Derby #209: Fairy Tales

Not in Kansas anymore

We don't consider this to be a fairy tale

Rejected because: We don't consider this to be a fairy tale

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ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


Wizard of Oz: An American Fairy Tale

Hope this is defense enough

(take 3 to quickly edit WV- thanks for pointing it out!)

j5


quality posts: 63 Private Messages j5
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


I agree, this should be allowed.

move along

bakerface22


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bakerface22
This is defiantly a fairy tale! Witches, Munchkin land, flying monkeys, Duh LOL

Re: Not in Kansas anymore

**Baker**

moosepod


quality posts: 0 Private Messages moosepod
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


BOOOOOOO!!! If you decide to print this somewhere else, please send the link.

VOTE- Click Below!!!

loge18


quality posts: 7 Private Messages loge18
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


Woot Brain Trust > Library of Congress

laundryboy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages laundryboy
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


I really liked this. I'm sad it didn't get to run. Makes me think they should have defined fairytale better. :'(

banjokilcup


quality posts: 0 Private Messages banjokilcup
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


It takes more imagination to have witches and scarecrows and flying monkeys than a girl in a red hood and a wolf! Too bad, this was a super clever idea.

bpr2


quality posts: 181 Private Messages bpr2
bakerface22 wrote:This is defiantly a fairy tale! Witches, Munchkin land, flying monkeys, Duh LOL


A dream ≠ fairytale.

that was fun while it lasted!

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

Re: Not in Kansas anymore


We get where you're going here and understand any frustration, but hyperbole for an exhibition is different than actually categorizing a novel as fairy tale, which as far as we can tell they don't do (unlike Grimm's). If they had an exhibition on Star Wars called "American Mythology" (a tag often applied to Star Wars), that doesn't mean they classify Star Wars as actual mythology, nor would we allow it in a 'Mythology' derby, despite seeing the connection, application of mythological themes, etc.

It's a great entry and we hope to see it in a future derby. It's just not what we're going for in this one.

jimkiler


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jimkiler
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


this is a cool design.

bakerface22


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bakerface22
jimkiler wrote:this is a cool design.


Love it anyways, hope it gets printed somewhere. Let us know

**Baker**

kingdomkey


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kingdomkey

nitpicky disqualification. At this point I think it has entered into folklore and is definitely a fairy tale. Hell, Oz residents are called fairies.

ChaosDoctor07


quality posts: 9 Private Messages ChaosDoctor07
kingdomkey wrote:nitpicky disqualification. At this point I think it has entered into folklore and is definitely a fairy tale. Hell, Oz residents are called fairies.


Having fairies does not equal fairy tale.

"Don't believe in the you who believes in me. Don't believe in the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself."

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
tgentry wrote:We get where you're going here and understand any frustration, but hyperbole for an exhibition is different than actually categorizing a novel as fairy tale, which as far as we can tell they don't do (unlike Grimm's). If they had an exhibition on Star Wars called "American Mythology" (a tag often applied to Star Wars), that doesn't mean they classify Star Wars as actual mythology, nor would we allow it in a 'Mythology' derby, despite seeing the connection, application of mythological themes, etc.

It's a great entry and we hope to see it in a future derby. It's just not what we're going for in this one.


Hmmmm. let's see. The nation's oldest federal cultural and research institution which also is the largest library in the world, with millions of books, recordings, photographs, maps and manuscripts in its collections, employing thousands of well educated and dedicated full time staff

*****or*****

a company that has been around 7 years and sells Flying Monkeys and Roombas, employing tens of people that think Red Bull is a food group and 90% of which have the iFart app on their smartphone and use it daily.

I'm going with the LOC on this one.

taternuggets


quality posts: 21 Private Messages taternuggets
DoublEE wrote:Hmmmm. let's see. The nation's oldest federal cultural and research institution which also is the largest library in the world, with millions of books, recordings, photographs, maps and manuscripts in its collections, employing thousands of well educated and dedicated full time staff

*****or*****

a company that has been around 7 years and sells Flying Monkeys and Roombas, employing tens of people that think Red Bull is a food group and 90% of which have the iFart app on their smartphone and use it daily.

I'm going with the LOC on this one.


Well, this seven year old company is the one that prints and markets the shirts here. I would think it would be up to them rather than the Library of Congress on which shirts to do it with.


