me $1000 a week, I could easily imagine someone investing a few hundred a week at ensuring that win. And the best part about Woot is that once I've invested that money, I could use that investment EVERY week without spending another dime.

    As far as people who have only made 1 or 2 purchases and never post? You've just described easily the majority of Woot accounts. If a winning design has 1000 votes, odds are many more thousands saw it and didn't vote for it. You really think the majority of voters are posting on the boards? I would bet most of them don't even READ the boards.

    And why would R and S make such a risky move as to invest thousands of dollars in “startup costs” of a t-shirt regime?


    Ummm..isn't that the definition of business? Risking startup money in the hopes of making more later? Investing a few thousand dollars into an empire that eventually grossed hundreds of thousands seems like a very sound investment to me. I would invest tens of thousands of dollars if it made me hundreds of thousands later.

    It has always jumped out to me that Adder seems to have some interesting ideas about art; concerning namely exactly what it is, the superiority of one piece of art over another and whether people can be objectively wrong about the art that they enjoy. ***SNIP*** As another anecdote, I showed my little cousin a photo I took recently, and he looked up at me and said without a shred of doubt “That is the best photo ever!” I don’t think it is, but I didn’t try and correct him, because to him, to someone who believes in what they like, saying that what they like is not art is completely heartless, and I am amazed that someone whose self-professed goal on this site is to “maintain art” could hold such beliefs.


    I totally understand the point you are trying to make. I REALLY do. Many people think "artistic" things that the rest of us think is literally garbage. And in some cases, that art actually IS garbage. I agree it's very subjective, and nobody can be "wrong." However, in real life things don't work like this.

    What if your neighbor refused to mow his lawn, put old busted rusty cars in the front lawn, broke beer bottles all over the sidewalk, and scrawled foul graffiti all over his house? The entire neighborhood would be furious over this eyesore. But what if this neighbor decided that leaving his property looking like this was his "artistic expression?" According to your line of reasoning, he can't be wrong. If he believes it is art, than it obviously must be and his opinion must be respected. But that won't stop it from reducing property values and causing every normal person driving by to cringe. It won't stop his furious neighbors from petitioning the city to literally FORCE him to fix his property.

    No matter what a person views as art, the truth is that there ARE artistic principles that guide art, and a person with a fine eye can notice art that is better executed than others, just as a person with a trained palate can distinguish flavors in wine that others don't even understand. While Adder's opinion is not the end all of art, he's not wrong. Someone who says that Lady Gaga is a more gifted vocalist than a trained singer may not be "wrong" in having that opinion, but clearly, he doesn't understand the principles that guide vocalists.

    To say that Ramyb's and seki's latest efforts aren't poorly executed and substandard art is like saying that you appreciate the cat yowling next door as a superb vocalist. You might. But please, if you must, don't go on with a lengthy explanation of how well the cat yowling is an amazing example of vocals "to you"...it just makes you look silly.

    JustJiggles


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages JustJiggles
    Poraro wrote:Don't you people have better things to do than write walls of text about ramy and seki all the time? Your arguments go around in circles every single week and it's getting really, really stupid.

    Also, the fact mrwednesday has found them on other sites and found out they have been punished before really shows how much you need to move on with life.


    Kinda sounds like you are joining in on the argument there... Or is it just the one side that is stupid?

    paulkremer


    quality posts: 4 Private Messages paulkremer
    JaundiceDave wrote:I am a working photographer. When I am paid to shoot a wedding, I create beautiful photos. I view them as art, the couple views them as art, and the world views them as art. I was paid to make them. Are those photos art now? Or are they inferior, somehow, to the photos I take on my off time, the stuff I don’t make specifically to get paid for, even though many of my wedding photos I view as better than my off-time photos.


    I also am a working wedding photographer. Being in the same profession, you must notice the trend in the last few years towards "good enough." Losing any weddings to Aunt Jenny because she has a fancy camera and will do "good enough?" Seeing the dozens of new photographers popping up all over the place churning out "good enough?"

    And your customers. Have you noticed that lately more and more of them don't truly appreciate what a 'good' photograph is? A person can take a bad photograph and label it as art, but someone who understands the principles behind photography will be able to identify immediately what is wrong in the picture and why it isn't a good picture at all.

    It's true that all the entries on here could be labeled as "art," and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But Adder, many others, and myself are tired the substandard "good enough" mentality. The animals are poorly drawn? The idea is poorly executed? The same basic underlying form is used with different details plopped on it? Good enough. I would think that as a photographer you would be as infuriated as the rest of us that people don't care whether something is 'good,' just 'good enough.'

    tico0001


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages tico0001
    JaundiceDave wrote:
    -

    • First, this would require a very sizable amount of money. While R and S have found plenty of success both on Woot and on other sites, I find it amusing to imagine that they would ferret away their winnings sitting in front of a computer for hours registering accounts (each with separate emails I might add) and making purchases with them simply to bump their votes by a few hundred.
    • Second, I have no lack of faith in the technical abilities of the Woot staff. If they noticed that several hundred people voted for R and S each week had only bought one item, never made posts, and probably had similar sounding names and were otherwise inactive on the site, would you not think that they might run an I.P address sweep on the votes? Or does Adder think that R and S are actually using separate I.P addresses for each account, an idea that is patently ridiculous.
    • Third, and last, this idea stands directly contrary to their immediate success on the site from their first derbies. Does Adder think that when they first started out here, they had the cash flow to create accounts and make purchases with them? Where would this money have come from? And why would R and S make such a risky move as to invest thousands of dollars in “startup costs” of a t-shirt regime?


    I am, also, not saying that anyone is cheating... I just think it would be pretty easy, and the return well worth it.
    How long do you imagine it would take to create, say, 50 email accounts? I'm guessing that, if done efficiently, 1 hour. Now, I would call that an hour well spent!
    Also, many email providers allow you to setup aliases for your email. My current provider allows unlimited aliases. It would take me 15 mins to create 50 aliases managed from only one central account! And all that for FREE. No investment there...
    Then, it would take me maybe 2 months to purchase 1 item with each account. Some items on Woot go as low as 5 bucks plus shipping. So maybe I would spend 500 dollars on all that... Considering that the prize is 1000 dollars, that would double my investment in just 1 week!
    There... a little far fetched? Yes. But it would be easy. Am I wrong? I would love to be convinced that cheating would be more difficult.
    The only point here would be, how many "fake" votes would I need to guarantee a win?

    ~Tico

    ep9683


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages ep9683
    AdderXYU wrote:That you can understand mistakes and issues I point out, yet cannot grasp why people are wrong for then wanting things so full of mistakes and issues, then you've just answered why I "believe [I am] better than... those who enjoy the shirts in question." All most people have is what I call "the Apple Jacks excuse"... ie: 'we eat what we like'. But if what "you like" has no value, you have to accept it has no value.

    Point in Case: I own more CDs by The Presidents of the United States of America than Eric Clapton. This is not because I don't understand that Clapton is far more talented than the other guys, nor that I don't like Clapton's work... it's been mostly a matter of circumstances and moods. This said, if for some reason Clapton and the Presidents were competing for $1000 in some song-composing competition, and I voted for the dopes who wrote "Peaches," not the guy with decades of brilliant music and more guitar chops than a butcher has pork chops, I have an incredibly warped and wrong view. Aesthetics of any sort are about more than just opinion. You can talk about golden ratios, or artistic movements, or emotional connections... whatever the case, certain things are just undeniable. You can't deny that Jeff Buckley was more talented vocally than Lady Gaga, and if you do you don't have a right to talk. It's that obvious. And I think that woot's "quality" issues are similarly obvious. I feel I have given enough viable critiques to have my opinion trusted. Hell, even you seem to agree with much of what I note. People may not love my methods, but the fact is (and yes, this is studyable fact if you cared to look it up) most of the people who are against me cannot defend what they like with anything but "SALES SALES SALES I LIKE IT BLAH BLAH". They can't give reasons why it is better than something else. They cant give reasons they like it at all. They just do. And no matter what 80s cereal told you, that's not a viable excuse.


