Derby #165: The Scientific Method
+1036

Double Helix

Double Helix
add a comment

Comments

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Re: Double Helix


Decided to rework this entry from the events of 2009 derby. Made some changes to the design to try to make an abstract representation of the progressive development in the understanding of DNA structure. Hope you enjoy

I thought I'd add a bit about the idea for this design as it relates to the topic. Starting at the botom of the horizontal section is a representation of Rosalind Franklin's xray crystallography experiment, which gave the first indication of the double helical structure of DNA. The DNA strands get more detailed moving upwards to show the progression of this understanding, until finally the vertical one shows the base pairing as well. Superimposed on the design as well are the structures of the base pairs. I put a lot of thought into the changes I wanted to make to this design to make the theme come through. The design sort of serves as a "DNA blueprint" so to speak. Hopefully that makes sense.

EDIT:
After trying very hard several times to explain my idea of how this shirt fits the theme, I felt this comment very concisely stated what I was going for:

bmjayne wrote:It feels like I'm moving through an artistic virtual timeline of DNA research as the understanding of it becomes more and more clear (and more and more prominent in the design). I also like how the fragments of molecules and strands correlate to the process of putting the pieces together, as in the process of discovery.


(Thanks)

Popnfrsh


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Popnfrsh
Re: Double Helix


Just look at that DNA, otterific

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
ramyb wrote:Decided to rework this entry from the events of 2009 derby. Made some changes to the design to try to make an abstract representation of the progressive development in the understanding of DNA structure. Hope you enjoy


I didn't realize DNA was discovered in 2009. But this entry does highlight a very important issue: that your work is almost never something relevant to themes. This doesn't evoke any story of 2009. It's just a double helix that you attached to some other story that somehow involved DNA. And right now, it's off theme again because DNA is part of science, but not the scientific method. It is tenuous at best. Which would be an excellent screenname for you if Ramyb ever gets rightfully banned.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
AdderXYU wrote:I didn't realize DNA was discovered in 2009. But this entry does highlight a very important issue: that your work is almost never something relevant to themes. This doesn't evoke any story of 2009. It's just a double helix that you attached to some other story that somehow involved DNA. And right now, it's off theme again because DNA is part of science, but not the scientific method. It is tenuous at best. Which would be an excellent screenname for you if Ramyb ever gets rightfully banned.


I don't normally feel the need to respond to you, but there is a clear methodology represented in the design. I included a representation of Rosalind Franklin's xray crystallography experiment, basic double helix models, and then the up close molecular structure of the individual elements and base pairing. And considering that dancing flasks, arbitrary math equations and birds sitting on people's heads are all considered scientific method in this derby, I'd say I put in a pretty strong effort to make this on topic. And considering woot essentially said that putting a beaker on any shirt would make it on topic, I'd say that any tie to science of any sort should make things on topic this week. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assue you didn't recognize the elements in the design, rather than just choosing to ignore them.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
Re: Double Helix


I won't lie... I really REALLY like this one. Sadly, I don't see the "method" part of the theme involved. Add like an eyeball looking at it or something.


AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
ramyb wrote:I don't normally feel the need to respond to you, but there is a clear methodology represented in the design. I included a representation of Rosalind Franklin's xray crystallography experiment, basic double helix models, and then the up close molecular structure of the individual elements and base pairing. And considering that dancing flasks, arbitrary math equations and birds sitting on people's heads are all considered scientific method in this derby, I'd say I put in a pretty strong effort to make this on topic. And considering woot essentially said that putting a beaker on any shirt would make it on topic, I'd say that any tie to science of any sort should make things on topic this week. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assue you didn't recognize the elements in the design, rather than just choosing to ignore them.


Using an old design = a pretty strong effort to make this on topic for Ramy. Duly noted.

I'm not saying other people are on theme. I'm just saying that you're adding one more notch on your reputation for being totally off theme every week.

Zarfus


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Zarfus
AdderXYU wrote:Using an old design = a pretty strong effort to make this on topic for Ramy. Duly noted.

I'm not saying other people are on theme. I'm just saying that you're adding one more notch on your reputation for being totally off theme every week.


All the ramy hating is getting really freaking old. His designs are well done, and people like them. If I had half as much talent as he (she?) did, I would also try to cash in on woot shirts and give people what they want and vote for.

mjc613


quality posts: 48 Private Messages mjc613
Re: Double Helix


Very close to a shirt woot already printed. It's also off-topic. To be fair, there are other entries that are merely science-related, instead of scientific-method related, that woot has not rejected. But it's still Friday afternoon.

Ramyb, you already have something in this derby that IS on topic and good artwork imo. Why are you throwing in something that is a rework?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
Re: Double Helix


I could swear that we've seen at least 2 DNA shirts here before? TGentry did one (about 300x better than this) and the 1988: The Human Genome Project...

Oh, originality.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday

What a shckingly massive redesign. I can tell you put a lot of work into this one. It's completely different from the last time.





As for the BS tie in to Rosalind Franklin (by the way why are the telomeres still "disintegrating") I fail to see any reference to her crystallography. It appears you kind of put in a hashed x but I'm not even sure that's it. What I'm looking for is the following and it's not there.



And to use this as a tie in to the scientific method is pretty weak anyway since rarely is the accepted method of science "steal someone else's data and use it to scoop their research."

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
mrwednesday wrote:



Aside from similar shirts exist and thematic connection, the above is grounds for rejection alone.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

NameyMcName


quality posts: 10 Private Messages NameyMcName
Re: Double Helix


I think you would need to change how the strands cross over each other to represent the crystallography Rosalind Franklin did. She got x-rays of A- and B-DNA structures. The main strand here looks left-handed to me, which would make it Z-DNA. I'm not a scientist, though, so I could be wrong.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
kylemittskus wrote:Aside from similar shirts exist and thematic connection, the above is grounds for rejection alone.


Woot has set a precedent for allowing direct resubs of formerly rejected shirts

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
Zarfus wrote:All the ramy hating is getting really freaking old. His designs are well done, and people like them. If I had half as much talent as he (she?) did, I would also try to cash in on woot shirts and give people what they want and vote for.


Well done is subjective but I don't care to argue it.

It's not "hating" when an entry is off topic (I feel like this one is, but I'm not anyone who decides that), it's breaking the rules.

I'll admit, I kind of liked it on the front page, but I also thought "yknow, that's pretty off topic unless they have a good explanation" and had a feeling I knew who the artist was. I was right on both counts.

If this were some sort of science or biology derby straight up, I'd probably vote for this design. It's not, so I won't.

Zarfus


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Zarfus
Darquis wrote:Well done is subjective but I don't care to argue it.

It's not "hating" when an entry is off topic (I feel like this one is, but I'm not anyone who decides that), it's breaking the rules.