Nothing follows.

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
taternuggets wrote:Well, this seven year old company is the one that prints and markets the shirts here. I would think it would be up to them rather than the Library of Congress on which shirts to do it with.


True they can print what ever they want...just don't base the decision on some half-baked criteria that contradicts the non-tee-shirt printing literary experts.

Do a little research. I can find THOUSANDS of references to Frank Baum as the father of the American FAIRY TALE. And no...these aren't hyperbolic statements from an exhibition.

"Since its publication in September 1900, L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz has become America's greatest and best-loved homegrown fairytale."

"Considered the creator of the first American fairy tale, Lyman Frank Baum was born atChittenango, New York, near Syracuse, on May 15, 1856."

"As he explained that he wanted to tell an exciting story with intriguing characters andevents. “Having this thought in mind,” he said, “the story of ‘The Wonderful Wizard of Oz’was written solely to please children of today. It aspires to being a modernized fairy tale, inwhich the wonderment and joy are retained and the heartaches and nightmares are left out.”

"Many librarians banned it from their collections,declaring it was not quality literature, and other groups censored it as being controversial andinappropriate for children. Gradually, some authorities, such as Edward Wagenknecht in the1929 book Utopia Americana, credited Baum for creating an original American fairy tale inThe Wonderful Wizard of Oz. Other scholars said that Baum had appropriated European fairytale motifs. Since the late twentieth century, Baum’s Oz novels have been a staple for children’s literature analysis based on differing interpretative frameworks."


"He acknowledged the influence of The Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson, and even Lewis Caroll‘s “Alice in Wonderland” books, but was deliberately setting out to create “American fairy tales.”

"L. Frank Baum did not come to write the books of Oz until he was well into his middle age. In American Writers for Children, 1900-1960, Michael Patrick Hearn writes that, "On 15 May 1900, Baum’s forty-fourth birthday, his most enduring work, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz , was printed. The new book, a full-length fairy tale, again illustrated by Denslow, matched the great success of Father Goose,"

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE

Fairy Tale (n) a story (as for children) involving fantastic forces and beings (as fairies, wizards, and goblins) —called also fairy story.

A wizard...flying monkeys...spells...witches, talking lion, scarecrow and tin man...munchkins...I mean what more to you need?

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
laundryboy wrote:I really liked this. I'm sad it didn't get to run. Makes me think they should have defined fairytale better. :'(


Or have a better idea of what a fairy tale is...

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

DoublEE wrote:

Do a little research. I can find THOUSANDS of references to Frank Baum as the father of the American FAIRY TALE. And no...these aren't hyperbolic statements from an exhibition.


And we could make the exact same argument and list similar quotes for Star Wars as mythology. People refer to it as American Mythology, Lucas drew directly from mythology just as Baum did fairy tales, it has familiar elements from mythology, and there have been exhibitions and books written about it as such. But we wouldn't (and didn't) want Star Wars in a mythology derby (or LOTR and similar 'modern mythologies') and we don't want Wizard of Oz in a Fairy Tale derby....

"In my review of A New Hope I called Star Wars "the quintessential American mythology," an American take on King Arthur, Tolkien, and the samurai / wuxia epics of the East, dressed in the space-opera trappings of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon and festooned with a variety of nostalgic Hollywood influences — serial-adventure swashbuckling, WWII movie dogfights, movie-Need more history channel. villains, saloon shootouts."

"Lucas has been described as the first mass media mythologist. His inspiration for these mythical themes originated from a personal friendship with the late Joseph Campbell, perhaps the best-known expert in the field."

""Star Wars: The Magic of Myth" was on display at the National Air and Space Museum from October 31, 1997 to January 31, 1999. This online tour represents the exhibition as it was originally displayed at the National Air and Space Museum."

"Lucas had already written two drafts of Star Wars when he rediscovered Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces in 1975 (having read it years before in college). This blueprint for "The Hero's Journey" gave Lucas the focus he needed to draw his sprawling imaginary universe into a single story."