    I somewhat pity you if you truly believe you are better than people based on their opinions/votes in an internet T-shirt contest.

    That said, if the songwriting contest was about what you would purchase as in "I'd want one" then I would say voting for Clapton would be silly. As much as you may want this to be a valid art contest it will never happen. This is a place where people vote for and buy shirts for $10. I think you are looking for something here that is outside of the intention of the site. I understand that the people could rise up in the name of art and vote accordingly, but this site does not attract enough of that demographic.

    As for the Jeff Buckley/Lady Gaga comment, I couldn't name a Lady Gaga song until one was parodied on South Park. Her music is terrible. It is flat and uninspiring even in comparison with the genre it aspires to be in. Jeff Buckley was a phenomenal musician and singer, it was a true tragedy he passed away at such a young age. I think we will actually agree on the Jeff Buckley/Lady Gaga plane of thought.

    AdderXYU


    quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
    fugrank wrote:So, while it is somewhat circumstantial, and I don't know the history of derby votes vs shirts sold (certainly there is no 1:1 relationship). I would expect it to be somewhat proportional. In the previous derby Oops I missed, let me try again placed 2nd with 880 votes and sold 2299 shirts. However, Goldfish of Doom! placed 3rd with 819 votes and sold 2512 shirts. It is strange to me that the shirt with more votes would sell fewer shirts. That is all.


    Voters are a HUGE minority to wooters. I'd say maybe 2% of wooters vote (which would presume 20K voters minimum spread throughout the whole derby), and that's generous. Hypothetically, in any given derby, the very last ranked shirt COULD sell more than first. It's not rare or shocking, and it is part of why people who say sales speak for themselves are flat out wrong.

    ETA sources: My numbers here come from the shirt.woot FAQ, which, ever since I joined over two years ago, state that opening shirt.woot and not forcing people to register anew allowed them to say they opened with over a million registered members. I'm building my numbers off one million users, a number which was likely a small estimate then, and is surely far larger now, two years later.

    NellaYesac


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages NellaYesac
    Re: Predator (v2!)


    Did anybody else notice that a guy from the Beelzebubs on "The Sing Off" wearing Grim Optimism?

    Shirt.woot! getting some major publicity on NBC!

    AdderXYU


    quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
    tico0001 wrote:I am, also, not saying that anyone is cheating... I just think it would be pretty easy, and the return well worth it.
    How long do you imagine it would take to create, say, 50 email accounts? I'm guessing that, if done efficiently, 1 hour. Now, I would call that an hour well spent!
    Also, many email providers allow you to setup aliases for your email. My current provider allows unlimited aliases. It would take me 15 mins to create 50 aliases managed from only one central account! And all that for FREE. No investment there...
    Then, it would take me maybe 2 months to purchase 1 item with each account. Some items on Woot go as low as 5 bucks plus shipping. So maybe I would spend 500 dollars on all that... Considering that the prize is 1000 dollars, that would double my investment in just 1 week!
    There... a little far fetched? Yes. But it would be easy. Am I wrong? I would love to be convinced that cheating would be more difficult.
    The only point here would be, how many "fake" votes would I need to guarantee a win?

    ~Tico


    You don't even need a real email address to create an account.

    IndependentVik


    quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
    AdderXYU wrote:There is no clouded reasoning over derby after derby of off-theme content.

    There is no clouded reasoning over derby after derby of the same exact designs.

    There is no clouded reasoning that Otakon itself does not say they cleared anyone, but that they were unable to prove anything. There is no clouded reasoning behind them saying the events raised sufficient concern. If everything was proven AOK, they would have no such concern.

    It is no clouded reasoning to presume that a boy who has proven so disrespectful to every community he's ever been in doesn't care about anything but his own advancement. Go read his DA journal. Read him lashing out at photography and literature for daring get their own face time on DA. Read him explaining away why his work is sucking lately, and continually covering his ass for some controversy or another. Then come back here and read his responses to people. Look at his entries. Check out his diatribe during the "Basic Training" thread, where he accuses everyone BUT the one guy with a girlfriend who's been banned for cheating of manipulating votes, and then insists he will start trying out new styles, but never actually does, instead keeping safe in the same old moneymakers.

    If you can go through that evidence and still like Ramy's work, and still sympathize with him, you are reaching for straws. There is plenty of evidence that should cast his true motives in light. All that should be needed to damn him is his continual lack of respect for the derby with off theme and uncreative work. This is incredibly hard to invalidate if you have any working knowledge of pop art, pop culture, this site, deviant art, the themes set forth... these are people who insist pointillism can use a flat base outline and still be pointillism. These are people who think that bears being the #1 enemy of America isn't Stephen Colbert's intellectual property, without any parodic element. These instances, weekly as they tend to be, should be enough to cast the two out forever. They do not play by the rules. Anyone can see that. That should be enough. But really, in the real world, anyone who has created the mass fraud Seki did at Deviant Art would never really be taken seriously anywhere else ever again. No one who followed it up with the Otakon incident would be welcomed anywhere. You may say there's no solid evidence, but there is nothing about either of them that makes them worthy of being allowed to profit further from activity which has been shady for years prior to woot. Activity which has been proven. Name one other place where you could create the sort of fraud Sekiyoku did at DA and then be allowed to participate in a similar community.

    As for multiple accounts costing thousands of dollars? These two have made over 100K here. If they spent even 1% on fake accounts, they have 100. That isn't enough to win on its own, but it sure as hell is enough to help, and to keep some serious hotness exposure. Wake up.

    Sales mean nothing. There are millions of wooters, and only thousands of voters. That their generic schlock wins weekly isn't proven by sales... of course generic schlock will sell. It just won't necessarily win to print. People can argue that there is no firm evidence that they are cheating, but there is even less that they aren't. There are plenty of proveable incidents of both of them ignoring rules for their own benefits. There are plenty of proveable incidents of them manipulating other communities for their own benefit. There is no reason we should be so naive as to think they wouldn't do the same here, and there is no reason we should allow them the chance.


    Adder I agree with just about everything you had up near the top; there are PLENTY of reasons to be upset with ramy. So focus on those. There's no real evidence that he's manipulating votes, though. If you honestly feel that his being off-theme, for example, is proof that he's rigging votes, then I think you're delusional with hatred. And where did I say that I like ramy's work, exactly? I said there's no evidence he's cheating. The one has NOTHING to do with the other, so please don't put words in my mouth. Christ, you're like the resident Sith Lord. "With me or against me, there's nothing in between".

    It's like the 9/11 truthers. Yes, George Bush was likely the worst President we've ever had, for a list of reasons so long it makes my head hurt. But the people who think he was behind the attack on the twin towers are still crazy.

    AdderXYU


    quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
    IndependentVik wrote:Adder I agree with just about everything you had up near the top; there are PLENTY of reasons to be upset with ramy. So focus on those. There's no real evidence that he's manipulating votes, though. If you honestly feel that his being off-theme, for example, is proof that he's rigging votes, then I think you're delusional with hatred. And where did I say that I like ramy's work, exactly? I said there's no evidence he's cheating. The one has NOTHING to do with the other, so please don't put words in my mouth. Christ, you're like the resident Sith Lord. "With me or against me, there's nothing in between".

    It's like the 9/11 truthers. Yes, George Bush was likely the worst President we've ever had, for a list of reasons so long it makes my head hurt. But the people who think he was behind the attack on the twin towers are still crazy.


    I don't think that his lack of respect for the derby is proof of rigging votes. I think his past shadyness is proof that he's not above rigging votes, and to me, his continual flaunting of how he's apparently above the law, and continual submission of work that is subpar not only executionally, stylistically and conceptually, but also subpar based on the themes, is evidence that he is only here to profit. I feel there is evidence enough for that. I feel there is evidence enough to prove he HAS cheated, many times, in the past. And I feel the two together does not prove, but heavily implies that it is more likely he has done it here than that he hasn't.

    if it feels like a 'with me or against me' thing, that's because I don't think one can be in a grey area on this. Either you're OK with a proven charlatain profiting off completely generic, repetitive, and off-theme work that is quite likely making a killing partly from cheating, or you are not. I really don't see where the grey area is... people who think it's wrong but think it's wrong to say it's wrong?