I'll admit, I kind of liked it on the front page, but I also thought "yknow, that's pretty off topic unless they have a good explanation" and had a feeling I knew who the artist was. I was right on both counts.

If this were some sort of science or biology derby straight up, I'd probably vote for this design. It's not, so I won't.


I'll be honest, I don't even like this shirt. I like his lab rat one (perhaps getting even more flame...). But people only complain about off topic about ramy.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=45624
I don't think this is anymore ON topic...(nothing against Walmazan...his designs are wonderful)

It just seems like people whine too much about ramy's stuff--it gets annoying. I felt like chiming in this week to support him a little, especially because it feels like nobody else does.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
Zarfus wrote:I'll be honest, I don't even like this shirt. I like his lab rat one (perhaps getting even more flame...). But people only complain about off topic about ramy.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=45624
I don't think this is anymore ON topic...(nothing against Walmazan...his designs are wonderful)

It just seems like people whine too much about ramy's stuff--it gets annoying. I felt like chiming in this week to support him a little, especially because it feels like nobody else does.


...

Darquis wrote:Oh wow, this is most excellently done. But how do you think it demonstrates the scientific method?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
Zarfus wrote:I'll be honest, I don't even like this shirt. I like his lab rat one (perhaps getting even more flame...). But people only complain about off topic about ramy.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=45624
I don't think this is anymore ON topic...(nothing against Walmazan...his designs are wonderful)

It just seems like people whine too much about ramy's stuff--it gets annoying. I felt like chiming in this week to support him a little, especially because it feels like nobody else does.


Haha I just went and commented on his design (and Patrickspens and a couple others) that were glaringly off topic (of the ones that I went to look at - I certainly didn't look at all of them). People said they're frustrated when Ramy (or other artists) get singled out, so I'm trying to be consistent in my "how does this fit the topic"

Zarfus


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Zarfus
Darquis wrote:Haha I just went and commented on his design (and Patrickspens and a couple others) that were glaringly off topic (of the ones that I went to look at - I certainly didn't look at all of them). People said they're frustrated when Ramy (or other artists) get singled out, so I'm trying to be consistent in my "how does this fit the topic"


Nice ;)

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
ramyb wrote:Woot has set a precedent for allowing direct resubs of formerly rejected shirts


Just so you can't later say that this isn't a direct resub which it is.

However, in your example, Drakxxx's shirt was rejected for being off theme very early on in the derby and so was never eligible.

Your shirt was rejected on Thursday because you were too lazy to send in the print ready because the shirt wasn't going to print. Not because it was off topic. Not because woot had some problem with it. HUUUUUUUGE difference. This shirt had it's fair shot (which Drakxxx's didn't) and it didn't print, it needs to be changed for a resub.

tedschopf


quality posts: 3 Private Messages tedschopf
Re: Double Helix


I love this design! The shirt woot topic is science method stuff, and woot has always allowed a little wiggle room on its topics. If you get too technical, then you eliminate a lot of good designs. And, due to the amount of votes this shirt is getting, nobody really descriminates on topic besides just a few people. I hope it wins.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
tedschopf wrote:The shirt woot topic is science method stuff


No. The topic is "The Scientific Method" which is VERY different than science. This shirt is, not surprisingly, off topic.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

Spiritgreen


quality posts: 217 Private Messages Spiritgreen
Re: Double Helix


So bright and dimensional, that's a very clever use of blues.

I kinda agree that there it's hard to appreciate if there's a scientific method in action here, it seems more like an artistic composition of scientific imagery. But it's a very handsome shirt, there's no doubt about that.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
tedschopf wrote:I love this design! The shirt woot topic is science method stuff, and woot has always allowed a little wiggle room on its topics. If you get too technical, then you eliminate a lot of good designs. And, due to the amount of votes this shirt is getting, nobody really descriminates on topic besides just a few people. I hope it wins.


The people voting aren't the ones determining the on-topicness of a shirt, though. And I don't think it's too technical to ask that designs actually fit the theme - an artistic rendition of DNA is not the scientific method in any way, even with some vague reference to something that one scientist did one time

capedcrusader514


quality posts: 1 Private Messages capedcrusader514

I love when ramyb does these shirts. It always feels nice to stop into walmart and buy your clothes especially original ones that are well made and very stylish. I feel really confident in these stylish, impressive, clever shirts.

EngineDriver


quality posts: 0 Private Messages EngineDriver
capedcrusader514 wrote:I love when ramyb does these shirts. It always feels nice to stop into walmart and buy your clothes especially original ones that are well made and very stylish. I feel really confident in these stylish, impressive, clever shirts.


Just wanted to echo this sentiment.

kimvy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages kimvy
kylemittskus wrote: Zarfus wrote:I'll be honest, I don't even like this shirt. I like his lab rat one (perhaps getting even more flame...). But people only complain about off topic about ramy.

http://shirt.woot.com/Derby/Entry.aspx?id=45624
I don't think this is anymore ON topic...(nothing against Walmazan...his designs are wonderful)

It just seems like people whine too much about ramy's stuff--it gets annoying. I felt like chiming in this week to support him a little, especially because it feels like nobody else does.


...

Darquis wrote:Oh wow, this is most excellently done. But how do you think it demonstrates the scientific method?


Check out the timing. Zarfus was first in his comments. It's unfair to apply what happens afterwards.

Jackemmenjaser


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Jackemmenjaser
Jackemmenjaser wrote:Random comment. (This posted to the wrong shirt and it wont let me delete it)


Apparently I'm just plain balderee, because it did post in the right place, just sent me to a different page...yatta yatta.

It was SUPPOSED to say: "The greatest sign that you are ahead of the game is that people despise you."

Looks like I'm trailing here. x.x

rabidwooter


quality posts: 1 Private Messages rabidwooter
Re: Double Helix


Cool shirt, I want one. Who cares about all the scientific garbage. This is a design contest, not an essay contest based on some theoretical scientific thesis. Quiet nerds, sheesh...

koronae


quality posts: 0 Private Messages koronae
rabidwooter wrote:Cool shirt, I want one. Who cares about all the scientific garbage. This is a design contest, not an essay contest based on some theoretical scientific thesis. Quiet nerds, sheesh...


Actually. Woot cares about all of this scientific garbage. They made the theme, this doesn't fit the theme. I'm a science nerd and will rage on. Sorry duder.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
rabidwooter wrote:Cool shirt, I want one. Who cares about all the scientific garbage. This is a design contest, not an essay contest based on some theoretical scientific thesis. Quiet nerds, sheesh...


What you're saying is, essentially, "Who cares about the rules, this is a contest to make woot give you as much money as you can. Quit having an opinion". What's the point of having a theme if artist's are just going to ignore it and do what they want? We might as well just have it be kawaii week, every week, and pay Ramy enough to retire on, and get no variety in style or content.

rabidwooter


quality posts: 1 Private Messages rabidwooter
koronae wrote:Actually. Woot cares about all of this scientific garbage. They made the theme, this doesn't fit the theme. I'm a science nerd and will rage on. Sorry duder.