Star Wars: The New Myth

Star Wars: The Power of Myth


And about a thousand other pages and books. We understand that people can consider Wizard of Oz an American fairy tale. For the purposes of this derby we don't, just like we accept that some people consider Star Wars to be American mythology, but we still don't want it in a mythology derby. Likewise we wouldn't want Pan's Labyrinth or Stardust references in this derby even though they could be considered modern fairy tales. Hopefully this is clear, I think we feel comfortable with this decision, however had we had the foresight to know someone would use the Wizard of Oz we might have known to included it in the "do not use" list. Hindsight is 20/20, so lesson learned on our part.

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
tgentry wrote:And we could make the exact same argument and list similar quotes for Star Wars as mythology. People refer to it as American Mythology, Lucas drew directly from mythology just as Baum did fairy tales, it has familiar elements from mythology, and there have been exhibitions and books written about it as such. But we wouldn't (and didn't) want Star Wars in a mythology derby (or LOTR and similar 'modern mythologies') and we don't want Wizard of Oz in a Fairy Tale derby....

"In my review of A New Hope I called Star Wars "the quintessential American mythology," an American take on King Arthur, Tolkien, and the samurai / wuxia epics of the East, dressed in the space-opera trappings of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon and festooned with a variety of nostalgic Hollywood influences — serial-adventure swashbuckling, WWII movie dogfights, movie-Need more history channel. villains, saloon shootouts."

"Lucas has been described as the first mass media mythologist. His inspiration for these mythical themes originated from a personal friendship with the late Joseph Campbell, perhaps the best-known expert in the field."

""Star Wars: The Magic of Myth" was on display at the National Air and Space Museum from October 31, 1997 to January 31, 1999. This online tour represents the exhibition as it was originally displayed at the National Air and Space Museum."

"Lucas had already written two drafts of Star Wars when he rediscovered Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces in 1975 (having read it years before in college). This blueprint for "The Hero's Journey" gave Lucas the focus he needed to draw his sprawling imaginary universe into a single story."

Star Wars: The New Myth

Star Wars: The Power of Myth


And about a thousand other pages and books. We understand that people can consider Wizard of Oz an American fairy tale. For the purposes of this derby we don't, just like we accept that some people consider Star Wars to be American mythology, but we still don't want it in a mythology derby. Likewise we wouldn't want Pan's Labyrinth or Stardust references in this derby even though they could be considered modern fairy tales. Hopefully this is clear, I think we feel comfortable with this decision, however had we had the foresight to know someone would use the Wizard of Oz we might have known to included it in the "do not use" list. Hindsight is 20/20, so lesson learned on our part.


mythology: an ancient, fictional story, especially one dealing with gods, heroes etc.

While Star Wars may draw on mythology or have elements of mythology (like tons of other works out there) it's not mythology.

Fairy Tale (n) a story (as for children) involving fantastic forces and beings (as fairies, wizards, and goblins) —called also fairy story.

You tell me where the Wizard of Oz series fails to meet this definition. A wizard...flying monkeys...spells...witches, talking lion, scarecrow and tin man...munchkins.

You made a rash call, got publicly pants and now you pride can't let you admit your mistake. Pathetic.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

DoublEE wrote:mythology: an ancient, fictional story, especially one dealing with gods, heroes etc.

While Star Wars may draw on mythology or have elements of mythology (like tons of other works out there) it's not mythology.

Fairy Tale (n) a story (as for children) involving fantastic forces and beings (as fairies, wizards, and goblins) —called also fairy story.

You tell me where the Wizard of Oz series fails to meet this definition. A wizard...flying monkeys...spells...witches, talking lion, scarecrow and tin man...munchkins.

You made a rash call, got publicly pants and now you pride can't let you admit your mistake. Pathetic.


I can find definitions that fit our argument as well:

A fairy tale is a type of short narrative that typically features such folkloric characters, such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, dwarves, giants or gnomes, and usually magic or enchantments. The Wizard of Oz does not apply to that definition.

The term mythology can refer to either the study of myths, or to a body of myths. Star Wars could apply.


The decision was not rash. We consulted on Friday on this one and on the Alice and Wonderland entry. In fact we took much more time in deliberating on this one. The call is that it's not what we're looking for in a fairy tale derby for the same reason Lord of the Rings or Star Wars is not what we're looking for in a mythology derby.