    You're right, though. It's exactly like the "Truthers". Only, I believe the pro-Ramy side is the one grasping at straws. All signs point to a shady character who shouldn't be here. All signs point to an inveterate cheat. just like all signs point to the truthers being wrong. People don't manufacture reasons to hate Ramy. There are plenty out there that are viable, and they lead to rational conclusions... you may say it is wrong to state he's cheating here as a fact, but it is not remotely wrong to infer that it is fully possible and even likely. It is the other side which uses information with no context to imply that the facts mean nothing.

    KevinMCombes


    quality posts: 14 Private Messages KevinMCombes

    I'll just throw this point into the wind again...

    A very large portion of wooters might spend 60 seconds total looking at the derby. Drop in, sort by votes, and click "I'd want one" on the shiny, easy to recognize figures at the top. Great designs are often so nuanced that they require a lot more time to be appreciated. Ramyoku shirts take maybe 3 seconds to understand. And for the passing voter, that's what sells.

    It's unfortunate, but true. I know people who buy ramyoku shirts. They only care that it's "funny". Not artistic.

    IndependentVik


    quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
    AdderXYU wrote:I don't think that his lack of respect for the derby is proof of rigging votes. I think his past shadyness is proof that he's not above rigging votes, and to me, his continual flaunting of how he's apparently above the law, and continual submission of work that is subpar not only executionally, stylistically and conceptually, but also subpar based on the themes, is evidence that he is only here to profit. I feel there is evidence enough for that. I feel there is evidence enough to prove he HAS cheated, many times, in the past. And I feel the two together does not prove, but heavily implies that it is more likely he has done it here than that he hasn't.


    Sure, it implies. It can imply to high heaven, but can you imagine anyone using this as evidence that would result in a guilty ruling in a court of law? I certainly can't, and that's why I can't take your leap with you from "possible" to "likely".

    Incidentally, it's not like I'm entirely unconvinced that he's above rigging votes, if he had to, but Occam's razor being what it is, I'm more apt to believe that, since voters often vote up uninspired designs in derbies without ramy, they're just as likely to vote up uninspired designs in derbies with ramy.

    If the kind of things he won with fell outside the usual pattern of voter behavior I'd be more inclined to believe that voting irregularities were occurring.

    wootasourous


    quality posts: 119 Private Messages wootasourous
    IndependentVik wrote:Sure, it implies. It can imply to high heaven, but can you imagine anyone using this as evidence that would result in a guilty ruling in a court of law? I certainly can't, and that's why I can't take your leap with you from "possible" to "likely".

    Incidentally, it's not like I'm entirely unconvinced that he's above rigging votes, if he had to, but Occam's razor being what it is, I'm more apt to believe that, since voters often vote up uninspired designs in derbies without ramy, they're just as likely to vote up uninspired designs in derbies with ramy.

    If the kind of things he won with fell outside the usual pattern of voter behavior I'd be more inclined to believe that voting irregularities were occurring.


    I know I've clashed with you in the past Vik, but I'm glad you are saying this, because honestly, I didn't know how to say it. Earned a lot of respect for you, maybe you aren't that bad after all. :P

    AdderXYU


    quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
    IndependentVik wrote:Sure, it implies. It can imply to high heaven, but can you imagine anyone using this as evidence that would result in a guilty ruling in a court of law? I certainly can't, and that's why I can't take your leap with you from "possible" to "likely".

    Incidentally, it's not like I'm entirely unconvinced that he's above rigging votes, if he had to, but Occam's razor being what it is, I'm more apt to believe that, since voters often vote up uninspired designs in derbies without ramy, they're just as likely to vote up uninspired designs in derbies with ramy.

    If the kind of things he won with fell outside the usual pattern of voter behavior I'd be more inclined to believe that voting irregularities were occurring.


    I guess for me, Occam's razor also works that if person A is known for cheating and manipulating throughout numerous avenues, whether it be a girlfriend who has been banned from a site twice for literally hundreds of fake accounts, or twisting the rules at conventions just enough to sneak by with an advantage, and person A ends up being wildly successful out of nowhere at a new place, totally based on vote accounts, where his style has never been a surefire winner before, yet he blows past competition weekly, despite having incredibly mediocre work, to me the simplest excuse is that he is cheating, like every other thing he's put his time into.

    You can certainly invoke the "people are complete idiots" thing, as well, because certainly it plays into it, but I'd say people being idiots is all the more reason to limit the power of their idiocity. It all comes down to blocking the lowest common denominator's power and standing up for diversity and quality. I see no loss in getting rid of two proven cheats from this site, whether they are or aren't cheating here: they sure as hell are manipulating and not playing by any appreciable reading of "the rules".

    muk1


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages muk1
    mrwednesday wrote:
    Strawman. They are linked to cheating and have been punished for cheating elsewhere. To say that only their history at woot is applicable is a strawman argument.


    Sooooo... in a discussion regarding accusations that an artist has cheated in the derby, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim is a 'strawman' argument???

    HalfWheat


    quality posts: 18 Private Messages HalfWheat
    mikenytola wrote:Not arguing here, just curious. Are you able to sign up with a second account and still use the same credit card information? If you can then they should definitely do something about that.



    Yes, you can. I signed up here first, and when hubby signed up later to buy something, he used the same card, no problem. The only difficulty was when we both were going to buy the same item on the same day. It said we already ordered that item that day.

    AdderXYU


    quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
    muk1 wrote:Sooooo... in a discussion regarding accusations that an artist has cheated in the derby, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim is a 'strawman' argument???


    In a discussion regarding accusations that an artist is a cheat, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim in the derby is a 'strawman' argument, because there is plenty of evidence proving they have cheated multiple times elsewhere. Insignificant things like seki bidding on Ramy's auctions in otaku webgames, to boost his winnings, to the big ticket frauds like the aforementioned 200 fake DA accounts, to defrauding Otakon with falsely registered tables they couldn't prove... there's plenty of evidence, and even proof, that they have cheated. To imply that this doesn't relate to woot is fraudulent to the core. It most certainly does relate to here. If there is no certain proof of Ramy or Seki cheating here, but there is certain proof of it elsewhere, pretending it has never happened is a flat out lie, and that it HAS happened, and often, means that it should ALWAYS be an eventuality that wooters realize and keep tabs on, and they should vote accordingly.

    odysseyroc


    quality posts: 33 Private Messages odysseyroc
    AdderXYU wrote:In a discussion regarding accusations that an artist is a cheat, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim in the derby is a 'strawman' argument, because there is plenty of evidence proving they have cheated multiple times elsewhere. Insignificant things like seki bidding on Ramy's auctions in otaku webgames, to boost his winnings, to the big ticket frauds like the aforementioned 200 fake DA accounts, to defrauding Otakon with falsely registered tables they couldn't prove... there's plenty of evidence, and even proof, that they have cheated. To imply that this doesn't relate to woot is fraudulent to the core. It most certainly does relate to here. If there is no certain proof of Ramy or Seki cheating here, but there is certain proof of it elsewhere, pretending it has never happened is a flat out lie, and that it HAS happened, and often, means that it should ALWAYS be an eventuality that wooters realize and keep tabs on, and they should vote accordingly.


    I think part of the problem here might be that people want to believe that others live by the same code as themselves. They wouldn't cheat and couldn't image that Ramy or Seki would possibly do it.

    The part that people seem to miss is that you aren't saying they 100% unequivocally are cheating and you have concrete proof. But, they do have a history of questionable activity and there are some things here that raise eyebrows. I'm of the opinion that people who've gamed the system and benefited from it, will continue to game the system.

    Maybe you're like Jim Jones and have brain washed me, but after reading your posts I've noticed some weird things. Like how they can post a design at any time, and is shoots right to the top of the list, but it never really happens for anybody else.