"This week, show us your take on the Scientific Method."

That implies your own opinion or artistic interpretation. If this gets rejected, almost all other submissions must also get rejected.

So far I see flying caterpillars, smiling beakers, and bacteria with facial expressions. So all those cutesy submissions are all hard science? LMAO, sure thing, whatever you say...

rabidwooter


quality posts: 1 Private Messages rabidwooter
Darquis wrote:What you're saying is, essentially, "Who cares about the rules, this is a contest to make woot give you as much money as you can. Quit having an opinion". What's the point of having a theme if artist's are just going to ignore it and do what they want? We might as well just have it be kawaii week, every week, and pay Ramy enough to retire on, and get no variety in style or content.


Ok, go ahead and show me where the rules specifically state "Must be 100% scientifically accurate."

Doonyal


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Doonyal
AdderXYU wrote:I didn't realize DNA was discovered in 2009. But this entry does highlight a very important issue: that your work is almost never something relevant to themes. This doesn't evoke any story of 2009. It's just a double helix that you attached to some other story that somehow involved DNA. And right now, it's off theme again because DNA is part of science, but not the scientific method. It is tenuous at best. Which would be an excellent screenname for you if Ramyb ever gets rightfully banned.


it is on topic, people just want to gripe about ramby

example:
Four basic elements of scientific method are illustrated below, by example from the discovery of the structure of DNA:
DNA-characterizations: in this case, although the significance of the gene had been established, the mechanism was unclear to anyone, as of 1950.
DNA-hypotheses: Crick and Watson hypothesized that the gene had a physical basis - it was helical.
DNA-predictions: from earlier work on tobacco mosaic virus, Watson was aware of the significance of Crick's formulation of the transform of a helix. Thus he was primed for the significance of the X-shape in photo 51.
DNA-experiments: Watson sees photo 51.

i will agree with mrwednesday though, that if those two shirts were supposed to be different, there isn't a big enough change really for it not to be an issue. Still enjoy your work though ramby.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
rabidwooter wrote:Ok, go ahead and show me where the rules specifically state "Must be 100% scientifically accurate."


Don't recall saying scientifically accurate. Woot didn't say hard science. They said
"This week, show us your take on the Scientific Method. Maybe you'll attest to the value of repeatable results, show us an experiment in motion" (cut because the rest was a joke).

And you mention some other designs, but for example, the caterpillar is testing a form of Bernoulli's principle (from fluid dynamics) which allows flight. As for the smiling beakers, I want them gone too, so that's not inconsistent. The caterpillar, though, is actually good scientific method.

Ramy slapped DNA on a shirt (and in fact has submitted this before, and wasn't really on topic then either). No experimentation, no results, no theory, no nothing, just pretty DNA.

If this were a biology derby or just "science" I might even be inclined to vote for it. But my liking a shirt doesn't make a shirt within the rules, and neither does yours.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
Doonyal wrote:it is on topic, people just want to gripe about ramby

example:
Four basic elements of scientific method are illustrated below, by example from the discovery of the structure of DNA:
DNA-characterizations: in this case, although the significance of the gene had been established, the mechanism was unclear to anyone, as of 1950.
DNA-hypotheses: Crick and Watson hypothesized that the gene had a physical basis - it was helical.
DNA-predictions: from earlier work on tobacco mosaic virus, Watson was aware of the significance of Crick's formulation of the transform of a helix. Thus he was primed for the significance of the X-shape in photo 51.
DNA-experiments: Watson sees photo 51.

i will agree with mrwednesday though, that if those two shirts were supposed to be different, there isn't a big enough change really for it not to be an issue. Still enjoy your work though ramby.


I'll throw this out now - I'm not just a ramy hater. I own some ramy designs. Under different circumstances, I MIGHT get this one. So you can't just dismiss my criticism that way.

Ramy demonstrated none of the things you just said. Moreover, when this was designed, it wasn't intended to show any of things you OR Ramy said it was - it was in events of 2009, and tenuously there as well. It's a barely changed resub here, so I find it hard to swallow that suddenly this design was meant to be something completely different than it was 9 months ago (while still being almost identical to it). (I also don't think Ramy's description makes sense, but I'm tired right now so I'll reread it later before I respond to it)

Basically, there's not really a way to justify this as a display of the scientific method given the entry's history and it's current state. If it were significantly reworked, maybe!

VeanMan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages VeanMan
Re: Double Helix


I love hexagons.

VeanMan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages VeanMan
ramyb wrote:I don't normally feel the need to respond to you, but there is a clear methodology represented in the design. I included a representation of Rosalind Franklin's xray crystallography experiment, basic double helix models, and then the up close molecular structure of the individual elements and base pairing. And considering that dancing flasks, arbitrary math equations and birds sitting on people's heads are all considered scientific method in this derby, I'd say I put in a pretty strong effort to make this on topic. And considering woot essentially said that putting a beaker on any shirt would make it on topic, I'd say that any tie to science of any sort should make things on topic this week. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assue you didn't recognize the elements in the design, rather than just choosing to ignore them.


They all just haters! Keep doing your thing, it's fantastic.

sexylittlerobot


quality posts: 14 Private Messages sexylittlerobot
Darquis wrote:Put your comment back, it was good!


haha; okay. I just hate being really pedantic but I fell in love with genetics in 8th grade so I will ramble..

mrwednesday wrote:
And to use this as a tie in to the scientific method is pretty weak anyway since rarely is the accepted method of science "steal someone else's data and use it to scoop their research."


isn't this how Watson and Crick came up with DNA's structure - stealing her pictures? As well as Chargraff's ideas... I'm glad you also pointed out that you couldn't see her picture in the design (I couldn't either). I think I recall reading that you work with genetics as well so I figured you'd catch that. I honestly would think that was pretty otterific(referencing Franklin, who died young and didn't receive the Nobel..) and could see that working into the scientific method theme if there were other references to the milestones of DNA discovery...like the Hershey/Chase experiments, Griffith and Avery....you could even go as far back as to the time when they separated the study of chromosomes from embryology - and of course, the great Mendel. All of those moments required use of the scientific method. :\ This is a really difficult theme...

edit: after staring at it for a while though; I did see Dr. Franklin's design wayyyy in the background which I found unfortunate as I still wish she had received more recognition during her (short) lifetime so I always think of her photograph as something that should be very prominent.

acidtwix


quality posts: 0 Private Messages acidtwix
AdderXYU wrote:I didn't realize DNA was discovered in 2009. But this entry does highlight a very important issue: that your work is almost never something relevant to themes. This doesn't evoke any story of 2009. It's just a double helix that you attached to some other story that somehow involved DNA. And right now, it's off theme again because DNA is part of science, but not the scientific method. It is tenuous at best. Which would be an excellent screenname for you if Ramyb ever gets rightfully banned.


adder get a life man, i don't ever really post on here, but after seeing all of your flaming i wanted to say something. this shirt is pretty cool, and i'm pretty sure i'm not going to care if it's on-topic or off-topic when i wear it. the design is cool period.