Jackemmenjaser


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jackemmenjaser
tgentry wrote:And we could make the exact same argument and list similar quotes for Star Wars as mythology. People refer to it as American Mythology, Lucas drew directly from mythology just as Baum did fairy tales, it has familiar elements from mythology, and there have been exhibitions and books written about it as such. But we wouldn't (and didn't) want Star Wars in a mythology derby (or LOTR and similar 'modern mythologies') and we don't want Wizard of Oz in a Fairy Tale derby....

"In my review of A New Hope I called Star Wars "the quintessential American mythology," an American take on King Arthur, Tolkien, and the samurai / wuxia epics of the East, dressed in the space-opera trappings of Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon and festooned with a variety of nostalgic Hollywood influences — serial-adventure swashbuckling, WWII movie dogfights, movie-Need more history channel. villains, saloon shootouts."

"Lucas has been described as the first mass media mythologist. His inspiration for these mythical themes originated from a personal friendship with the late Joseph Campbell, perhaps the best-known expert in the field."

""Star Wars: The Magic of Myth" was on display at the National Air and Space Museum from October 31, 1997 to January 31, 1999. This online tour represents the exhibition as it was originally displayed at the National Air and Space Museum."

"Lucas had already written two drafts of Star Wars when he rediscovered Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces in 1975 (having read it years before in college). This blueprint for "The Hero's Journey" gave Lucas the focus he needed to draw his sprawling imaginary universe into a single story."

Star Wars: The New Myth

Star Wars: The Power of Myth


And about a thousand other pages and books. We understand that people can consider Wizard of Oz an American fairy tale. For the purposes of this derby we don't, just like we accept that some people consider Star Wars to be American mythology, but we still don't want it in a mythology derby. Likewise we wouldn't want Pan's Labyrinth or Stardust references in this derby even though they could be considered modern fairy tales. Hopefully this is clear, I think we feel comfortable with this decision, however had we had the foresight to know someone would use the Wizard of Oz we might have known to included it in the "do not use" list. Hindsight is 20/20, so lesson learned on our part.


Negative on where George Lucas got the idea for Star Wars. It was actually a direct interpretation of Carl Jung's ideas on The Archetypes and Collective Unconscious.

This isn't really an argument for either side (Though I do feel Woot has its head up its own ass on this one), I just like to point out that Star Wars is not original whenever I get the chance. It's just another stolen idea that made it farther than the original. (Read: George Lucas was Steve Jobs before Steve Jobs was Steve Jobs)

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
tgentry wrote:I can find definitions that fit our argument as well:

A fairy tale is a type of short narrative that typically features such folkloric characters, such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, dwarves, giants or gnomes, and usually magic or enchantments. The Wizard of Oz does not apply to that definition.

The term mythology can refer to either the study of myths, or to a body of myths. Star Wars could apply.


The decision was not rash. We consulted on Friday on this one and on the Alice and Wonderland entry. In fact we took much more time in deliberating on this one. The call is that it's not what we're looking for in a fairy tale derby for the same reason Lord of the Rings or Star Wars is not what we're looking for in a mythology derby.


I;m done with this. As many have stated...you guys blew it.

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
Jackemmenjaser wrote:Negative on where George Lucas got the idea for Star Wars. It was actually a direct interpretation of Carl Jung's ideas on The Archetypes and Collective Unconscious.

This isn't really an argument for either side (Though I do feel Woot has its head up its own ass on this one), I just like to point out that Star Wars is not original whenever I get the chance. It's just another stolen idea that made it farther than the original. (Read: George Lucas was Steve Jobs before Steve Jobs was Steve Jobs)


Somewhere L.Frank Baum is spinning is his grave.

Here's the Introduction to The Wonderful Wizard of Oz word for word:

Introduction

Folklore, legends, myths and fairy tales have followed childhood through the ages, for every healthy youngster has a wholesome and instinctive love for stories fantastic, marvelous and manifestly unreal. The winged fairies of Grimm and Andersen have brought more happiness to childish hearts than all other human creations.

Yet the old time fairy tale, having served for generations, may now be classed as "historical" in the children's library; for the time has come for a series of newer "wonder tales" in which the stereotyped genie, dwarf and fairy are eliminated, together with all the horrible and blood-curdling incidents devised by their authors to point a fearsome moral to each tale. Modern education includes morality; therefore the modern child seeks only entertainment in its wonder tales and gladly dispenses with all disagreeable incident.