    I disagree with a lot of your views on art and artists, but I do respect your passion for art. I'm glad that there is somebody like you here trying to keep the designers honest.





    palookaboy


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy
    muk1 wrote:Sooooo... in a discussion regarding accusations that an artist has cheated in the derby, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim is a 'strawman' argument???


    A man convicted of snuffleupagus in the states of Illinois, Indiana and Ohio is accused of snuffleupagus in the state of Wisconsin, with evidence to suggest he is guilty. His lawyer's defense is, "Yes, but has he ever been convicted of snuffleupagus in Wisconsin?"

    That most certainly is a weak argument.

    I wouldn't argue that there is proof of cheating here, because there is none. There is, however, plenty of evidence to suggest that he is at the very least capable and willing to cheat, if not likely doing so.

    As there is no proof of Ramy cheating at woot, he can/should not be banned from woot (until such evidence should present itself). However, that does not disqualify anyone from coming to entirely valid conclusions and wishing to express those conclusions to the community in hopes that they will be informed of who and what they are voting for and buying from.

    palookaboy


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy

    Aaaaaaaaand the woot filter turned a violent sexual crime into snuffleupagus. I trust my point was made clear.

    IndependentVik


    quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
    Adder, I would like very much to come to _some_ kind of common ground with you on this issue. I've left unquoted the part of your message where you went into the evidence. It just doesn't convince me. If I were on a jury, it wouldn't be enough for me to send a man to jail. I could argue why, but we'd be back and forth on it all night, and neither of us would convince the other. You do find it convincing, however, and you have as much right to be persuaded by that line of reasoning as I am not to be. I hope we can just leave that argument at that.

    In the interest of that aforementioned common ground, I'll quote another part of your post.

    AdderXYU wrote:
    You can certainly invoke the "people are complete idiots" thing, as well, because certainly it plays into it, but I'd say people being idiots is all the more reason to limit the power of their idiocity. It all comes down to blocking the lowest common denominator's power and standing up for diversity and quality. I see no loss in getting rid of two proven cheats from this site, whether they are or aren't cheating here: they sure as hell are manipulating and not playing by any appreciable reading of "the rules".


    If woot wanted to ban designers for the sole reason of upping the quality of the submitted designs, I would back that move 100%.

    No other reason for a ban is needed. I want better work to be rewarded, too.

    risingfalls


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages risingfalls
    snarkygal wrote:I want quality designs that I wouldn't be ashamed of walking down the street in. I'm not 12. I don't wear cute and shiny or generic stuff like this that I could go into any store and buy. I come here for original designs that appeal to me. None have in a very long time unfortunately.


    Don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this for my first post on shirt.woot, but I have to wonder. Seeing statements like these...

    Why do you guys even bother hanging around here anymore if nothing has come around that you've liked in a long while? Make you're own site, get stuff printed that you like. All the negative stuff I've been reading since I joined shirt.woot is a big off put.

    Whistle tips go: Woot ~ woot!

    muk1


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages muk1
    palookaboy wrote:Aaaaaaaaand the woot filter turned a violent sexual crime into snuffleupagus. I trust my point was made clear.


    I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm thankful for that.

    IndependentVik


    quality posts: 11 Private Messages IndependentVik
    palookaboy wrote:A man convicted of snuffleupagus in the states of Illinois, Indiana and Ohio is accused of snuffleupagus in the state of Wisconsin, with evidence to suggest he is guilty. His lawyer's defense is, "Yes, but has he ever been convicted of snuffleupagus in Wisconsin?"

    That most certainly is a weak argument.


    Wow, snuffleupagus, huh? You couldn't have picked a more inflammatory analogy? But the simple truth is that if there was no proof of snuffleupagus in the latest case, none, then you can't possibly convict. That's how the rule of law works. Substitute "burglary" in for your emotionally charged example and you'll see that it sounds ridiculous.

    You can't tell me a judge wouldn't throw a DA out of his court who tried to say, "Your honor, we have no solid proof of the defendant doing this particular burglary that took place last week--no eyewitnesses, dna tests, nothing--but we _can_ tell you that he committed burglary two years ago."

    It can make you wary of the individual in question, certainly. I wouldn't want someone with that past in my home so he could possibly case it for a future crime. But you can't use that to get a conviction. Heck, I'm not even talking about ramy anymore. It just disturbs me that this is how people think the justice system works.

    You can use past behavior to _support_ other kinds of evidence, but if that's all you've got, you're screwed.

    The equivalent on the side of the defense is that you have an eyewitness, fingerprints on the murder weapon, and a motive, and all the defense has is a line of character witnesses talking about what an awesome guy he is. He needs an alibi or a lead on the real murderer, or a flaw in the prosecution's motive or _something_ real. Because, yeah, sure, even if the jury believes the character witnesses that he's an awesome guy, that doesn't automatically make him innocent of the crime in question.

    The converse is also true. A guy could be the biggest scumbag in the world. That doesn't make him automatically guilty of the crime you're accusing him of.

    (I'd like to reiterate I'm not applying any of this to ramy any longer, so I don't want to get into an argument about how these analogies do or do not apply to him. I'm talking about actual law here b/c I'm appalled that someone would suggest people should/could be convicted solely on the basis of past behavior.)

    muk1


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages muk1
    AdderXYU wrote:In a discussion regarding accusations that an artist is a cheat, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim in the derby is a 'strawman' argument, because there is plenty of evidence proving they have cheated multiple times elsewhere.


    When one accuses another of cheating in a particular arena, asking that individual for evidence of that accusation is not a 'strawman' argument by any definition of the term. The fact that there apparently isn't any tangible evidence of cheating at Woot is clearly relevant.

    That doesn't mean the history of these artists is irrelevant. But there is an elephant sized hole in the 'they're cheating!' argument, which is they also sell an enormous amount of shirts. Which means their shirts resonate with a large number of buyers, whether you or I agree that they should. And if they resonate with buyers, it is not a stretch to imagine that they may resonate with voters as well.

    Given that there is a logical explanation for why these shirts get a lot of votes, accusations of cheating do appear to have a certain tinfoil-hat element to them, and so I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some evidence, any evidence, that it's happening here.



    MissFortune


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages MissFortune
    risingfalls wrote:Don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this for my first post on shirt.woot, but I have to wonder. Seeing statements like these...

    Why do you guys even bother hanging around here anymore if nothing has come around that you've liked in a long while? Make you're own site, get stuff printed that you like. All the negative stuff I've been reading since I joined shirt.woot is a big off put.


    Shhhhhh. don't tell them. (i know i keep tabs on at least 9 different shirt sites, with 8 of those doing a new shirt a day during the week. i honestly haven't seen shirts i really wanted on whoot in a long time.)
    odds are though if a design fails here it'll shop up on threadless after the 60 days is up.

    NellaYesac


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages NellaYesac
    AdderXYU wrote:
    Either you're OK with a proven charlatain profiting off completely generic, repetitive, and off-theme work that is quite likely making a killing partly from cheating, or you are not.



    Anybody else find it great that Adder is using the word charlatan to describe Ramyb?

    Huzzah for commedia dell'arte!

    Either that, or props to use of a thesaurus.

    Addy is bringing back all the tools of the past in this argument!

    bradyson


    quality posts: 4 Private Messages bradyson
    sefjwm wrote:Yay now I don't have to drive down to Walmart.


    Bazinga!

    :c)

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    muk1 wrote:When one accuses another of cheating in a particular arena, asking that individual for evidence of that accusation is not a 'strawman' argument by any definition of the term. The fact that there apparently isn't any tangible evidence of cheating at Woot is clearly relevant.

    That doesn't mean the history of these artists is irrelevant. But there is an elephant sized hole in the 'they're cheating!' argument, which is they also sell an enormous amount of shirts. Which means their shirts resonate with a large number of buyers, whether you or I agree that they should. And if they resonate with buyers, it is not a stretch to imagine that they may resonate with voters as well.

    Given that there is a logical explanation for why these shirts get a lot of votes, accusations of cheating do appear to have a certain tinfoil-hat element to them, and so I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some evidence, any evidence, that it's happening here.