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
rabidwooter wrote:"This week, show us your take on the Scientific Method."

That implies your own opinion or artistic interpretation. If this gets rejected, almost all other submissions must also get rejected.

So far I see flying caterpillars, smiling beakers, and bacteria with facial expressions. So all those cutesy submissions are all hard science? LMAO, sure thing, whatever you say...


The scientific method (if you went to school) is a method of evaluating data. So anything evaluating data is on topic. That could be someone doing an experiment on bacteria, or it could be a chicken at a chalkboard trying to make a formula to get across the road. It is not a beaker. Or a DNA strand. Or just one sciencey element. This isn't about pure scientific fact. It's about following the rules. And I'd say the vast majority haven't done so.

hewette


quality posts: 0 Private Messages hewette
NameyMcName wrote:I think you would need to change how the strands cross over each other to represent the crystallography Rosalind Franklin did. She got x-rays of A- and B-DNA structures. The main strand here looks left-handed to me, which would make it Z-DNA. I'm not a scientist, though, so I could be wrong.


You are in fact correct, it's a left-handed helix but it's not even Z DNA, though, it's a mirror image of B DNA... not that anybody cares...

"|" psalmtree "|"

freckledphoebe


quality posts: 0 Private Messages freckledphoebe
Re: Double Helix


How is this in the fog? Haven't we seen this before? I didn't think you could reenter old designs.

sKarlos


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sKarlos
kylemittskus wrote:I could swear that we've seen at least 2 DNA shirts here before? TGentry did one (about 300x better than this) and the 1988: The Human Genome Project...

Oh, originality.



This is the reason I am not voting for this shirt. I would probably consider buying it, but it is unfair because we have already seen similar designs.

tedschopf


quality posts: 3 Private Messages tedschopf
Re: Double Helix


Woot won't reject the shirt. Woot rarely rejects shirts that are in the fog. And you have to look at this economically. If people vote for it, then they want the shirt. Is it in Woot's best interest to reject a shirt that a lot of people want? No, since if this wins they will sell a lot more of it since people want it because they voted for it.

mgarns


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mgarns
Re: Double Helix


Cool t shirt but you need do more research into DNA. The standard Beta form of DNA has a right hand twist yours is a left hand twist. If you are trying to represent zDNA the standard model would not fit as the major and minor grooves look completely different due to changes in Hydrogen bonding

palookaboy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages palookaboy

1) I doesn't show any kind of method. It's just sciencey imagery. It's like if the theme was Recipes or Cooking, and the shirt just showed a single ingredient (a bell pepper) or just a finished product (a plate of spaghetti). That doesn't qualify as Cooking or Recipes. It qualifies as food.

DNA is not representative of the Scientific Method.

2) That he simply resubbed a shirt he already tried to peddle earlier shows laziness, greed and a lack of respect for the spirit of the competition. Why not resub every other failed-to-win-in-another-derby design he ever created that tangentially (at best) fits the theme? Flood the competition with your own entries to increase your chances of winning; other designers be damned!

OH, but don't listen to me. I'm clearly just jealous of ramy's immutable talent.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola

Adder, you bring beating a dead horse to a whole new level. Open a window, walk outside, get laid, whatever. You can make your point in one or two posts, the extent that you go shows how weak your arguing is.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
palookaboy wrote:1) I doesn't show any kind of method. It's just sciencey imagery. It's like if the theme was Recipes or Cooking, and the shirt just showed a single ingredient (a bell pepper) or just a finished product (a plate of spaghetti). That doesn't qualify as Cooking or Recipes. It qualifies as food.

To be fair, the same thing could be said of all the designs with test tubes in them this week. We just don't see people carrying on and on and on about it to them.

ChefRAZ


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ChefRAZ
tedschopf wrote:Woot won't reject the shirt. Woot rarely rejects shirts that are in the fog. And you have to look at this economically. If people vote for it, then they want the shirt. Is it in Woot's best interest to reject a shirt that a lot of people want? No, since if this wins they will sell a lot more of it since people want it because they voted for it.


you musta missed last week.

ChefRAZ


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ChefRAZ
mikenytola wrote:To be fair, the same thing could be said of all the designs with test tubes in them this week. We just don't see people carrying on and on and on about it to them.

it's quite different when your in the fog, as said many times by other people. but you don't care about that do you. because you've beeen here long enough to know that.you just want to have something to say.you don't look smarter to others for saying it,in fact the exact opposite.

vorteks


quality posts: 0 Private Messages vorteks
Re: Double Helix


Very cool. It seems to me that it *may* be off theme (yes, it's science-y, but is it about the scientific process?). But I've voted for it anyway, because I would definitely wear it. I'd like to have some more non-cartoonie Woot! shirts.

jel2301


quality posts: 30 Private Messages jel2301
acidtwix wrote:adder get a life man, i don't ever really post on here, but after seeing all of your flaming i wanted to say something. this shirt is pretty cool, and i'm pretty sure i'm not going to care if it's on-topic or off-topic when i wear it. the design is cool period.


So the only criterion that should be used to decide if a design should be printed is if it's cool?

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
mgarns wrote:Cool t shirt but you need do more research into DNA. The standard Beta form of DNA has a right hand twist yours is a left hand twist. If you are trying to represent zDNA the standard model would not fit as the major and minor grooves look completely different due to changes in Hydrogen bonding


When you look at the design, which of these two configurations do you visualize?


I realized that there is an ambiguity in the design in this regard, so I thought perhaps we were seeing two different things.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
ChefRAZ wrote:it's quite different when your in the fog, as said many times by other people. but you don't care about that do you. because you've beeen here long enough to know that.you just want to have something to say.you don't look smarter to others for saying it,in fact the exact opposite.

That's funny, "Test Tube Baby" is in the fog, is it not? Do you see people carrying on and on over there? Who's the one here trying to look smarter than they are and just wants something to say? Nice try though. k thx boi

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
vorteks wrote:Very cool. It seems to me that it *may* be off theme (yes, it's science-y, but is it about the scientific process?). But I've voted for it anyway, because I would definitely wear it. I'd like to have some more non-cartoonie Woot! shirts.