Having this thought in mind, the story of "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" was written solely to please children of today. It aspires to being a modernized fairy tale, in which the wonderment and joy are retained and the heartaches and nightmares are left out.


L. Frank Baum

Chicago, April, 1900.

I guess woot doesn't want modern fairy tales. It may have been a good idea to state this in the rules.

gina1221


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gina1221
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


This is one of my favorites. I hope to see it get printed in the future!

uncleregis


quality posts: 0 Private Messages uncleregis
Re: Not in Kansas anymore


So the main reason this was rejected is because Star Wars isn't a myth? Did I understand that correctly?

bpr2


quality posts: 181 Private Messages bpr2

ffs, she gets knocked out, and she DREAMS about being in OZ and in the end she WAKES UP and realizes THAT SHE WAS DREAMING.

Again. Dreams ≠ fairytales.

that was fun while it lasted!

Jackemmenjaser


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jackemmenjaser
bpr2 wrote:ffs, she gets knocked out, and she DREAMS about being in OZ and in the end she WAKES UP and realizes THAT SHE WAS DREAMING.

Again. Dreams ≠ fairytales.


So you're saying that a plot device negates it's story? Inception = 2 and 1/2 hours of blank screen?

uncleregis


quality posts: 0 Private Messages uncleregis
bpr2 wrote:ffs, she gets knocked out, and she DREAMS about being in OZ and in the end she WAKES UP and realizes THAT SHE WAS DREAMING.

Again. Dreams ≠ fairytales.


Ignorance ≠ fact

You do realize the Wizard of OZ movie is based on the Wonderful Wizard of Oz story, right? Obviously not. Let me enlighten you... Dorothy's time in Oz did in fact happen in the story. Dorothy even goes back to visit Oz in subsequent Oz books.

I realize watching movies is faster than reading books but I highly recommend it... especially before commenting on what happens in the story.

grisca


quality posts: 0 Private Messages grisca
uncleregis wrote:So the main reason this was rejected is because Star Wars isn't a myth? Did I understand that correctly?


The reason why this was rejected is this (if I understood right):
They wanted a derby based on the traditional fairy tales (as in short narrative) with the traditional role schemes.

Though some sources may call "The Whizard of Oz" a fairy tale (different countries seem to be of different opinions as to if it is or not a fairy tale), it is novel length and not the same style as typical fairy tales of old.

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
uncleregis wrote:Ignorance ≠ fact

You do realize the Wizard of OZ movie is based on the Wonderful Wizard of Oz story, right? Obviously not. Let me enlighten you... Dorothy's time in Oz did in fact happen in the story. Dorothy even goes back to visit Oz in subsequent Oz books.

I realize watching movies is faster than reading books but I highly recommend it... especially before commenting on what happens in the story.


+1

uncleregis


quality posts: 0 Private Messages uncleregis
grisca wrote:The reason why this was rejected is this (if I understood right):
They wanted a derby based on the traditional fairy tales (as in short narrative) with the traditional role schemes.

Though some sources may call "The Whizard of Oz" a fairy tale (different countries seem to be of different opinions as to if it is or not a fairy tale), it is novel length and not the same style as typical fairy tales of old.


Yeah, I was just kidding around. It seemed to me that they couldn't explain why the Wonderful Wizard of Oz was not a fairy tale without explaining how Star Wars was not a myth. I mean EVERY time. It made me chuckle.

It would have been nice if they specifically said 'only classic fairy tales' but they didn't. Live and learn. Hopefully the artist can resubmit this in a future derby and then be rejected b/c of incidental text ;)

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE
uncleregis wrote:Yeah, I was just kidding around. It seemed to me that they couldn't explain why the Wonderful Wizard of Oz was not a fairy tale without explaining how Star Wars was not a myth. I mean EVERY time. It made me chuckle.

It would have been nice if they specifically said 'only classic fairy tales' but they didn't. Live and learn. Hopefully the artist can resubmit this in a future derby and then be rejected b/c of incidental text ;)


Yeah, I thought the whole Star Wars thing was a weak argument. It was a red herring due to the fact woot couldn't intelligently defend their decision.

DoublEE


quality posts: 8 Private Messages DoublEE

Now I see the real reason this shirt was rejected. Little Red Riding Hood is blocking woot headquarters.

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