    People assume that since they haven't been banned for cheating, or anyone for that matter, that it hasn't been discovered. We have no evidence that anyone has cheated, but we also have no evidence that no was has cheated as well. Only woot knows what cheating they have discovered and what more might be out there and they do not share this information. The only thing they have admitted is that it is a problem and that they are seeing instances of vote stuffing from fake accounts.

    All we can conclude is that no one has currently been tied to the fake accounts. To make this more clear, if you walk a blind man into a room and ask him if there is a lamp in the corner, does the fact that he is absolutely incapable of seeing mean that the simplest answer is "no there isn't a lamp?"

    muk1


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages muk1
    mrwednesday wrote:Only woot knows what cheating they have discovered and what more might be out there and they do not share this information. The only thing they have admitted is that it is a problem and that they are seeing instances of vote stuffing from fake accounts.


    I think I must be misunderstanding you. It sounds like you are suggesting that woot may be aware that ramy and seki are cheating but not doing anything about it - that woot is in on the 'conspiracy' as well. I can't imagine that is really what you are trying to say.

    Would you be able to point me to the messages from Woot acknowledging a problem with fake accounts? I certainly don't doubt you, I'd just like to understand the context of their comments. It was pretty obvious something very questionable was going on with "I Like Candy", was it related to that? Drakxxx seems like a standup guy that is beyond reproach, but the extenuating circumstances in that derby may have lead others to stoop pretty low.

    ReallyFakeAccount


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages ReallyFakeAccount
    AdderXYU wrote:You don't even need a real email address to create an account.


    Ok... that worked... this is too funny... I can't believe the system doesn't ask you to confirm your email account.
    Now, can I buy items here without ever checking the fake email account?

    ~FauxTico

    NellaYesac


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages NellaYesac
    sefjwm wrote:Yay now I don't have to drive down to Walmart.


    Not going to lie, this is pretty funny...but I do still enjoy this shirt.

    Aberrantic


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages Aberrantic
    ArchAdder wrote:You know it's really funny... If Drakxxx submitted this exact design, the only argument about the situation would be who gets to blow him first, Adder or MrWednesday...

    ... They throw fists to get the first taste!


    Thank you for bringing the intelligence of the discussion down to the level of drunk high school boys. Real useful.
    And the fact is that Drakxxx a) wouldn't submit something like this because it's not his style and he does have at least a little bit of creativity (although I'd say he has more than a little) and b) even if he did, Adder and Wednesday wouldn't support it. Go over to Cho's shirt and you'll see one of them getting on him for a lack of creativity and Cho is one of the best and most respected artists to pass through shirt woot.
    There's no need to post Manos: The Hands of Fate (1966) like that so stop. I expect woot will get around to deleting it at some point.

    Earlysong


    quality posts: 21 Private Messages Earlysong
    ArchAdder wrote:You know it's really funny... If Drakxxx submitted this exact design, the only argument about the situation would be who gets to blow him first, Adder or MrWednesday...

    ... They throw fists to get the first taste!


    tattletattletattletattle

    I love this website! ^^

    kawaiikes


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages kawaiikes
    Re: Predator (v2!)


    Wow Ramyb, I must say, I'm impressed.

    Lately I've felt some of your designs have been a bit simplistic and perhaps below par, but this one is right up where I think it should be.

    Great use of colour. GREAT style. Simplistic but powerful design. And so wearable, too.

    Great job on this one.

    marzipanapple


    quality posts: 7 Private Messages marzipanapple
    IndependentVik wrote:I'm talking about actual law here b/c I'm appalled that someone would suggest people should/could be convicted solely on the basis of past behavior.)


    While I have little faith in past offenders changing their ways(particularly adults), I still absolutely agree with Vik here. Blaming someone when you have no proof isn't accurate, and using past offenses as proof isn't proof at all.

    Also, I'd like to point this slightly depressing but true point: When they had all those tables at Otakon? People were buying their stuff. There is no reason to think that buyers/voters here have any more taste than those buying their prints at Otakon.

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    muk1 wrote:I think I must be misunderstanding you. It sounds like you are suggesting that woot may be aware that ramy and seki are cheating but not doing anything about it - that woot is in on the 'conspiracy' as well. I can't imagine that is really what you are trying to say.

    Would you be able to point me to the messages from Woot acknowledging a problem with fake accounts? I certainly don't doubt you, I'd just like to understand the context of their comments. It was pretty obvious something very questionable was going on with "I Like Candy", was it related to that? Drakxxx seems like a standup guy that is beyond reproach, but the extenuating circumstances in that derby may have lead others to stoop pretty low.


    Basically all anyone knows about it has been stated here. They have never mentioned specific shirts or artists, just that when they have seen suspicious patterns they believe that they have it under control and are aware of the problem. That is all anyone can say. I nor anyone else have or will state that ramy has been caught cheating. They haven't and even if they have, woot isn't telling. What that also means is that people cannot equate not having evidence for cheating with there not being evidence for cheating because we know nothing about the cheating that has been caught.

    JaundiceDave


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
    mrwednesday wrote:People assume that since they haven't been banned for cheating, or anyone for that matter, that it hasn't been discovered. We have no evidence that anyone has cheated, but we also have no evidence that no was has cheated as well. Only woot knows what cheating they have discovered and what more might be out there and they do not share this information. The only thing they have admitted is that it is a problem and that they are seeing instances of vote stuffing from fake accounts.


    Responding to your individual points is hopeless if you continue to reduce the argument to this. Seriously, "We have no evidence that anyone has cheated, but we also have no evidence that no was has cheated as well"? Are you joking? What a ridiculous statement. The burden of proof lies entirely on the accuser, and that you seem to not realize this is amazing to me.

    As for the second part of your statement, the way you've worded it is again disingenuous. You say that woot may or may have not found cheating. Ooooh, how mysterious. If they have? Why the hell haven't they done anything about it? It would be child's play to link fake accounts to their creators, as they would be voting for their shirts and acting in otherwise suspicious ways. Do you honestly think that woot staff are that dim? Or are you perhaps suggesting that they are in league with R and S? With the tinfoil hat paranoia you possess, I would not be surprised in the least.

    JaundiceDave


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
    paulkremer wrote:I also am a working wedding photographer. Being in the same profession, you must notice the trend in the last few years towards "good enough." Losing any weddings to Aunt Jenny because she has a fancy camera and will do "good enough?" Seeing the dozens of new photographers popping up all over the place churning out "good enough?"

    And your customers. Have you noticed that lately more and more of them don't truly appreciate what a 'good' photograph is? A person can take a bad photograph and label it as art, but someone who understands the principles behind photography will be able to identify immediately what is wrong in the picture and why it isn't a good picture at all.

    It's true that all the entries on here could be labeled as "art," and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But Adder, many others, and myself are tired the substandard "good enough" mentality. The animals are poorly drawn? The idea is poorly executed? The same basic underlying form is used with different details plopped on it? Good enough. I would think that as a photographer you would be as infuriated as the rest of us that people don't care whether something is 'good,' just 'good enough.'


    Thank you for your well-written cohesive reply. It's good to see another photographer here. What you seem to be saying is that you and others are tired of this "good-enough" mentality, and to an extent I agree. However, I have two problems.

    First, it really is the perogative of the person choosing the shirt (or photographer) to make a good choice. If they pick a bad design (like most of R and S') or have Aunt Jenny bust out the easyshare for the wedding, it will be them who pays in the end for their lack of quality. It is entirely within their rights, though, to pick what they choose. I firmly believe that there are enough people who have good taste in photos and shirts to keep the better end of the market and will continue to be for the forseeable future.

    Second, I find Adder's way of dealing with the "good enough" mentality to be completely wrong headed. Why does he care if people buy shirts he doesn't like? It's not his place or anyone else's to tell people they made a horrible decision, for if they did they will pay for it in the long run. If a R shirt is good enough for them, that's fine. If Aunt Jenny takes good enough pictures, it's fine. I can rest easy knowing people will always want quality goods, and Adder just needs to chillax.