Thanks for the vote, and I'm glad you like the design. I wanted to try one more time though to explain why I think this design is on topic, as well as offer some thoughts about the theme in general. I know this won't stop any arguing (in fact, I am sure it will only serve to fuel the fire), but I will try my best to stay out of it as much as possible after this. I think people are getting stuck on the fact that this isn't much changed from the original, but please keep in mind that the original design was about scientific discovery in the first place. The changes that I made were to broaden the scope of the shirt to be about the study of DNA in general, which is why I added the specific molecular structures, as well as the representation of xray crystallography, which was a specific experiment in the study of DNA.

That said, the theme this week is "The Scientific Method." It is difficult for people to differentiate between this and "experimenting." Although experiments fall under the greater category of scientific method, that's not what the topic is. Designs shouldn't need to show the experimental process to be on topic. The scientific method encompasses all parts of the process: question, hypothesis, testing, results, conclusion, etc. Designs can include any one or all of these aspects. For example, tgentry's donut design is showing results of some sort. There is no question or hypothesis or experiment or anything involved, just a zoom in on a donut. Spiritgreen's design is showing the testing portion, without anything else. Very few designs show all of the parts of the scientific method, most simply choose one and run with it. And while I still believe that there are many off topic entries (simple math and test tubes=/scientific method), woot even expressed that they intend to be lenient with this theme in the writeup, since they essentially said they will take anything with a beaker on it.

The analogy was made to woot doing a derby about cooking. In that case, designs could include people washing vegetables, cutting meats, throwing things over a fire, heating something in the microwave, etc., but eating is not part of the process of cooking. With themes like this, the entire scope has to be considered when viewing entries. In this case, the theme extends beyond what most people are thinking about. It's possible that the way I interpreted the theme was not woot's intention, but I'd argue that they chose the wrong name and description for the theme if they weren't looking to allow such a broad range of designs.

I don't think that saying this design is on topic is even a stretch in any way. There's a lot going on in the design, and I encourage anyone who doubts that it is on topic to take a closer look and pick out the individual elements of the design. The design shows a progression of thought, and results of on experiment leading to another. I never said that I made changes so drastic that nobody would recognize the original, only that the design is on topic. I think it's more wearable, more generally relevant, and easier to understand thematically than the original with the changes that I made, but comparing small thumbnails of this to the original won't yield you anything in terms of understanding where I tried to go with the design. Subtle changes can be effective in changing the idea behind a design, but not if they are dismissed.

I'm sorry to respond specifically to your post, but I wanted to make this statement in general. A lot of people say that they don't care if this is on topic, but I do and I believe that it is.

tedschopf


quality posts: 3 Private Messages tedschopf
jel2301 wrote:So the only criterion that should be used to decide if a design should be printed is if it's cool?


Sounds good to me.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
mikenytola wrote:Adder, you bring beating a dead horse to a whole new level. Open a window, walk outside, get laid, whatever. You can make your point in one or two posts, the extent that you go shows how weak your arguing is.


And attacking the poster rather than his points clearly make yours very strong.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
mikenytola wrote:To be fair, the same thing could be said of all the designs with test tubes in them this week. We just don't see people carrying on and on and on about it to them.


Ok, so Ramy gets more attention than most, and some people are calling out other shirts. It doesn't mean the critiques are more or less valid

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
Darquis wrote:And attacking the poster rather than his points clearly make yours very strong.

I actually made some points on how I did not think much changed in this design and didn't necessarily disagree with his points, but the woot mod was being l@me and delete happy. I even mentioned MrWed and how he brought up a good point. He's somebody I have had words with many times and I was agreeing with what he said. I even said that this should probably be rejected.

So I'm not quite sure where you are going with this one, other than jumping to conclusions. Adder made his points, I'm just saying, move on already. His bloated posts and constant repetition is getting very old and has for a very long time now. Thus he's beating a dead horse above and beyond. This makes his "arguing" weak. I did not say his "argument" was weak. There is a difference.

NameyMcName


quality posts: 10 Private Messages NameyMcName
ramyb wrote:When you look at the design, which of these two configurations do you visualize?


I realized that there is an ambiguity in the design in this regard, so I thought perhaps we were seeing two different things.

I also mentioned earlier that it looked like the left-handed form you show there on the right. If you look at the first place the two strands cross over on the bottom, you can see shading under the one that goes from bottom right to upper left, making it look like it goes over the top.

sstrunks5555


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sstrunks5555
mjc613 wrote:Very close to a shirt woot already printed. It's also off-topic. To be fair, there are other entries that are merely science-related, instead of scientific-method related, that woot has not rejected. But it's still Friday afternoon.

Ramyb, you already have something in this derby that IS on topic and good artwork imo. Why are you throwing in something that is a rework?


Yeah, that's the shirt I thought of immediately.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
NameyMcName wrote:I also mentioned earlier that it looked like the left-handed form you show there on the right. If you look at the first place the two strands cross over on the bottom, you can see shading under the one that goes from bottom right to upper left, making it look like it goes over the top.


I didn't notice what you were talking about until you pointed it out, and can understand the confusion now. What you are actually seeing is the overlap of one of the ring structures with the double helix, rather than shading. The DNA is supposed to be entirely white with no shading on it, but overlaps in several places with the molecular structures that I drew. The design consists of a series of overlapping elements that are supposed to interact with each other in various ways using several shades of blue, but in this case I can see why you would think it was intended to be shading.

Normscoffee


quality posts: 23 Private Messages Normscoffee
Re: Double Helix


Ramy said he reworked the shirt in his first comment and then admitted it was a direct resub. Why would he lie about reworking a shirt, unless he knew he was breaking the rules.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
Normscoffee wrote:Ramy said he reworked the shirt in his first comment and then admitted it was a direct resub. Why would he lie about reworking a shirt, unless he knew he was breaking the rules.


I think resubs are actually allowed, but I am really not invested enough to research the issue

Normscoffee


quality posts: 23 Private Messages Normscoffee
Darquis wrote:I think resubs are actually allowed, but I am really not invested enough to research the issue


I don't think they are but that still doesn't answer why Ramy would lie about making changes to the shirt.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

Darquis wrote:I think resubs are actually allowed, but I am really not invested enough to research the issue


I've had a design rejected for "no resubs" before. I think the general rule of thumb is resubs are allowed if you've made a substantial change to the design either conceptually or visually that makes it a "different" design. That's somewhat objective, but they are usually pretty strict about it (most get rejected, one or two have slipped through the cracks).

thurdl01


quality posts: 11 Private Messages thurdl01
tgentry wrote:I've had a design rejected for "no resubs" before. I think the general rule of thumb is resubs are allowed if you've made a substantial change to the design either conceptually or visually that makes it a "different" design. That's somewhat objective, but they are usually pretty strict about it (most get rejected, one or two have slipped through the cracks).


But with this having now survived two rounds of rejections, it would appear that, once again, different rules apply to Ramy as to anyone else.

tgentry


quality posts: 111 Private Messages tgentry

Staff

thurdl01 wrote:But with this having now survived two rounds of rejections, it would appear that, once again, different rules apply to Ramy as to anyone else.