    TheyKilledKenny


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages TheyKilledKenny
    ArchAdder wrote:You know it's really funny... If Drakxxx submitted this exact design, the only argument about the situation would be who gets to blow him first, Adder or MrWednesday...

    ... They throw fists to get the first taste!


    C'Mon I strongly suspect suspect Draxxx would not throw a bloody crow against the wall... I have not seen such violence from him...

    Excuse Me Maam, Your Woot is Showing...

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    JaundiceDave wrote:Responding to your individual points is hopeless if you continue to reduce the argument to this. Seriously, "We have no evidence that anyone has cheated, but we also have no evidence that no was has cheated as well"? Are you joking? What a ridiculous statement. The burden of proof lies entirely on the accuser, and that you seem to not realize this is amazing to me.

    As for the second part of your statement, the way you've worded it is again disingenuous. You say that woot may or may have not found cheating. Ooooh, how mysterious. If they have? Why the hell haven't they done anything about it? It would be child's play to link fake accounts to their creators, as they would be voting for their shirts and acting in otherwise suspicious ways. Do you honestly think that woot staff are that dim? Or are you perhaps suggesting that they are in league with R and S? With the tinfoil hat paranoia you possess, I would not be surprised in the least.


    You won't speak about any of them because you can't because you at best your logic is weak and most of it is severely flawed and based on incorrect information. To add to this, if you had read the post by Joel in the link I provided you would see that they are deliberately withholding information so that they do not have an arms race with cheaters where they change their tactics after they learn that woot knows about them. For now they are content that they are catching cheating and that the cheating parties do not know they are being caught. So again, your entire post is massively flawed and again based on incorrect information.

    paulkremer


    quality posts: 4 Private Messages paulkremer
    JaundiceDave wrote:
    Second, I find Adder's way of dealing with the "good enough" mentality to be completely wrong headed. Why does he care if people buy shirts he doesn't like? It's not his place or anyone else's to tell people they made a horrible decision, for if they did they will pay for it in the long run. If a R shirt is good enough for them, that's fine. If Aunt Jenny takes good enough pictures, it's fine. I can rest easy knowing people will always want quality goods, and Adder just needs to chillax.


    I do agree with you. The hard part about this is that Woot USED TO BE one of those sites that offered up great artwork with clever concepts. I haven't been here since the beginning, but I remember when I actually had to set a budget at Woot each month and was sad when more good shirts than I could afford were available. You got great shirts printed on AA for $10! It was great!

    Lately though, we're lucky if 1 shirt a month lives up the old standard. The quality of the art has severely decreased, and instead of seeing "new and creative" printing, we are seeing the same old designs printing week after week. Don't get me wrong. Those same artists that gave us new and creative are still here, and still giving it to us. But they aren't printing anymore. They have been eclipsed almost weekly by R and S. Now, instead of fighting for 3 spots, the designers giving us what Woot USED TO BE about are fighting for 1 spot.

    I think one of the reasons Adder is so upset (and I am upset too, although not to the same extent) is that voters don't seem to care at all about the quality level of the designs or the reputations of the artists they vote for. And even worse, neither does Woot. It's like watching your favorite restaurant slowly get worse and worse to the point you can hardly stand going anymore. Of course there are other restaurants, and a lot of people will go elsewhere. Adder on the other hand wants to fight to make things change...after all, that's the only way they will.

    I am not quite as vocal about it, nor would I be quite as mean-spirited, but I do agree with the principles behind why Adder posts. If you'd seen what Woot used to be, you might find yourself in the same boat.

    jermandaim


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages jermandaim

    Awesome design and I hope it gets printed!

    j0naht


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages j0naht
    Re: Predator (v2!)


    RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!

    gargrazz


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages gargrazz
    KevinMCombes wrote:They only care that it's "funny". Not artistic.


    ...and they're so rarely funny. I'd buy a poorly drawn shirt if it was funny. Most of their "funny" shirts are toothless comfort-humor, though. Maybe it's cutting edge on a kid's jam-stained jumper at Gymboree - but incredibly tame on an adult.

    "she is reported to have said that." = not really all that funny.

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    gargrazz wrote:...and they're so rarely funny. I'd buy a poorly drawn shirt if it was funny. Most of their "funny" shirts are toothless comfort-humor, though. Maybe it's cutting edge on a kid's jam-stained jumper at Gymboree - but incredibly tame on an adult.

    "she is reported to have said that." = not really all that funny.


    These are the same people who thought that illustrating whack-a-mole with the same hamster from said shirt but now with a squirrel tail was "incredibly clever." Really makes you wonder.

    JaundiceDave


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
    mrwednesday wrote:You won't speak about any of them because you can't because you at best your logic is weak and most of it is severely flawed and based on incorrect information. To add to this, if you had read the post by Joel in the link I provided you would see that they are deliberately withholding information so that they do not have an arms race with cheaters where they change their tactics after they learn that woot knows about them. For now they are content that they are catching cheating and that the cheating parties do not know they are being caught. So again, your entire post is massively flawed and again based on incorrect information.


    I read the post. You say that they've caught the cheaters, so why, if R and S are cheating, and woot has caught the cheaters, do they keep winning? Have they managed to be that incredibly clever that they can slip through woot's defenses with nary a care? It seems to be you whose enitre post is massively flawed, my friend. Perhaps if you put as much time into coming up with arguments as you do posing yourself for photos to illustrate bird anatomy, you would realize this.

    sonny2009


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages sonny2009
    ArchAdder wrote:You know it's really funny... If Drakxxx submitted this exact design, the only argument about the situation would be who gets to blow him first, Adder or MrWednesday...

    ... They throw fists to get the first taste!


    Yeah, and If Drak submitted this, the bird would be anatomically accurate, there wouldn't be any vector based BS incorporated into it, and most importantly, ...it wouldn't be in the fog.

    dsatele


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages dsatele
    paulkremer wrote:I do agree with you. The hard part about this is that Woot USED TO BE one of those sites that offered up great artwork with clever concepts. I haven't been here since the beginning, but I remember when I actually had to set a budget at Woot each month and was sad when more good shirts than I could afford were available. You got great shirts printed on AA for $10! It was great!

    Lately though, we're lucky if 1 shirt a month lives up the old standard. The quality of the art has severely decreased, and instead of seeing "new and creative" printing, we are seeing the same old designs printing week after week. Don't get me wrong. Those same artists that gave us new and creative are still here, and still giving it to us. But they aren't printing anymore. They have been eclipsed almost weekly by R and S. Now, instead of fighting for 3 spots, the designers giving us what Woot USED TO BE about are fighting for 1 spot.

    I think one of the reasons Adder is so upset (and I am upset too, although not to the same extent) is that voters don't seem to care at all about the quality level of the designs or the reputations of the artists they vote for. And even worse, neither does Woot. It's like watching your favorite restaurant slowly get worse and worse to the point you can hardly stand going anymore. Of course there are other restaurants, and a lot of people will go elsewhere. Adder on the other hand wants to fight to make things change...after all, that's the only way they will.

    I am not quite as vocal about it, nor would I be quite as mean-spirited, but I do agree with the principles behind why Adder posts. If you'd seen what Woot used to be, you might find yourself in the same boat.


    I seem to remember one of the first ever derby winners was stock clipart of a water drop and flame. Another early winner (by the great James Cho no less) was soundly blasted by the art-folks as a ripoff of the Calvin and Hobbes style. Cho changed and adapted his style to please the Woot populace and produced some GREAT shirts. Were he to regularly submit here again, I'm quite sure he would give R and S a run for their money. My point is that it is possible to adapt to the voters while maintaining quality.

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    JaundiceDave wrote:I read the post. You say that they've caught the cheaters, so why, if R and S are cheating, and woot has caught the cheaters, do they keep winning? Have they managed to be that incredibly clever that they can slip through woot's defenses with nary a care? It seems to be you whose enitre post is massively flawed, my friend. Perhaps if you put as much time into coming up with arguments as you do posing yourself for photos to illustrate bird anatomy, you would realize this.


    Again you are speculating and trying to present it as fact and your speculation is a logical fallacy. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. This really is getting pathetic.

    JaundiceDave


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
    mrwednesday wrote:Again you are speculating and trying to present it as fact and your speculation is a logical fallacy. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. This really is getting pathetic.


    I wanted to ignore the first sentence entirely, as I read it five times and was still unable to find any meaning in it whatsoever, but I feel I must respond. Present WHAT as fact? What speculation am I making? I am stating something that is objectively true, which is that THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ENTIRELY ON YOU. That is NOT speculation.

    I'm not sure what about this you don't understand. The burden of proof likes ENTIRELY ON YOU. YOU are the one using the "absence of proof" argument. Here is what your argument boils down to. 'Sure, I don't have any real evidence or proof, but you can't prove that they're NOT cheating, so there!' That is the logic of a fourth grader.

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    JaundiceDave wrote:I'm not sure what about this you don't understand. The burden of proof likes ENTIRELY ON YOU. YOU are the one using the "absence of proof" argument. It is a silly attempt to say that 'Sure, I don't have any real evidence or proof, but you can't prove that they're NOT cheating, so there!' That is the logic of a fourth grader.

    I wanted to ignore the first sentence entirely, as I read it five times and was still unable to find any meaning in it whatsoever, but I feel I must respond. Present WHAT as fact? What speculation am I making? I am stating something that is objectively true, which is that THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ENTIRELY ON YOU. That is NOT speculation.


    Ok congrats. You've set up another strawman. I'm not trying to prove anything because I know that I can't, however their past is still incredibly relevant and people should know it. Yet, you continue to harp on this "the burden of proof is yours and if you can't prove they are cheating everything you say is invalid." Well it isn't and no one made that statement to begin with. And you haven't responded to anything else I've said because you have been repeatedly shown to have used flawed logic and to have based it all on incorrect information (like when you tried to say that amuria didn't do anything on DA that was against ToU).

    I know you'd like to ignore all of this and try to sweep it under the rug by trying to make the statement that all of my statements rely on my ability to prove that ramy has cheated at woot(which they don't). It's just getting sad at this point. Admit you don't know what you're talking about and that you really don't understand logical form. All of your "no you're wrong" statements are hollow because you can't actually say what is wrong because it isn't. At this point I'm not sure if you are trying to save face and not dig a deeper hole or if you really don't understand the things you are saying and their implicit meaning.

    bethlehemstarr


    quality posts: 19 Private Messages bethlehemstarr
    JaundiceDave wrote: BLLLAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGG!!! PAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNCCCAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!! GGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!! OOOOOGAAADEEEBOOOGAAADEEEE!!!


    Seriously.
    You read half posts. And are staging half arguments. It's just getting annoying.

    Please stop.

    Or, re-read all of the posts over the last year on every Ramy/Seki design.

    You're not going to are you?

    Oh crummy.

    billratio


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages billratio
    AdderXYU wrote:In a discussion regarding accusations that an artist is a cheat, the fact that there is no evidence supporting the claim in the derby is a 'strawman' argument, because there is plenty of evidence proving they have cheated multiple times elsewhere. Insignificant things like seki bidding on Ramy's auctions in otaku webgames, to boost his winnings, to the big ticket frauds like the aforementioned 200 fake DA accounts, to defrauding Otakon with falsely registered tables they couldn't prove... there's plenty of evidence, and even proof, that they have cheated. To imply that this doesn't relate to woot is fraudulent to the core. It most certainly does relate to here. If there is no certain proof of Ramy or Seki cheating here, but there is certain proof of it elsewhere, pretending it has never happened is a flat out lie, and that it HAS happened, and often, means that it should ALWAYS be an eventuality that wooters realize and keep tabs on, and they should vote accordingly.


    I have my doctorate in art history and art theory. No one would be wise to argue with me. This is the truest piece of art I have ever seen. Adder needs to go back to school (Have you ever been to school, Adder?) and relearn art. Stop talking about my expertise like you know something.

    Check out the Farting in the USA song parody and others!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/thepetersonbros

    albinoapple


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages albinoapple
    mrwednesday wrote:Ok congrats. You've set up another strawman. I'm not trying to prove anything because I know that I can't, however their past is still incredibly relevant and people should know it. Yet, you continue to harp on this "the burden of proof is yours and if you can't prove they are cheating everything you say is invalid." Well it isn't and no one made that statement to begin with. And you haven't responded to anything else I've said because you have been repeatedly shown to have used flawed logic and to have based it all on incorrect information (like when you tried to say that amuria didn't do anything on DA that was against ToU)

    PLEASE STOP raping the term "strawman." Stop with the pseudo-intellectual bullcrap and STOP dismissing valid points under that untrue excuse.

    Yes, it's true, you think you ramy is logically a cheater on woot because he has cheated in the past and no one else can prove he has not cheated. How any of that is logical is beyond me. Maybe you've just ascended above any plane of intelligence that I can even comprehend.

    kcman011


    quality posts: 5 Private Messages kcman011
    JaundiceDave wrote:I read the post. You say that they've caught the cheaters, so why, if R and S are cheating, and woot has caught the cheaters, do they keep winning? Have they managed to be that incredibly clever that they can slip through woot's defenses with nary a care? It seems to be you whose enitre post is massively flawed, my friend. Perhaps if you put as much time into coming up with arguments as you do posing yourself for photos to illustrate bird anatomy, you would realize this.


    I generally try to steer clear of the RamySekiAreCheatersAndShouldBeBanned debate, but I would just like to make a point concerning this post: almost every shirt that Ramy or Seki offers up in the derby that places sells out. That's $30K in woot's pocket (probably around half that net). That is reason enough for them to turn a blind eye to the issue.
    They have found vote stuffing, and they tried to appease the voting masses crying foul by expanding the fog to 9 and the new hotness to non-fogged entries. Honestly, I think that this helps to cover up the ballot stuffing even more. If woot is going to turn a blind eye to it, what better way to pull the proverbial wool over wooters' eyes than to not allow them to see just how many votes a particular fogged shirt is getting, regardless of who the artist is? For instance, in last week's derby Seki's shirt won by a staggering number of votes. By the old derby standards, it would be extremely easy for wooters to see that she was getting, say +57 votes average over the 3-hour hotness period with the next shirt getting +33. The accusations of cheating would have been rampant (although obviously by the number and length of posts on this design, those accusations still are). But, with the new derby rules, it makes it much more difficult to finger-point because there is the level of the unknown.
    The question is, did woot do this intentionally? As a person who takes pride in integrity, I would like to think not. But, again, woot is in the business of making money and, let's face it, Ramy and Seki are definitely good for business. If they are supposedly creating multiple accounts and buying a lot of their own shirts, why would woot care or attempt to stop it, if their sole reason is to go for the green? Ramy and Seki would be cutting into their own profit, and adding to woot's. If I were woot and had no integrity, that would be just fine by me.
    Now, obviously what I have posted is pure conjecture and is not necessarily my personal opinion. I'm just trying to make a point as to why woot would potentially turn a blind eye to ballot stuffing. And why I think that the new voting system has created more problems than it has solved (that is my personal opinion).