From what I understand they typically wait until Mondays to make rejections in the fog so they can discuss it as a group. Perhaps they think there's enough changes to the design to keep it in, but it not getting rejected during the weekend has little to do with it I think.

HalfWheat


quality posts: 18 Private Messages HalfWheat
Normscoffee wrote:I don't think they are but that still doesn't answer why Ramy would lie about making changes to the shirt.


Resubs have been allowed, but Woot has rejected resubs if there haven't been significant changes. Of course, "significant" can be a moving target, so it's hard to say if something will be rejected or not based on a resub.

ramyb


quality posts: 20 Private Messages ramyb
Normscoffee wrote:I don't think they are but that still doesn't answer why Ramy would lie about making changes to the shirt.


It's not a direct resub. I outlined the specific changes that I made, there was no lying involved. The comment that I made is that the significance of the changes is a moot point because the design was rejected in its original derby, and woot has set a precedent for allowing resubmissions of shirts regardless of edits being made or not in that situation in the past. In fact, a direct resub went on to win in the two derby. Therefore, I thought it was a point not worth arguing. The original design is still online for everyone who wants to compare, you can compare the two and see the changes. But significant changes or not, it was rejected in its original derby so it should be fair game.

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
thurdl01 wrote:But with this having now survived two rounds of rejections, it would appear that, once again, different rules apply to Ramy as to anyone else.


Shirts have been reje4cted much later than this in the past - last Wednesday, for example. Monday's usually a pretty big day for them.

bmjayne


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bmjayne

This is pretty neat! I really like all the layers in this design. It feels like I'm moving through an artistic virtual timeline of DNA research as the understanding of it becomes more and more clear (and more and more prominent in the design). I also like how the fragments of molecules and strands correlate to the process of putting the pieces together, as in the process of discovery.

Great job! If it makes it through rejection and voting (and these relentless comments! Sheesh!) I'm in for one!

youngfire635


quality posts: 0 Private Messages youngfire635
Re: Double Helix


Don't listen to any of the haters, Ramy. The topic could be fecal matter and they'd still say you laid a turd.

No matter what you do there are always going to be those jerks who can't apprieciate it and they all just need to shut up. If you don't like the art, don't vote as always. You don't have to bash it or pick it apart just to hate on it.

Drakxxx


quality posts: 16 Private Messages Drakxxx
Re: Double Helix


For what it's worth, the design I made for the blue contest was rejected on the first day for being off theme, and I re-entered that into the band names contest later on, with no changes, and they didn't reject it.


CapSea


quality posts: 54 Private Messages CapSea
Darquis wrote:Ok, so Ramy gets more attention than most, and some people are calling out other shirts. It doesn't mean the critiques are more or less valid


Yes and no. The willingness to call out only one person makes it look to all those not invested like a personal attack. Then they get invested an the opposite side. It is also the reason that Woot does not listen to them anymore - because by only attacking one artist (about which I'm not going to take sides on), the group makes it look like they are not really fighting for change, but rather because of personal hate/distaste.

I'm of the opinion that if you call out one person, you really need to call out all of them. Maybe not as angrily, but if you are actually trying to get the site itself to change, picking on one person (right or wrong) won't affect anything.

Contero


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Contero
Re: Double Helix


This shirt looks amazing and I look forward to buying it.

Haters gonna hate.

mgarns


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mgarns
ramyb wrote:When you look at the design, which of these two configurations do you visualize?


I realized that there is an ambiguity in the design in this regard, so I thought perhaps we were seeing two different things.


I looked closer and I still visualize the configuration on the right,which would be left handed DNA. If you see it the other way that would make sense but the way its drawn now just looks left handed to me. If it was flipped I would buy it in a heartbeat,it would be an an otterific lab shirt!

dreamwootseeker


quality posts: 2 Private Messages dreamwootseeker

Off topic, with a classic RamyGlow. This has #1 winner written all over it!!

Go Ramy!!!

mjc613


quality posts: 48 Private Messages mjc613
kylemittskus wrote:I could swear that we've seen at least 2 DNA shirts here before? TGentry did one (about 300x better than this) and the 1988: The Human Genome Project...

Oh, originality.


�To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

paigeg


quality posts: 7 Private Messages paigeg
mjc613 wrote:�To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.


To actually try to publish it and make money is not a crime, nor even particulary unethical. However, it is derivative, lazy, and a crying shame for anyone with talent, to waste it so. Makes me sad.

mrwednesday


quality posts: 12 Private Messages mrwednesday
mjc613 wrote:�To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.


This quote is seriously lacking reality and sense. Any research where ideas or techniques aren't thoroughly and properly cited and credited is met with very dire consequences.

swammi1203


quality posts: 0 Private Messages swammi1203
Re: Double Helix


After the past two derbies where Ramyb was the center of attention, I think I can finally understand why there is such support for Ramyb. There are two reasons:

1. His shirts are generic enough to appeal to a wider range of buyers, while interesting enough to rise, even slightly, above the typical generic design.

2. Many of his detractors, one in particular, are very outspoken in a very impolite and angry manner. This serves to offend many in the woot community and galvanize support for Ramyb. However, when Ramyb chooses to respond, he shows both levelheadedness and restraint- both of which are commendable.

Now, while I have some qualms about the lack of originality in most of his designs, the same could be said about the vast majority of designs submitted to derbies. Fortunately, many quirky shirts to make it to print. Sadly, as both Woot! and shirt.woot! have become more popular, the tyranny of the majority becomes a greater and greater issue. Thankfully Woot! combats this, if only to some degree, with the editor's choice, but most of the shirts submitted in the derbies are still selected via popular vote.

I am neither a Ramyb supporter or detractor, but I do find it difficult to become a detractor as I have no desire to be lumped in with some of his more, to put it lightly, outspoken critics. Therefore, while I hope that Ramyb works towards more and more original designs, I understand that he fills an arguably necessary, however undesirable it may be to some, niche.

srm8ib4


quality posts: 5 Private Messages srm8ib4
swammi1203 wrote:After the past two derbies where Ramyb was the center of attention, I think I can finally understand why there is such support for Ramyb. There are two reasons:

1. His shirts are generic enough to appeal to a wider range of buyers, while interesting enough to rise, even slightly, above the typical generic design.

2. Many of his detractors, one in particular, are very outspoken in a very impolite and angry manner. This serves to offend many in the woot community and galvanize support for Ramyb. However, when Ramyb chooses to respond, he shows both levelheadedness and restraint- both of which are commendable.

Now, while I have some qualms about the lack of originality in most of his designs, the same could be said about the vast majority of designs submitted to derbies. Fortunately, many quirky shirts to make it to print. Sadly, as both Woot! and shirt.woot! have become more popular, the tyranny of the majority becomes a greater and greater issue. Thankfully Woot! combats this, if only to some degree, with the editor's choice, but most of the shirts submitted in the derbies are still selected via popular vote.