    JaundiceDave


    quality posts: 2 Private Messages JaundiceDave
    kcman011 wrote:I generally try to steer clear of the RamySekiAreCheatersAndShouldBeBanned debate, but I would just like to make a point concerning this post: almost every shirt that Ramy or Seki offers up in the derby that places sells out. That's $30K in woot's pocket (probably around half that net). That is reason enough for them to turn a blind eye to the issue.
    They have found vote stuffing, and they tried to appease the voting masses crying foul by expanding the fog to 9 and the new hotness to non-fogged entries. Honestly, I think that this helps to cover up the ballot stuffing even more. If woot is going to turn a blind eye to it, what better way to pull the proverbial wool over wooters' eyes than to not allow them to see just how many votes a particular fogged shirt is getting, regardless of who the artist is? For instance, in last week's derby Seki's shirt won by a staggering number of votes. By the old derby standards, it would be extremely easy for wooters to see that she was getting, say +57 votes average over the 3-hour hotness period with the next shirt getting +33. The accusations of cheating would have been rampant (although obviously by the number and length of posts on this design, those accusations still are). But, with the new derby rules, it makes it much more difficult to finger-point because there is the level of the unknown.
    The question is, did woot do this intentionally? As a person who takes pride in integrity, I would like to think not. But, again, woot is in the business of making money and, let's face it, Ramy and Seki are definitely good for business. If they are supposedly creating multiple accounts and buying a lot of their own shirts, why would woot care or attempt to stop it, if their sole reason is to go for the green? Ramy and Seki would be cutting into their own profit, and adding to woot's. If I were woot and had no integrity, that would be just fine by me.
    Now, obviously what I have posted is pure conjecture and is not necessarily my personal opinion. I'm just trying to make a point as to why woot would potentially turn a blind eye to ballot stuffing. And why I think that the new voting system has created more problems than it has solved (that is my personal opinion).


    Woot has no reason to do this. If they wanted to make money off R and S, they would simply have them on contract and sell a design a week. Why bother going through faking derby results if they can ask them for a design and sell it any time they feel like it?

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    albinoapple wrote:PLEASE STOP raping the term "strawman." Stop with the pseudo-intellectual bullcrap and STOP dismissing valid points under that untrue excuse.

    Yes, it's true, you think you ramy is logically a cheater on woot because he has cheated in the past and no one else can prove he has not cheated. How any of that is logical is beyond me. Maybe you've just ascended above any plane of intelligence that I can even comprehend.


    No, it is logical to believe that ramy may cheat and skirt the rules here because he has done so in the past. He has already more than adequately shown that he doesn't care about the rules here. It's not a giant leap to assume that he also wouldn't care about directly cheating.

    This is all beyond you because you aren't following correctly and hence are making invalid conclusions which makes it pretty likely that it is above your comprehension.

    edit:

    Just so we are clear I've posted the definition of strawman taken from wikipedia.

    A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.


    Not a single argument he has levied has been against an actual statement I or anyone else has made yet he purports to have proven me wrong completely by showing flaws in his fabricated argument. Definition of a strawman.

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    billratio wrote:I have my doctorate in art history and art theory. No one would be wise to argue with me. This is the truest piece of art I have ever seen. Adder needs to go back to school (Have you ever been to school, Adder?) and relearn art. Stop talking about my expertise like you know something.


    I have my doctorate in art history, art theory, computer science and graphic design and this guy has no idea what he is talking about. It would not be wise to argue me with because I have like twice the expertise.

    gargrazz


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages gargrazz

    myopicpsyche


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages myopicpsyche
    Re: Predator (v2!)


    Instead of rehashing the same argument on every R/S shirt comment thread, why don't we try to think of some productive things to do about the issues? Because R/S obviously will neither change nor go away due to your comments, snarky or otherwise, Woot doesn't care what you put on a comment thread, and everyone who's going to be convinced one way or another has already been convinced, what's the point in saying it again and again to a deaf audience? Releasing steam? I'm sure several people have already submitted their concerns to Woot, which may or may not have resulted in anything constructive being done. More ideas? How about this one- tying each woot account to something that everyone should have one of? Require one credit card per account, say, or a cell phone number that gets confirmed with a text message- opening a new credit card for each of X number ghost accounts would be a serious pain/hit to one's credit score. Dunno if anyone's mentioned that already- I have trouble finding the constructive comments in the threads most of the time.

    gekiere


    quality posts: 1 Private Messages gekiere

    Since you can only vote in the shirt derby if you've bought something from Woot before, what you're suggesting is pretty much already built-in.

    muk1


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages muk1
    mrwednesday wrote:Not a single argument he has levied has been against an actual statement I or anyone else has made yet he purports to have proven me wrong completely by showing flaws in his fabricated argument. Definition of a strawman.


    This debate started with your accusation that Ramy has been cheating in the derbies. You may or may not agree that you need any evidence before making your accusation. You may perceive that Ramy's history is evidence enough. But asking you for evidence of Ramy's cheating is not a strawman argument.

    mrwednesday


    quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
    muk1 wrote:This debate started with your accusation that Ramy has been cheating in the derbies. You may or may not agree that you need any evidence before making your accusation. You may perceive that Ramy's history is evidence enough. But asking you for evidence of Ramy's cheating is not a strawman argument.


    No it didn't. I said his wins were suspect, which means that there is reason to believe that they may not be legitimate (which there is). This is absolutely no way relies on mine or anyone else's ability to prove it. Had I sated that ramy was in fact cheating things would be different but I didn't nor has anyone else. The fact that he is using that as a front to attempt to invalidate the rest of it is a strawman, pure and simple.

    myopicpsyche


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages myopicpsyche
    gekiere wrote:Since you can only vote in the shirt derby if you've bought something from Woot before, what you're suggesting is pretty much already built-in.


    not necessarily. Someone can set up multiple accounts and purchase something on each of them- cuts profit, but works. Someone can't really set up multiple accounts and furnish each with a *unique* credit card/confirmed cell number.

    banzaaiii


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages banzaaiii
    ArchAdder wrote:You know it's really funny... If Drakxxx submitted this exact design, the only argument about the situation would be who gets to blow him first, Adder or MrWednesday...

    ... They throw fists to get the first taste!


    couldnt agree more, although it is harshly put. i guess you just noticed the man-naise on wednesdays cheek in the picture up above. i didnt want to point it out earlier myself, but i guess its kind of hard to miss.

    unfortunately they refuse to realize it themselves, especially as this is an internet arguement. they will keep posting essay after essay, week after week, year after year, as they have done for an eternity already. and ramy and seki and the other makers of "cookie cutter, mindless designs that anyone can make" will win. they are the two people that have been here the longest without being artists, and without buying a huge load of shirts. they just enjoy the arguement i guess. yet they still speak of how easy stuff that wins is to make. now, in no way does a critic have to be good at what he is criticizing, but when he claims even a 4 year old can do it, it should be backed up.

    mrwednesday wrote:Again you are speculating and trying to present it as fact and your speculation is a logical fallacy. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. This really is getting pathetic.


    thank you for such a superb analysis of what you yourself are doing with the whole cheating thing. it would be nice though, if everytime you tried to be "intellectual" and "smart", you could use an arguement or point that isnt found in every single philosophy 101 book in this world.

    please oh please, why cant you just accept that people like some stuff, and you dont? let it be, act like you have some dignity, and other things to do than argue the same stuff you have done every week for the last two years.

    the fact that shirts you dont like still print shouldnt upset you so much. the one shirt i wouldve bought this derby came in 20th or something, yet i still see that a lot of the shirts above it are clever, and nicely made. i just dont particularly want any of them.

    i will give credit where credit is due, your first post or two in this thread was legit criticism, but then you lost it, yet again.

    palookaboy


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy
    IndependentVik wrote:Wow, snuffleupagus, huh? You couldn't have picked a more inflammatory analogy? But the simple truth is that if there was no proof of snuffleupagus in the latest case, none, then you can't possibly convict. That's how the rule of law works. Substitute "burglary" in for your emotionally charged example and you'll see that it sounds ridiculous.


    I never said it warranted conviction. I said it warrants accusation. The courtroom analogy was a poor choice, I'll admit. And sorry if I picked so horrible a crime as snuffleupagus, it was the first that came to mind. Next time I'll choose jaywalking for those with delicate sensibilities.

    I'm well aware of how the justice system works. My point was merely that it's a strawman argument to say that you CAN'T accuse Ramy of cheating here just because he hasn't been caught cheating here. You can, because his success here is suspect, and he HAS been caught cheating in the past.

    I am not arguing that Ramy should be banned (ie convicted); I am arguing that if a repeat offender is hanging around, people should know he's a repeat offender. Pretty sure there's a law requiring something to that effect... jaywalkers having to go to their neighbors houses and say they're irresponsible pedestrians or some such nonsense.

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