I am neither a Ramyb supporter or detractor, but I do find it difficult to become a detractor as I have no desire to be lumped in with some of his more, to put it lightly, outspoken critics. Therefore, while I hope that Ramyb works towards more and more original designs, I understand that he fills an arguably necessary, however undesirable it may be to some, niche.


Yep, this basically summarizes everything.

mikenytola


quality posts: 1 Private Messages mikenytola
CapSea wrote:Yes and no. The willingness to call out only one person makes it look to all those not invested like a personal attack. Then they get invested an the opposite side. It is also the reason that Woot does not listen to them anymore - because by only attacking one artist (about which I'm not going to take sides on), the group makes it look like they are not really fighting for change, but rather because of personal hate/distaste.

I'm of the opinion that if you call out one person, you really need to call out all of them. Maybe not as angrily, but if you are actually trying to get the site itself to change, picking on one person (right or wrong) won't affect anything.

Well said, couldn't agree with you more.

chumpmagic


quality posts: 9 Private Messages chumpmagic
swammi1203 wrote:After the past two derbies where Ramyb was the center of attention, I think I can finally understand why there is such support for Ramyb. There are two reasons:

1. His shirts are generic enough to appeal to a wider range of buyers, while interesting enough to rise, even slightly, above the typical generic design.

2. Many of his detractors, one in particular, are very outspoken in a very impolite and angry manner. This serves to offend many in the woot community and galvanize support for Ramyb. However, when Ramyb chooses to respond, he shows both levelheadedness and restraint- both of which are commendable.

Now, while I have some qualms about the lack of originality in most of his designs, the same could be said about the vast majority of designs submitted to derbies. Fortunately, many quirky shirts to make it to print. Sadly, as both Woot! and shirt.woot! have become more popular, the tyranny of the majority becomes a greater and greater issue. Thankfully Woot! combats this, if only to some degree, with the editor's choice, but most of the shirts submitted in the derbies are still selected via popular vote.

I am neither a Ramyb supporter or detractor, but I do find it difficult to become a detractor as I have no desire to be lumped in with some of his more, to put it lightly, outspoken critics. Therefore, while I hope that Ramyb works towards more and more original designs, I understand that he fills an arguably necessary, however undesirable it may be to some, niche.


The wise man/woman has spoken. Nothing more to see here people. Move along...


Hammylink


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Hammylink
Darquis wrote:Haha I just went and commented on his design (and Patrickspens and a couple others) that were glaringly off topic (of the ones that I went to look at - I certainly didn't look at all of them). People said they're frustrated when Ramy (or other artists) get singled out, so I'm trying to be consistent in my "how does this fit the topic"


I would feel bad for tattling on 15 different designs, but it's just the same as freshman biology. People assume that the scientific method is like some sort of pledge of allegiance and not a guide for all types of valid experimentation.

I don't really care that Ramy did a resubmit, but he did say he reworked it... If there is no change, there is no incorporation of anything that isn't already there which is pretty much a collage of DNA representations at various levels of complexity. There's no process or discernable timeline in this. If you want to submit DNA as art, take it to Threadless.

______________________________________________

frik


quality posts: 1 Private Messages frik
Re: Double Helix


seeing this shirt -
I'm now I guess in the anti-ramyb camp. it just follows the pattern he has set if you read through his history here at woot.

No. Yes.

Ryuzaki


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Ryuzaki
Re: Double Helix


I'd just like to point out that if I buy a derby shirt, in a week when I finally get to wear it, no one is going to know what derby it was from, what the rules were, and if it was "on topic" or not. If they do, then they hang out at this site more than most parents on Facebook.

Aside from who created the shirt or if it is on topic (because that is shirt.woot!'s problem), I have to ask myself this question: "Do I like it?".

And the answer here is yes.

Earlysong


quality posts: 21 Private Messages Earlysong
frik wrote:seeing this shirt -
I'm now I guess in the anti-ramyb camp. it just follows the pattern he has set if you read through his history here at woot.


Ehhhh. I don't think this is a knock-off of someone else's work, but I don't agree that it's on topic. I read his explanation, but I still don't think it has anything to do with the scientific method. Scientific discovery? Yes. The method itself? Not so much.

Then again not many people are really on topic.

I love this website! ^^

AdderXYU


quality posts: 38 Private Messages AdderXYU
Ryuzaki wrote:I'd just like to point out that if I buy a derby shirt, in a week when I finally get to wear it, no one is going to know what derby it was from, what the rules were, and if it was "on topic" or not. If they do, then they hang out at this site more than most parents on Facebook.

Aside from who created the shirt or if it is on topic (because that is shirt.woot!'s problem), I have to ask myself this question: "Do I like it?".

And the answer here is yes.


Doesn't matter.

That is fine and good for BUYING a shirt, though it doesn't make the design very good. But this is a contest for making a shirt based on a theme. It does not matter what the shirt is if it does not follow those rules. That is all that matters in the derby... not if it's still good... if it is on topic, and follows rules. I'd argue it should be good AS WELL AS on theme and following rules, but woot has proven not to care about quality, so they need to at least care about the rules. If woot wanted any old shirt, they would not have derbies. They want people to show off their ability. Both in art and creative interpretation of a theme. This arguably doesn't do either, but most certainly doesn't do the latter.

BaldBob007


quality posts: 1 Private Messages BaldBob007
AdderXYU wrote:Doesn't matter.

That is fine and good for BUYING a shirt, though it doesn't make the design very good. But this is a contest for making a shirt based on a theme. It does not matter what the shirt is if it does not follow those rules. That is all that matters in the derby... not if it's still good... if it is on topic, and follows rules. I'd argue it should be good AS WELL AS on theme and following rules, but woot has proven not to care about quality, so they need to at least care about the rules. If woot wanted any old shirt, they would not have derbies. They want people to show off their ability. Both in art and creative interpretation of a theme. This arguably doesn't do either, but most certainly doesn't do the latter.


^Agreed. Besides the above points, I've never really understood why this type of design concept does so well here. I mean, I thought shirt.woot was supposed to be about a "unique" design, one that can only be found here. If you really want something like this (simple design element placed on side with other simple filler design elements), why wait until the end of the derby, then order and wait for the shipping? You could just go to {insert name of favorite hometown department store} and get it now!!!

Darquis


quality posts: 27 Private Messages Darquis
Ryuzaki wrote:I'd just like to point out that if I buy a derby shirt, in a week when I finally get to wear it, no one is going to know what derby it was from, what the rules were, and if it was "on topic" or not. If they do, then they hang out at this site more than most parents on Facebook.

Aside from who created the shirt or if it is on topic (because that is shirt.woot!'s problem), I have to ask myself this question: "Do I like it?".

And the answer here is yes.


And really, if you want to BUY a shirt based on "I like it" that's fine, personal taste and all.

But if you're voting for it based on "I like it" even though you admit it might not be on theme (or that you don't care that it's on theme) then why do we bother having derbies? Why not just have cuteanimalOctober and have every weekend the cutest animals that can get some votes print?

snarkygal


quality posts: 5 Private Messages snarkygal
Re: Double Helix


My only complaint about this entry is that it is a resub and to my eyes, it is not significantly different. Ramy says he redid it, but I see no significant changes from his original entry from the Events of 2009 Derby.


So, once again, Woot is bending the rules for Ramy unless this is rejected at the last minute.

Ryuzaki


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Ryuzaki
Re: Double Helix


I can see your point. When it comes to a contest, an entry should play by the rules or be removed. However, you must keep in mind that underneath it all, the whole goal of even having a derby is to sell shirts. If a design isn't aesthetically pleasing, it isn't going to sell. And while I agree with you that for fairness purposes this shirt does not meet the proper criteria and according to the rules, should be removed, I refuse to vote for a shirt design that meets the criteria that I wouldn't buy over a design that I will, even if it is not on topic.

yankeebird


quality posts: 7 Private Messages yankeebird
Ryuzaki wrote:I can see your point. When it comes to a contest, an entry should play by the rules or be removed. However, you must keep in mind that underneath it all, the whole goal of even having a derby is to sell shirts. If a design isn't aesthetically pleasing, it isn't going to sell. And while I agree with you that for fairness purposes this shirt does not meet the proper criteria and according to the rules, should be removed, I refuse to vote for a shirt design that meets the criteria that I wouldn't buy over a design that I will, even if it is not on topic.


You do have the option of voting for neither, which is really the correct thing to do in that situation.

jkcom


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jkcom
Re: Double Helix


I think that the real problem here, and embarrassingly i don't think anyone else noted it, is that the double helix is backward. all relevant helices are right handed. You made a design of Z-DNA, which is not only exceedingly rarely found in the cell, but when it is found, it's significance is unknown.

Just a thought.

jcollin5


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jcollin5
ramyb wrote:When you look at the design, which of these two configurations do you visualize?


I realized that there is an ambiguity in the design in this regard, so I thought perhaps we were seeing two different things.



I definitely see the one on the right for reasons noted before me but also because the strand on the left (red) is bigger at the very top and appears to come out more so than the strand on the right (green). You can't see this in the pictures you colored but you have to go back to the original to see what I'm talking about. I tried, but I really don't understand how you could see the right strand being on top of the left strand.

ItsBaxter


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ItsBaxter
jkcom wrote:I think that the real problem here, and embarrassingly i don't think anyone else noted it, is that the double helix is backward. all relevant helices are right handed. You made a design of Z-DNA, which is not only exceedingly rarely found in the cell, but when it is found, it's significance is unknown.

Just a thought.


I noticed this. Since I am a biologist a DNA shirt would normaly catch my interest but I wouldn't dare wearing a shirt that has the helix direction backwards.

PS. It's not even Z-DNA. Sure Z-DNA has a left hand helix but it's also pretty seriously deformed.

Cantatus


quality posts: 6 Private Messages Cantatus
swammi1203 wrote:After the past two derbies where Ramyb was the center of attention, I think I can finally understand why there is such support for Ramyb. There are two reasons:

1. His shirts are generic enough to appeal to a wider range of buyers, while interesting enough to rise, even slightly, above the typical generic design.

2. Many of his detractors, one in particular, are very outspoken in a very impolite and angry manner. This serves to offend many in the woot community and galvanize support for Ramyb. However, when Ramyb chooses to respond, he shows both levelheadedness and restraint- both of which are commendable.

Now, while I have some qualms about the lack of originality in most of his designs, the same could be said about the vast majority of designs submitted to derbies. Fortunately, many quirky shirts to make it to print. Sadly, as both Woot! and shirt.woot! have become more popular, the tyranny of the majority becomes a greater and greater issue. Thankfully Woot! combats this, if only to some degree, with the editor's choice, but most of the shirts submitted in the derbies are still selected via popular vote.

I am neither a Ramyb supporter or detractor, but I do find it difficult to become a detractor as I have no desire to be lumped in with some of his more, to put it lightly, outspoken critics. Therefore, while I hope that Ramyb works towards more and more original designs, I understand that he fills an arguably necessary, however undesirable it may be to some, niche.


Great, great post. I think you've summarized this whole thing very elegantly.

wootfast


quality posts: 3 Private Messages wootfast

Staff

Re: Double Helix


Hexagons make me think of Civ 5!

swammi1203


quality posts: 0 Private Messages swammi1203
Cantatus wrote:Great, great post. I think you've summarized this whole thing very elegantly.


I prefer to win arguments by being so thorough and well-spoken that it's nigh impossible to be anything other that persuaded. Also, since there is such division over Ramyb, I like to take a more moderate approach, cautioning both sides to be more reasonable, and thus more effectively argue their cases.

dstauss


quality posts: 1 Private Messages dstauss
Re: Double Helix


Me thinks some people have their underthings in a bunch and are just mad that Ramy's designs are better than theirs! Oh, what do you mean you didn't submit a design? Yeah, in that case you need to shut up, untwist your stuff, and submit something better before complaining. Lousy whiners....

That being said, if you don't like someones design, there's no need to comment, just don't vote for it. That's the way it is designed.

sittle


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sittle
wootfast wrote:Hexagons make me think of Civ 5!


Makes me wonder.. how is the design related to "the scientific method"?? Hmmmm ....?

PikaTzeu


quality posts: 0 Private Messages PikaTzeu
Re: Double Helix


Ugh, I wanted this shirt so badly. It might not have related that well to the topic but it was just so stunning to look at. Hope this gets reentered in a later derby or wins the Double Take.

Nice work ramyb.

thurdl01


quality posts: 11 Private Messages thurdl01
PikaTzeu wrote:Ugh, I wanted this shirt so badly. It might not have related that well to the topic but it was just so stunning to look at. Hope this gets reentered in a later derby or wins the Double Take.

Nice work ramyb.


It's lost two derbies now. I think it's had enough chances.

matt5784


quality posts: 0 Private Messages matt5784
thurdl01 wrote:It's lost two derbies now. I think it's had enough chances.


It was rejected from one, so that doesn't really count as a loss... it was never in contention. That is also why it doesn't count as a resub.

pedechumbo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pedechumbo
Re: Double Helix


Im new to this site and not sure how everything works. But is there any way to get this shirt? I think its really badass.

leinadlc


quality posts: 0 Private Messages leinadlc
Re: Double Helix


Does anyone know where I can buy this shirt right now.

More Derby Entries

By date:

By rank:

Thumbnail